Golden Retriever Puppy Dog

[jonnyscot]

Hi, we bought a golden retriever Pup a couple weeks back, now he's 1.5 months old and would be grateful for a little advice,, I have previously had experience with dogs in the family before, but never had taken away from the mother while still so young,, I assume it is because the owner does not want to foot the bill for the vaccinations even though they are inexpensive, we had him vaccinated today and go back in 2 weeks for more,,,,,, anyway my question is when should we stop feeding him goats milk,, we were advised to feed him goats milk by the previous owner, but she never told us for how long,, another question, can anyone advise on a good quality puppy dog food found here in thailand,,

thanks

[Cuban]

So you took him away from the litter at 4 weeks old?

This is not recommended for a couple of reasons:

Usually pups should reach 8-12 weeks old before the puppies leave the litter is "normal".

Doing the latter part of the pup's litter-time (that your dog has been deprived of) he will miss socialization with his litter mates and play fighting, this can lead to problems relating to other dogs as they grow older, possibly nervous, and prone to barking/biting

When you are confident that there is immunity protection in place "artificial" controlled socialisation with known puppies might be wise. Naturally this happens from 1 month to 3 month's old.

As to the question about milk, the pup's mother's milk contains anti-bodies that aid the pup's immunity, not having this may affect his ability to cope with disease. IMHO 6 weeks is the absolute minimum for mother's milk. The weaning from goat's milk to a nice BARF diet should (again MHO) mimic natural process, the mother dog would eat then regurgitate food for the pups to lap at and in the punch line of a joke, eat the lumps too

If you don't fancy doing this yourself, a nice transition food for developing puppies could be ground meats, liver(I would rest in boiling water for a minute or so before mincing), canned pilchards(rinsed in water to remove much of the tomato paste). Be careful about too much of one food, and consider the over-all salt content in the diet To encourage eating the "new" food you might consider warming it a little (just to body temperature - no more) and mimic eating it yourself, the pup will want to share the pack leader's meal as part of the bonding experience.

Chicken blood cake is full of protein but he will find it very rich if given too much and produce loose stool

Pilchards mashed into milk was a favourite of my Rottie-X puppies, they developed a taste for the whole raw fish (spikes removed) as they got older

As your pup develops stronger teeth starting him on raw chicken feet or wings is a great precursor to chicken/duck legs.

HTH

(Before you reject BARF - take a look at the ingredients list on pet food packets, work out the rough percentages of each item and the price per kilo that is implied, then compare to the price for real food. As a BARF diet is not padded out with rice and other low grade cereals you are feeding a diet with greater nutritional density. Aim at about 7-10% of the puppies body weight in food per day, split across 3-4 meals. I suggest that you take note of the feeding times and times that the pup passes stool so you can adjust feeding time to suit walkies-times to avoid house-training accidents , if you place a marker [sweetcorn] in the meal you can measure the transit time quite well. Dogs have a much shorter intestinal tract compared to humans, which is one of the reasons they don't suffer from bacteria on raw meat that would give you or I an upset stomach )

Edited June 20, 2011 by Cuban

[jonnyscot]

Hi Cuban, thanks for your informative response,, you answered my question fully, however I would like to point out in relation to your following comment

"So you took him away from the litter at 4 weeks old"

Firstly I have grown up all my life with dogs in the family, and what you are stating is what I have already mentioned in my post, and I am well aware that taking a pup away from the parents so young should not be done, I therefore assume that you are pointing out that I was wrong to do so, which I already know/agree, however under the circumstances this litter had a list of interested parties waiting to step in and take the puppy and I know that if we had refused to take the pup then the owner would have sold it on, they made it clear that they wanted the litter sold,(we did offer part payment to the owner in order to leave the pup with the parents for a few weeks longer but they refused), and I am sure we can provide a good standard of care to the Pup,, please note that we are dog lovers and would not consider anything that bordered cruelty to the dog and although taking a puppy away from its parent in my opinion borders on cruelty, considering all circumstances I think we have done the right thing, my wife and I bought this dog as a family pet to be looked after and cared for.

