The Music Is Over

[Beetlejuice]

I believe this shows that the Thais are afraid of us and want to keep the minuscule population of farangs living here firmly pressed under their thumbs.

I would call this an acute form of paranoia or the big bad white man is going to take us over syndrome.

I fully agree that the Thais should try and reserve Thai culture and to protect their way of life from too many Western influences, but this latest so called clamp down is, way, way, way over the top.

Considering that most of the entertainment sector of Chiang Mai city is probably farang owned one way or another, I do not know why these jobs worth just don’t close down the whole lot and done with it. Because the situation certainly appears to be heading that way.

[SamuiRes]

During the Koh Samui Music Festival in 2005 every single performer and member of the production team had work permits, even if they were only here for two or three days. That was over two hundred people. It was a simple process agreed with the Labour Department where they were given certain specific information and passport copies of each person. The only strange part of it was that the accompanying photos had a requirement that they had to be wearing a jacket, shirt and tie - including the women. It is really a matter of knowing and complying with the law. How that applies to a tourist jamming is though something the authorities do need to sort out without a doubt.

[JoKaew]

Remember Chiang Mai Fest, at the beginning of April, just in between the two major arrests.  80 % of foreigners were performing, and none of them had a work permit.  The Bigger Jigger Band got the flight and the hotel as well as food for  their performance. And they earned it. But they certainly had no work  permit.<br> But this was a festival to promote Chiang Mai, and therefore it was  alright to "use" foreigners to perform. Gives it an international touch.<br> But within the local scene foreigners are not welcome to jam or even play a gig for free. PARADOX, isn't it.<br> <br> Since years the authorities try to make the enjoyment of staying in  Thailand more and more questionable. This should be made more popular  all around the world, so others who may think to come and spend their  money here will think twice about it. <br> <br> So tell it to all your friends, write it in your blog and website and if  possible inform the international press about it. Don't moan in this  forum, than it is only for us a good way to communicate, but nobody  really is interested in our personal meanings. We need facts to present,  and than maybe the Thai authorities will think about this cases twice.<img src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=""><br clear="all">

Edited June 3, 2011 by JoKaew

[ableguy]

Right on folks, the ministry of crackdowns strikes again

[MILT]

ya this is informative but i'm not sure if it is correct outside Chang Mai.

i have heard from many sources that volunteer work does not violate the Alien Work Act.

you cannot do work that a Thai can get paid for. Thai's don't do volunteer work.

Uh Ya they do. I know many many Thais that do so much volunteer work. NGO's to say that Thais don't do volunteer work is absolutely inaccurate.

[wolfmanjack]

This may sound arrogant,but show me a Thai musician, who can do a better job than me!!! very hard to find my friends, not only are we artists,we are specialized entertainers,making people feel great and that's the name of the game,people feel great in a place ,they come back!

You make it sound like you are Van Halen of someone of similar talent.

[dunkin2012]

very impressive statement!!!!!

Vanessa May is half Thai / Chinese!!!! do you know her? Do you know how hard to play Violin?

besides, we have been talkin' about jamming at a venue, that is in Public.

from your comment, I assume that you can tune most musical instruments. what is the standard guitar tuning then? middle C ? .... what is no sharp no flat?

many Thai groups in walking street ,Pattaya. I know them ... Excellent skills though

-----do you think you are keith urban?

Yeh! Lets give it up for Vanessa May. There are always exceptions to the rule and I'd wager it is the Chinese in her that causes her to excel, as they are often amazing musicians.

And I've yet to hear any Thai group on Walking Street who doesn't make my ears hurt, and I've been here for a long time. Of course if you're drunk, I'm sure they ALL sound great. Maybe they sound better if you know them? The best bands I've heard in Pattaya are mostly made of foreigners.

Sure, here and there I come across some talent in Thailand, as do we all, but it really is the exception to the rule. Most of them seem to literally be tone deaf, which I find most bizarre considering their language is based on tones.

