Thai Hospitals On E.Coli Alert

[humqdpf]

I am not in the business of starting flame wars or other such nonsense but you really are far off the mark when it comes to new strains of E Coli or other bacteria.

Yes, people who have been exposed to more common bacteria are more likely to gain resistance to those common bacteria but we are talking about a new version that could be an even bigger killer in SE Asia.

Just because you grow up on a farm in Europe where you will be exposed to much more varieties of bacteria or have been eating street food in Asia all your life does not mean you have any resistance to this new strain.

In fact, the chances are that because SE Asian populations are much more likely to have paracites and to have weakened basic health due to bad diet (especially through ingesting chemicals in Thailand), a new strain could have much higher mortality rates here in SE Asia. If you add the lower standards of food hygiene and other factors related to the food supply chain, this could magnify the mortality rates even more.

This is a joke, Thailand just likes to think it is playing with the big boys. Since when has Thailand imported salad vegetables from Europe?

Europeans live in ultra sanitary conditions, have lost their natural resistance to normal bacteria. Thais grow up in a bacteria rich environment, only westerners get Delhi Belly.

[humqdpf]

As someone who uses alcohol gel and hand washing as part of his job, I have to disagree with you. Alcohol gel should have something like lanolin that helps to protect the skin. There is no point in using alcohol wash as such and I do not know anyone who uses such stuff for long as even 70% alcohol will merely dry and crack the skin and without the gel, there would be nothing to keep it on the skin for long due to the very low boiling point of alcohol.

As e. coli can be spread by hands, it is imperative that people wash their hands and use alcohol gel during such outbreaks. You cannot merely rely on food preparation methods, such as cooking and food preservation methods such as freezing or cooling. We still eat a lot of food raw and it is perfectly possible for humans to transfer e.coli via their hands to others without food being a vector.

While I agree that there is a certain amount of rubbish written about probiotics on the web and elsewhere, your contention that the flora of the GI tract is not bolstered by probiotic suplements but by a varied diet of vegetables, including milk is plainly wrong! Unless you are getting unpasturized milk which I very much doubt, the white stuff is otherwise inert when it comes to bacteria. If we subject to heat everything that we eat (which you seem to propose in your first paragraph), the vegetables and fruit diet will be one that will also be otherwise inert. So where will someone get bacteria from if their gut flora needs bolstering?

The real fact of the matter is that many folks have compromised gut flora due to many reasons - even mild doses of antibiotics can lead to difficulties. Compromised gut flora is such a big problem that one clinic in the UK is actually offering fecal transplant therapy. Although the latter is only to be resorted to when other methods have been exhausted, those other methods involve the use of pribiotic supplements.

Your hypothesis on the spread of an illness which manifests itself with GI disturbances is not correct. The most important vector during an outbreak of e.coli related disease is human. Humans spread the beastie with their hands. Typical handwashing is not effective and alcohol lotions are not effective in the long run. Successful hand washing requires a vigorous wash as per the public health guidelines; 20 seconds with special attention paid to the backs of the hands, wrists, between the fingers and under the fingernails. Alcohol based hand washes used over time dry out the skin and rob it of the essential oils that act as a natural barrier to bacteria and virus attachment. Garlic, chili, sugar added not foods do not prevent the spread of foodborne disease. Heat is what kills off the bacteria, Heat also modifies the chemcial compounds found in "raw" products such as garlic or chili. This is why the magical health properties of garlic are only effective if consumed raw. Who wants to go around eating raw garlic?

Probiotics are now a popular cure-all touted by folks that haven't the slightest clue as to how the human digestive system works, but read something on the internet pushed by a guy calling himself a doctor, but was really a chirpractor. There is no need for bacteria supplements for those that are healthy and have a balanced diet, Unless someone has undergone intensive antiobiotic treatment or chemotherapy, the flora of the GI tract will take care of itself. Every human's gut flora is unique and develops to meet the needs of the host. It is not bolstered by supplements. rather, a varied diet rich in vegetables, legumes and fruits with a dash of dairy will help maintain the balance.

[anterian]

I am not in the business of starting flame wars or other such nonsense but you really are far off the mark when it comes to new strains of E Coli or other bacteria.

Yes, people who have been exposed to more common bacteria are more likely to gain resistance to those common bacteria but we are talking about a new version that could be an even bigger killer in SE Asia.

Just because you grow up on a farm in Europe where you will be exposed to much more varieties of bacteria or have been eating street food in Asia all your life does not mean you have any resistance to this new strain.

In fact, the chances are that because SE Asian populations are much more likely to have paracites and to have weakened basic health due to bad diet (especially through ingesting chemicals in Thailand), a new strain could have much higher mortality rates here in SE Asia. If you add the lower standards of food hygiene and other factors related to the food supply chain, this could magnify the mortality rates even more.

