Israel rejects U.S. call for 1967 borders

[chuckd]

with everything that has happened by now you would have to be pretty slow

not to realise Obama is actively complicit in setting Israel up for something

I never expected this kind of behaviour from USA

That's why I just cannot fathom the likes of Jingthing being so hopelessly devoted to

Obama when you see what he is allowing to happen to Israel?

Obama's actions are making many of us wary and angry. ALL of us are not proud of what he is doing.

Jimmy Carter lost Iran. Obama may well lose the rest of the Middle East.

[midas]

with everything that has happened by now you would have to be pretty slow

not to realise Obama is actively complicit in setting Israel up for something

I never expected this kind of behaviour from USA

That's why I just cannot fathom the likes of Jingthing being so hopelessly devoted to

Obama when you see what he is allowing to happen to Israel?

Obama's actions are making many of us wary and angry. ALL of us are not proud of what he is doing.

Jimmy Carter lost Iran. Obama may well lose the rest of the Middle East.

the only rational explanation for all this is that it is part of something

much much bigger although I couldn't define what that " something " is exactly

all I know is I have this gut feeling that something nasty is going to happen in that region

before this summer is through

Edited May 26, 2011 by midas

[Ulysses G.]

I agree that Obama is no true friend of Israel. He is supporting them because he wants to be reelected, but will stab them in the back if he feels that he can get away with it. He is a politically correct appeaser of radical Muslims at heart.

However, all anyone has to do is watch the video of Netanyahu's recent speech in front of Congress and the 29 standing ovations that he got from both Democrats and Republicans to see what most Americans think of Obama's policies in the Middle East.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

all I know is I have this gut feeling that something nasty is going to happen in that region

before this summer is through

I concur. The forces of radical Islamic backwardness and hatred are going to try to take advantage of the so-called Arab spring.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[powderpuff]

So with the UN etc concerning "these Arabs" we have the carrot & the stick. Yet the Islamists on this board say that over 100 countries are prepared to give "these Arabs" their own state despite "these Arabs" having done nothing to meet the conditions set out by the major parties.

Kind of reminds me of the classic definition of insanity.

Liberalism is form of mental retardation.

[samurai]

I guess the difference is that I support the USA.

I am not an Israeli, nor a Palestinian. I will support the best solution in the region with regards to the world at large, but I do not blindly follow either of the two factions 100%. No one faction can possibly be 100% in the right, in my opinion.

I support the USA also. No difference there. However, Israel has been willing to make peace since the troubles began and the Palestinian Arabs have not. In my opinion, that makes the Israelis a lot closer to right than the Arabs who started the war in the first place and refuse to compromise to stop it.

Oh, I might personally agree that the Israelis are "closer to right," but in the US' interests, in the interests of the world, of Israel, and of the Palestinians, a solution must be found. And no matter how you look at it, as the more powerful of the factions, it is inherent upon Israel to make the moves--with one caveat. That caveat is the Palestinians recognizing Israel and disavowing violence. Once they do that, then Israel has to be the prime mover.

While not a totally accurate analogy, but when blacks in the US started demonstrating for civil rights, they didn't have the power to actually change things. It took a white Congress and a white president to see the light and legislate laws to protect civil rights. They had the power, not the black citizens, and thankfully they finally acted on it, erasing a shameful legacy in our history. In the same way, Palestinians can protest all they want, but unless the power broker Israel does something about it, there will be no solution.

