American Arrested In Thailand For Linking To A Website From His Blog

[Nisa]

wanna dare to be critical of holocaust?

Good point ... Beyond many countries having strict laws limiting people from expressing their views about the holocaust numerous countries have LM or related laws and/or strict criminal laws regulating other freedom of speech that might be viewed as disrespectful or inciting. The problem IMO is not so much Thailand having a law against defaming, insulting or threatening The Royal Family. It is the abuse of the law that has especially been taking place these last years. It would be possible to update the law to make it less open to interpretation but that is not likely in the immediate future because the proposer, in these times, of such an updated law would believe that act in itself may be seen as insulting. I think one thing that would be appropriate and welcomed by most all Thais is to call on the same LM penalties to be imposed on anyone making an accusation of LM that is frivolous and/or motivated by personal gain. IMO that is much more of a violation of LM than somebody's slip of the tongue or not articulating a thought well.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

in the US, books, articles etc on US history are not banned

Actually public school boards determine what text books will be used, including history. It is also not that uncommon for school boards to ban books. In addition, a Federal Judge ruled that intelligent design (god created the world) cannot be taught to public school students as part of their curriculum. In MANY people's minds this is a complete ban on teaching the most important part of history.

As I have stated many times Thailand and the West, including the US are different .. starting with one being a developing nation and the other being a first world/ industrialized nation. But you are uninformed IF you don't believe that in the US there is a history of banning books and even arresting people for expressing themselves even though the freedom of speech clause in the constitution has been in there since the constitution's creation.

[SteeleJoe]

While abroad I read the first few chapters of the book in question - it is full of details and seems to be well researched. I have no idea why it is prohibited though, but then I am not an oversensitive Thai.

I think at least partly because it was an unauthorized biography that does include "some" salacious gossip and because it was a westerner applying his views on how things should be in a democracy without much insight into truly understanding the Thai people, beliefs and culture. Not to mention that the timing of this book comes at the worst time in Thai history in terms of these types of things.

Obviously Thailand is a developing nation and is not going to be on the level of a first world nations (good or bad) but even in the US public schools are not going to use other country's American History books to teach kids the "true" history of America. No, the "truth" is going to come from an American version of history. It sometimes is a very passionate debate about how and what historical facts will be taught to kids but now consider the sensitivity, passion and national devotion there is in Thailand on such subjects as well as the current happenings within Thailand.

With all due respect, in the first paragraph above it is clear you simply don't know what you are talking about. Unfortunately, once again, I can't address your inaccuracies. (of course even the things I do address, you choose to ignore).

As for the second: no one has suggested that this book be used to teach Thai kids Thai history in public schools.

Absurd straw man.

Moreover, in the US, books, articles etc on US history are not banned and nor can one can be arrested for disseminating any, regardless of whether they contradict the version of truth being taught in schools. And certainly nothing that has been as well researched and vetted as the book in question (and published by a department of one of the world's finest universities) would be regarded as this book is here or against the law to sell.

Ridiculous comparison.

And your post about the blogger? Buchholz was right: you play very fast and loose with weakly supported speculation mixed up in the facts and do a poor job of distinguishing the two.

EDIT for Typos

Are you saying the book isn't an unauthorized biography?

Are you saying it wasn't written by a westerner with western views?

Are you saying the book doesn't contain some "some" salacious gossip?

Are you saying that that charges of LM have not gone up HUGELY in the last 5 years?

Responding intelligently to any of these questions should not put you in jeopardy of the LM. Keep in mind the first words in the paragraph indicates these are "partially" the reason and clearly state they are my opinion.

As for the comparison you claimed I made -- it was CLEARLY an example of discussing national pride and slanted views or omissions that occur in all countries as well as the difference between the US and Thailand. I never came remotely close to saying it was the same and I really didn't believe TV readers need to be reminded that the laws in the US and Thailand (and other places) are different ... I really thought this to be common knowledge to all. What was similarity of national pride and how Thais take it to a different level on this subject.