This is a joke, Thailand just likes to think it is playing with the big boys. Since when has Thailand imported salad vegetables from Europe?

Europeans live in ultra sanitary conditions, have lost their natural resistance to normal bacteria. Thais grow up in a bacteria rich environment, only westerners get Delhi Belly.

i think this discussion is at cross purposes, and has drifted slightly off topic. I am sure we are all very informed on epidemiology and E-coli bacteria, including this latest strain. However the basic thread topic is could this strain reach Thailand and affect the people here.

I agree 100% that many SE Asians have lowered resistance to invasive organisms, not just because of bad diet and hygiene but also because their immune systems are under constant attack from disease carry insects such as ticks and mosquitoes.

There seems to be increasing doubt as to what is the vector with this outbreak, first cucumbers, then salads vegetables, now meat, even a suggestion that it escaped from a laboratory. Whilst there have been a few cases in the UK and America, it has been established that in each of these cases they had recently returned from Germany.

Thus we have a virulent strain with a limited locus or origin. Whilst some European produce is exported to Thailand, it is expensive and not a major aspect of Thai consumption. A typical Thai "salad" is one leaf of lettuce Most imported vegetables are from China or Australia. thus if this strain of E-coli should manage to reach Thailand I would expect to see it first manifest in the expat or elite community, these are the people who are most likely to buy expensive imported foods.

[pendragon]

worrying nonetheless

[traveller60]

Wow!!!! I don't believe it. Here is the first good bit of news from Thai visa and no-one has said a word.

Thank you Thai Visa for the news. I have passed this on to my friends. Oh yes I do have some friends. 5555555555555

What good news???

maybe its relevant due to the amount of German people that frequent thailand and could have carried the virus after all its "highly infectious"..... thats where it the new E Coli strain originated ... GERMANY

[traveller60]

Why are so many people so cynical.... and to a large part ignorant.... Since when has Thailand imported fruit and Veg..? was the question.... Well most viruses are actually spread by birds believe it or not... that said this new E Coli is transmittable from Human to Human... so there is every chance that a german visitor "could possibly" be a carrier... Now then look how many german tourists that come to Thailand... So forget the issue of imported Fruit / Veg.... and start thinking about the reality of the problem.... Good of someone to make Thailand aware... forewarned is forearmed

[ableguy]

I am not really sure what exactly is going on E Coli existence is known for more than 200 years. All strains of bacteria are harmless, excepts the one that are developed in human body for more than a month, found in cucumbers I believe total bulshit, but can be found in any toilet, bath tub, goat meat. Resistance of antibiotics, I don't think so. There is 3rd and also 4th generation of antibiotics, come on those can treat gonorrhea and syphilis with single dose, what about bacteria that everybody have had at least once every year.

Read the news Kalseo....this strain does NOT respond to anti-biotics....you believe??? Are you a WHO doctor or NIH doctor....maybe a podiatrist?

Yeah and leave goats out of this, many readers in Chiang Mai area love goats.

[ableguy]

Why are so many people so cynical.... and to a large part ignorant.... Since when has Thailand imported fruit and Veg..? was the question.... Well most viruses are actually spread by birds believe it or not... that said this new E Coli is transmittable from Human to Human... so there is every chance that a german visitor "could possibly" be a carrier... Now then look how many german tourists that come to Thailand... So forget the issue of imported Fruit / Veg.... and start thinking about the reality of the problem.... Good of someone to make Thailand aware... forewarned is forearmed

Right got it, watch out for Germans exiting swampy swinging their cucumbers around

[Scott]

One off-topic post deleted. Let's stay on-topic.

[geriatrickid]

This is a joke, Thailand just likes to think it is playing with the big boys. Since when has Thailand imported salad vegetables from Europe?

Europeans live in ultra sanitary conditions, have lost their natural resistance to normal bacteria. Thais grow up in a bacteria rich environment, only westerners get Delhi Belly.

Your comment has nothing to do with the e. coli strain that is cutting down the young and healthy in Europe. This variant is antibiotic resistant. I can assure you that it is just as deadly in Thais, Indians, and Fijians as it is in Europeans.

Correction: In Germany most of the deceased are women and specially older women. No children and healthy people. The strain never existed before, it's a "fuc_king" result of a rare strain with an central-african strain. German and Chinese

genomists decrypted the DNS the last days. (Spiegel.de)

My statement was that the young and healthy were being afflicted. I did not state children, nor did I specifiy sex groupings. I do read the daily WHO bulletins that pop up on our mail server.