The attempt to use the struggle of afro americans in some states for their civil rights is not appropriate. An important part of the journey to rights came in WWII. People who had never encountered an afro american, or an asian american for that matter, finally met them. The people that would go on to leadership positions in industry and government knew of minority groups that served in the US and Commonwealth forces. It was Eisenhower that had afro American soldiers integrate with previously exclusive white units during the Battle of the Bulge. When the Americans entered the concentration camps it left an indelible imprint upon the troops and on the command officers. Read the statements of the American generals. It was a defining moment that hammered home of what the war was about: It was good versus evil, and this changed alot of people that harboured prejudice. Ever wonder why most WWII veterans that saw action might be conservative on the outside but had some very progressive views? All of the US's social advancements in the 1950's and 1960's came courtesy of that generation. President Truman's order to integrate the military in 1948 was the turning point for civil rights as it finally recognized afro americans and provided opportunities to these people, albeit at a slow pace. Military service was a powerful tool for integration and therein lies the reason while your analogy fails. The arabs of the area called Palestine do not have a history or a legacy of public service or collectivism. There has never been a defining event to shift arab views of "self" to that of "community". Israel might be called right wing by some but it is a socially democratic state with a legacy that stems from worker co-operatives and a tradition of public service. The notion of sacrifice created modern Israel. The Palestinian arabs do not have a history of taking care of themselves, its always been the UN or some western benefactor that puts up the money. The Israelis relied on themselves when they built modern Israel. Most of the social service organizations that Israel has today come from groups that were around hundreds of years ago. The Italian, German and Irish immigrants to the USA all had similar social service groups. The Palestinians have foreign make a job for themselves NGOs.

Why do you expect Israel to do for the arabs what the arabs must do for themselves? One can offer all the welfare and all the good will one wants, but it is wasted unless the desire for change is real and comes from the heart. How can the arabs change when three successive generations have been taught to hate? The Irish immigrants to the USA suffered prejudice and discrimination. Yet, they did not write schoolbooks that taught kids to count by killing protestants. Arab schoolbooks in Gaza are filled with hatred. When afro americans suffered discrimination and lynchings, they did not put on shows celebrating and encouraging the death of whites. Arab TV in the Palestinian territories is filled with propaganda promoting hate and violence. The arabs must embrace the concepts that advance a society and that means helping others. Arab culture in the Palestinian territories is individualistic based. The Bedouins have the concept of sharing as a cornerstone of their lives.. The Israelis understand the concept of sharing for the betterment of society. The non indigeneous arabs do not. It takes time to develop. It took a century for England to develop a proper approach to social service. And yet you think that Palestinian society will magically acquire these attributes once there is a Palestinian state. Creating borders will condemn the arabs to another generation of anger, because the borders and the state will not give them the social structures they need to create a civil society. It will instead create another Haiti, a nation dependent upon foreign aid.

Source?

That is some WW2 myths mixed with hasbara talk to demonize the Arabs.

Edited May 26, 2011 by samurai

[Ulysses G.]

Source?

"Source?" geriatrickid actually studies history and relates it honestly and accurately.

Not everyone on here is running to Google trying to find some out-of-context "fact" to support some bogus claim about the evil Jews.

[samurai]

Source?

"Source?" geriatrickid actually studies history and relates it honestly and accurately.

Not everyone on here is running to Google trying to find some out-of-context "fact" to support some bogus claim about the evil Jews.

"Source" - that is the tool of historians.

speaking of "non indigenous arabs" and compare them to Irish Immigrants in America is rich. Guess for how long they are there around and compare that with the Ashkenazi.

What you tell me next, that 500 years ago Columbus was one of the very few who didn't thought that the earth is flat?

Edited May 26, 2011 by samurai

[geriatrickid]

[You think that is is inappropriate to draw any sort of parallel between the African-American experience in the US and the Palestinians. That is your opinion. However, within the narrow confines of my post, I think it is appropriate. The point was that is takes the more powerful faction to agree to change to make the change happen. The less powerful faction can holler and plead, but without the more powerful faction's actions, then nothing will happen.

Your views are very clear on the subject. That is your right. But do you really think everything is so black and white? Are all Arabs as shiftless and worthless as you describe? Let me ask you, and I ask not knowing the answer, how much time have you spent in Israel, in Jordan, in Egypt? How many Palestinians do you actually know? How many Arabs as a whole, for that matter? How many Israelis?

