Israel rejects U.S. call for 1967 borders

[geriatrickid]

Luckyzuchini you have yet to address the key issue of sustainability of the suggested borders. What does it matter whether or not I have been in the region? It doesn't change the reality of the situation. As a matter of fact, I have been in the west bank,Tel Aviv and visited several sites such as the Dome of the Rock, Nazareth etc. I was also smack dab in the middle of the DMZ standing in a Syrian laid minefield in an abandoned Druze village. What difference does it make? Does it make a difference that I spent time with Bedouins, hence my fondness for some of them?

The lands proposed for the Palestinian state are in large part barren of the resources necessary to support the population that would flood the area. Do you appreciate that a great deal of the land is held by families with custody that dates back at least a century? What westerners do not appreciate is that these people will lose large chunks of their land as people come to settle or more specifically squat, turning subsistence agricultural lands into urban ghettos. Where will the water come from? The energy needed for electricity? Where will the jobs come from? What do you propose these arabs manufacture or create? This mad rush to create a nation will condemn the Palestinian arabs to poverty and despair.

Your reference to microfinancing is laughable and demonstrates a profound ignorance of the current state of microfinancing in the Palestinian territories. Over 80% of microfinanced businesses is controlled by males and not women. It's not the same paradigm as in Africa. Microfinancing is not a viable route for economic growth for the one glaring reason that the local culture is debt adverse. Outside of the "western" educated, arabs are not poisoned by the acceptance of debt. You should know that there is no such thing as lending with interest in Islamic countries. You should also know that women working in places like Gaza is not welcomed. Traditional islamic society has a specific role for women and unless you forgot, religious fundamentalists run Gaza and hold sway in the west bank now.

Now you claim that the Palestinian issue is not one of economics. Unfortunately, it is an integral part of the equation. You cannot expect millions of young people to sit around unemployed and not get into trouble and cause a security threat. The uprisings in Tunisia Libya, and Egypt have been driven by under employed and unemployed youth with no job prospects, no future. Well, if you cram a few million under 30's into the Palestinian territories you are creating a breeding ground for violent uprising.

The foundation for a nation has not been laid. What is required now is nation building, by way of creating the infrastructure and educated class that can build the nation. The palestinian arabs are certainly capable of achieving such a requirement but they are being set up for failure.

I like your comment "Even if you are correct and the Palestinians are a basket case in being able to sustain an economy, is that the litmus test in being independent? Why not take away Haiti's independence, then? Or any one of half a dozen other economic basket cases" because it proves my point. Haiti is not independent. It is a dependent state. It has been intermittently occupied and managed by western countries for the the past 50 years. Westerners show up when the refugee crisis due to political unrest gets out of hand. The same holds for some African states. What do you think will happen when the Palestinian territories are gripped by civil unrest, when thousands are killed as factions battle for control? Fatah and Hamas couldn't even manage an election in Gaza, and Fatah has delayed elections in the West Bank and yet you think the new country will somehow become a functioning peaceful land? Yes, western nations will probably pour billions in aid into the country, but we all know what will happen. It will be stolen just like the aid money now.

President Clinton engineered a deal that is similar to what is being proposed now. Israel was willing to agree and the Palestinian arabs walked away from it at the last second. Now, all of a sudden, Israel is expected to roll over and facilitate the same group that spat on a previously agreed to peace agreement and that was given Gaza in a peaceful pullout only to use Gaza as a missile launching zone. Why is Israel being told to bend on its survival, and yet no demands are made of the Palestinians to say two things; We accept Israel's right to exist and we will not launch hostile attacks on Israel?

I do not doubt for a minute that there will be a Palestinian nation. My view is that the creation of that country will allow the world to shove the Palestinian arabs into a ghetto bereft of hope and opportunity. These arabs will not be allowed to travel into Israel proper nor into surrounding arab countries. Every country has a right to close its borders and that is precisely what Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt now do.

[Wallaby]

I would think the Palestinians feel ostracised as they don't have a country to call home. Everyone needs a national identity. You may find that giving Palestinians a country to call their own could assist in their efforts to reach peace.

This could take a while to download, the second part is about Israel/Palestine.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3218450.htm

Edited May 27, 2011 by Wallaby

[Wallaby]

The Jews of Israel have been at war for the last 100 years and not of their choosing. They have been defending themselves from being "pushed into the sea".

