The Time Has Come To Rediscover Our Moral Compass; Thai Opinion

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

The time has come to rediscover our moral compass

By The Nation

A blanket amnesty will do nothing to heal the bitter divide in Thai society - justice and the rule of law are the only way forward

In early 2003, the administration of Thaksin Shinawatra launched a controversial campaign in the name of a war against drugs.

Within three months, about 2,500 suspects and a handful of innocent bystanders had been killed. The official explanation was that this was "bad guys killing bad guys". Nobody believed it, but we Thais didn't really care. As far as we were concerned, justice had been served.

But a few people in the political establishment, including close allies like the US, decided it was time to tap Thaksin on the shoulder and remind him, as leader of the Thai government, that controversial policies using body counts as the benchmark for success could damage bilateral ties with foreign countries, who often restrict cooperation with governments that grossly abuse their power. The Thaksin administration duly came to its senses and the killing stopped.

Sad to say, a society that opts for such a heavy-handed solution however controversial it may be, is a weak society. It is one that can be easily exploited and manipulated even in the face of glaring contradictions with its traditional values.

Remember the topless Songkran girls dancing on the back of a truck on Silom Road? They were just metres away from rows of topless-dancer go-go bars. We were angry but we didn't really know why. Perhaps the word "contradiction" is an understatement when it comes to describing our society.

While most political parties have invested heavily in trying to understand what makes Thai people tick, we seem to have lost sight of more basic but important things. Integrity, honesty, generosity, humility and other important virtues are hard to find nowadays when we speak of governance.

We see things the way we want to see them, and along the way we compromise our own values for short-term gains. Instead of defending the ground rules we instead ask, "What's my cut? What's in it for me?"

Along with the controversial drug war, Thai people have tolerated a culture of impunity - but as long it was only for members of their own political and social camp.

The Pheu Thai Party accused the outgoing Democrat-led Government of not moving fast enough in bringing the yellow shirts to justice for occupying Suvarnabhumi Airport and Government House when pro-Thaksin administrations were in place.

The ball is now in Pheu Thai's court and it remains to be seen how its incoming government will handle the red-shirt leaders who called on their supporters to turn Bangkok and city halls around the country into a sea of fire.

The bottom line is that we have to have an ethical standard, and the law of the land and the country's constitution is not a bad place on which to peg our moral and political integrity.

We may have lost our bearings when it comes to calibrating our moral compass, as our reaction to the Songkran dancing girls suggests, not to mention that many of us keep re-electing gangster-politicians despite knowing full well of their past deeds. But let's not allow the ongoing political divide to get the better of us. Let the law of the land serve as our equilibrium - the ground rule that must be upheld by any means necessary.

We cannot be fooled by the shallow logic that a blanket amnesty will make everything okay and enable us to move forward, mapping our future on a clean slate. Justice must be rendered regardless of the colour of one's shirt, political affiliation or uniform.

Too many have lost their lives and too much damage has been done. Justice must be swift, effective and "blind" and all the wounds and scars must be addressed. Otherwise, we as a nation will never close this bitter chapter that pitted Thai citizens against one another.

-- The Nation 2011-07-09

[sirchai]

Within three months, about 2,500 suspects and a handful of innocent bystanders had been killed

Guess more innocent 'suspects' than bystanders got killed. One of them was a friend of mine.

And the containers in Satthapip with all the bones and skulls? Should be Mr. T. inside. :jap:

Edited July 9, 2011 by sirchai

[SomTumTiger]

But a bought and paid for election win fixes all! Right?

[CosmicSurfer]

CS

Edited July 9, 2011 by CosmicSurfer

[mrtoad]

But a bought and paid for election win fixes all! Right?

If your names Shinawatra

[Steely Dan]

Rediscover?

[OzMick]

".......... it remains to be seen how its incoming government will handle the red-shirt leaders who called on their supporters to turn Bangkok and city halls around the country into a sea of fire."

As they gave nearly every one of the curs a guaranteed seat in Parliament, and they are now part of this government, the way they handle it is a foregone conclusion.

The position of the red-shirt movement is that "We did nothing wrong!" while more discerning moral thinkers tend to disagree. How do you reconciliate two diametrically opposed views?

[Oberkommando]

Good to see the bitterness is still oozing out since the very predictable and somewhat inevitable Puea Thai Party landslide election victory.