I would suggest that you can't paint all Arabs, all Palestinians, all Muslims, all Israelis, all Jews with the same brush. I certainly have found individuals of all stripes in each of the demographics, for good or bad.

I did not state that all arabs were shiftless or lazy. Don't throw up a false statement in an attempt to distract attention away from your intial statements.

The struggle for afro american civil rights was at its core peaceful. Afro americans did not go about slitting the throats of children or launching missile attacks on schools or sending off kids with suicide bomb vests.

One of the reasons why I believe your analogy is inappropriate is that it is based on the premise that the "whites" were somehow generous in the granting of civil rights. That view ignores the actual integration of afro americans that was already in place. Afro americans were an important consumer group in the south and they were a key part of the labour force that drove the economy. The civil rights movement gained influence as afro americans flexed their economic buying power. The Palestinian arabs do not have economic clout to flex. They are already directing whatever they can to arab suppliers and they certainly avoid Israeli products if possible. The economic driver in the Palestinan economy is foreign aid

Long before the civil rights marches, afro americans were investing in their community by way of community services. In many cases, it was the local church that pushed the concept of education and of taking care of the poor. There was limited outside non afro american support by way of funding. The decision to implement a peaceful push for voting rights and basic civil liberties was driven by sincere Christians and by WWII veterans. In today's PC world, the roles of these two groups and especially that of the church has been downplayed. This is significantly different than what one sees in the Palestinian territories. There is no community emphasis upon education, There is no embrace of non violent protest.The funding for social activities comes from foreign sources. In effect, what one sees is an area made into one large welfare state, courtesy of the west.. There is no incentive for entrepreneurship, nor social advancement as a group because foreign organizations are there. Foreign countries have impeded the Palestinian's social advancement because they didn't allow the Palestinian arabs to develop their own social structures and more importantly, to fund and sacrifice those structures. There is no\ sense of ownership.

I am certainly not calling anyone shiftless or lazy, nor am I classifying all arabs as one one homogeneous group. My reference to Haiti is appropriate. Haiti has has been given billions in aid money and there it sits, an over populated nation rife with corruption unable to sustain itself and completely dependent upon foreign handouts. This is what the Palestinian territories will become unless the civil infrastructure is in place to manage and guide a nation. When modern Israel came into being, it could draw upon a history of social service organizations and a history of communal farming very similar to the mutual assistance one saw with Canadian farmer co-ops or Amish and Mennonite farm circles in the USA. That tradition just doesn't exist in the Palestinian territories. There are no farm co-ops, there are no buying groups and there is no "church" preaching peace. There are few if any public development or social service agencies that were started by Palestinian arabs and funded by Palestinian arabs. In effect the Palestinian arabs do not own the process. It has been pushed/manipulated/managed by groups that are detached from the people.Mr. Abbas never worked on a farm. Mr Haniya, the Hamas leader never had a trade or job skill. The pioneers of Israel, of North America and South America all at some point got their hands dirty in the fields. Do you really think a Palestinian living in an urban setting is going to be ready to sacrifice the way pioneers did? One cannot eat feed or clothe the masses with political slogans.

One can create all the borders one wants, but effectively all that one will be building are the walls to a massive refugee camp, a camp where people will not be able to grow enough food to fee the population, where there will be no energy sources, where birthrates will be through the roof and where there will be no manufacturing or technological base. Yes, create a nation, draw up borders, and then what? What will you do with the millions of hungry, unemployed people crammed into a dirty, dusty place? Oh that's right, you will give them ipods and colour TVs so that they will be distracted.

[Credo]

I hope that someone can give Israel a push toward getting a peace deal, and I don't want to sound like Israel is the culprit preventing peace, because it isn't. The problem is that Israel is as close to being sane in the region as it gets.

The situation in many Arab countries is very fluid at the moment. Once the political unrest settles down, I am concerned that the next generation of leaders may be just as difficult to deal with as the old ones, if not more so.

Without a resolution to the situation in the near future, things may go from bad to worse. I think it's better that those raised on steady diet of bile and hate, should be left to fight with each other.

