Working Legally In Thailand As A Foreigner

[Mestizo]

Passing this along as I thought it may be of interest to other readers.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=148917638513896 (You'll need to be logged in Facebook to see it).

***Note, I am in no way connected with this, simply passing it along.

-Mestizo

The Public Relations Department (PRD) of the Royal Thai Government invites you to a forum about Immigration Law and Legal Implications of Working in Thailand as a Foreigner.

FREE dinner from 6 PM to 7 15 PM. FORUM from 7 30 PM to 9 PM.

THE FREE DINNER IS RESERVED FOR THE FIRST 60 SUBSCRIBERS. YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE BY CLICKING THE ACCEPT BUTTON OR BY SENDING ME AN EMAIL AT DIMONTEFOSCARINO(at)HOTMAIL.COM

Would you like the newest and most up to date information about Immigration Law or working legally as a foreigner in Thailand? Come and talk to the Chief of Immigration and a representative of the Chiang Mai Immigration Office. There will be an information speech and afterwards you can ask questions.

This is an ideal chance to join and interact with your favorite Helping Hand hosts Jaroonroat Krasaesuk and Wouter Van der Stichel, also known as Khun Tom and Khun Naam. The forum will be broadcast live on 93.25 FM, Radio Thailand, Helping Hand Radio Show.

All people interested in this topic, both Thai nationals and foreigners, are welcome to join this FREE event.

[TongueThaied]

What is the date of this event?

[3billygoats]

I think the date is probably that one in the (sub)heading!

Now we both have an extra and unnecessary post.

[mallmagician]

When accessing tv from a mobile device, sub headings are not shown.....

[Nienke]

Date event: Tuesday, June 7,2011

Location: Imperial Mae Ping Hotel, Sridonchai Road, Chiang Mai, Thailand

There is already quite some interest in and people attending this event.

[Yelly]

Just an FYI: the dinner is booked up!

[Thighlander]

It's a trick. No, probably only a 20% chance.

[Loaded]

It's a trick. No, probably only a 20% chance.

Do you ever make a post without accusing people of lying, cheating, scamming or being con-artists?

[elektrified]

l

Edited June 5, 2011 by elektrified

[Konini]

It's a trick. No, probably only a 20% chance.

Do you ever make a post without accusing people of lying, cheating, scamming or being con-artists?

I've registered and added my husband who is sure there's no such thing as a free dinner and it has to be a time share-type scam. Please tell me he's wrong. I really just want to know about our options on visas. The free dinner isn't an issue, I just wanted to make sure we got a place at the forum.

[Thighlander]

20% chance it's a trick--80% chance it's a scam. You might be getting warm with the timeshare thing. Thai government buying dinner for farang needing work? :lol:

[Thighlander]

Now after Midnight.....Maybe they rounded them up.....

[NancyL]

It was a very good evening. I thought there might be a huge crowd coming only for the free dinner, but I only saw a couple of cases where people loaded up their plates, wolfed down their food and shagged out of there before the program started. About 100 people, in total, were there, many coming just for the program at 7:30 pm.

It was a live broadcast of the Helping Hands radio show. You could have listened live on 93.25 FM or on the internet. This is a nightly show where (normally) they play music (recorded, not live), chat in English and take call-in questions. One of the goals of the show is to help Thai people with their English-language skills. They claimed that all the volunteer broadcasters have work permits.

The two guests (whose names I didn't get; I'm sorry) were head guys at the Labor Dept and Immigration Dept. All the questions had been compiled in advance, apparently from submissions from Facebook and the website for the radio show. They covered a wide range of topics, ranging from foreigners forming companies, to retirement visas to the all-important topic of "volunteer" musicians performing in bars. There was no opportunity for questions from the audience, but the radio guests would tell when something they said caused a stir among the crowd -- like the pronouncement from the honcho from the Immigration Dept that people here on O visas with 12-month retirement extensions (popularly known as "retirement visas") can obtain work permits for volunteer work. No problem from the view of the Immigration dept. ("Whoa, then why do we have to sign a statement at Immigration that we won't do volunteer work when we get that 12-month extension", I would have loved to ask)

So, no there weren't really any strings attached to that offer of a free meal. I still don't know why they offered it or who paid for it. So far, I've suffered no ill effect from the food, so I think everything was OK. I think they could have secured a crowd without the enticement of a free meal. But, I think I'll listen to the radio show more often in the future, especially now that I know I can listen over the internet and avoid the lousy radio reception we seem to have.

[Thighlander]

Did they by chance cover any new information or anything that most didn't already know?

[NancyL]

Yes, they did cover some "new" material. Obviously, the entire concept that you need a WP to do volunteer labor was news to some of the people in attendence because they fill their days by helping others for various charities without a WP.