Morals in Thailand are quickly forgotten when money is involved.

As they gave nearly every one of the curs a guaranteed seat in Parliament, and they are now part of this government,

The yellow shirts and Democrats set the precedent by appointing Kasit to the cabinet in spite of his involvements in illegal activities.

You reap what you sow.

[Crushdepth]

I'll keep an eye out for the moral compass when I get to Pattaya this afternoon.

[badmedicine]

Integrity, honesty, generosity, humility and other important virtues are hard to find nowadays when we speak of governance.

Well, I wouldn't feel too bad about that. The same is true of governments the world over. Individuals, too, for that matter.

Integrity is a lost virtue, and those who extol it are usually sneered at as trying "to play the saint" (the insinuation being that they are only playing and don't live up to their own standards).

As regards the main point of the article, the time to rediscover one's moral compass is the moment one realizes it has been lost. That the nation only last week chose to return to power a man with an utterly flawed character over another who, despite the mistakes made, possesses basically a good one, suggests Thailand has a long way to go before that realization sinks in.

[Orac]

I'll keep an eye out for the moral compass when I get to Pattaya this afternoon.

even if you upgrade to a moral sat nav you will find it still goes berserk in Pattaya - better to just use a map.

[Thaddeus]

I'll keep an eye out for the moral compass when I get to Pattaya this afternoon.

I bet it points "Up"

[virtualtraveller]

This is perhaps one of the most pertinent commentaries I've ever read in the Nation. Say what you will, but we've all been blaming Thaksin, the coup, the reds the yellows, the pandas, anyone but ourselves. Thais can't look in the mirror and admit that as a nation their moral compass is broken, and the root of many of the ills now is the collective result of a sense of denial that as a nation this country and it's sense of integrity is rotten to the core. Politics just brings it to our attention.

[whybother]

Good to see the bitterness is still oozing out since the very predictable and somewhat inevitable Puea Thai Party landslide election victory.

Morals in Thailand are quickly forgotten when money is involved.

As they gave nearly every one of the curs a guaranteed seat in Parliament, and they are now part of this government,

The yellow shirts and Democrats set the precedent by appointing Kasit to the cabinet in spite of his involvements in illegal activities.

You reap what you sow.

I thought you would have got past "... but the yellow shirts ..." by now.

[canuckamuck]

Moral compasses don't work this close to the equator.

[Skywalker69]

Within three months, about 2,500 suspects and a handful of innocent bystanders had been killed

Guess more innocent 'suspects' than bystanders got killed. One of them was a friend of mine.

And the containers in Satthapip with all the bones and skulls? Should be Mr. T. inside. :jap:

Absolutly somerthing for ICC!!!

[SteeleJoe]

Great Op-Ed.

Sadly futile.

[FOODLOVER]

Rediscover?

I thought discover would have been more appropriate.

[SteeleJoe]

Rediscover?

I thought discover would have been more appropriate.

As soon as I saw the title of the OP, the very first thing I thought about was how many comments like this there would be.

Talk about predictable...

Edited July 9, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[jackr]

We may have lost our bearings when it comes to calibrating our moral compass

How can it be lost if you never had a bearing? Now if morality really means dog-eat-dog...

[phetaroi]

I think this is one of the better editorials I have read.

The term "moral compass" is an interesting one. I'm trying to figure out if the Thais, as a society, have a moral compass. I believe that moral compasses are often hazy everywhere in the world. But I think that most nations can define what their country's moral compass is. Just for clarity's sake, there was a time when America's moral compass was manifest destiny. All things considered, it built a nation, but trampled on large groups of people while doing so. But it was fairly definable. "The sun never sets on the British empire." The concept had its faults, but it was a definable national moral compass. But, post-King Chulalongkorn, I find it impossible to determine any national moral compass in Thailand.

Then it comes to defining personal moral compasses. Buddhism? I'd have to say no. As beautiful as many aspects of Buddhism are in Thailand (and I consider myself to some extent a converted Buddhist), Buddhism in Thailand is horribly mixed in with animism, as well as we commonly seeing Thais worshiping Hindu dieties. And the principles of Buddhism are very different than the principles of Hinduism.