Here is the official tally as of June 3, 2011;

Haemolytic uraemic syndrome (HUS)

As of 03 June at 18:00 CET, Germany had reported 573 cases of HUS (including 12 fatalities): 53 more than the previous day. 70% of cases were in women and 89% in adults aged 20 years or older. The highest attack rates per 100 000 population were in the group aged 20–49 years. Case onset dates ranged from 1 to 31 May.

Enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli (EHEC)

As of 03 June at 18:00 CET, 1428 cases of EHEC infection (without HUS) had been reported in Germany (with 6 fatalities): 215 more than the previous day. 61% of cases were in females and 88% in adults aged 20 years or older. Case onset dates ranged from 1 to 30 May. The Robert Koch Institute emphasized that it was still too early to judge whether the outbreak had peaked.

Yes, women are featured predominately. However, this may be a reflection of the fact that women are more likely to be the people buying the food and preparing it. As well, women tend to be the primary caregiver in domestic health situations and are thus more likely to come in contact with the bacteria. I draw your attention to the 20-49 age group afflicted with HUS. What part of the highest attack rates were in the group aged 20-49 do you mot understand? This is classified as the "young" population. This isn't really a shock as a similar age focus was seen with the last influenza pandemic, although, again one would not expect to see the young and the healthy afflicted to this degree.

The EHEC unofficial age distribution follows a similar distribution as the HUS illness. However, as the age distribution has not been fully compiled, the age distribution data has not been released.

You may wish to reconsider your use of exagerated claims. You did the same thing on the political thread when you claimed that the Bangkok protestors were jacked up on the stuff even though there was no evidence to support that allegation. Please understand that there is a difference between fantasy and reality.

[geriatrickid]

Imported vegetables from Europe are not found in street markets and mobile shops, these carry local grown or Chinese and Australian imports. It is only the large supermarkets that carry European (and Israeli)vegetables , mainly sweet peppers and tomatoes as far as I can see.

So if an outbreak did occur here I would expect to see it amongst the high end customers that can afford imported foods.

Much prepared Thai food is rich in sugar, garlic and chilli, all inimical to bacteria, particularly sugar which disrupt the bacterial cell walls. Curries, particularly Indian curries are high in turmeric, another potent antibacterial (and yeast) agents.

The human gut is a battleground between good and bad bacteria, if you are worried give the good bacteria a helping hand with a daily intake of probiotics such as lactobacillus.

Your hypothesis on the spread of an illness which manifests itself with GI disturbances is not correct. The most important vector during an outbreak of e.coli related disease is human. Humans spread the beastie with their hands. Typical handwashing is not effective and alcohol lotions are not effective in the long run. Successful hand washing requires a vigorous wash as per the public health guidelines; 20 seconds with special attention paid to the backs of the hands, wrists, between the fingers and under the fingernails. Alcohol based hand washes used over time dry out the skin and rob it of the essential oils that act as a natural barrier to bacteria and virus attachment. Garlic, chili, sugar added not foods do not prevent the spread of foodborne disease. Heat is what kills off the bacteria, Heat also modifies the chemcial compounds found in "raw" products such as garlic or chili. This is why the magical health properties of garlic are only effective if consumed raw. Who wants to go around eating raw garlic?

Probiotics are now a popular cure-all touted by folks that haven't the slightest clue as to how the human digestive system works, but read something on the internet pushed by a guy calling himself a doctor, but was really a chirpractor. There is no need for bacteria supplements for those that are healthy and have a balanced diet, Unless someone has undergone intensive antiobiotic treatment or chemotherapy, the flora of the GI tract will take care of itself. Every human's gut flora is unique and develops to meet the needs of the host. It is not bolstered by supplements. rather, a varied diet rich in vegetables, legumes and fruits with a dash of dairy will help maintain the balance.

I guess debating with you is like an atheist debating religion with a believer.

Sugar and salt both kill bacteria by osmotic pressure inside the cell membrane, this is why both have been used as food preservatives for centuries. The gut flora is indeed adapted to the person and his food, this is why a sudden change of diet can disrupt the balance, equally the usual food but imported from a different location.

Probiotics have been researched by more than a chiropractor, they have not been claimed to be a cure-all, other than by some makers, they are accepted as an aid to normalising the gut bacteria when it has been stressed.

With regards to hygiene and transmission, most gut bacterial strains are shared in common by a family, indeed the child's gut becomes populated by its mother. So hygiene is most important when eating outside the home environment.

the main problem with E-coli (and also a useful blessing), it that it can readily exchange DNA with other organisms, (one strain is used to produce insulin). This means it has a high mutation rate and many variants.