To answer your "who do you think you are" question, I attended Berklee and majored in music theory and composition, where I later taught for six years. An injury ended my music career, as I no longer have full control of two of my fingers on my left hand.

Next.

Yep..Yah are invited to Walking street, Pattaya. (in that area) y0u are correct. however, had seen a couple of kids holding acoustic guitars and screechin' on the street.....

i guess Russian lyrics?.

have a word with 'em for a while you can judge how good they are at music and vice versa.

a distinctive musical college's graduate! wouldn't be a problem then.

Probably, clue 'em in on how to tune properly then

how accurate and easy these days with digital tuners!!

BDDDDD's for iris........Don't forget DADAAE? EADGBE?

gun 'n roses - tuned down one whole step.... though

the edge - always messed up with the tuning in concerts

metallica - tuned down half step in S&M

Have ya been ..? Play by ears?

Edited June 3, 2011 by dunkin2012

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Remember Chiang Mai Fest, at the beginning of April, just in between the two major arrests.  80 % of foreigners were performing, and none of them had a work permit.  The Bigger Jigger Band got the flight and the hotel as well as food for  their performance. And they earned it. But they certainly had no work  permit.<br> But this was a festival to promote Chiang Mai, and therefore it was  alright to "use" foreigners to perform. Gives it an international touch.<br> But within the local scene foreigners are not welcome to jam or even play a gig for free. PARADOX, isn't it.<br> <br> Since years the authorities try to make the enjoyment of staying in  Thailand more and more questionable. This should be made more popular  all around the world, so others who may think to come and spend their  money here will think twice about it. <br> <br> So tell it to all your friends, write it in your blog and website and if  possible inform the international press about it. Don't moan in this  forum, than it is only for us a good way to communicate, but nobody  really is interested in our personal meanings. We need facts to present,  and than maybe the Thai authorities will think about this cases twice.<img src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=""><br clear="all">

Hi, don't know if it's true or not, but the Labour Department guy interviewed mentioned the Chiang Mai Fest as a good example of a group that asked his permission before the festival and were therefore granted it and were fully legitimate.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Sorry, just to clarify, it wasn't printed in the article, but was what he also said in the interview. Sorry.

[Arkady]

I got caught up in this kind of stuff. My wife owns a restaurant and I go by for coffee and to talk to the customers. One morning I was sitting behind the counter drinking coffee and checking my email and up came immigration and arrested me saying "Because we had a complaint from Thais regarding illegal work activity. We (immigration police) are compelled to act."

Notice it mentions this in the story.

I showed them when they walked up the email on the computer to no avail. Locked up and booked. The rest of the story I can't talk about.

Moral of the story. Watch out for jealous business owners.

Obviously you are not in prison at the moment and you haven't mentioned being deported and blacklisted. So it sounds like you have got off relatively lightly. Just trawling TV for a few minutes will reveal that many foreigners have been arrested in bars or restaurants they have set up in nominee Thai names. Some have even been arrested while just sitting at a table in the customers' area. But sitting or standing behind the counter is like handing your head to them on a plate. Perhaps you should apply for a Darwin award.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Arkady

[sausageandmash]

Not sure Thailand would be the best place for that kind of music anyway.

i have a plan to end up in chiang mai and open a shop selling alternative music and t-shirts and hopefully get international diy punk bands up there to play. sounds like it may not be a good idea anymore!

[Arkady]

Does the City Life reporter, Jane Witcombe, who interviewed the head of the Chiang Mai work permit department and wrote the article, have a work permit or is she Thai?

[sausageandmash]

I put a Thai/Filipina band together nearly a year ago in Bangkok. We are playing 4 nights a week in 2 different venues.

One night we filled in for another band in soi Cowboy, who couldn't make it. As I'm playing the drums next to a massive window, I'm very exposed to people outside walking around. Within 10 minutes I had kids selling flowers, lottery salesmen, food vendors and mamasans gawping at me from outside (obviously never seen a white man playing drums before). That's when I decided to get a work permit.

Musicians visas and work permits differ completely from regular ones.