Who among us can't run down a list of things so common in Thailand that we would have to question the existence of a moral compass: Little things like the undefinable Thai smile that is often a means of taking advantage of a situation, to scams, to rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), to bribery as an accepted way of life, to a general concept of taking advantage, to copyright rip-offs, and, yes, to modern Thai politics.

And yet, as most of us would agree, Thais seem to be "nice", "friendly", "helpful", "kind", etc.

So my question is, what is the Thai moral compass? Can it be defined?

[hellodolly]

Good to see the bitterness is still oozing out since the very predictable and somewhat inevitable Puea Thai Party landslide election victory.

Morals in Thailand are quickly forgotten when money is involved.

As they gave nearly every one of the curs a guaranteed seat in Parliament, and they are now part of this government,

The yellow shirts and Democrats set the precedent by appointing Kasit to the cabinet in spite of his involvements in illegal activities.

You reap what you sow.

Well I have to admit you finally said some thing intelligent.

Yes they made a huge mistake when they appointed Kasit to the cabinet.

That was just one of the reasons I did not like Abhist. Never the less if I had been able to vote he would have got my vote. There was no other sensible choice.

And Thaksin hasn't got enough money to buy me.

[SteeleJoe]

And Thaksin hasn't got enough money to buy me.

Really?

I loathe the man but I'm not sure I could say the same -- hate to think how readily I might discard my principles for say 20 or 30 million dollars.

Fortunately, I suppose, neither of us is likely to find out...

[hellodolly]

I think this is one of the better editorials I have read.

The term "moral compass" is an interesting one. I'm trying to figure out if the Thais, as a society, have a moral compass. I believe that moral compasses are often hazy everywhere in the world. But I think that most nations can define what their country's moral compass is. Just for clarity's sake, there was a time when America's moral compass was manifest destiny. All things considered, it built a nation, but trampled on large groups of people while doing so. But it was fairly definable. "The sun never sets on the British empire." The concept had its faults, but it was a definable national moral compass. But, post-King Chulalongkorn, I find it impossible to determine any national moral compass in Thailand.

Then it comes to defining personal moral compasses. Buddhism? I'd have to say no. As beautiful as many aspects of Buddhism are in Thailand (and I consider myself to some extent a converted Buddhist), Buddhism in Thailand is horribly mixed in with animism, as well as we commonly seeing Thais worshiping Hindu dieties. And the principles of Buddhism are very different than the principles of Hinduism.

Who among us can't run down a list of things so common in Thailand that we would have to question the existence of a moral compass: Little things like the undefinable Thai smile that is often a means of taking advantage of a situation, to scams, to rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), to bribery as an accepted way of life, to a general concept of taking advantage, to copyright rip-offs, and, yes, to modern Thai politics.

And yet, as most of us would agree, Thais seem to be "nice", "friendly", "helpful", "kind", etc.

So my question is, what is the Thai moral compass? Can it be defined?

No offense meant but it sounds like you are using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity. Using those it is easy to say they have no moral compass.

I would like to direct your attention to the way they take care of there family. Rather than shoving them into a home where others will do it for them.

But alas they are slowly losing this as the western world intrudes on them and tries to force there standards on them. The younger generation is truly getting more materialistic. Some thing they learned from the Westerners.

[cup-O-coffee]

I think this is one of the better editorials I have read.

The term "moral compass" is an interesting one. I'm trying to figure out if the Thais, as a society, have a moral compass. I believe that moral compasses are often hazy everywhere in the world. But I think that most nations can define what their country's moral compass is. Just for clarity's sake, there was a time when America's moral compass was manifest destiny. All things considered, it built a nation, but trampled on large groups of people while doing so. But it was fairly definable. "The sun never sets on the British empire." The concept had its faults, but it was a definable national moral compass. But, post-King Chulalongkorn, I find it impossible to determine any national moral compass in Thailand.

Then it comes to defining personal moral compasses. Buddhism? I'd have to say no. As beautiful as many aspects of Buddhism are in Thailand (and I consider myself to some extent a converted Buddhist), Buddhism in Thailand is horribly mixed in with animism, as well as we commonly seeing Thais worshiping Hindu dieties. And the principles of Buddhism are very different than the principles of Hinduism.