You made the statement that "Much prepared Thai food is rich in sugar, garlic and chilli, all inimical to bacteria, particularly sugar which disrupt the bacterial cell walls. Curries, particularly Indian curries are high in turmeric, another potent antibacterial (and yeast) agents". I countered that this in itself was not an effective means of preventing the spread of food borne illness. Sugar is used when preserving items such as fruit and it is added to meat processing for flavouring purposes. The fact that Thai food features high sugar or salt content or even tumeric or curry does not impart some sort of magical protection. If Thai food's high salt and sugar concentration were so magical we would not see foodborne diseases involving Bacillus Cereus, Campylobacter jejuni, Clostridiumbotulinum, Clostridium perfringens, Cryptosporidiumparvum, Giardia lamblia, Hepatitis A, Listeriamonocytogenes, Salmonellosis, Staphylococcus, Shigella, Toxoplasmagondii, and vibrio. E.coli is just one of many food borne related pathogens. Throwing in lots of sugar, salt, garlic, tumeric, curry powder isn't going to prevent "food poisoning", Cooking at high heat is more effective at killing off most food borne pathogens. Steaming fresh vegetables also works.

It seems you are deriving your explanation of cell biology from a grade school text, particularly when it comes to cell biology. What are you on about with with e. coli and DNA exchange with other organisms? It is common knowledge that bacteria can undertake conjugative reproduction across prokaryotic species lines, Every kid that took a basic biology course knows that. Big deal. it is seen with other bacteria. It's just one way of obtaining antibiotic resistance. Your reference to the production of insulin is completely unrelated. You are referencing the process of transformation conducted on a clinical scale. I can assure you that the removal of naked DNA and the multiple steps of refrigerating cells in a CaCl2 solution and repeated heating and processing steps involved in the insulin activity is far removed from normal bacteria reproduction.

Yea, I'm a believer. Probiotics is a silly trend and not needed for healthy people. One might as well eat the poop of other humans to derive a similar benefit.

[Bagwan]

"...suspected of suffering from acute diarrhoea." I wonder what the symptoms are?

Many thanks. A retort that is still exercising my chuckle muscles 10 minutes after reading it.

If you do get 'the runs' then drink lots of clean water to help wash the nasties out of the digestion system. One of the attendant dangers to food poisoning is dehydration so keeping water levels up is beneficial. Agents that 'bind you up' are not a good idea.

[samurai]

You made the statement that "Much prepared Thai food is rich in sugar, garlic and chilli, all inimical to bacteria, particularly sugar which disrupt the bacterial cell walls. Curries, particularly Indian curries are high in turmeric, another potent antibacterial (and yeast) agents". I countered that this in itself was not an effective means of preventing the spread of food borne illness. Sugar is used when preserving items such as fruit and it is added to meat processing for flavouring purposes. The fact that Thai food features high sugar or salt content or even tumeric or curry does not impart some sort of magical protection. If Thai food's high salt and sugar concentration were so magical we would not see foodborne diseases involving Bacillus Cereus, Campylobacter jejuni, Clostridiumbotulinum, Clostridium perfringens, Cryptosporidiumparvum, Giardia lamblia, Hepatitis A, Listeriamonocytogenes, Salmonellosis, Staphylococcus, Shigella, Toxoplasmagondii, and vibrio. E.coli is just one of many food borne related pathogens. Throwing in lots of sugar, salt, garlic, tumeric, curry powder isn't going to prevent "food poisoning", Cooking at high heat is more effective at killing off most food borne pathogens. Steaming fresh vegetables also works.

It seems you are deriving your explanation of cell biology from a grade school text, particularly when it comes to cell biology. What are you on about with with e. coli and DNA exchange with other organisms? It is common knowledge that bacteria can undertake conjugative reproduction across prokaryotic species lines, Every kid that took a basic biology course knows that. Big deal. it is seen with other bacteria. It's just one way of obtaining antibiotic resistance. Your reference to the production of insulin is completely unrelated. You are referencing the process of transformation conducted on a clinical scale. I can assure you that the removal of naked DNA and the multiple steps of refrigerating cells in a CaCl2 solution and repeated heating and processing steps involved in the insulin activity is far removed from normal bacteria reproduction.

Yea, I'm a believer. Probiotics is a silly trend and not needed for healthy people. One might as well eat the poop of other humans to derive a similar benefit.

OMG. We will all die.

[JungleJim]

18 deaths worldwide on 6.000.000.000 people.... time to start to panic...

100.000 people per day die in the world from hunger....

A sobering thought!!! but this figure does seem rather high as that is 1 million deaths from a single cause in 10 days. I know that Africa is suffering terribly on account of extreme poverty and from encountering severe droughts year in, year out, but surely there cannot be this amount of people dying of starvation every day!! can there?? That's horific and unbelievable if true and there is something terribly wrong in our world!!

Sadly, even the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, which monitors nutritional info, puts the number of undernourished people worldwide at just shy of 1 billion with over half coming from Asia and Pacific countries. I've seen other stats that put it much higher. (http://www.fao.org/publications/sofi/en/).