Firstly, musos only get 6 month work permits and 4 month visas. However, you can add more than one venue to the work permit, as long as you inform the Labour dept.

lets say i want to get a workpermit to play at the bars,pubs etc.

should i get it renewed or changed every night i have a gig ?

as far as i know theres only one employer at the time in your workpermit

anyone knows?

[RedQualia]

1. Definition

"Alien" means a naturalperson who is not of Thai nationality; " Work "means to engage in work by

exerting energy or usingknowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

This is the law - includes volunteer and online 'work' - and Tourist Police - did you read that? and Citylife could be fined 100,000 per musician for helping Japan? it's madness

Wow... Looks like I should have gotten a work permit before I opened that interest bearing savings account down at the local Thai bank.

[stingray]

So, next year on the Pattaya Music Festival with many thentousend peaple listening to them, they gonna arrest all the foreign musicians, groups and D Js ? I gess they move the music festival in another country and the income goes there as well.

They want all the tourists listen their local music. Not my favorites at all.

[62strat]

I have never heard of a single case of anyone arrested or fined for getting up on stage to play a few songs, anywhere else in the world. It must make immigration officers swell with pride with the wonderful disservice they are doing for the ' Land of Smiles' reputation . Of course admitting it is a mistake to frighten tourists who love to travel and spend money in Thailand would cause loss of face, and no matter the cost to others it will always be justified. Having non-Thais play music even for free is indeed a severe problem...maybe the Army should help them enforce this with tanks......

[lukestyles]

How can a musician who is jamming for chicken change and free beer be expected to pay the 50,000 baht to acquire the 'b' visa and permit then employ four Thai staff and cover the tax on a 50,000Baht salary? A musician is not a rich businessman, the work permit requirements are aimed at wealthy foreign investors and are set up to discourage people like musicians and DJs who might be living on a budget.They either make it easier and cheaper to work legally or they openly declare Thailand as a foreign musician/DJ free zone.

It's crazy. Why would a guitarist jamming in a boozer need four Thai staff and have to pay tax on earnings he couldn't realistically earn with some casual jamming? It's so expensive and difficult to get a Thai work permit the venues will not do it and even if they did that would only mean the musicians could work in one bar not take their music on the road thus maximise their earnings to cover their hefty tax burden.

If they want to encourage music and culture in Thailand permits for creative people should be a lot easier to attain and they should be taxed on their income not taxed on a flat minimum of 50,000 baht a month. Also why is it more expensive for certain nationalities to be legal than others? The Thai work permit system penalises people who are from certain nations and they are all aimed at rich investors who are starting businesses not musicians, artists or designers.

They either tailor the work permit system to allow expat musicians, DJs and artists to ply their trade or they declare Thailand a no go zone for foreign entertainers.

The current set up is wide open to corruption and closes the door on creative people who want to live in Thailand on a budget. If I'm wealthy and I want to open yet another busy go go bar, time share business or high end resort then the work permit system is relatively easy and cheap but if I'm just a bloke with a guitar then I can forget about it. It's quite plain that Thai immigration and employment law is designed to encourage big money investors and discourage the average joe on a budget. Only the lucky few musicians, vocalists and DJs are wealthy so it is as plain as the nose on my face that the Thai authorities don't want foreign performers here just more wealthy suits in condos and on the golf course.

The work permit requirements are just a blunt way of saying "If you have ample money to invest in Thailand you are welcome if you don't piss off"

I know breaking the law is never correct but when they make it so difficult to be legal people are bound to try to find ways around it. It's just human nature. In the current set up it's easier for a foreigner to legally work for a time share scam stealing peoples money and bothering tourists than it is for a performer to do something constructive by bringing their craft to a bar for some free beer and a couple of thousand baht.

Scammers can afford the Thai staff and the tax on the 50,000 most performers can not.

[lukestyles]

tell me if these guys offer monthly fixed payment to these scumbags - will there still be the raid? .......

would say "nope"!!!!!!