[Ulysses G.]

speaking of "non indigenous arabs" and compare them to Irish Immigrants in America is rich. Guess for how long they are there around and compare that with the Ashkenazi.

Most of them arrived from surrounding Arab countries at about the same time as most of the European Jews. That is why they have no more right to the land than the other immigrants (who accepted the UN partition and already have their own country).

[up-country_sinclair]

the only rational explanation for all this is that it is part of something

much much bigger although I couldn't define what that " something " is exactly

It's called justice. And it's long overdue.

[powderpuff]

Obama has a very simple view of the world. There are 2 groups. The oppressed & the oppressors.

The USA & Israel belong to one group & Arabs & Muslims belong to the other group.

I will let you guess which is which.

[samurai]

speaking of "non indigenous arabs" and compare them to Irish Immigrants in America is rich. Guess for how long they are there around and compare that with the Ashkenazi.

Most of them arrived from surrounding Arab countries at about the same time as most of the European Jews. That is why they have no more right to the land than the other immigrants (who accepted the UN partition and already have their own country).

False as the myth that in mediaeval times the people had thought that the earth is flat, it is a false myth.

Edited May 26, 2011 by samurai

[samurai]

Obama has a very simple view of the world. There are 2 groups. The oppressed & the oppressors.

The USA & Israel belong to one group & Arabs & Muslims belong to the other group.

I will let you guess which is which.

Obama is American.

Your world view is quite the opposite of simple, i see.

[kuffki]

speaking of "non indigenous arabs" and compare them to Irish Immigrants in America is rich. Guess for how long they are there around and compare that with the Ashkenazi.

Most of them arrived from surrounding Arab countries at about the same time as most of the European Jews. That is why they have no more right to the land than the other immigrants (who accepted the UN partition and already have their own country).

False as the myth that in mediaeval times the people had thought that the earth is flat, it is a false myth.

Please share your version of events......

[kuffki]

Obama has a very simple view of the world. There are 2 groups. The oppressed & the oppressors.

The USA & Israel belong to one group & Arabs & Muslims belong to the other group.

I will let you guess which is which.

Obama is American.

Your world view is quite the opposite of simple, i see.

Please do share your view.....

[Ulysses G.]

It's called justice.

There has been justice each and every time the Arab giants have attacked tiny Israel and been soundly thrashed. Don't expect any big changes.

[bonobo]

Please keep posts level-headed and refrain from flaming. Posts have been deleted.

[samurai]

Obama has a very simple view of the world. There are 2 groups. The oppressed & the oppressors.

The USA & Israel belong to one group & Arabs & Muslims belong to the other group.

I will let you guess which is which.

Obama is American.

Your world view is quite the opposite of simple, i see.

Please do share your view.....

my view.

Obama is American.

That let people make wrong assumption, like that Onama would have a very simple view on the world.

This is just a false stereotype of Americans.

makes me really wonder why some think it would be like that.

Share your view.

[siamiam]

You think that is is inappropriate to draw any sort of parallel between the African-American experience in the US and the Palestinians. That is your opinion. However, within the narrow confines of my post, I think it is appropriate. The point was that is takes the more powerful faction to agree to change to make the change happen. The less powerful faction can holler and plead, but without the more powerful faction's actions, then nothing will happen........

In my opinion, your point has merit. Perhaps others would have preferred an analogy to the North American 'Indian'. The 'Indians' fought violently because they were being dispossessed of their land, just as the Palestinians are being dispossessed of theirs. Speaking on the plight of the North American 'Indian', I believe that in reality Israel intends the same for the Palestinians. All the talk on the part of Israel of a two state solution is just lip service, designed to appease people like you and I while securing the time and funding necessary to accomplish the acquisition of all currently occupied Territories. The same type of lip service has come from the US government over the years, but you will notice that they have never suggested 'economic sanctions' against Israel in the form of reduced aid. I hope I am wrong about this, but after decades of listening to the same thing over and over, that is how I see it.