Who among us can't run down a list of things so common in Thailand that we would have to question the existence of a moral compass: Little things like the undefinable Thai smile that is often a means of taking advantage of a situation, to scams, to rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), to bribery as an accepted way of life, to a general concept of taking advantage, to copyright rip-offs, and, yes, to modern Thai politics.

And yet, as most of us would agree, Thais seem to be "nice", "friendly", "helpful", "kind", etc.

So my question is, what is the Thai moral compass? Can it be defined?

That is a beautiful statement. Well said!

To the Thaksin hate brigade, and I apologize, phetaroi' timestamp, because this has nothing to do with your well crafted and profound view; I say to the Thaksin hate brigade to plug your pie holes! it is basically a simple statement, and yet it has an alacrity to it. It means to stall your foreign views in the face of what the Thai people want in a vast majority of ballot counts.

There is no leader in the history of mankind that has no flaws that would give cause to some stupid editorial opinion. We are all flawed.

The moral compass is sort of like the golden fleece. Every nation has had its own time to search and claim. Thailand, oh lordy, should be given the same respect. It's gonna take some time, and I am emphatically convinced that some Thai views and cultural beliefs will have to change dramatically, but at the end of the day, I believe that human zeal always wins through.

The Nation is not to be trusted as a viable source of wisdom. Hell; the article is described as an editorial opinion, and yet the author hasn't the cojones to state their name. At least is the USA an editorial opinion has the name of the editor and their UPI wire photo.

It is my hope that Thailand will lift its head and look around and see that they are not alone on this world, and that the times are a changin'. And with change, so must go the ways that do not provide for the sustenance of the people. Personal gain will be called out, and the masses will demand an accounting.

Remember the topless Songkran girls dancing on the back of a truck on Silom Road? They were just metres away from rows of topless-dancer go-go bars. We were angry but we didn't really know why. Perhaps the word "contradiction" is an understatement when it comes to describing our society.

Get a life! You seriously need therapy or for someone to re-arrange your mental furniture!

[SteeleJoe]

I think this is one of the better editorials I have read.

The term "moral compass" is an interesting one. I'm trying to figure out if the Thais, as a society, have a moral compass. I believe that moral compasses are often hazy everywhere in the world. But I think that most nations can define what their country's moral compass is. Just for clarity's sake, there was a time when America's moral compass was manifest destiny. All things considered, it built a nation, but trampled on large groups of people while doing so. But it was fairly definable. "The sun never sets on the British empire." The concept had its faults, but it was a definable national moral compass. But, post-King Chulalongkorn, I find it impossible to determine any national moral compass in Thailand.

Then it comes to defining personal moral compasses. Buddhism? I'd have to say no. As beautiful as many aspects of Buddhism are in Thailand (and I consider myself to some extent a converted Buddhist), Buddhism in Thailand is horribly mixed in with animism, as well as we commonly seeing Thais worshiping Hindu dieties. And the principles of Buddhism are very different than the principles of Hinduism.

Who among us can't run down a list of things so common in Thailand that we would have to question the existence of a moral compass: Little things like the undefinable Thai smile that is often a means of taking advantage of a situation, to scams, to rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), to bribery as an accepted way of life, to a general concept of taking advantage, to copyright rip-offs, and, yes, to modern Thai politics.

And yet, as most of us would agree, Thais seem to be "nice", "friendly", "helpful", "kind", etc.

So my question is, what is the Thai moral compass? Can it be defined?

No offense meant but it sounds like you are using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity. Using those it is easy to say they have no moral compass.

I would like to direct your attention to the way they take care of there family. Rather than shoving them into a home where others will do it for them.

But alas they are slowly losing this as the western world intrudes on them and tries to force there standards on them. The younger generation is truly getting more materialistic. Some thing they learned from the Westerners.

I too mean no offense but...

None of what the poster said had anything to do with "using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity". While I personally think his'her post was -- like yours IMO -- a bit simplistic, it wasn't inaccurate.

Objections to scams, rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), bribery as an accepted way of life, a general concept of taking advantage, copyright rip-offs, and the sate of modern Thai politics must be based on "western ideas"? You don't seem to have a very high opinion of Thai morality.

As for the way 'they take care of their family' (from your description you seem to be speaking of elderly family members): it's a fine thing and in most ways preferable to what often happens in the west. But some context is necessary: they often don't have a choice and moreover it's a reciprocal relationship that sometimes is exploitative and ugly (eg women --- primarily -- being obligated to sacrifice a great deal to "pay back" their parents for raising them).