The thing is the venue can grease the palm of the local police but that wont stop immigration swooping down and arresting everyone if they get a tip off.

I have even seen the local police take payment then come back a few hours later to close the night down and threaten everyone with arrest because a local with contacts higher up in the police was jealous at the amount of customers in the bar so requested that the police snuff out the night. And this was in a 5 star resort so it wasn't like they were dealing with the average shmo without money and contacts.

I have also seen a bar pay the police to be left alone but the resident DJ was jealous of a foreigner getting his gig so immigration was tipped off and arrests were made. No convictions though just money with menaces. Monkey house or dough.

There really is no sure fire way of ensuring you don't get clobbered by the authorities, even with all of the relevant permits in place and bribes payed, a jealous neighbour can put the kibosh on precedings by making up a story about drug use on the premises or just by having better contacts than you.

So not only is the law being used to discourage foreign entertainers it is used as a tool of revenge by competing businesses and performers.

[lukestyles]

I'd guess that most Chicago mic nights involve performances by US citizens, or those with permits to do so. If a Thai with a USA tourist visa gets up, sings, the crowd ask for more and he sings again, hey, that's work and he's breaking his visa. No difference here to that scenario.

But ultimately, I can't argue with your point. If the Thai authorities believe that playing music for free in a bar is 'work', then you have to have a 'work permit'.

Your permit is only valid as long as you earn and can pay tax on 50,000 baht or over a month. If you are working for free then you are not earning the required 50,000 baht a month therefore your permit is not valid and you are officially breaking the law.

[blabla1]

I'm just a regular musician who can put on a show, but this is not about me, it's meant as an example!!!!

This may sound arrogant,but show me a Thai musician, who can do a better job than me!!! very hard to find my friends, not only are we artists,we are specialized entertainers,making people feel great and that's the name of the game,people feel great in a place ,they come back!

You make it sound like you are Van Halen of someone of similar talent.

[FrankieDimes]

I need to forward this to the Command in Chief, U.S. Embassy Bangkok, Commander, Pacific Command for the U.S. Miliarty. I know the personnel from the United States military do not have work permits, when they voluntarily rehab Thai schools, orphanages and other such places. They even perform medical and dental procedures on Thai citizens. According to this news article all of that is illegal and everyone is subject to arrest, is this correct or is there some type of other agreement?

[Sunbelt Asia]

I need to forward this to the Command in Chief, U.S. Embassy Bangkok, Commander, Pacific Command for the U.S. Miliarty. I know the personnel from the United States military do not have work permits, when they voluntarily rehab Thai schools, orphanages and other such places. They even perform medical and dental procedures on Thai citizens. According to this news article all of that is illegal and everyone is subject to arrest, is this correct or is there some type of other agreement?

Military personnel are here on agreement with the Thai government and would fall under one of the following rules:

Exemptions from the Work Permit requirement are granted to the following people:

• Representatives of member countries and officials of the United Nations and its specialized agencies
  
• Persons who perform duties on missions in the Kingdom under an agreement between the government of Thailand and a foreign government or international organization
  
• Persons who are specially permitted by the Government of Thailand to enter and perform any duty or mission in the Kingdom.
  

[sunbelt][/sunbelt]

[Beetlejuice]

The Last Time

Hope you enjoy the video, I am risking a prison sentence here for uploading this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzZHmHqEE7k&feature=related

[biplanebluey]

Under this legislation, the Department of Employment will consider whether the 'work' could be undertaken by a Thai, whether the foreigner is appropriately qualified and whether the job fits the needs of Thailand. After these factors are considered, the individual requires an organisation such as a company or charity to sponsor them.

"Normally" this is not an issue, however, if they make it an issue who decides to what degree and quality standard the 'work' would be undertaken by a Thai.

What happened to some healthy competition and may the best win?