It seems clear to me, based on your comments, you think the books is good and seems to be your motivation for going after my post but what I don't get is how a logical person can believe I made any judgement against the book. It is fact the book contains 'some" gossip as I stated but I never said it was presented as fact. A good writer wanting to cover a subject thoroughly often times includes rumor and speculation as long as they make it clear that is what it is.

I'm not sure why you felt a need to try to interpret or put different meanings into my post since what I said was what I meant and there was nothing deeper to it.

It’sinteresting that you made a point of avoiding the parts of your post that Ihighlighted. But hey, I'll play along...

Are you sayingthe book isn't an unauthorized biography?

No. I am not. (thoughI will say it’s more than that as well – it goes far beyond being a biography,I would say). Nor did I suggest otherwise. It's just silly for you to even bring that up as a response to my post.

Are you sayingit wasn't written by a westerner with western views?

I’m saying that is a loaded and inaccuratedescription. Moreover I’m saying that is “not a westerner applying his views on how things should be in a democracywithout much insight into truly understanding the Thai people, beliefs andculture”. Indeed I’m saying that’s wildly inaccurate. If you’ve read it – or even about it – and you are honest,you’d know that that was not even close.

Are you sayingthe book doesn't contain some "some" salacious gossip?

I’m saying that is also a loadedand misleading characterization: some of the content is unverified beyond doubtand is impossible to verify. It may indeed be “salacious gossip” to some but itis far from being without substance.

I’m also saying that that isn’tthe reason the book is banned. It’s not the unsubstantiated stuff that worriespeople the most. But to be fair, you did cite the "salacious gossip" as being only part of the reason for the banning.

Are you sayingthat that charges of LM have not gone up HUGELY in the last 5 years?

Uh... what? How could youpossibly think Iwas sayig that?

As for thecomparison you claimed I made -- it was CLEARLY an example of discussingnational pride and slanted views or omissions that occur in all countries aswell as the difference between the US and Thailand.

It’s not a “claim”,it’s right there. And the situations are so completely different that not onlywas the comparsion speciouis it was intellectually dishonest.

It seems clearto me, based on your comments, you think the books is good and seems to be yourmotivation for going after my post but what I don't get is how a logical personcan believe I made any judgement against the book. It is fact the book contains'some" gossip as I stated but I never said it was presented as fact. Agood writer wanting to cover a subject thoroughly often times includes rumorand speculation as long as they make it clear that is what it is.

I think thebook is good. I don’t think it is perfect nor do I think it should necessarilybe entirely believed. That has little or nothing to do with what Iposted which was about your comments on the book, not the book per se. My motivation for “going after your post” is that yourpost(s) on this subject are riddled with logical fallacies and emotive and misleading rhetoric.

I'm not surewhy you felt a need to try to interpret or put different meanings into my postsince what I said was what I meant and there was nothing deeper to it.

I haveinterpreted nothing or put different meaning into anything. Feel free to showme where I have

[SteeleJoe]

in the US, books, articles etc on US history are not banned

Actually public school boards determine what text books will be used, including history. It is also not that uncommon for school boards to ban books. In addition, a Federal Judge ruled that intelligent design (god created the world) cannot be taught to public school students as part of their curriculum. In MANY people's minds this is a complete ban on teaching the most important part of history.

As I have stated many times Thailand and the West, including the US are different .. starting with one being a developing nation and the other being a first world/ industrialized nation. But you are uninformed IF you don't believe that in the US there is a history of banning books and even arresting people for expressing themselves even though the freedom of speech clause in the constitution has been in there since the constitution's creation.

Ah, decied to go back to that straw man after all?

We are not talking about a public school system not choosing to use a text in its curriculum for children. We are talking about a book that cannot be sold to anyone or even linked to on the internet. Banned.

"In many people's minds"...seriously, you think that serves to support your use of such a comparison? There are constitutional reasons for that 'ban' and no academic reasons for inclusion of such material. And it has nothing to do with censoring history that the state doesn't want people to know about.

Nor are we talking about people being arrested for expressing themselves. But if you think you can cite an analogous situation to this one, I'd like to see it.