......... This is significantly different than what one sees in the Palestinian territories. There is no community emphasis upon education, There is no embrace of non violent protest.The funding for social activities comes from foreign sources. In effect, what one sees is an area made into one large welfare state, courtesy of the west..

If someone invaded your country would you suggest that they protest peacefully? The Palestinians have had their land and their country stolen from them by a superior force with superior funding. They are an emasculated people, courtesy of Israel and the United States government, not "the west".

One can create all the borders one wants, but effectively all that one will be building are the walls to a massive refugee camp, a camp where people will not be able to grow enough food to fee the population, where there will be no energy sources, where birthrates will be through the roof and where there will be no manufacturing or technological base. Yes, create a nation, draw up borders, and then what? What will you do with the millions of hungry, unemployed people crammed into a dirty, dusty place? Oh that's right, you will give them ipods and colour TVs so that they will be distracted.

Is this your view of what the outcome of a Palestinian country would be, because what you would like to see is the same that Israel wants to see, and that is the Palestinians leaving their current 'Territories' for a new life and home elsewhere? The Palestinians were doing just fine in Palestine for a very long time, regardless of weather or not you and others call what they had a 'country'.

Here is a link to one groups history of the area:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

[luckizuchinni]

[You think that is is inappropriate to draw any sort of parallel between the African-American experience in the US and the Palestinians. That is your opinion. However, within the narrow confines of my post, I think it is appropriate. The point was that is takes the more powerful faction to agree to change to make the change happen. The less powerful faction can holler and plead, but without the more powerful faction's actions, then nothing will happen.

Your views are very clear on the subject. That is your right. But do you really think everything is so black and white? Are all Arabs as shiftless and worthless as you describe? Let me ask you, and I ask not knowing the answer, how much time have you spent in Israel, in Jordan, in Egypt? How many Palestinians do you actually know? How many Arabs as a whole, for that matter? How many Israelis?

I would suggest that you can't paint all Arabs, all Palestinians, all Muslims, all Israelis, all Jews with the same brush. I certainly have found individuals of all stripes in each of the demographics, for good or bad.

I did not state that all arabs were shiftless or lazy. Don't throw up a false statement in an attempt to distract attention away from your intial statements.

The struggle for afro american civil rights was at its core peaceful. Afro americans did not go about slitting the throats of children or launching missile attacks on schools or sending off kids with suicide bomb vests.

One of the reasons why I believe your analogy is inappropriate is that it is based on the premise that the "whites" were somehow generous in the granting of civil rights. That view ignores the actual integration of afro americans that was already in place. Afro americans were an important consumer group in the south and they were a key part of the labour force that drove the economy. The civil rights movement gained influence as afro americans flexed their economic buying power. The Palestinian arabs do not have economic clout to flex. They are already directing whatever they can to arab suppliers and they certainly avoid Israeli products if possible. The economic driver in the Palestinan economy is foreign aid

Long before the civil rights marches, afro americans were investing in their community by way of community services. In many cases, it was the local church that pushed the concept of education and of taking care of the poor. There was limited outside non afro american support by way of funding. The decision to implement a peaceful push for voting rights and basic civil liberties was driven by sincere Christians and by WWII veterans. In today's PC world, the roles of these two groups and especially that of the church has been downplayed. This is significantly different than what one sees in the Palestinian territories. There is no community emphasis upon education, There is no embrace of non violent protest.The funding for social activities comes from foreign sources. In effect, what one sees is an area made into one large welfare state, courtesy of the west.. There is no incentive for entrepreneurship, nor social advancement as a group because foreign organizations are there. Foreign countries have impeded the Palestinian's social advancement because they didn't allow the Palestinian arabs to develop their own social structures and more importantly, to fund and sacrifice those structures. There is no\ sense of ownership.

