English Test - Is This Too Good To Be True?

[Frogster]

A bit of aheads up for those of you in the same position as me, requiring their loved one to obtain the A1 English Level, therefore meeting the UK Border Agency's requirements for English.

I think Ihave found a loophole….. I will explain….

The official list of providers as per the UKBA web site has currently 3 companies able to carry out tests in Thailand, all have different tests and awarding bodies.

The one I am interested in is Vantage Siam, (for reasons that will become apparent) they carry out the BULATS (Business Language Testing), University of Cambridge ESOL Examination (both the company and the test are on the approved list).

The Candidate Handbook in English for the BULTAS test (EMC/2016/7Y04) states:-

"There is no Pass mark – candidates are placed in one of six levels" (Level 0 to Level 5)

Level 0 is for candidate scores of 0 to 19, Level 0 directly equates to Level A1

So, someone could take this test, get everything wrong, score 0, but still be placed at Level 0 qualifying for a certificate at A1 Council of Europe (CEF) Level, as required by the UKBA.

Have I overlooked something simple?…… I ask more knowledgeable people to check it out, it may look to good to be true but sometimes loopholes appear….

My References:-

UKBA http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/resources/en/docs/2885878/guidepartnersenglishlangrequirement

Bultas Candidate Handbook

http://www.vantage-siam.com/download_news.php?linkPath=upload/bulats/file/file-951987521.pdf&downloadFile=file-951987521.pdf&DownloadID=11

[VisasPlus]

You aren't the first to notice this, frogster. It has been brought to the attention of the British Embassy here, and probably elsewhere. We have been told that the Embassy "is aware", but we have not heard what will be done about it, if anything.

Firtsly, Vantage Siam seem to be a well recognised and competent teacher/tester of the English language, and I have not heard anything bad about them. That said, it does seem strange that the UKBA approved such a test for the A1 level. Not only does it appear to require a 0 pass mark in one part of the test, it is also not designed for testing in the way that visa applicants need to be tested. Before this recent change in approved testers, the "old" testers carried out a test which satisfied the A1 Level requirements to obtain a visa, ie the listening and speaking sections of the A1 Level CEFR test. The whole test could be carried out in one session. Now, the BULATS requires two tests ( as I understand it ) as their A1 level CEFR test covers listening and writing in one test, and speaking and reading in the other part of the test. I may be well be wrong, but this is how it appears to me.

My own view is that the UKBA rushed, as usual, into the new requirements without even looking at, or thinking about, who they were approving as testers. They introduced some strict criteria for new testers, including that the testers had to be operating in more than 40 countries, and BULATS met the new criteria. The majority of the testers on the old list, although operating properly and legally in the UK, couldn't meet the strict requirements. Maybe the UKBA should actually have looked at the content of the test and it's relevance to testing visa applicants, rather than just choosing the "big" names ?

That said, it would seem to make it easier for visa applicants to achieve the required pass in English, and I personally see nothing wrong with making it easier for genuine dependants to join their partners in the UK.

I suspect that there will be some changes to the approved testers list at some time in the near future, so watch this space.

[marksm]

is there a new list out yet for after 17th of july ?

[bangkockney]

The requirement to cover 40 countries applies to providers of English tests for Points Based applications only.

For spouses and partners, the test provider must have international coverage, with concentration especially where the majority of applications are made: Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.

[VisasPlus]

The requirement to cover 40 countries applies to providers of English tests for Points Based applications only.

For spouses and partners, the test provider must have international coverage, with concentration especially where the majority of applications are made: Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.

You may well be right, but UKBA still didn't choose any provider ( certainly for Thailand) who doesn't operate in less than 40 countries. Even the criteria that you quote make it virtually impossible for any other provider to compete.

As usual, you appear to have knowledge of the subject, so you may well be able to answer the OP's question, plus enlighten us as to why the test has a 0 pass mark ?

[toddmeister]

"is there a new list out yet for after 17th of july ?"