[TAWP]

Apart from off-topic, the issue with creationism isn't that it would be banned in US schools (it isn't) but in some states they have now mandated via law that it HAS to be taught and be given the same weight as theory of evolution.

Basically that two opposing teachings [one without any basic evidence to lead its hypotheses into theory] should be given 'equal time', which is completely nuts.

[theodorebagwell]

Should Google and Facebook owners start sweating as their websites

also has many links to this subject?

Bill Gates and Steve Job are next!

[Asa]

Anyone is free to express his ideology, farang in the Kingdom included. But one must comply to Thai Laws, and be prepared to face the charge when he openly goes against them.

[Yeppe]

We don´t call Thailand a democracy country at all. Why people can joke on me and say whatever they want to me and I can´t do anything? Because that´s normal life - better get used to that... Such kind of "special rights" belongs to the year of 1800 - not to the current year we are living in....So childish to arrest anyone for saying / writing something that someone doesn´t like. Say or write back to the guy, if it makes you angry - there is no need to go to jail nor court....

[chuang]

According to David Streckfuss, author of the book "Truth On Trial In Thailand", a study of defamation, treason and lese majeste...

From 1990 to 2005, there was an average of five or six cases of lese majeste heard in lower courts every year..

But the numbers between 2006 and 2009 went up to 397, he said at a panel discussion at Thailand's Foreign Correspondents' Club recently......

Edited May 30, 2011 by chuang

[Nisa]

And there in lies the real problem and issue. A combination of; a view of what Thaksin desired which some of his followers believe in combined with a public that is currently VERY sensitive towards any perceived disrespect towards HM which is allowing politicians & leaders using this law (usually without real justification) to discredit the opposition. Then when an opposition member is accused they then might go back and look for words of the accuser or members of his party to make LM charges in return.

The problem, in part, is not the law but rather the abuse of the law for ones personal interest ... which in itself would seem to violate the LM laws. There are numerous countries which have laws which prevent defaming, insulting or threatening Royal Family members and even heads of state. There are of course other issues including lack of education in terms of the people not understanding that politicians are abusing the LM law by interpreting the word "disrespect" way too broadly. An example is that to my knowledge there is no law preventing one from speaking about succession but it is common knowledge doing so would be a violation of the LM laws. It would appear that this is interpreted as disrespect even though logic, by word definition and the law, the discussion can easily be had in a very respectful manner.

Many other States also have laws that can be interpreted and/or abused but what stops this is a public and press which would see (and voice disapproval) the abuse of such laws as a huge negative against the accuser.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

It is now being reported that despite Joe's claim of being US Citizen and NOT a Thai Citizen ... He opened a language school as well as another business in Nakhon Ratchasima. He also applied for a Thai ID Card and is still collecting 500 Baht a month from the War Veterans Organisation.

As for the doubters that he is a Red Shirt ...

DSI says the IP address associated with his blog (Nor Por Chor USA) was traced to his house in Isan. The initials of the web site are associated with the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship.

Judging from just the first page of his blog (postings HE made while in Thailand) it appears he has a SERIOUS obsession with providing negative news and accusations about the Royal Family and this is CLEARLY not about a link to a book ... especially considering all the other charges brought against him including encouraging others to break LM Laws.

IMO, This is definitely not an unjust application of the law and this guy is not only dishonest but deserves the charges brought against him ... though I hope he is not jailed too long if is possible that he agrees to give up his Thai Citizenship and leave the country.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Apart from off-topic, the issue with creationism isn't that it would be banned in US schools (it isn't) but in some states they have now mandated via law that it HAS to be taught and be given the same weight as theory of evolution.

Not to get even more off topic since the original example was clearly to compare passions people have in their beliefs when it comes to speaking (or not) on subjects but ... The United States, the Supreme Court has ruled the teaching of creationism as science in public schools to be unconstitutional.

You are right that some districts (possibly states) continue to teach creationism but this is a better example of how the LM Laws are inturpretted too broadly and severely currently.