With numbers like that I would speculate that 100,000 per day is surprisingly low. If we take the lower UN figure it means that only 3.5% of these people have to die to reach a figure of 100,000 per day.

The main cause of hunger = poverty. Harmful economic systems are the principal cause of poverty and hunger all over the world.

Yes Steve. There is something terribly wrong with the world when the corporate interests involved in "free (hahahaha) market capitalism" or as most of the world calls it, daylight robbery, trump the nutritional needs of of over 1 billion people. Very ####ing wrong.

[tombkk]

"...suspected of suffering from acute diarrhoea." I wonder what the symptoms are?

Many thanks. A retort that is still exercising my chuckle muscles 10 minutes after reading it.

If you do get 'the runs' then drink lots of clean water to help wash the nasties out of the digestion system. One of the attendant dangers to food poisoning is dehydration so keeping water levels up is beneficial. Agents that 'bind you up' are not a good idea.

Agents binding me up? Would that be the KGB? - scnr

Seriously though, that are these? I was told I should dring a lot of cola, because that's not only liquid it also contains a lot of minerals the body apparently loses when you have a running stomach.

[anterian]

Imported vegetables from Europe are not found in street markets and mobile shops, these carry local grown or Chinese and Australian imports. It is only the large supermarkets that carry European (and Israeli)vegetables , mainly sweet peppers and tomatoes as far as I can see.

So if an outbreak did occur here I would expect to see it amongst the high end customers that can afford imported foods.

Much prepared Thai food is rich in sugar, garlic and chilli, all inimical to bacteria, particularly sugar which disrupt the bacterial cell walls. Curries, particularly Indian curries are high in turmeric, another potent antibacterial (and yeast) agents.

The human gut is a battleground between good and bad bacteria, if you are worried give the good bacteria a helping hand with a daily intake of probiotics such as lactobacillus.

Your hypothesis on the spread of an illness which manifests itself with GI disturbances is not correct. The most important vector during an outbreak of e.coli related disease is human. Humans spread the beastie with their hands. Typical handwashing is not effective and alcohol lotions are not effective in the long run. Successful hand washing requires a vigorous wash as per the public health guidelines; 20 seconds with special attention paid to the backs of the hands, wrists, between the fingers and under the fingernails. Alcohol based hand washes used over time dry out the skin and rob it of the essential oils that act as a natural barrier to bacteria and virus attachment. Garlic, chili, sugar added not foods do not prevent the spread of foodborne disease. Heat is what kills off the bacteria, Heat also modifies the chemcial compounds found in "raw" products such as garlic or chili. This is why the magical health properties of garlic are only effective if consumed raw. Who wants to go around eating raw garlic?

Probiotics are now a popular cure-all touted by folks that haven't the slightest clue as to how the human digestive system works, but read something on the internet pushed by a guy calling himself a doctor, but was really a chirpractor. There is no need for bacteria supplements for those that are healthy and have a balanced diet, Unless someone has undergone intensive antiobiotic treatment or chemotherapy, the flora of the GI tract will take care of itself. Every human's gut flora is unique and develops to meet the needs of the host. It is not bolstered by supplements. rather, a varied diet rich in vegetables, legumes and fruits with a dash of dairy will help maintain the balance.

I guess debating with you is like an atheist debating religion with a believer.

Sugar and salt both kill bacteria by osmotic pressure inside the cell membrane, this is why both have been used as food preservatives for centuries. The gut flora is indeed adapted to the person and his food, this is why a sudden change of diet can disrupt the balance, equally the usual food but imported from a different location.

Probiotics have been researched by more than a chiropractor, they have not been claimed to be a cure-all, other than by some makers, they are accepted as an aid to normalising the gut bacteria when it has been stressed.

With regards to hygiene and transmission, most gut bacterial strains are shared in common by a family, indeed the child's gut becomes populated by its mother. So hygiene is most important when eating outside the home environment.

the main problem with E-coli (and also a useful blessing), it that it can readily exchange DNA with other organisms, (one strain is used to produce insulin). This means it has a high mutation rate and many variants.

You made the statement that "Much prepared Thai food is rich in sugar, garlic and chilli, all inimical to bacteria, particularly sugar which disrupt the bacterial cell walls. Curries, particularly Indian curries are high in turmeric, another potent antibacterial (and yeast) agents". I countered that this in itself was not an effective means of preventing the spread of food borne illness. Sugar is used when preserving items such as fruit and it is added to meat processing for flavouring purposes. The fact that Thai food features high sugar or salt content or even tumeric or curry does not impart some sort of magical protection. If Thai food's high salt and sugar concentration were so magical we would not see foodborne diseases involving Bacillus Cereus, Campylobacter jejuni, Clostridiumbotulinum, Clostridium perfringens, Cryptosporidiumparvum, Giardia lamblia, Hepatitis A, Listeriamonocytogenes, Salmonellosis, Staphylococcus, Shigella, Toxoplasmagondii, and vibrio. E.coli is just one of many food borne related pathogens. Throwing in lots of sugar, salt, garlic, tumeric, curry powder isn't going to prevent "food poisoning", Cooking at high heat is more effective at killing off most food borne pathogens. Steaming fresh vegetables also works.