Yes, I noticed the VFS website has been updated recently. Although the "list" of test centers within Thailand now consists of only three....the BULATS which my wife did last month is one of them http://www.vfs-uk-th.com/images/A1_Testing.pdf

"Before this recent change in approved testers, the "old" testers carried out a test which satisfied the A1 Level requirements to obtain a visa, ie the listening and speaking sections of the A1 Level CEFR test. The whole test could be carried out in one session. Now, the BULATS requires two tests ( as I understand it ) as their A1 level CEFR test covers listening and writing in one test, and speaking and reading in the other part of the test. I may be well be wrong, but this is how it appears to me"

From what I can see on the new VFS list, all of the tests on there now require some level covering each aspect of English. I could also be wrong. My wife did the BULATS so I can only comment on that. As for the seperate tests, yes its taken in two parts, a speaking test and computer based test. However if both tests are taken on a Friday they can be done in one day which my wife did. The reason the speaking test can only be done on a Friday is because an independant examiner form Cambridge has to be brought in to do the speaking part. Thats what we were told by Vantage anyway.

[bangkockney]

The requirement to cover 40 countries applies to providers of English tests for Points Based applications only.

For spouses and partners, the test provider must have international coverage, with concentration especially where the majority of applications are made: Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.

You may well be right, but UKBA still didn't choose any provider ( certainly for Thailand) who doesn't operate in less than 40 countries. Even the criteria that you quote make it virtually impossible for any other provider to compete.

As usual, you appear to have knowledge of the subject, so you may well be able to answer the OP's question, plus enlighten us as to why the test has a 0 pass mark ?

The more interesting question is why does IELTS not appear on the approved list yet satisfies both criteria?

Even on the central list maintained by UKBA, they did not include bands below 4.0.

I would suggest administrative error as IELTS grades from beginner (and is an industry leader).

BULATS has no pass mark. Therefore, you can indeed score 0 and be classed as CEFR A1 (beginner).

Logically, I know no Urdu, and if I sat a BUALTS-equivalent I'd score 0 because I'm an absolute beginner. The problem of course, is that a no-knowledge beginner does not port to CEFR nor satisfy the reasons for introducing a language requirement.

In a way, the UKBA is stuck between a rock and a hard place; they need some way to set a baseline and compare the various different test providers, and developing a framework such as CEFR is a notoriously difficult process (many other attempted frameworks failed at conception).

The situation that arises with BULATS is therefore one of definition (i.e. the true definition of what a beginner is). The fact that this is contradictory to the reasons for having an English requirement is a problem shared by other areas of public policy, such as the 21 years old rule - and as your post suggests, comes about by Government rushing voter-friendly policies without thought.

Like you, I see nothing wrong with this little "loophole" - in fact, it brings a smile to my face that demonstrating English level now has no meaning whatsoever in the case of settlement applicants making use of BULATS. And I also agree this could well change in the future, given the reasons outlined above.

Hope that has all come across properly - I've rushed it to give you a reply before I go out.

[kunash]

My opinion is that your time will be better spent trying to get your thai partner to the required standard in English to pass the ''proper'' test and not rely on ''loop holes'' to gain a level 0 pass with Vantage Siam. and yes, i understand vantage siam is on the approved testers list

[VisasPlus]

My opinion is that your time will be better spent trying to get your thai partner to the required standard in English to pass the ''proper'' test and not rely on ''loop holes'' to gain a level 0 pass with Vantage Siam. and yes, i understand vantage siam is on the approved testers list

You could well be right, but the OP asked if it was a "loophole", and we were trying to answer his query.

[Frogster]

My opinion is that your time will be better spent trying to get your thai partner to the required standard in English to pass the ''proper'' test and not rely on ''loop holes'' to gain a level 0 pass with Vantage Siam. and yes, i understand vantage siam is on the approved testers list

Hi Kunash,

I hear your opinion and take your point.

But for the record, I am confident and happy that my partner will indeed pass and at a good level, she has been taking English as part of a college course for the last two years, she understands , reads, writes and speaks to a very good level already (some times her understanding is a bit too good) .

I was just pointing out what I concieved as a loophole, and asking other more experinced people if they agreed with my understanding.

However, having said that, with all the hoops we are forced to jump through regarding Visas and associated costs its sometimes nice to find we (sponsers and applicants) have been cut a little slack.... intentional or not.

It may be helpful to some people to know about it - even if it just gives them knowledge to be able to make an infomed decission and avoid it and take a "proper" test

All knowledge is good, its how you act on that knowledge thats important.