Thanks,

[Cuban]

> ...please note that we are dog lovers

I'm not saying otherwise. Parts of my response was for you and parts my opinion for the benefit of other people that use the forum as an information resource.

My meaty replies in this forum are seldom one liners.

Any pictures of the new arrival? Puppy pictures are always popular

[jonnyscot]

> ...please note that we are dog lovers

I'm not saying otherwise. Parts of my response was for you and parts my opinion for the benefit of other people that use the forum as an information resource.

My meaty replies in this forum are seldom one liners.

Any pictures of the new arrival? Puppy pictures are always popular

Hi Cuban,, just staing the wider facts of the situation before the jury has decided,,,,,

here's a couple of pics of the wee man,

Thanks again

[LeCharivari]

I have commented on the BARF diet elsewhere recently so don't see much point in doing so again but I would be VERY careful about feeding any such diet to a young puppy whose immune system is not fully developed, which is particularly relevant in your case.

Chicken blood cake and uncooked liver, raw chickens' feet, etc, have a far higher possibility (virtually a probability) of carrying salmonella and e-coli than a "normal" diet, as do fresh fish of carrying roundworms and tapeworms.

Diets need to be considered on an individual basis and given what you have written about your dog the BARF diet is not the right one for him, at least at the moment. By 6 weeks old he should already be eating puppy food and taking very little goats milk, as he would be getting little milk from his mother under normal circumstances at that stage. This would normally mean around 6 meals a day, three milky and three meaty, with fresh water available in a heavy dish that he can't fall asleep/drown in. He should have his first teeth (?), so you could give him a large marrow bone.

Over the next 6 weeks you should be cutting his meals down gradually, so that by 3 months he is on 3 meals a day (one milky, 2 meaty) and two meals a day by 6 months.

For anyone feeding a puppy this age, they should be aware that goat's milk is not the same as or a substitute for dog's milk. It is better than cows milk, but still has half the fat, caseine and solids and a fifth of the albumin (soluble protein). A Puppy food like Lactol is far better. Because your puppy has been deprived of these at a crucial stage in his development you need to be very careful about his diet and any supplements you give him

On a training note, I would be very wary of mimicking eating your dog's food or appearing to share your meal with your dog. This should not be necessary and it could be inviting all sorts of complications later when your dog may continue to want to share your food.

[Patsycat]

What a wee cutie!!

[jonnyscot]

Hi Le Charivan, thanks for the info,,,, i've just checked with the wife (as i'm currently working offshore) re,, the diet he is on now and she has told me she is feeding him, milk 3 times daily and she is feeding him a puppy food called "Homestyle Real Meat Perdigree" 2 times daily - any info on the quality/suitability of this food ??, ,, he does have his first teeth starting as now the kids are telling me HE is playing too rough with them ,,,,

thanks again

I have commented on the BARF diet elsewhere recently so don't see much point in doing so again but I would be VERY careful about feeding any such diet to a young puppy whose immune system is not fully developed, which is particularly relevant in your case.

Chicken blood cake and uncooked liver, raw chickens' feet, etc, have a far higher possibility (virtually a probability) of carrying salmonella and e-coli than a "normal" diet, as do fresh fish of carrying roundworms and tapeworms.

Diets need to be considered on an individual basis and given what you have written about your dog the BARF diet is not the right one for him, at least at the moment. By 6 weeks old he should already be eating puppy food and taking very little goats milk, as he would be getting little milk from his mother under normal circumstances at that stage. This would normally mean around 6 meals a day, three milky and three meaty, with fresh water available in a heavy dish that he can't fall asleep/drown in. He should have his first teeth (?), so you could give him a large marrow bone.

Over the next 6 weeks you should be cutting his meals down gradually, so that by 3 months he is on 3 meals a day (one milky, 2 meaty) and two meals a day by 6 months.

For anyone feeding a puppy this age, they should be aware that goat's milk is not the same as or a substitute for dog's milk. It is better than cows milk, but still has half the fat, caseine and solids and a fifth of the albumin (soluble protein). A Puppy food like Lactol is far better. Because your puppy has been deprived of these at a crucial stage in his development you need to be very careful about his diet and any supplements you give him

On a training note, I would be very wary of mimicking eating your dog's food or appearing to share your meal with your dog. This should not be necessary and it could be inviting all sorts of complications later when your dog may continue to want to share your food.