It seems you are deriving your explanation of cell biology from a grade school text, particularly when it comes to cell biology. What are you on about with with e. coli and DNA exchange with other organisms? It is common knowledge that bacteria can undertake conjugative reproduction across prokaryotic species lines, Every kid that took a basic biology course knows that. Big deal. it is seen with other bacteria. It's just one way of obtaining antibiotic resistance. Your reference to the production of insulin is completely unrelated. You are referencing the process of transformation conducted on a clinical scale. I can assure you that the removal of naked DNA and the multiple steps of refrigerating cells in a CaCl2 solution and repeated heating and processing steps involved in the insulin activity is far removed from normal bacteria reproduction.

Yea, I'm a believer. Probiotics is a silly trend and not needed for healthy people. One might as well eat the poop of other humans to derive a similar benefit.

When I write on a specialist subject I do not assume that everyone reading it is also a specialist., comments like " conjugative reproduction across prokaryotic species lines" I try to avoid, i seek to communicate not to impress. So yes, I do write at a "grade school level". I wonder how many readers had to Google the word prokaryotic?

As to your attack on probiotics, well you are entitled to your opinion, if in your medical expertise you also have a knowledge of the history of medicine you might know that soured milk and live yoghurts have been used to treat upset stomachs since Neolithic times. No doubt the effectiveness was purely psychosomatic from your viewpoint.

[Joop50]

Probiotics as caps and also in the form of (better quality) yoghurt are recommended after an antibiotics cure, just for build up resistance faster. For healty people there seem to be no benefit.

[newermonkey]

People with high COLISTEROL are at higher risk than others

Can you tell me where you got that info from?

[geriatrickid]

I guess debating with you is like an atheist debating religion with a believer.

Sugar and salt both kill bacteria by osmotic pressure inside the cell membrane, this is why both have been used as food preservatives for centuries. The gut flora is indeed adapted to the person and his food, this is why a sudden change of diet can disrupt the balance, equally the usual food but imported from a different location.

Probiotics have been researched by more than a chiropractor, they have not been claimed to be a cure-all, other than by some makers, they are accepted as an aid to normalising the gut bacteria when it has been stressed.

With regards to hygiene and transmission, most gut bacterial strains are shared in common by a family, indeed the child's gut becomes populated by its mother. So hygiene is most important when eating outside the home environment.

the main problem with E-coli (and also a useful blessing), it that it can readily exchange DNA with other organisms, (one strain is used to produce insulin). This means it has a high mutation rate and many variants.

You made the statement that "Much prepared Thai food is rich in sugar, garlic and chilli, all inimical to bacteria, particularly sugar which disrupt the bacterial cell walls. Curries, particularly Indian curries are high in turmeric, another potent antibacterial (and yeast) agents". I countered that this in itself was not an effective means of preventing the spread of food borne illness. Sugar is used when preserving items such as fruit and it is added to meat processing for flavouring purposes. The fact that Thai food features high sugar or salt content or even tumeric or curry does not impart some sort of magical protection. If Thai food's high salt and sugar concentration were so magical we would not see foodborne diseases involving Bacillus Cereus, Campylobacter jejuni, Clostridiumbotulinum, Clostridium perfringens, Cryptosporidiumparvum, Giardia lamblia, Hepatitis A, Listeriamonocytogenes, Salmonellosis, Staphylococcus, Shigella, Toxoplasmagondii, and vibrio. E.coli is just one of many food borne related pathogens. Throwing in lots of sugar, salt, garlic, tumeric, curry powder isn't going to prevent "food poisoning", Cooking at high heat is more effective at killing off most food borne pathogens. Steaming fresh vegetables also works.

It seems you are deriving your explanation of cell biology from a grade school text, particularly when it comes to cell biology. What are you on about with with e. coli and DNA exchange with other organisms? It is common knowledge that bacteria can undertake conjugative reproduction across prokaryotic species lines, Every kid that took a basic biology course knows that. Big deal. it is seen with other bacteria. It's just one way of obtaining antibiotic resistance. Your reference to the production of insulin is completely unrelated. You are referencing the process of transformation conducted on a clinical scale. I can assure you that the removal of naked DNA and the multiple steps of refrigerating cells in a CaCl2 solution and repeated heating and processing steps involved in the insulin activity is far removed from normal bacteria reproduction.