I am certainly not calling anyone shiftless or lazy, nor am I classifying all arabs as one one homogeneous group. My reference to Haiti is appropriate. Haiti has has been given billions in aid money and there it sits, an over populated nation rife with corruption unable to sustain itself and completely dependent upon foreign handouts. This is what the Palestinian territories will become unless the civil infrastructure is in place to manage and guide a nation. When modern Israel came into being, it could draw upon a history of social service organizations and a history of communal farming very similar to the mutual assistance one saw with Canadian farmer co-ops or Amish and Mennonite farm circles in the USA. That tradition just doesn't exist in the Palestinian territories. There are no farm co-ops, there are no buying groups and there is no "church" preaching peace. There are few if any public development or social service agencies that were started by Palestinian arabs and funded by Palestinian arabs. In effect the Palestinian arabs do not own the process. It has been pushed/manipulated/managed by groups that are detached from the people.Mr. Abbas never worked on a farm. Mr Haniya, the Hamas leader never had a trade or job skill. The pioneers of Israel, of North America and South America all at some point got their hands dirty in the fields. Do you really think a Palestinian living in an urban setting is going to be ready to sacrifice the way pioneers did? One cannot eat feed or clothe the masses with political slogans.

One can create all the borders one wants, but effectively all that one will be building are the walls to a massive refugee camp, a camp where people will not be able to grow enough food to fee the population, where there will be no energy sources, where birthrates will be through the roof and where there will be no manufacturing or technological base. Yes, create a nation, draw up borders, and then what? What will you do with the millions of hungry, unemployed people crammed into a dirty, dusty place? Oh that's right, you will give them ipods and colour TVs so that they will be distracted.

And now you are putting words into my posts. When did I ever post that "we" should give them anything. I wrote that when people see a goal which can be obtained only through peaceful commerce and living, then pressure is put on continued violence. I saw this myself in Iraq, not just in al Qai'am, but even the Awakening had its roots in simple cell phones. When Al Qaeda blew up the new US-provided cell phone tower in Ramadi so families could not keep in touch with each other amidst the problems, that was the start of the Sunnis moving to rid their areas of Al Qeada. Simple cell phones, or lack thereof. Given the choice, with all things being equal, a large percentage of people would rather work and provide for their families' welfare than fight and die in violence. At least that is how I see it.

And I never inferred that white Americans were "generous" in "giving" black Americans civil rights legislations. The point is the powerful, or who has the power, whether that be military, police, or governments, have to be the ones to change the status quo. This was true in India with the British deciding that they would cede power there, with the US in granting the Philippines independence, with The USSR stepping back during Poland's revolution unlike what they did in Hungary.

I am not nor have drawn any parallel with Black Americans and Palestinians. The parallel is with the power structure in place, in that change had to be accepted by the faction in power.

I will ask you once again if you have ever been to Israel, either the government controlled areas or those areas populated by the Palestinians. Have you ever seen the small businesses which have sprung up, particularly among Palestinian women who received microfinancing? To infer that they are incapable of having any degree of an economy is really misplaced.

Even if you are correct and the Palestinians are a basket case in being able to sustain an economy, is that the litmus test in being independent? Why not take away Haiti's independence, then? Or any one of half a dozen other economic basket cases.

The Palestinian issue is not one of economics. It is one of politics, security, and international relations. And despite some posters decrying others as "Islamists" and "Islamofacists" for stating the truth that most of the nations of the world support the formation of a Palestinian state, this is a fact, and I think it will be hard for Israel to completely resist that. The key is to design a solution which maintains Israel security while offering the Palestinians an acceptable end result.

While Hamas still pushes violence, I don't see this happening. So if we, the US, want to contribute to peace in the region, well, we need to come up with logic where it makes sense for the rank and file Palestinians to stop support of Hamas and to move to Israeli recognition as an initial step, and peace thereafter. And if that can somehow be done, which will be very difficult, then Israel needs to be ready to act in kind.