Also it is important to note that the Unites States of America is a group of states with their own constitutions. So, there are many laws and practices of them within America that are not nationwide. the USA is pretty unique in terms of having states that more closely compare to an actual country rather than a city or district in other parts of the world.

more info: http://en.wikipedia....ublic_education

Edited May 30, 2011 by Nisa

[harrry]

It is now being reported that despite Joe's claim of being US Citizen and NOT a Thai Citizen ... He opened a language school as well as another business in Nakhon Ratchasima. He also applied for a Thai ID Card and is still collecting 500 Baht a month from the War Veterans Organisation.

As for the doubters that he is a Red Shirt ...

DSI says the IP address associated with his blog (Nor Por Chor USA) was traced to his house in Isan. The initials of the web site are associated with the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship.

Judging from just the first page of his blog (postings HE made while in Thailand) it appears he has a SERIOUS obsession with providing negative news and accusations about the Royal Family and this is CLEARLY not about a link to a book ... especially considering all the other charges brought against him including encouraging others to break LM Laws.

IMO, This is definitely not an unjust application of the law and this guy is not only dishonest but deserves the charges brought against him ... though I hope he is not jailed too long if is possible that he agrees to give up his Thai Citizenship and leave the country.

Sources?

[Nisa]

Sources?

The other BKK newspaper which we cannot link to here.

[Thai at Heart]

It is now being reported that despite Joe's claim of being US Citizen and NOT a Thai Citizen ... He opened a language school as well as another business in Nakhon Ratchasima. He also applied for a Thai ID Card and is still collecting 500 Baht a month from the War Veterans Organisation.

As for the doubters that he is a Red Shirt ...

DSI says the IP address associated with his blog (Nor Por Chor USA) was traced to his house in Isan. The initials of the web site are associated with the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship.

Judging from just the first page of his blog (postings HE made while in Thailand) it appears he has a SERIOUS obsession with providing negative news and accusations about the Royal Family and this is CLEARLY not about a link to a book ... especially considering all the other charges brought against him including encouraging others to break LM Laws.

IMO, This is definitely not an unjust application of the law and this guy is not only dishonest but deserves the charges brought against him ... though I hope he is not jailed too long if is possible that he agrees to give up his Thai Citizenship and leave the country.

Linking the fact that he is a red shirt as a way of suggesting that this strengthens the lese majeste charge is a long and slippery legal slope.

Trusting the authorities to not apply laws that are open to abuse, when they have a vested interest in using such laws to protect themselves is the perfect recipe for creating political prisoners which in the long run achieves the very opposite of what the law was meant to create, which was protect an institution. Create enough people who can claim to be political prisoners and the institutions that this law is meant to protect will be weakened.

Thailand can have its lese majeste law if it wants. I just think that such a law creates the very opposite of what it is meant to achieve.

[boggle]

Well, let Thais do the things in Thailand the Thai way, and farang do the things in their respective countries the farang way.

Will you be happy if some Chinese in Europe say that it is stupid to eat using fork and it is better to use chopstick as your only dining tool? Or some Arabs in UK condemn UK law, which doesn't prohibit women from swimming in the same pool with men?

Every nation has their own law and the only people who have the right to criticize the law is the citizen of that nation.

Silly post.

Correct. You have hit the nail on the head. The fact is that, in your above post, people can criticize or voice their opinon with out the threat of being thrown into the jail.

You think Thai can openly discuss and criticize the law we are discussing?

[boggle]

Why is the monarchy of Thailand an extremely sensitive subject?

Consider too that Thais have no problem talking and speculating privately about such topics and I've never heard of a case of anybody being prosecuted for doing so. It is those who make a public display that are prosecuted. There is no doubt in my mind in the future the law will be lightened and eventually gone but at the present time I believe it is worth keeping and is good for Thailand.

Wow. My Thai family, a big middle class family, to my knowlege never speek about this. I have never heard the many Thai I work and socialize with speek of the topic. In fact if the topic ever gets raised some how they will politely chang the subject.