Yea, I'm a believer. Probiotics is a silly trend and not needed for healthy people. One might as well eat the poop of other humans to derive a similar benefit.

When I write on a specialist subject I do not assume that everyone reading it is also a specialist., comments like " conjugative reproduction across prokaryotic species lines" I try to avoid, i seek to communicate not to impress. So yes, I do write at a "grade school level". I wonder how many readers had to Google the word prokaryotic?

As to your attack on probiotics, well you are entitled to your opinion, if in your medical expertise you also have a knowledge of the history of medicine you might know that soured milk and live yoghurts have been used to treat upset stomachs since Neolithic times. No doubt the effectiveness was purely psychosomatic from your viewpoint.

Then by all means include dairy products as part of a balanced diet. Dairy products are part of a balanced diet. Munching down on these probiotic potions is a waste of money and from a cost benefit basis is not needed in healthy subjects and isn't going to help anyone fend of an e.coli related health crisis. Replenishment of human gut flora is an accepted therapy for those that have undergone chemotherapy or strong antibiotic treatment. I made that point earlier and do not dispute its use for those people.

<deleted> do you want me to call bacteria reproduction? It's not a question of impressing , but one of using the proper term. One of the differentiating features of bacteria is the lack of a defined nucleus, hence the use of the term prokaryotic. It's like flipping a coin you know, since animal cells are eukaryotic. 50% chance of getting it right, just like on a school multiple choice question. There;s a big difference between a Robertson head and a Phillips head screwdriver. They might be screwdrivers, but if you need a Roberston, call for a Robertson. What's next, a discussion of mitochondrial dna? I used the appropriate reference as you were pushing pseudo science mumbo jumbo.

Edited June 6, 2011 by geriatrickid

[anterian]

I guess debating with you is like an atheist debating religion with a believer.

Sugar and salt both kill bacteria by osmotic pressure inside the cell membrane, this is why both have been used as food preservatives for centuries. The gut flora is indeed adapted to the person and his food, this is why a sudden change of diet can disrupt the balance, equally the usual food but imported from a different location.

Probiotics have been researched by more than a chiropractor, they have not been claimed to be a cure-all, other than by some makers, they are accepted as an aid to normalising the gut bacteria when it has been stressed.

With regards to hygiene and transmission, most gut bacterial strains are shared in common by a family, indeed the child's gut becomes populated by its mother. So hygiene is most important when eating outside the home environment.

the main problem with E-coli (and also a useful blessing), it that it can readily exchange DNA with other organisms, (one strain is used to produce insulin). This means it has a high mutation rate and many variants.

You made the statement that "Much prepared Thai food is rich in sugar, garlic and chilli, all inimical to bacteria, particularly sugar which disrupt the bacterial cell walls. Curries, particularly Indian curries are high in turmeric, another potent antibacterial (and yeast) agents". I countered that this in itself was not an effective means of preventing the spread of food borne illness. Sugar is used when preserving items such as fruit and it is added to meat processing for flavouring purposes. The fact that Thai food features high sugar or salt content or even tumeric or curry does not impart some sort of magical protection. If Thai food's high salt and sugar concentration were so magical we would not see foodborne diseases involving Bacillus Cereus, Campylobacter jejuni, Clostridiumbotulinum, Clostridium perfringens, Cryptosporidiumparvum, Giardia lamblia, Hepatitis A, Listeriamonocytogenes, Salmonellosis, Staphylococcus, Shigella, Toxoplasmagondii, and vibrio. E.coli is just one of many food borne related pathogens. Throwing in lots of sugar, salt, garlic, tumeric, curry powder isn't going to prevent "food poisoning", Cooking at high heat is more effective at killing off most food borne pathogens. Steaming fresh vegetables also works.

It seems you are deriving your explanation of cell biology from a grade school text, particularly when it comes to cell biology. What are you on about with with e. coli and DNA exchange with other organisms? It is common knowledge that bacteria can undertake conjugative reproduction across prokaryotic species lines, Every kid that took a basic biology course knows that. Big deal. it is seen with other bacteria. It's just one way of obtaining antibiotic resistance. Your reference to the production of insulin is completely unrelated. You are referencing the process of transformation conducted on a clinical scale. I can assure you that the removal of naked DNA and the multiple steps of refrigerating cells in a CaCl2 solution and repeated heating and processing steps involved in the insulin activity is far removed from normal bacteria reproduction.

Yea, I'm a believer. Probiotics is a silly trend and not needed for healthy people. One might as well eat the poop of other humans to derive a similar benefit.

When I write on a specialist subject I do not assume that everyone reading it is also a specialist., comments like " conjugative reproduction across prokaryotic species lines" I try to avoid, i seek to communicate not to impress. So yes, I do write at a "grade school level". I wonder how many readers had to Google the word prokaryotic?