[LeCharivari]

Your food sounds like the standard Pedigree puppy food, available in cans or sachets (details here , with guides to the amount to feed). I feed it to my adult dogs when they are convalescing from an operation as it is easily digested. Check the expiry dates, as stock can be old, but that should be the only problem.

When I say "milky meals" I didn't mean just milk. You should be weaning him off milk, particularly goat's milk as it is not as good as Lactol or bitch's milk so he would need more to get the same amount of nutrients, which would make him full of milk instead of the protein and food he needs. If he's happy eating the puppy food then give him more puppy food and less goat's milk and include something like a Lactol bone. Check with a vet when you come back for a calcium supplement, after a blood check.

As a rough guide to how much food to give, if you are feeding him 5 times a day you should give him as much as he can eat at each sitting (no more and no less) and clear any left over food away after the meal. Never leave it in his bowl for later after he has lost interest.

[jonnyscot]

Hi LeCharivari,, I see you are around early today,,, midnight/midday work pattern for me here ,, thanks for all your info,, firstly I shall advise the wife to try and find this lactol milk suppliment, I was initially unaware of what this actually was to be honest, the wife increased his solid diet yesterday and she also got a marrow bone from the vet, I must say regarding toilet training she is extremely pleased with him, he now does all his daytime business outside with the exception of the understandable mistake during night time.

Thanks again

Your food sounds like the standard Pedigree puppy food, available in cans or sachets (details here , with guides to the amount to feed). I feed it to my adult dogs when they are convalescing from an operation as it is easily digested. Check the expiry dates, as stock can be old, but that should be the only problem.

When I say "milky meals" I didn't mean just milk. You should be weaning him off milk, particularly goat's milk as it is not as good as Lactol or bitch's milk so he would need more to get the same amount of nutrients, which would make him full of milk instead of the protein and food he needs. If he's happy eating the puppy food then give him more puppy food and less goat's milk and include something like a Lactol bone. Check with a vet when you come back for a calcium supplement, after a blood check.

As a rough guide to how much food to give, if you are feeding him 5 times a day you should give him as much as he can eat at each sitting (no more and no less) and clear any left over food away after the meal. Never leave it in his bowl for later after he has lost interest.

[Cuban]

Just compare the teeth of dogs fed on BARF vs those that eat jelly and biscuits.

No tartar build up and fresh breath.

There really is no contest.

[jonnyscot]

Hi Cuban, I shall look into all the options when I get home, as I mentioned, i'm specifically interested in the input relating to the next few weeks bringing him healthily to around the 3 month period, as I have no experience with this, depending on how things pan out later, he will probably be fed leftover meat and fish foods once he reaches a more mature age, all my previous dogs have in the past been very happy, healthy and lived long lives, with the exception of my lovely black flatcoat retriever who sadly died suddenly due to a hemorage at 10 years old. but I suppose its horses for courses, each to their own, but since I am now in a different country I will consider all options available.

Thanks again for your input.

Just compare the teeth of dogs fed on BARF vs those that eat jelly and biscuits.

No tartar build up and fresh breath.

There really is no contest.

[LeCharivari]

JS, you can get the substitute milk at most vets as well as most large supermarkets such as Tesco-Lotus.

Cuban, as I've said the BARF diet is a good one (not that it appears to be what you are feeding your dog, from what you have said) but there is far more to judging a diet than checking your dog's breath and his teeth - you need to look at the bigger picture and to what is best for your particular dog and your particular circumstances.

The BARF diet is not suitable for dogs with a weakened immune system. Period.

Raw Thai chicken is highly suspect at the moment - it has been banned, for example, from import to the EU recently. While dogs may not catch salmomella, e-coli or bird-flu from raw chickens if they have a healthy and developed immune system (dogs have a shorter intestine than people so may not be affected as easily) anyone handling or even touching the raw chicken carcasses may do. Some chicken carcasses are checked, others are frozen, limiting the spread of disease - this is unlikely to apply to cheap carcasses sold for animal feed. Even the dog's faeces (doggie doo) can still be contaminated, presenting another danger to anyone in the house and, particularly, to young children or old people.