:jap:

Edit...... Thinking about it..... I would like to have a few profit bassed shares in Vantage Siam.... just for the short term.... I bet they are getting booked up!

[kunash]

My opinion is that your time will be better spent trying to get your thai partner to the required standard in English to pass the ''proper'' test and not rely on ''loop holes'' to gain a level 0 pass with Vantage Siam. and yes, i understand vantage siam is on the approved testers list

Hi Kunash,

I hear your opinion and take your point.

But for the record, I am confident and happy that my partner will indeed pass and at a good level, she has been taking English as part of a college course for the last two years, she understands , reads, writes and speaks to a very good level already (some times her understanding is a bit too good) .

I was just pointing out what I concieved as a loophole, and asking other more experinced people if they agreed with my understanding.

However, having said that, with all the hoops we are forced to jump through regarding Visas and associated costs its sometimes nice to find we (sponsers and applicants) have been cut a little slack.... intentional or not.

It may be helpful to some people to know about it - even if it just gives them knowledge to be able to make an infomed decission and avoid it and take a "proper" test

All knowledge is good, its how you act on that knowledge thats important.

:jap:

Edit...... Thinking about it..... I would like to have a few profit bassed shares in Vantage Siam.... just for the short term.... I bet they are getting booked up!

Hi, yes i agree, and my reply was not aimed at anyone, just a generalisation.

[seoptimized]

Could anyone suggest a test center for my wife to attend.

She is over there getting a new settlement visa over the next 30 days and I could do with some tips on where to send here for the English test.

Thanks.

[toddmeister]

See the link in my post above (#6) which is the current new list of test providers within Thailand. Now reduced to three

[7by7]

A mostly off topic post has been removed.

Please stick to the topic.

If you wish to comment on the running of the UK Visa Application Centre then start a new topic.

[RAZZELL]

On the OP's first link:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/new-approved-english-tests.pdf

It states "BULATS Online Cambridge A1 (certificated version. ESOL Only tests taken in the UK are acceptable) Test report form for each component (eading, writing, speaking, listening) Name of test centre Country where test was taken"

I take it this means the test can be taken at an accredited centre anywhere, and not only in the UK?

http://www.vfs-uk-th.com/images/A1_Testing.pdf

States BULATS tests Listening, Reading, Speaking, Writing.

As you only need Speaking and Listening, I take it you can score zero in the "listening"? (which I assume like other tests is the multiple choice part)???

RAZZ

[RAZZELL]

I just thought - can you get "zero" in both speaking and listening and still pass?

Crazy!

RAZZ

[Frogster]

Well..... all that glistens............ etc

I contacted the ESOL Help desk at Cambridge to get definitave answers.... they responded as below.....

Original Call Description: A1 BULATS

Dear XXXXXX,

Thank you for your call.

I have been advised that the information that is on ourwebsite is not up to date, we will be updating this as soon as possible.

I can confirm in the BULATS Online Reading and Listeningtest, a score of 10-19 is required for A1 Level.

I hope this is of assistance.

Kind Regards

Toby Domeisen

ESOL Helpdesk

Cambridge ESOL Customer Services

Still, not so bad, still easier than others I think....

[RAZZELL]

Well..... all that glistens............ etc

I contacted the ESOL Help desk at Cambridge to get definitave answers.... they responded as below.....

Original Call Description: A1 BULATS

Dear XXXXXX,

Thank you for your call.

I have been advised that the information that is on ourwebsite is not up to date, we will be updating this as soon as possible.

I can confirm in the BULATS Online Reading and Listeningtest, a score of 10-19 is required for A1 Level.

I hope this is of assistance.

Kind Regards

Toby Domeisen

ESOL Helpdesk

Cambridge ESOL Customer Services

Still, not so bad, still easier than others I think....

I bet if you called someone else you'd get a different answer.

That fact that it is in the course booklet for BULATS suggests you can score "0" as they stated.

RAZZ

[Eff1n2ret]

Well..... all that glistens............ etc

I contacted the ESOL Help desk at Cambridge to get definitave answers.... they responded as below.....

Original Call Description: A1 BULATS

Dear XXXXXX,

Thank you for your call.