[Nisa]

Boggie,

It "might" have to do with your presence. I know many Thais who love the institutions and all have pictures of present and/or past Thai Royals hung high in their homes and/or business but have no problem speaking privately of concerns that would be taboo in a public forum.

And yes, Thais can openly speak as we are speaking on this forum. Some of the people here are Thai. TV respects the laws of Thailand when it comes to these matters. I'm sure none of us (including George) would like to see TV blocked in Thailand. If we were violating the laws then it almost certainly would be.

Thai at Heart

I wasn't in any way linking the fact he is a Red to suggest it strengthens this case. I simply speculated earlier that because he was accused of LM and resided in Isan that I was fairly certain it would turn out he was affiliated with the Reds. At least one poster thought this an illogical assumption. As for Reds, they are by far the ones most accused of breaching this law and there is a good reason why they are so easily targeted be it just or applying the law too broadly for political gain.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Nisa

[boggle]

Boggie,

It "might" have to do with your presence. I know many Thais who love the institutions and all have pictures of present and/or past Thai Royals hung high in their homes and/or business but have no problem speaking privately of concerns that would be taboo in a public forum.

And yes, Thais can openly speak as we are speaking on this forum. Some of the people here are Thai. TV respects the laws of Thailand when it comes to these matters. I'm sure none of us (including George) would like to see TV blocked in Thailand. If we were violating the laws then it almost certainly would be.

Sometimes I find it dificult to follow your posts. I think you did not get the point. My thai family/friends are no different to most Thais. Have all the pictures, discuss the royals etc. My point being is that I have never seen them discussing the LM law. Which is what we are discussing here.

I have no idea where the comment about TV being blocked comes from.

I do shake my head in amazement.

BOGGIE

Edited May 31, 2011 by boggle

[Nisa]

Boggie,

It "might" have to do with your presence. I know many Thais who love the institutions and all have pictures of present and/or past Thai Royals hung high in their homes and/or business but have no problem speaking privately of concerns that would be taboo in a public forum.

And yes, Thais can openly speak as we are speaking on this forum. Some of the people here are Thai. TV respects the laws of Thailand when it comes to these matters. I'm sure none of us (including George) would like to see TV blocked in Thailand. If we were violating the laws then it almost certainly would be.

Sometimes I find it dificult to follow your posts. I think you did not get the point. My thai family/friends are no different to most Thais. Have all the pictures, discuss the royals etc. My point being is that I have never seen them discussing the LM law. Which is what we are discussing here.

I have no idea where the comment about TV being blocked comes from.

I do shake my head in amazement.

BOGGIE

I'm not sure what you were having trouble understanding in the post you responded to since I was clearly speaking about Thais speaking about the institution and Royal family. Read all of post 287 again and you will see it is clear what was being discussed and the subject I was responding.

As for not understanding about the TV comment I used to show that anyone can speak about the LM laws (Thai or otherwise). It was in response to your comment (see below) )which seems to imply we can do something here on TV that Thais are not allowed to. You state "we are discussing" .. well, we are doing this on TV:

You think Thai can openly discuss and criticize the law we are discussing?

Edited May 31, 2011 by Nisa

[Buchholz]

Thai at Heart

I wasn't in any way linking the fact he is a Red to suggest it strengthens this case. I simply speculated earlier that because he was accused of LM and resided in Isan that I was fairly certain it would turn out he was affiliated with the Reds. At least one poster thought this an illogical assumption.

If you are referring to me, I didn't say it was an illogical assumption, simply an undocumented one.

In light of the Bangkok Post's additional information provided, it's no longer undocumented.

[Nisa]

Thai at Heart

I wasn't in any way linking the fact he is a Red to suggest it strengthens this case. I simply speculated earlier that because he was accused of LM and resided in Isan that I was fairly certain it would turn out he was affiliated with the Reds. At least one poster thought this an illogical assumption.

If you are referring to me, I didn't say it was an illogical assumption, simply an undocumented one.

In light of the Bangkok Post's additional information provided, it's no longer undocumented.