No one is "trying to force their standards on them" and you shouldn't think so poorly of them as to be so condescending and paternalistic: Thais are just like anyone else in that they want nice things and they always have. They didn't "learn it from the westerners".

[cup-O-coffee]

I think this is one of the better editorials I have read.

The term "moral compass" is an interesting one. I'm trying to figure out if the Thais, as a society, have a moral compass. I believe that moral compasses are often hazy everywhere in the world. But I think that most nations can define what their country's moral compass is. Just for clarity's sake, there was a time when America's moral compass was manifest destiny. All things considered, it built a nation, but trampled on large groups of people while doing so. But it was fairly definable. "The sun never sets on the British empire." The concept had its faults, but it was a definable national moral compass. But, post-King Chulalongkorn, I find it impossible to determine any national moral compass in Thailand.

Then it comes to defining personal moral compasses. Buddhism? I'd have to say no. As beautiful as many aspects of Buddhism are in Thailand (and I consider myself to some extent a converted Buddhist), Buddhism in Thailand is horribly mixed in with animism, as well as we commonly seeing Thais worshiping Hindu dieties. And the principles of Buddhism are very different than the principles of Hinduism.

Who among us can't run down a list of things so common in Thailand that we would have to question the existence of a moral compass: Little things like the undefinable Thai smile that is often a means of taking advantage of a situation, to scams, to rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), to bribery as an accepted way of life, to a general concept of taking advantage, to copyright rip-offs, and, yes, to modern Thai politics.

And yet, as most of us would agree, Thais seem to be "nice", "friendly", "helpful", "kind", etc.

So my question is, what is the Thai moral compass? Can it be defined?

No offense meant but it sounds like you are using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity. Using those it is easy to say they have no moral compass.

I would like to direct your attention to the way they take care of there family. Rather than shoving them into a home where others will do it for them.

But alas they are slowly losing this as the western world intrudes on them and tries to force there standards on them. The younger generation is truly getting more materialistic. Some thing they learned from the Westerners.

I too mean no offense but...

None of what the poster said had anything to do with "using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity". While I personally think his'her post was -- like yours IMO -- a bit simplistic, it wasn't inaccurate.

Objections to scams, rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), bribery as an accepted way of life, a general concept of taking advantage, copyright rip-offs, and the sate of modern Thai politics must be based on "western ideas"? You don't seem to have a very high opinion of Thai morality.

As for the way 'they take care of their family' (from your description you seem to be speaking of elderly family members): it's a fine thing and in most ways preferable to what often happens in the west. But some context is necessary: they often don't have a choice and moreover it's a reciprocal relationship that sometimes is exploitative and ugly (eg women --- primarily -- being obligated to sacrifice a great deal to "pay back" their parents for raising them).

No one is "trying to force their standards on them" and you shouldn't think so poorly of them as to be so condescending and paternalistic: Thais are just like anyone else in that they want nice things and they always have. They didn't "learn it from the westerners".

Very nice! Well stated! I don't agree with it all, but you make a strong case indeed!

[SteeleJoe]

I think this is one of the better editorials I have read.

The term "moral compass" is an interesting one. I'm trying to figure out if the Thais, as a society, have a moral compass. I believe that moral compasses are often hazy everywhere in the world. But I think that most nations can define what their country's moral compass is. Just for clarity's sake, there was a time when America's moral compass was manifest destiny. All things considered, it built a nation, but trampled on large groups of people while doing so. But it was fairly definable. "The sun never sets on the British empire." The concept had its faults, but it was a definable national moral compass. But, post-King Chulalongkorn, I find it impossible to determine any national moral compass in Thailand.

Then it comes to defining personal moral compasses. Buddhism? I'd have to say no. As beautiful as many aspects of Buddhism are in Thailand (and I consider myself to some extent a converted Buddhist), Buddhism in Thailand is horribly mixed in with animism, as well as we commonly seeing Thais worshiping Hindu dieties. And the principles of Buddhism are very different than the principles of Hinduism.

Who among us can't run down a list of things so common in Thailand that we would have to question the existence of a moral compass: Little things like the undefinable Thai smile that is often a means of taking advantage of a situation, to scams, to rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), to bribery as an accepted way of life, to a general concept of taking advantage, to copyright rip-offs, and, yes, to modern Thai politics.