I have been advised that the information that is on ourwebsite is not up to date, we will be updating this as soon as possible.

I can confirm in the BULATS Online Reading and Listeningtest, a score of 10-19 is required for A1 Level.

I hope this is of assistance.

Kind Regards

Toby Domeisen

ESOL Helpdesk

Cambridge ESOL Customer Services

Still, not so bad, still easier than others I think....

I bet if you called someone else you'd get a different answer.

That fact that it is in the course booklet for BULATS suggests you can score "0" as they stated.

RAZZ

You may be right, if only because the answer that Frogster got related to the BULATS Online Test.It is my understanding that the online test can not be taken outside the UK. A computer test is not necessarily delivered online.

[toddmeister]

The list has now been amended again and if you look at the BULATS it now says that "Only tests taken with certifying BULATS agents" where as before it stated only tests taken in the UK were acceptable:-

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/new-approved-english-tests.pdf

then if you click the certified agents it confirms Vantage as the Thai agent for BULATS:-

http://www.bulats.org/Bulats/certificated-bulats-online.html

Regards

[smartecosse]

Well..... all that glistens............ etc

I contacted the ESOL Help desk at Cambridge to get definitave answers.... they responded as below.....

Original Call Description: A1 BULATS

Dear XXXXXX,

Thank you for your call.

I have been advised that the information that is on ourwebsite is not up to date, we will be updating this as soon as possible.

I can confirm in the BULATS Online Reading and Listeningtest, a score of 10-19 is required for A1 Level.

I hope this is of assistance.

Kind Regards

Toby Domeisen

ESOL Helpdesk

Cambridge ESOL Customer Services

Still, not so bad, still easier than others I think....

I bet if you called someone else you'd get a different answer.

That fact that it is in the course booklet for BULATS suggests you can score "0" as they stated.

RAZZ

Anymore news on this? The online booklets still state that for A1 the grading starts at zero marks. Is the 10-19 out of 100 or something else?

Thanks

[ThomsonPeter]

You aren't the first to notice this, frogster. It has been brought to the attention of the British Embassy here, and probably elsewhere. We have been told that the Embassy "is aware", but we have not heard what will be done about it, if anything.

It is too good to be true.

But you may get a settlement visa even though the lady cannot speak English.

The test comes when you get to the UK. At UK immigration the lady will be asked some questions. If she doesn't understand the question and cannot provide a suitable answer her English will be tested a little further. If she is found not to meet the standard required she will be refused entry and put on a plane back to Thailand.

So for the sake of learning a little English, you can lose your visa fee and your air fare.

[7by7]

All the above is complete news to me. Where did you get this information from?

To the best of my knowledge:-

In order to obtain a settlement visa as a spouse, fiance or partner then that person must provide an acceptable English test result with their application; unless they are exempt. If they don't, they wont be getting on any plane because they wont get the visa!

If a person has been granted a settlement, or any other, visa then an immigration officer can only refuse entry if they have reason to believe that the visa was obtained by deception or there has been a material change of circumstances since it was issued.

[smartecosse]

You aren't the first to notice this, frogster. It has been brought to the attention of the British Embassy here, and probably elsewhere. We have been told that the Embassy "is aware", but we have not heard what will be done about it, if anything.

It is too good to be true.

But you may get a settlement visa even though the lady cannot speak English.

The test comes when you get to the UK. At UK immigration the lady will be asked some questions. If she doesn't understand the question and cannot provide a suitable answer her English will be tested a little further. If she is found not to meet the standard required she will be refused entry and put on a plane back to Thailand.

So for the sake of learning a little English, you can lose your visa fee and your air fare.

really,so if they get issued the appropriate visa and then arrive at an airport, are nervous, forget what to say as they feel under pressure they then get put back on a plane, even though the paperwork is correct?

is that actually factual or merely your impression of what would happen??

[ThomsonPeter]

You aren't the first to notice this, frogster. It has been brought to the attention of the British Embassy here, and probably elsewhere. We have been told that the Embassy "is aware", but we have not heard what will be done about it, if anything.

It is too good to be true.

But you may get a settlement visa even though the lady cannot speak English.