A couple of points were "new" to me, i.e. more explanation on the rule that if you hold a retirement extension you can do "one-off" volunteer projects, provided the labor dept is notified and the work is for less than 15 day. The Labor dept guy suggested that foreigners could use this provision to stage some charity concerts at Thapae Gate. He also said someone can do consulting work over the internet for overseas clients without a WP. The example in the question put to him was about a California lawyer who was advising California clients over the internet -- that clearly isn't taking work from a Thai. He said a WP wasn't needed in this case -- causing a bit of a stir in the room. Then there was the Immigration guy who said as far as the Imm. dept was concerned it was OK for people with an O visa and retirement extension to get a WP for volunteer work -- another comment that caused a stir.

I could go on with other examples. You really should have been there. Really. I think it's important for concerned foreigners to continue to show up at these public forums where reps from the Labor dept and Immigration are willing to spend their time explaining the laws. I think they are trying to come up with a compromise whereby all the potential volunteer talent that exists in CM's expat community can be put to use to help make Thailand a better place.

Edited June 8, 2011 by NancyL

[Lobin]

He also said someone can do consulting work over the internet for overseas clients without a WP. The example in the question put to him was about a California lawyer who was advising California clients over the internet -- that clearly isn't taking work from a Thai. He said a WP wasn't needed in this case -- causing a bit of a stir in the room.

Thanks for the information relay NancyL. Unfortunately I was not around to attend the meeting, but was there any more info regards to this item?

Consulting work that is giving specialist advice on business matters resulting in an income being generated? and what are the actual definitions of consultancy?

But from the other topic in visa work permit section work was classified as ""to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits" surely the above example of a lawyer advising his clients IS INDEED engaging in work by exerting his energy and using his knowledge blah blah blah? Or is the issue here that it is exempt due to the fact that it is providing a service to NON THAI clients overseas? Would this be the same for every work over the internet for overseas clients?

my room is currently stirring...

[Mario2008]

The intent of the online working is important in this story and it goes for all online work. it is a non-Thai, staying in Thailand, doing business outside of Thailand. Other than that the person is staying in Thailand, there is no connection to Thailand and no Thais are deprived of employment. So yes, keeping in contact with your business and clients in for instance Norway online is allowed.

But this is just the opinion of the labour office in Chiang Mai.

[LivinLOS]

But this is just the opinion of the labour office in Chiang Mai.

And very much at odds with other depts 'interpretation' of the law.

Apparently they also said theres no such thing as a freelance work permit, when there is.. I knew someone who got one.

This is the essential problem.. Its all vague, and what one guy might think one week, doesnt make it ok to the next guy next week.

[Mapguy]

NancyL's general description is good.

Here's to add one interesting comment made by an additional but not featured Thai speaker who was really not well introduced. He seemed familiar with employment practices, in particular He specifically noted one clear violation of the law, often practiced by foreigners (some retired) without work permits working in real estate . To call themselves "consultants" is clearly against the law.

The hotel hall was packed with those interested in the plight of musicians. A forum thread on this topic has generated much more heat than light on that. The labor official noted how to play and abide by the law and sounded very accommodating. It really makes one wonder if any of the musicians ever bothered to go to the Work Permit office to check that they were eligible for and/or had appropriate work permits. It was also pointed out that the "raids" were generated by complaints from a competing business or businesses and only after visits to check out what was going on in the venues. No musician-hating hit squads stalk the bars.

There was indeed a loud murmur from the crowd when the spokesman from Immigration (Not the top guy there.) once chimed in to say something like, "Community service volunteers on retirement visas can get work permits." This remark was not completely clarified by the Labor Ministry spokesman, but there are genuine efforts being made to try to accommodate genuine volunteer work within the law.

There were other comments of note, but the presentations were not always made smoothly primarily due to some awkward questions, the first one actually about 10 questions and two-pages in length. The handling of the PowerPoint presentation was extremely awkward and really more confusing than supportive of the speakers and the audience. And, of course, lots of people in the audience were often talking when the speakers were talking. As well, a timely opportunity for follow-up questions (not speeches, as some are wont to make) for clarification of remarks would have improved things quite a lot.

The basic set-up (IMHO) was not organisationally a public relations triumph. The PR people from Bangkok organized this? Really ?! The dinner (a polite and fairly routine thing to do was fine), but the venue was clearly too small, and the event was poorly publicised in an untimely way. A key problem was that the friendly radio hosts were willing but not so able, definitely not "moderators," as I believe they should have been, particularly to handle any needs for clarification and help with any follow-up questions, for which there should have been an opportunity. Just to read questions and provide (quite good) simultaneous interpretation were not at all sufficient.

A passing thought about public relations professionalism. Have you ever gone on the web to find comprehensive information on the Ministry of Immigration web site about immigration policy, rules and procedures? One simple question,for a starter: Since the Ministry of Immigration deals with foreigners on questions beyond simple tourism, how much information can anyone access easily in English, Japanese, or any other language than Thai, which is spoken almost exclusively in Thailand?

Edited June 8, 2011 by Mapguy

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The intent of the online working is important in this story and it goes for all online work. it is a non-Thai, staying in Thailand, doing business outside of Thailand. Other than that the person is staying in Thailand, there is no connection to Thailand and no Thais are deprived of employment. So yes, keeping in contact with your business and clients in for instance Norway online is allowed.

But this is just the opinion of the labour office in Chiang Mai.