Of course they are not going to be number one on the "peace index".

Perhaps Israel should have learnt by now that what they are doing isn't working then.

[midas]

the only rational explanation for all this is that it is part of something

much much bigger although I couldn't define what that " something " is exactly

It's called justice. And it's long overdue.

but then we should have thought of that before allowing certain parties

on both sides of the debate to arm themselves with weapons of mass destruction

[Jingthing]

The Jews of Israel have been at war for the last 100 years and not of their choosing. They have been defending themselves from being "pushed into the sea".

Of course they are not going to be number one on the "peace index".

Perhaps Israel should have learnt by now that what they are doing isn't working then.

I find your comment silly. Against incredible odds, the Jewish state of Israel still exists. It isn't certain whether it will continue to exist ten years from now or 100 years from now, but they did something right to merely EXIST. If you don't understand that, you know very little about the history. Yes, I do realize large portions of the world sincerely hope Jewish Israel never existed. Tough cookies.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

Yes, I do realize large portions of the world sincerely hope Jewish Israel never existed. Tough cookies.

Yes, I do realize that a small handful of nations don't want a two state solution based on 1967 borders. Tough cookies.

It's only a question of "when", not "if". And I believe it will be sooner than many of us think.

I find your comment silly. Against incredible odds, the Jewish state of Israel still exists.

Now that's just silly.

I don't know what you consider to be "incredible" odds, but I'll take the full support of the US military on my side every time. Especially when many on the other side are throwing rocks.

Incredible odds? Really?

Edited May 27, 2011 by up-country_sinclair

[Wallaby]

The Jews of Israel have been at war for the last 100 years and not of their choosing. They have been defending themselves from being "pushed into the sea".

Of course they are not going to be number one on the "peace index".

Perhaps Israel should have learnt by now that what they are doing isn't working then.

I find your comment silly. Against incredible odds, the Jewish state of Israel still exists. It isn't certain whether it will continue to exist ten years from now or 100 years from now, but they did something right to merely EXIST. If you don't understand that, you know very little about the history. Yes, I do realize large portions of the world sincerely hope Jewish Israel never existed. Tough cookies.

It has nothing to do with Israel existing. I has everything to do with people saying Israel is constantly threatened, everyone else is bad bad bad, Israel does no wrong etc. Yes Israel hasn't learnt, it continues to antagonise the Palestinians and the Palestinians continue to fight back the only way they know how. That's what people do when they are out muscled, they throw out the book of queensbury rules and use any tactic they can to inflict harm.

But I can't understand why Israel hasn't learnt, afterall, aren't they far superior? That's what some on here spruik anyway.

[Jingthing]

I find your comment silly. Against incredible odds, the Jewish state of Israel still exists.

Now that's just silly.

I don't know what you consider to be "incredible" odds, but I'll take the full support of the US military on my side every time.

Read an OBJECTIVE history. A betting man would have said Israel would have been snuffed out very soon after it started. Looking forward to celebrating a Palestinian state which I now think is quite possible in the not too distant future, but only an idiot would expect ANY COUNTRY, including Israel to freely negotiate it's non-existence. Israel needs to compromise, and so do the Palestinians.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Jingthing

[powderpuff]

It's clear to me that "those Arabs" have no historical claim to the land they are now claiming. They are squatters.

[Scott]

One off-topic post deleted. I don't think we have to re-visit the ancient past.

[Wallaby]

It's clear to me that "those Arabs" have no historical claim to the land they are now claiming. They are squatters.

Do the Israeli's own it?

[koheesti]

It's clear to me that "those Arabs" have no historical claim to the land they are now claiming. They are squatters.

Do the Israeli's own it?

They did purchase a lot of it.

[Wallaby]

They also just kicked out the Palestinians and decided to move in.

Who did they purchase it from?

Are you agreeing that the Palestinians are squatters?

[Ulysses G.]

Who did they purchase it from?

Silly is exactly right. From the absentee landlords in Syria.

Please read some history before commenting.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

Perhaps Israel should have learnt by now that what they are doing isn't working then.

Well, maybe you are right. They could have forced all the Palestinians to leave - like the Arabs did to the Jews in the surrounding countries - but then they would be as bad as the evil Islamic terrorists that are their enemy.

[Ulysses G.]

They have patiently been trying to get peace by compromising with the Arabs for 100 years. You are the one that suggested that they need to change what they are doing.