OK well perhaps it should be an issue---there's nothing new about a country looking after its indiginous population. Many yrs ago[over 40 actually] i emigrated to New Zealand and had to go to the NZ Embassy in London and was very carefully vetted.I had to get a sponsor before i could even be considered then all the above requirements had to be met.--------Do we need someone with your qualifications?------Can a local do the job just as easy ? --------Is your job title on our list?------and so it went on-----I was one of the lucky ones,but i remember a few people that were refused entry. On another tack,i also agree that it would be very difficult to differentiate between those getting payed and those just doing it for fun. Perhaps they should all get payed and apply for a 15 day permit every fortnight. I suspect most if not all of the ''Freebees'' would be happy to accept a small renumeration ,especially as they would be getting money for doing something they love doing for nothing----Dougal

[andrew55]

So sad.

Just driven back from a trip to beautiful Chiang Mai and it's true. I'll sure miss these nights with such great music mixes, as will many. Certainly by the local Thai muso's that I spoke to. They were the saddest. It was like the day the music died and they were gunna go sing dirges in the dark.

I think the posts about paid and general volunteer work is complex. But playing a song or 2 for no money at a music bar or folk club?

Law's the law? Seems that this is an individual crusade by the interviewed official. Why? He's saying that the only problem is that people aren't asking 'him'. He says 'he's' a reasonable man. He seems to be after some face. Respect from the other departments that he sees as inferior. Is he running for election per chance? I don't understand the reasoning and why a crack-down rather than letting those offending venues know. I don't think that there's enough money to be donated from mostly retired musicians - they're still paying for Woodstock after all. I would imagine that someone in this gentleman's position would have more lucrative entrepreneurial pursuits than thIs.

Gotta be more to it. Maybe not.

[Chainsaw]

A lot of &lt;deleted&gt; written here by posters.

If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.

I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.

You're right about &lt;deleted&gt;, and it's mainly from you!!

So you're saying that if a musician (of any nationality) walked into a pub in the UK and decided to get up and jam with whoever was playing, they would 1st have to apply for a 'performing visa'? - Utter &lt;deleted&gt;!

Financing their stay by playing music? In Thailand? Get real!

[Chainsaw]

you think a single member of the entire cast of Hangover II had a work permit?

yes, i do. as does every major performer who performs in thailand.

But what about the farang 'extras'? Do they all get work permits?

[vediovis]

It seems some of us forgot the laws are not the same everywhere in the planet.

There's no point to compare immigration rules in Europe & US and those in Thailand.

If the Visa can be more difficult to obtain in Europe & the US, they are much more permissive and less restrictive. Once you have a Visa in these countries, you can do almost everything you want. Nobody will never tell you an anything if you jam in a pub or if you start a band to play sometimes in some festival. In case of immigration control, they will check you have your Visa. If the activity starts to be big, the tax department will eventually check you pay your taxes but will absolutely not care about your Visa (we have a lot of clandestine people paying their taxes in France and this doesn't seem to hurt anybody). And if you marry somebody from there, it's not long time before you can do absolutely everything a local citizen can do _for life_ (buy land, work, open business, teach, organise conferences, etc...).

My wife is Thai, and we married last year. She can become French if she wish, the process is not very long and not very difficult. She is absolutely not interested in the process, but it is totally possible for her to go to live in France where my government will take care of her absolutely like they will take care of me (healthcare, social protection, sponsored trainings, etc...). After a few years, they will even give her a French passport and she will become a bi-national. This is true and not not only for France. If you go to London, Oslo, New York, San Francisco, you will notice people from _everywhere_ working and living together. This is the modern world, and this is where things are heading.

If you want to compare, I'm married to a Thai national and a father (we have a wonderful daughter). To have the marriage Visa took months and it was quite difficult and expensive. My situation here is totally precarious as I have to show big money every year. More, I don't have the right to do anything here. If my foreign business crashes these months, I will have to leave (where???) and to abandon my family here. I know I am a guest here, but I made family. I hope one day they will look at me as a very big friend, like my country looks at my wife. Reciprocity ? Maybe one day. Let's dream.