And yet, as most of us would agree, Thais seem to be "nice", "friendly", "helpful", "kind", etc.

So my question is, what is the Thai moral compass? Can it be defined?

No offense meant but it sounds like you are using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity. Using those it is easy to say they have no moral compass.

I would like to direct your attention to the way they take care of there family. Rather than shoving them into a home where others will do it for them.

But alas they are slowly losing this as the western world intrudes on them and tries to force there standards on them. The younger generation is truly getting more materialistic. Some thing they learned from the Westerners.

I too mean no offense but...

None of what the poster said had anything to do with "using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity". While I personally think his'her post was -- like yours IMO -- a bit simplistic, it wasn't inaccurate.

Objections to scams, rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), bribery as an accepted way of life, a general concept of taking advantage, copyright rip-offs, and the sate of modern Thai politics must be based on "western ideas"? You don't seem to have a very high opinion of Thai morality.

As for the way 'they take care of their family' (from your description you seem to be speaking of elderly family members): it's a fine thing and in most ways preferable to what often happens in the west. But some context is necessary: they often don't have a choice and moreover it's a reciprocal relationship that sometimes is exploitative and ugly (eg women --- primarily -- being obligated to sacrifice a great deal to "pay back" their parents for raising them).

No one is "trying to force their standards on them" and you shouldn't think so poorly of them as to be so condescending and paternalistic: Thais are just like anyone else in that they want nice things and they always have. They didn't "learn it from the westerners".

Very nice! Well stated! I don't agree with it all, but you make a strong case indeed!

Thanks very much but to be honest, I think the late hour, fatigue and a rush job all conspired to ensure I did an even worse job than I usually do at saying what I wanted. I may try it again tomorrow.

[hellodolly]

I think this is one of the better editorials I have read.

The term "moral compass" is an interesting one. I'm trying to figure out if the Thais, as a society, have a moral compass. I believe that moral compasses are often hazy everywhere in the world. But I think that most nations can define what their country's moral compass is. Just for clarity's sake, there was a time when America's moral compass was manifest destiny. All things considered, it built a nation, but trampled on large groups of people while doing so. But it was fairly definable. "The sun never sets on the British empire." The concept had its faults, but it was a definable national moral compass. But, post-King Chulalongkorn, I find it impossible to determine any national moral compass in Thailand.

Then it comes to defining personal moral compasses. Buddhism? I'd have to say no. As beautiful as many aspects of Buddhism are in Thailand (and I consider myself to some extent a converted Buddhist), Buddhism in Thailand is horribly mixed in with animism, as well as we commonly seeing Thais worshiping Hindu dieties. And the principles of Buddhism are very different than the principles of Hinduism.

Who among us can't run down a list of things so common in Thailand that we would have to question the existence of a moral compass: Little things like the undefinable Thai smile that is often a means of taking advantage of a situation, to scams, to rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), to bribery as an accepted way of life, to a general concept of taking advantage, to copyright rip-offs, and, yes, to modern Thai politics.

And yet, as most of us would agree, Thais seem to be "nice", "friendly", "helpful", "kind", etc.

So my question is, what is the Thai moral compass? Can it be defined?

No offense meant but it sounds like you are using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity. Using those it is easy to say they have no moral compass.

I would like to direct your attention to the way they take care of there family. Rather than shoving them into a home where others will do it for them.

But alas they are slowly losing this as the western world intrudes on them and tries to force there standards on them. The younger generation is truly getting more materialistic. Some thing they learned from the Westerners.

I too mean no offense but...

None of what the poster said had anything to do with "using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity". While I personally think his'her post was -- like yours IMO -- a bit simplistic, it wasn't inaccurate.

Objections to scams, rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), bribery as an accepted way of life, a general concept of taking advantage, copyright rip-offs, and the sate of modern Thai politics must be based on "western ideas"? You don't seem to have a very high opinion of Thai morality.

As for the way 'they take care of their family' (from your description you seem to be speaking of elderly family members): it's a fine thing and in most ways preferable to what often happens in the west. But some context is necessary: they often don't have a choice and moreover it's a reciprocal relationship that sometimes is exploitative and ugly (eg women --- primarily -- being obligated to sacrifice a great deal to "pay back" their parents for raising them).