Any intelligent and/or logical person reading the news even before this article would find the odds of him not being affiliated with the Reds highly unlikely. Since I never said the news reported he was a Red Shirt (before or now) and not sure why you felt a need to defend that the news didn't report he was a Red ... especially in replying to a post I made to make clear the news didn't report such an event. And by the way, the BKK news article still HAS NOT reported he was a Red. It simply stated the initials of his website happen to be connected to the UDD. So, basically we are still making an assumption ... seems some of us were just easily able to this assumption with less facts.

[Buchholz]

Thai at Heart

I wasn't in any way linking the fact he is a Red to suggest it strengthens this case. I simply speculated earlier that because he was accused of LM and resided in Isan that I was fairly certain it would turn out he was affiliated with the Reds. At least one poster thought this an illogical assumption.

If you are referring to me, I didn't say it was an illogical assumption, simply an undocumented one.

In light of the Bangkok Post's additional information provided, it's no longer undocumented.

Any intelligent and/or logical person

doesn't jump to conclusions based on such inconclusive evidence, but knock yourself out. I'm through with the issue.

[atsiii]

Did I miss something in the news? Were not the alleged illegal activities performed in 2007 when this man was living in Colorado? I thought that is what I read in Time. Has that changed? It seems an important point to clarify. Was he arrested for something he did in Thailand? Or was he arrested in Thailand for something he did in 2007 while living as a US citizen in Colorado--where what was allegedly done was not in any way illegal? Has this point been documented?

Thanks!

[rubl]

Just like some UDD leaders before the jailed Thai-American Joe Gordon seems to have problems with the Thai prison system

"Imprisoned U.S./Thai Citizen Joe Gordon Denied Access to Adequate Medical Treatment, Enters Thailand as U.S. Citizen

Thu, 09/06/2011 - 18:10 | by prachatai

Lisa Gardner

Joe Gordon wears glasses in the style of John Lennon. They accentuate a sense of his wide-eyed disbelief, at the turn of events that should find him here. "I sleep between men" he says "on the concrete. When I wake up I can barely move.""

http://www.prachatai3.info/english/node/2576?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+prachataienglish+(Prachatai+in+English)

[Nisa]

Just like some UDD leaders before the jailed Thai-American Joe Gordon seems to have problems with the Thai prison system

"Imprisoned U.S./Thai Citizen Joe Gordon Denied Access to Adequate Medical Treatment, Enters Thailand as U.S. Citizen

Thu, 09/06/2011 - 18:10 | by prachatai

Lisa Gardner

Joe Gordon wears glasses in the style of John Lennon. They accentuate a sense of his wide-eyed disbelief, at the turn of events that should find him here. "I sleep between men" he says "on the concrete. When I wake up I can barely move.""

http://www.prachatai...atai+in+English)

If this is all he has to complain about (according to the article) while being in jail in a developing country I would think he should feel blessed ....

"In the prison, I have to go through the bureaucracy of getting medication; it takes a long time, and many approvals. And by the time I do… I honestly don't trust what I'm being given."

Bureaucratic barriers further complicate these provisions. "By the time I have a chance ask for (medication)," he says, "to get the prescription, then to get it filled, it just takes such a long time. It's almost impossible!"

"I sleep between men" he says "on the concrete. When I wake up I can barely move."

[hermespan]

Does a moderator care to comment on why this forum has its own version of les majeste enforcement, and on a related note, forbidding posting of links? Is it a commercial or legal reason, or both?

[moe666]

Is he related to the last american citizen of Thai heritage who has gotten in trouble over this. Just donot do it its not worth it.

[jerrysteve]

The corrupt Thais do enough on their own to on a daily basis to Undermine Their Own Monarchy which is what Lese Majesty is.They do not need any help from and the ex-priminister Thaskin with his cronies partners in crime heads the list.

anyone from the outside to do that.

What Hypocrasy.

[jerrysteve]

As a foreigner in another country, it is important to remind oneself you are in a large sense representitive of your own country kind of like being a diplomat.

Showing respect is a must, mutually exclusive of whatever your own personal feeling are. Not to do so is simply asking for trouble.