[Ulysses G.]

Silly? Where is my comment that you talk of?

Your comment? I was agreeing with Jingthing.

The Jews of Israel have been at war for the last 100 years and not of their choosing. They have been defending themselves from being "pushed into the sea".

Of course they are not going to be number one on the "peace index".

Perhaps Israel should have learnt by now that what they are doing isn't working then.

I find your comment silly.

[Scott]

Well, again we have flames, off-topic arguments and links to history that is off-topic. I will close the thread for clean up.

//Closed//

[Scott]

Stay on topic. I am running out of patience and posting holidays on the horizon.

[luckizuchinni]

Luckyzuchini you have yet to address the key issue of sustainability of the suggested borders. What does it matter whether or not I have been in the region? It doesn't change the reality of the situation. As a matter of fact, I have been in the west bank,Tel Aviv and visited several sites such as the Dome of the Rock, Nazareth etc. I was also smack dab in the middle of the DMZ standing in a Syrian laid minefield in an abandoned Druze village. What difference does it make? Does it make a difference that I spent time with Bedouins, hence my fondness for some of them?

The lands proposed for the Palestinian state are in large part barren of the resources necessary to support the population that would flood the area. Do you appreciate that a great deal of the land is held by families with custody that dates back at least a century? What westerners do not appreciate is that these people will lose large chunks of their land as people come to settle or more specifically squat, turning subsistence agricultural lands into urban ghettos. Where will the water come from? The energy needed for electricity? Where will the jobs come from? What do you propose these arabs manufacture or create? This mad rush to create a nation will condemn the Palestinian arabs to poverty and despair.

Your reference to microfinancing is laughable and demonstrates a profound ignorance of the current state of microfinancing in the Palestinian territories. Over 80% of microfinanced businesses is controlled by males and not women. It's not the same paradigm as in Africa. Microfinancing is not a viable route for economic growth for the one glaring reason that the local culture is debt adverse. Outside of the "western" educated, arabs are not poisoned by the acceptance of debt. You should know that there is no such thing as lending with interest in Islamic countries. You should also know that women working in places like Gaza is not welcomed. Traditional islamic society has a specific role for women and unless you forgot, religious fundamentalists run Gaza and hold sway in the west bank now.

Now you claim that the Palestinian issue is not one of economics. Unfortunately, it is an integral part of the equation. You cannot expect millions of young people to sit around unemployed and not get into trouble and cause a security threat. The uprisings in Tunisia Libya, and Egypt have been driven by under employed and unemployed youth with no job prospects, no future. Well, if you cram a few million under 30's into the Palestinian territories you are creating a breeding ground for violent uprising.

The foundation for a nation has not been laid. What is required now is nation building, by way of creating the infrastructure and educated class that can build the nation. The palestinian arabs are certainly capable of achieving such a requirement but they are being set up for failure.

I like your comment "Even if you are correct and the Palestinians are a basket case in being able to sustain an economy, is that the litmus test in being independent? Why not take away Haiti's independence, then? Or any one of half a dozen other economic basket cases" because it proves my point. Haiti is not independent. It is a dependent state. It has been intermittently occupied and managed by western countries for the the past 50 years. Westerners show up when the refugee crisis due to political unrest gets out of hand. The same holds for some African states. What do you think will happen when the Palestinian territories are gripped by civil unrest, when thousands are killed as factions battle for control? Fatah and Hamas couldn't even manage an election in Gaza, and Fatah has delayed elections in the West Bank and yet you think the new country will somehow become a functioning peaceful land? Yes, western nations will probably pour billions in aid into the country, but we all know what will happen. It will be stolen just like the aid money now.

President Clinton engineered a deal that is similar to what is being proposed now. Israel was willing to agree and the Palestinian arabs walked away from it at the last second. Now, all of a sudden, Israel is expected to roll over and facilitate the same group that spat on a previously agreed to peace agreement and that was given Gaza in a peaceful pullout only to use Gaza as a missile launching zone. Why is Israel being told to bend on its survival, and yet no demands are made of the Palestinians to say two things; We accept Israel's right to exist and we will not launch hostile attacks on Israel?

I do not doubt for a minute that there will be a Palestinian nation. My view is that the creation of that country will allow the world to shove the Palestinian arabs into a ghetto bereft of hope and opportunity. These arabs will not be allowed to travel into Israel proper nor into surrounding arab countries. Every country has a right to close its borders and that is precisely what Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt now do.