Edited May 26, 2011 by luckizuchinni

[kuffki]

Already have, please feel free to read the thread

Obama has a very simple view of the world. There are 2 groups. The oppressed & the oppressors.

The USA & Israel belong to one group & Arabs & Muslims belong to the other group.

I will let you guess which is which.

Obama is American.

Your world view is quite the opposite of simple, i see.

Please do share your view.....

my view.

Obama is American.

That let people make wrong assumption, like that Onama would have a very simple view on the world.

This is just a false stereotype of Americans.

makes me really wonder why some think it would be like that.

Share your view.

[powderpuff]

Obama has a very simple view of the world. There are 2 groups. The oppressed & the oppressors.

The USA & Israel belong to one group & Arabs & Muslims belong to the other group.

I will let you guess which is which.

Obama is American.

Your world view is quite the opposite of simple, i see.

Let's see. White mother. Edited out of the bio. Sat in a church for 20 years listening to anti-American anti-White hate speech. Took his daughters to Ghana so they could see a port where slaves were loaded for the trip to the New World. Why is it important for his girls to learn about slavery? Why did Obama send the bust of Churchill back inside the first week? I know the answer.

When that idiot professor got arrested in Cambridge MA. Obama knew about it in seconds. He felt it was racial profiling. He said that the police behaved "stupidly" Obama is not stupid but his speech at the State Dept was "STUPID"

Any Marxist ideologues automatically get Baracks sympathy. Because he is an anarchist at heart. Deal with it. Remember Nelson Mandela? That power right fist meant something.

To "some white people" it meant the hammer & sickle. Namibia is another country that from the first day of Independence went Communist. Of course someone slapped some sense into Mandela before he could implement a politburo.

I wonder why Arafat died a billionaire ? Is it because he embezzled 1,000's of millions of dollars from his own "peeps". Hell Ya.

I agree with Ulysses. As long as those folks allow themselves to be used as tools they will never get a homeland. Some Nome Nah.

[samurai]

Check how Israel made it into the last 10 states of the Global Peace Index.

link here:

[Ulysses G.]

The Jews of Israel have been at war for the last 100 years and not of their choosing. They have been defending themselves from being "pushed into the sea".

Of course they are not going to be number one on the "peace index".

[Ulysses G.]

Even if you are correct and the Palestinians are a basket case in being able to sustain an economy, is that the litmus test in being independent? Why not take away Haiti's independence, then? Or any one of half a dozen other economic basket cases.

I am not against a PEACEFUL two state solution, but, it is quite a different thing to hold off on giving people a new country that is sure to be a complete disaster and "taking away" independence from an established country.

[Ulysses G.]

And despite some posters decrying others as "Islamists" and "Islamofacists" for stating the truth that most of the nations of the world support the formation of a Palestinian state, this is a fact, and I think it will be hard for Israel to completely resist that. The key is to design a solution which maintains Israel security while offering the Palestinians an acceptable end result.

Did any poster on here call anyone an "Islamofacist" for saying that many nations support a Palestinian state? If so, I do not remember it and would guess it would be for something more along the lines of a hateful post about Israel or of support for Islamic terrorists.

I do remember one poster decrying others as "Puppets of Israel " for not agreeing with his views however.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

If someone invaded your country would you suggest that they protest peacefully?

It has been pointed out over and over again that this is not what happened. There were both Arabs and Jews living on this land - and not a whole lot of either - and outside of Jerusalem it was mostly a barren desert, not a "country".

The arrival of lots of both Arab and Jewish immigrants is what started the fighting - and it was not initiated by Jews. The UN stepped in to settle the problem and the Jews accepted land and the Arabs did not.

By the way, your link is full of silly propaganda. Try this one for a fairly balanced history based on facts.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#Introductory

[geriatrickid]

Check how Israel made it into the last 10 states of the Global Peace Index.

link here:

http://www.thaivisa....al-peace-index/

It is a country under continuous threat of attack. Why are you surprised?

Thailand has a rather dismal rating - one of the worst in the region.