No one is "trying to force their standards on them" and you shouldn't think so poorly of them as to be so condescending and paternalistic: Thais are just like anyone else in that they want nice things and they always have. They didn't "learn it from the westerners".

You miss read me I do not think the standards should be based on Western standards that is the problem Foreigners tend to do that. You are rite they want nice things and did not learn it from the westerners. But they did learn a whole new range of nice things to want. Are you maintaning that until the Westerners came here they were unhappy. All of them materialistic things. As I said they are slowly drifting away from the family concept. It will still be here when I pass on but a little bit less adhered to.

I can not speak for you but for my self I have high regards for them. But that is because I do not judge them on western standards. I except them as being neither right or wrong just different. OK OK I will concede that they are wrong driving on the wrong side of the road.

Yes it is a bit simplistic but that is a opinion based on your western education.

[SteeleJoe]

You miss read me I do not think the standards should be based on Western standards that is the problem Foreigners tend to do that. You are rite they want nice things and did not learn it from the westerners. But they did learn a whole new range of nice things to want. Are you maintaning that until the Westerners came here they were unhappy. All of them materialistic things. As I said they are slowly drifting away from the family concept. It will still be here when I pass on but a little bit less adhered to.

I can not speak for you but for my self I have high regards for them. But that is because I do not judge them on western standards. I except them as being neither right or wrong just different. OK OK I will concede that they are wrong driving on the wrong side of the road.

Yes it is a bit simplistic but that is a opinion based on your western education.

I don't think I misread you but it is clear you have misread me (some of it my fault, probably). I never stated or implied that you think "the standards" should be based on Western standards. Let me break it down:

The poster cited the following as being objectionable:

...scams, rampant prostitution (including child prostitution), bribery as an accepted way of life, a general concept of taking advantage, copyright rip-offs, and the sate of modern Thai politics...

And you state that he sees it that way because he is "using western ideas ones that for a large part come from Christianity." So I ask you, do you think that objecting to those things (to the degree that they exist) is exclusively western/Judeo-Christian? That Thais would and should find them unobjectionable?

They did learn a whole new range of nice things to want.

And you equate that with "the western world intruding on them and trying to force their standards on them"? You would prefer them to have been somehow isolated from knowledge of these things, for their own good? They shouldn't know about modern conveniences and material goods that people around the world enjoy?

Are you maintaning that until the Westerners came here they were unhappy.

Where in the h^#ll did you see anything like that suggested or even implied in my post?

I can not speak for you but for my self I have high regards for them. But that is because I do not judge them on western standards. I except them as being neither right or wrong just different.

"Them" is what or whom? The Thais? I have in general a fairly high regard for them (no less than I do any other nation's people), else I wouldn't have chosen to live well over 2 decades here; most of the people I dearly love and on whom I can most rely are Thai.

Unlike you, apparently, I view them as people and individuals and have high regard for some Thais and not for others. Unlike you, I don't think they should all be given a pass as just being "different" and thus never wrong. Moral relativism mostly disgusts me as, while I believe things need to be judged in a historical, social, cultural context for accuracy and fairness, I believe some things are simply wrong, full stop. Sometimes Thais are right, and sometimes they are wrong. Just like anyone else.

You consistently exhibit a paternalistic and condescending attitude towards Thais in your idealization of them and a seeming desire for them to be viewed as some sort of noble and pure simple people (ie a bon sauvage) that can't be held to any sort of standards that are widely held elsewhere. I assure you that among the dozens and dozens of Thai friends and colleagues I've had over the years, you'd be hard pressed to find any that would agree -- most of them see the same things wrong with their country that I do (just as I see plenty wrong with my own).

Like the author of the OP for example...

Yes it is a bit simplistic but that is a opinion based on your western education.

Huh?! That makes no sense. (And moreover you haven't the slightest idea about my education or what I base my ideas on -- but let me give you a tiny hint: I've spent nearly half my life in Asia and my ideas come from a vast array of sources -- among those sources are my study and life experiences far away from the west).

Can't you see it's kind of silly to try and rebut everything with the retort, "that's because of your western standards/education"?

I'll be interested in reading your reply tomorrow...

Edited July 9, 2011 by SteeleJoe