I have not addressed sustainability because I don't have the answer. However, that should not be the litmus on whether the Palestinians "deserve" a state or not. If they "deserve" a state, then the world has to figure out how to make that state sustainable, and I don't have those answers. I do believe that it is not as bleak at you paint it to be, though.

And no, I am not ignorant on microfinancing among the Palestinians. I have been involved with it in great detail in preparation for introducing it into Iraq (which we did). I have sat in on the process of granting loans to....wait for it....Palestinian women. So yes, I do know something about the subject.

While men own the majority of businesses in Palestinian areas, women have the most informal enterprises, and this is a key target for microfinancing. Some loan groups, such as ASALA only deal with women, while others loan to women in various percentages. One key factor is that women pay back their microloans at a much higher rate than men (not just in Palestine, but world-wide.)

My comment on economics was probably mis-stated. The reality of any state of course has huge economic factors. What I meant that the justice or justification of being an independent state is not a question of economics. The justice of being independent does not rely on the strength of the economy.

You ask some valid questions on the practicalities of running a country. And these have to be worked out. But long before that, first, the Palestinians have to disavow violence and recognize Israel, then the actual land for a Palestinian state needs to be determined. Once that land is identified, then your questions about sustainability can be addressed.

[Wallaby]

Who did they purchase it from?

Silly is exactly right. From the absentee landlords in Syria.

Please read some history before commenting.

No, you replied to MY post. But up to you if you want to ask JT to read some history before commenting.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Wallaby

[Steely Dan]

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/05/congress_gets_an_american_pres.html

Instead of a president continually dodging the ideological threat that is Islam and, worse, denying the danger it poses, Mr. Netanyahu spoke forthrightly about the worldwide threat of extreme Islam. He did not speak like a community organizer, nor did he speak as one whose priority is to protect particular constituencies or befriend him to diplomats who populate the United Nations. Unlike the present occupant of the White House, Mr. Netanyahu spoke as a world-class statesman, at times Reagan-esque, and even Churchill-ian.

Very good article this. Essentially Mr Netanyahu seems to have won the hearts and minds of congress and I doubt BHO will be able to push Israel into suicidal concessions from even within his own democrat ranks.

[powderpuff]

How lucky are the Israeli's that they have a super strong hawk as Prime Minister?

If they had a weak kneed appeaser like maybe Mrs Clinton for example they might wake up to 6 square miles of territory.

[Ulysses G.]

Who did they purchase it from?

Silly is exactly right. From the absentee landlords in Syria.

Please read some history before commenting.

No, you replied to MY post. But up to you if you want to ask JT to read some history before commenting.

Actually, if you want to get technical, I agreed with Jingthing that most of your posts on Israel are ignorant, goading and silly and suggested that you read some history before commenting on such well documented facts as the Arab landlords selling the Jews large tracts of land.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[samurai]

Check how Israel made it into the last 10 states of the Global Peace Index.

link here:

http://www.thaivisa....al-peace-index/

It is a country under continuous threat of attack. Why are you surprised?

Thailand has a rather dismal rating - one of the worst in the region.

I am not surprised, not by the rating and not by the selective arguments and twists you made out of this.

[Ulysses G.]

Israel has been under attack by other countries since it has existed and has had to defend itself. Of course they are not high on any "peace index".

Edited May 27, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[samurai]

Israel has been under attack by other countries since it has existed and has had to defend itself. Of course they are not high on any "peace index".

Israel occupies some territories. Not all might interpret that as peacemaking.

[Ulysses G.]

That they acquired after being attacked over and over from that land. Som nom na as the Thais say.

[up-country_sinclair]

How lucky are the Israeli's that they have a super strong hawk as Prime Minister?

You're right that Netanyahoo is an ultra-right PM. And when his fragile coalition inevitably falls apart, a more moderate and peace minded PM will take the reins and make a fair and just deal on the pre-1967 borders. Opposition leader Tzipi Livni recently blasted Netanyahoo for needlessly putting the US / Israeli relationship in jeopardy with his belligerent and petulant antics.

[samurai]

That they acquired after being attacked over and over from that land. Som nom na as the Thais say.

It started with a preemptive strike by Israel.

Don't need your Hasbara lessons of history.