Another thing is that Thailand is deprived of income tax. If this was a Thai person or company providing the same online service then income tax would be due. Here is a foreigner making use of Thailand's infrastructure by physically being in Thailand, but not paying income tax to pay for some of the stuff around him.

Not saying I'm personally arguing for or against any point of view in this, just stating it as a possible factor.

[NancyL]

Shana from the Chiang Mai Mail was in the audience and did a nice report of the event as posted in this thread

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473613-working-legally-in-thailand-immigration-and-labour-departments-speaks-out/

[Lobin]

The intent of the online working is important in this story and it goes for all online work. it is a non-Thai, staying in Thailand, doing business outside of Thailand. Other than that the person is staying in Thailand, there is no connection to Thailand and no Thais are deprived of employment. So yes, keeping in contact with your business and clients in for instance Norway online is allowed.

But this is just the opinion of the labour office in Chiang Mai.

OK so working online with non Thai customers who are not in Thailand selling a non Thai product allowed in Chiang Mai, opinion of the labour office in Chiang Mai... But that last sentence is the dodgy grey area, as so many people have experienced, not necessarily with working but other situations, it is who you happen to encounter at that exact moment in time when it comes into question and the poo hits the proverbial and what side of the bed he/she might or might not have got out of!

[elektrified]

Excellent reports from NancyL and Mapguy, thank you very much. I had wanted to attend but was in Hang Dong and didn't get back in time.

[Thighlander]

I see no clarification of anything, except for Immigration clearly being able to detain you for taking a shit, if they desire. 280 USD for a one year visa in Cambodia....I think it is worth a look.

[sticklee]

I thought the representative from Dept. of Emp. danced around the questions in a style as to be expected. No specific answer was given to specific questions as asked. The questions presented centred on the issue surrounding the recent arrest of musicians. The answers given were really just quoting current labour laws. No questions were taken from the floor. As to the 'freelance artist work permit' I have completely contradictory information and have an application pending. And who were the guys taking photos of everyone and why?? They didn't get mine.

From Phuket Gazette Issues and Answers..

Phuket Issue and Answer: Do I need a work permit to give horse riding lessons?

Question was in reference to freelance permit for instruction and work on internet-

“In general, foreigners who want to work without forming their own company can apply for a freelance work permit, but I cannot say exactly which types of work will be approved and which will not.

However, just for example, artists, artisans, singers, musicians, technicians, reporters, among others, are some of the types of workers who are usually allowed to work on a self-employed basis.

They need to file the application form and show us “relevant documents” and we will consider approval case-by-case.

If your request is approved, it would be only temporarily, until we can check your tax payment history when you renew your work permit.

For a work permit for horse riding lessons, prepare whatever relevant documents you have, such as any licenses or permits proving you own the horse, photos and details of where the horse is stabled, a plan of which customers you intend to serve, details of the location where you will conduct your lessons and so on. Come in to the office in person to talk with us.

And, if you find any foreigners working without a permit, please let us know by letter or fax.

We will investigate and prosecute any person found breaking the law.

Please call our work permit division for more information at 076-219660-1 ext13 and ask specifically for Khun Boy.

He is the officer who can offer basic information in English and Chinese.”

Friday, April 1, 2011 Noppadol Ployudee, Phuket Provincial Employment Office chief

[NancyL]

The only person I saw taking photos was Steve from CityLife magazine, taking photos for their CityNow! website. You can view them at

http://www.city-now.com/social_scene.php?lang=English&page=1

There are about a dozen posted from the "Helping Hands Forum".

If anyone else was taking photos, I sure didn't see them. Steve is always very good at explaining why he is taking photos and giving you his card if asked by any of his photo subjects. And, of course, he only photographs willing subjects.

[LivinLOS]

The intent of the online working is important in this story and it goes for all online work. it is a non-Thai, staying in Thailand, doing business outside of Thailand. Other than that the person is staying in Thailand, there is no connection to Thailand and no Thais are deprived of employment. So yes, keeping in contact with your business and clients in for instance Norway online is allowed.

But this is just the opinion of the labour office in Chiang Mai.

OK so working online with non Thai customers who are not in Thailand selling a non Thai product allowed in Chiang Mai, opinion of the labour office in Chiang Mai... But that last sentence is the dodgy grey area, as so many people have experienced, not necessarily with working but other situations, it is who you happen to encounter at that exact moment in time when it comes into question and the poo hits the proverbial and what side of the bed he/she might or might not have got out of!

The problem is we need legal to mean an absolute.. and Thais / Asians dont like aboslutes, they like decentralised power and grey areas, it all helps to build fifedoms and power structures for civil servants.

Hence we have this guys sayings its legal, and Phukets guy clearly saying it isnt and we will arrest you.. So your left in the case of still no clearer.

[Loaded]

The problem is we need legal to mean an absolute.. and Thais / Asians dont like aboslutes, they like decentralised power and grey areas, it all helps to build fifedoms and power structures for civil servants.

Very true, but don't underestimate complete and total incompetence as a contributory factor to many decisions taken by people with authority here.