The test comes when you get to the UK. At UK immigration the lady will be asked some questions. If she doesn't understand the question and cannot provide a suitable answer her English will be tested a little further. If she is found not to meet the standard required she will be refused entry and put on a plane back to Thailand.

So for the sake of learning a little English, you can lose your visa fee and your air fare.

really,so if they get issued the appropriate visa and then arrive at an airport, are nervous, forget what to say as they feel under pressure they then get put back on a plane, even though the paperwork is correct?

is that actually factual or merely your impression of what would happen??

Refusal of leave to enter in relation to a person in possession of an entry clearance

321. A person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom who holds an entry clearance which was duly issued to him and is still current may be refused leave to enter only where the Immigration Officer is satisfied that:

(i) False representations were made or false documents or information were submitted (whether or not material to the application, and whether or not to the holder's knowledge), or material facts were not disclosed, in relation to the application for entry clearance;

i.e it is clear that they do not pass the English test requirements. You would need to get your MP to make a request under the freedom of information act to find out how often this happens.

[bangkockney]

Rubbish. This could only apply if it was shown at point of entry that the applicant didn't take the test themselves yet submitted a test certificate in their name with their visa application.

The only people who currently can be refused entry for not being able to speak English without an interpreter are students.

You aren't the first to notice this, frogster. It has been brought to the attention of the British Embassy here, and probably elsewhere. We have been told that the Embassy "is aware", but we have not heard what will be done about it, if anything.

It is too good to be true.

But you may get a settlement visa even though the lady cannot speak English.

The test comes when you get to the UK. At UK immigration the lady will be asked some questions. If she doesn't understand the question and cannot provide a suitable answer her English will be tested a little further. If she is found not to meet the standard required she will be refused entry and put on a plane back to Thailand.

So for the sake of learning a little English, you can lose your visa fee and your air fare.

really,so if they get issued the appropriate visa and then arrive at an airport, are nervous, forget what to say as they feel under pressure they then get put back on a plane, even though the paperwork is correct?

is that actually factual or merely your impression of what would happen??

Refusal of leave to enter in relation to a person in possession of an entry clearance

321. A person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom who holds an entry clearance which was duly issued to him and is still current may be refused leave to enter only where the Immigration Officer is satisfied that:

(i) False representations were made or false documents or information were submitted (whether or not material to the application, and whether or not to the holder's knowledge), or material facts were not disclosed, in relation to the application for entry clearance;

i.e it is clear that they do not pass the English test requirements. You would need to get your MP to make a request under the freedom of information act to find out how often this happens.

[bangkockney]

PS Please note the use of interpreter in the case of students. The UKBA is in no position to make a formal assesment of anyone's English language ability; that's not their game.

[7by7]

If a person has been granted a settlement, or any other, visa then an immigration officer can only refuse entry if they have reason to believe that the visa was obtained by deception or there has been a material change of circumstances since it was issued.

Refusal of leave to enter in relation to a person in possession of an entry clearance

321. A person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom who holds an entry clearance which was duly issued to him and is still current may be refused leave to enter only where the Immigration Officer is satisfied that:

(i) False representations were made or false documents or information were submitted (whether or not material to the application, and whether or not to the holder's knowledge), or material facts were not disclosed, in relation to the application for entry clearance;

Your quote from the Para 321 of the immigration rules confirms what I said.

As I also said in the quoted post

In order to obtain a settlement visa as a spouse, fiance or partner then that person must provide an acceptable English test result with their application; unless they are exempt. If they don't, they wont be getting on any plane because they wont get the visa!

Unless the IO has evidence to suggest that the English certificate, and therefore the settlement visa, was obtained by fraud or deception, then they have no reason or grounds to refuse entry. Even then the IO cannot refuse on his/her own, they must have the refusal confirmed by a superior; see Immigration Directorates Instructions, Chapter 6, Section 9, Para 1.2

Remember, too, that the standard of English required at the initial visa stage is not very high; it is entirely within reason that a spouse, fiance or partner presenting themselves at a port of entry would feel under pressure if subjected to intense questioning and so unable to communicate effectively with the IO on duty!

If you have evidence that IOs are refusing entry to spouses, fiances and partners for the reason you state, please produce it. Because if they are, it appears to me that they are exceeding their powers!