The BARF diet is certainly a good diet for some animals, but that does not mean that it is the only good diet - it all depends on the animal and the situation..

[Julieflowers]

I've had dogs most of my life and our pups have always had scrambled egg & rice in the morning as it's light or 1 weetabix mixed with the goats milk and a little water.

My older dogs think its great getting this for breakfast now we have a soi pup!!!

[elfe]

hi, your wife is doing a great job already. be careful that he is not getting too fat which is very bad for bone growth, though a puppy should be not thin of course. i would stick with puppy food from tin and also add dry puppy food but only good quality like royal canine. have always great results in growth and health with that, you can start now already with one called royal canine baby dog or royal canine maxi or medium junior. the baby dog dry food is very tasty and has very small pellets, also junior is very tasty, don't go with cheap brands. don't give any chicken bones!! very dangerous for especially pure bred puppies in my experience. take off the flesh from the bones. meat can be a goodie in between, i tend not to give it raw before puppy is about 4 months old. raw big beef bones will keep your puppy busy and good for teeth.

also mind that weaned off pups should be vaccinated first at about 6 weeks age, as pups which are allowed to stay with mother until two months first vaccination should be at two months.

to take a puppy at this early age is negative for building up his immunity as he does not get it from mothers milk anymore. be careful which area you let your puppy sniff around and which dogs you let him meet before not fully vaccinated at 3 months age...

[jonnyscot]

Hi Elfe, thanks for your info, the wife has already started him with the vaccinations, I think he's due again to visit the vet on monday, i'm personally not a lover of giving my dogs raw meat, although I did give them a nice big marrow bone to chew on every now and then, but everyone has different opinions, back home in UK I previously fed all my dogs before mainly leftover food although when they were younger they were fed with the pedigree chum from the tin, but I am hearing that here in LOS pedigree chum is not the same quality of dog food it is/was in UK before, whether this is due to being manufactured somewhere in asia or not i'm not sure, but from my experience it helped keep my dogs healthy before?

ps,, the wife has tried the Vets, Topps, Tesco and a couple of pet shops here to find that Lactol Milk Suppliment without success anyone know other brands available?? or other stockists,,, i'll be returning home in a couple of days and I suppose if all else fails I can always find somewhere in BKK close to Airport although I will be on a tight schedule, due to our upcoming holidays,

Thanks again.

hi, your wife is doing a great job already. be careful that he is not getting too fat which is very bad for bone growth, though a puppy should be not thin of course. i would stick with puppy food from tin and also add dry puppy food but only good quality like royal canine. have always great results in growth and health with that, you can start now already with one called royal canine baby dog or royal canine maxi or medium junior. the baby dog dry food is very tasty and has very small pellets, also junior is very tasty, don't go with cheap brands. don't give any chicken bones!! very dangerous for especially pure bred puppies in my experience. take off the flesh from the bones. meat can be a goodie in between, i tend not to give it raw before puppy is about 4 months old. raw big beef bones will keep your puppy busy and good for teeth.

also mind that weaned off pups should be vaccinated first at about 6 weeks age, as pups which are allowed to stay with mother until two months first vaccination should be at two months.

to take a puppy at this early age is negative for building up his immunity as he does not get it from mothers milk anymore. be careful which area you let your puppy sniff around and which dogs you let him meet before not fully vaccinated at 3 months age...

[elfe]

you can stop now with the milk supplement as i take it the pup is already almost two months old? not bad though and if you get the chance buy an imported brand, there are quite a few around, one of them lactol, forgot the names of others, any vet or bigger petshop should have it. don't buy the cheap one which is available at supermarkets forgot the brand but it's blue color box. it is only pure cows milk powder and can give puppy diarrhea and not good at all.

the pedigree puppy tins are not bad here, you can give cooked meat and few calcium tablets in addition or meaty raw beef bones which are big enough not to be swallowed.