All this to say Visa rules and immigration laws are not equivalent everywhere. There's no point to compare things we cannot compare. It's easier for westerners to spend short times in Asia than for Asian people to spend short time in the western world. To invite during 2 weeks my future wife and her mother in France for the family party was real pain, when I just have to show my passport in Bangkok airport to be granted 30 days renewable. This is absolutely true. But to go deeper than tourist life is very harsh here, even when you made a mixed family and shared your blood to make a child.

I'm an average musician and I found wonderful performers here. I love, sometimes, jamming with them on stage for a few songs. It's big fun, the stage is nice, and they are so good than everything sounds strong and easy with them. I always pay 500 Baht in the tip box, and I have my drink bill like any customer. We became friends, and I join them on stage only when they call me. But, even with all these precautions, I am always afraid to face a big problem everytime I play "Breaking the law" on stage with them, if you see what I mean. This is a restriction very difficult to understand for me as I am only looking for a bit of fun to remind me I'm not dead yet, and I don't take anything from anyone. And let's be honest, some of these guys went to spend time in the US or in Sweden, they met people and had fun with their instrument in pubs there, and nobody never told them anything as they had their entry agreement.

So let's compare only what is comparable.

Edited June 4, 2011 by vediovis

[sausageandmash]

That is NOT how you get a musicians' work permit. It's all about who you know, not what you know.

<br />How can a musician who is jamming for chicken change and free beer be expected to pay the 50,000 baht to acquire the 'b' visa and permit then employ four Thai staff and cover the tax on a 50,000Baht salary? A musician is not a rich businessman, the work permit requirements are aimed at wealthy foreign investors and are set up to discourage people like musicians and DJs who might be living on a budget.They either make it easier and cheaper to work legally or they openly declare Thailand as a foreign musician/DJ free zone. <br /><br />It's crazy. Why would a guitarist jamming in a boozer need four Thai staff and have to pay tax on earnings he couldn't realistically earn with some casual jamming? It's so expensive and difficult to get a Thai work permit the venues will not do it and even if they did that would only mean the musicians could work in one bar not take their music on the road thus maximise their earnings to cover their hefty tax burden. <br /><br />If they want to encourage music and culture in Thailand  permits for creative people should be a lot easier to attain and they should be taxed on their income not taxed on a flat minimum of 50,000 baht a month. Also why is it more expensive for certain nationalities to be legal than others? The Thai work permit system penalises people who are from certain nations and they are all aimed at rich investors who are starting businesses not musicians, artists or designers. <br /><br />They either tailor the work permit system to allow expat musicians, DJs and artists to ply their trade or they declare Thailand a no go zone for foreign entertainers. <br /><br />The current set up is wide open to corruption and closes the door on creative people who want to live in Thailand on a budget. If I'm wealthy and I want to open yet another busy go go bar, time share business or high end resort then the work permit system is relatively  easy and cheap but if I'm just a bloke with a guitar then I can forget about it. It's quite plain that Thai immigration and employment law is designed to encourage big money investors and discourage the average joe on a budget. Only the lucky few musicians, vocalists and DJs are wealthy so it is as plain as the nose on my face that the Thai authorities don't want foreign performers here just more wealthy suits in condos and on the golf course.<br /><br />The work permit requirements are just a blunt way of saying "If you have ample money to invest in Thailand you are welcome if you don't piss off"<br /><br />I know breaking the law is never correct but when they make it so difficult to be legal people are bound to try to find ways around it. It's just human nature. In the current set up it's easier for a foreigner to legally work for a time share scam stealing peoples money and bothering tourists than it is for a performer to do something constructive by bringing their craft to a bar for some free beer and a couple of thousand baht.<br /><br />Scammers can afford the Thai staff and the tax on the 50,000 most performers can not.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

[lukestyles]

@sausageandmash

What you are saying?

That you can't apply for an entertainers work permit unless you know the right people?

If that is the case then I was right, officially the only way to get a work permit (without knowing the right people) is by starting a business which involves employing 4 Thai staff and paying tax on a 50,000baht salary which is too expensive for most musicians etc

Edited June 5, 2011 by lukestyles