As to your attack on probiotics, well you are entitled to your opinion, if in your medical expertise you also have a knowledge of the history of medicine you might know that soured milk and live yoghurts have been used to treat upset stomachs since Neolithic times. No doubt the effectiveness was purely psychosomatic from your viewpoint.

Then by all means include dairy products as part of a balanced diet. Dairy products are part of a balanced diet. Munching down on these probiotic potions is a waste of money and from a cost benefit basis is not needed in healthy subjects and isn't going to help anyone fend of an e.coli related health crisis. Replenishment of human gut flora is an accepted therapy for those that have undergone chemotherapy or strong antibiotic treatment. I made that point earlier and do not dispute its use for those people.

<deleted> do you want me to call bacteria reproduction? It's not a question of impressing , but one of using the proper term. One of the differentiating features of bacteria is the lack of a defined nucleus, hence the use of the term prokaryotic. It's like flipping a coin you know, since animal cells are eukaryotic. 50% chance of getting it right, just like on a school multiple choice question. There;s a big difference between a Robertson head and a Phillips head screwdriver. They might be screwdrivers, but if you need a Roberston, call for a Robertson. What's next, a discussion of mitochondrial dna? I used the appropriate reference as you were pushing pseudo science mumbo jumbo.

" you were pushing pseudo science mumbo jumbo." thank you for that

" Replenishment of human gut flora is an accepted therapy for those that have undergone chemotherapy or strong antibiotic treatment. " or have suffered a gut population disruption due to illness. There is no harm in drinking a "Yokult" or similar, particularly if you enjoy the drink, and it may be beneficial. Maintaining a car in good condition is cheaper then having it repaired when it breaks down. No one is forcing you to drink lactobacteria, equally no one is forcing you to put oil in your car. People make their own choices.

As to your difference between a Robertson head and a Phillips head screwdriver. I think most people are more familiar with the terms "square drive" and "cross cut drive", neither is accurate, just more "grade school" terminology.

I believe you are a retired doctor, I am a retired science teacher, different audiences need different informative styles. Rather than attacking what you delightfully call my, "pseudo science mumbo jumbo", you could bring your intellect to bear on amplifying my statements for the benefit of those who wish to progress beyond the "grade school level". Incidentally, I am not familiar with this term, I'm just a simple Englishman, just what is "grade school level".

[chuang]

People with high COLISTEROL are at higher risk than others

Can you tell me where you got that info from?

Nowhere...

[metisdead]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered “fair use” and not a violation of copyright.

[OZEMADE]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered "fair use" and not a violation of copyright.

HANOVER, Germany (AFP) - Seed sprouts are suspected of being at the root of a deadly E. coli outbreak which has killed 22 people, mainly in Germany, a regional agriculture minister said on Sunday.

Gert Lindermann, who represents Lower-Saxony, said there was not yet definite proof but a connection had been made "involving all the main outbreaks" of the disease, which has also left more than 2,000 people ill.

News of the possible breakthrough came as the death toll climbed to 22, with the latest figures from the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) adding three victims to the previously

Yahoo7 news Australia http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/9577429/bean-sprouts-might-be-responsible-for-bacteria-officials/

I hope this is correct as it is for all to read.

Further to this post, I stated that I was under the impression that Germany blamed Spain for the E.coli stating that they had supplied crook cuecumbers. i would now be saying that a lot of shopkeepers would be suing germany for the misleading claims.

Edited June 6, 2011 by OZEMADE

[Familyonthemove]

Yes ... bean sprouts seems more likely to me than cucumber. Bean sprouts live in warm, moist conditions polluted water (sounds familiar?) .....and this is ideal for E.coli.

And although there's no way Thailand will import bean sprouts from Germany .... every Thai dish seems to have bean sprouts on it so there could be a home-grown risk.

So if you are imunno ...immunocomp ...... imunowcompr ..... immunocomprami ...... sick ..... perhaps you stay off raw beansprouts?

[tombkk]

I hope this is correct as it is for all to read.

Yes, everything you read in newspapers or on the internet is correct, because it is for all to read.

[Joop50]

No e-coli found in sprouts so far.

[OZEMADE]

I hope this is correct as it is for all to read.

Yes, everything you read in newspapers or on the internet is correct, because it is for all to read.

I was referring to the second post being put in correctly as the first one was removed.

[tombkk]

I hope this is correct as it is for all to read.

Yes, everything you read in newspapers or on the internet is correct, because it is for all to read.

I was referring to the second post being put in correctly as the first one was removed.

Oh. I see. Or not. I'm unable to view removed posts, but I understand that we are making no sense any more.

Let's have a drink instead, what say.