Bangkok CentralWorld Witness Describes 'Molotov Cocktails'

[webfact]

CentralWorld witness describes 'Molotov cocktails'

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

An electrician working for Zen department store yesterday told the Criminal Court that he believed he saw a man handing out open energy-drink bottles with cloth sticking out the top to other men in the basement of the mall, just days before Zen and other parts of CentralWorld were burned down.

Daen-archa Raksakul, acting as a prosecution witness, said the incident happened on the night of either May 15 or May 16 last year.

The two defendants in the case, Saichon Paebua, 29, and Pinij Jannarong, 27, also appeared at Bangkok's Southern Criminal Court yesterday, shackled and looking pensive. They have been detained without bail since their arrests about a month after the May 19 fires.

The two are charged with arson, murder of a man who died of suffocation inside CentralWorld, and violation of the emergency decree. Both are pleading not guilty.

Facing death if convicted

The men could face the death penalty if convicted. The trial will likely go on until next year.

Two more defendants are minors and being tried separately in juvenile court.

Asked whether the witness recognised the faces of the defendants, Daen-archa told the court he had never seen them before.

The defence lawyer tried to cast doubt on whether Daen-archa was able to clearly see the bottles at 9pm, since electric lights on the B1 level of the department store were relatively far apart from each other.

The witness admitted he couldn't be sure of what was contained in the bottles.

However, the witness said he believed he saw cloth sticking out of the open bottles, which could suggest they were Molotov cocktails.

After Daen-archa finished giving testimony, The Nation asked him whether he had reported the unusual sighting to the police or his superiors. He said he had not.

"Because I wasn't sure [about what I actually saw]," Daen-archa said. "I don't know who started the fire. From what I heard, there were real red shirts, fake red shirts, men in black..."

Insurance firms and legal representatives of companies affected by the fire are closely observing the case, since damages amounted to about Bt8.89 billion.

-- The Nation 2011-07-14

[jonclark]

I bet the insurance firms are watching the outcome of this. If the reds are found guilty, expect litigation in the billions. Hope Thida et al have got some savings. Interesting if it proven to be the armys doing!! My own view - Not enough evidence, no one did it sweep it under the carpet - next.

[nocturn]

I think you are missing the salient points of the testimony:

1. I was dark, im not sure

2. never seen the guys on trial before

3. not sure who i did see, could have been a red shirt, fake red shirt or black shirt

could they have introduced more reasonable doubt?

[Thaddeus]

I think you are missing the salient points of the testimony:

1. I was dark, im not sure

2. never seen the guys on trial before

3. not sure who i did see, could have been a red shirt, fake red shirt or black shirt

could they have introduced more reasonable doubt?

Only if he entered the court room with a guide dog.

[KhunBJ]

Well I hope for the prosecutor that they have better witnesses else they have a really poor case here..;-)

[OzMick]

I think you are missing the salient points of the testimony:

1. I was dark, im not sure

2. never seen the guys on trial before

3. not sure who i did see, could have been a red shirt, fake red shirt or black shirt

could they have introduced more reasonable doubt?

Only if he entered the court room with a guide dog.

His real problem is when he leaves the courtroom, as they are giving his name, occupation and previous employer, and the arsonists are currently forming the new government.

Timing is also important in his evidence - he saw Molotov cocktails (in his opinion) being prepared well before the big push started, when the area was swarming with red-shirts and the army were scarce. Its also a bit illogical that the army would come there to prepare incendiaries when they have a nice private barracks to do it in, if they were so inclined.

[tragickingdom]

Funny enough, the Video was so unclear no one was recognizable. The guards on duty did not know if the accused were taking part in the riot and wht is most shocking : CEntral World, DSI and the SLORC had told that Central Wold would be burned down. Still as is the case with the many robberies of war weapons, coincidental there were no extra guards on duty and no additional security was in place. This happens of course often in banana republics, after all what is more convenient than burning down a few buildings and accusing the opposition???

Central has a lot of explaining to do. If I was the insurance company I would not pay out before they had explained to me why there were only a handful of guards on duty while they were told that Central would burn. The entire case stinks.

[maidu]

I recall hearing reports at that time, that fire dept personnel were blocked from getting to the scene by Red shirts.

I agree, it's sad but believable that there was a paucity of security (if any at all) at those arson sites at that time.

All in all, the police action before during and after the Red occupation of Bangkok rates an E minus. All police active in Bkk for those months should be give a medal shaped like a little hot dog, called 'Dick with No Balls.'

[rubl]

Funny enough, the Video was so unclear no one was recognizable. The guards on duty did not know if the accused were taking part in the riot and wht is most shocking : CEntral World, DSI and the SLORC had told that Central Wold would be burned down. Still as is the case with the many robberies of war weapons, coincidental there were no extra guards on duty and no additional security was in place. This happens of course often in banana republics, after all what is more convenient than burning down a few buildings and accusing the opposition???

Central has a lot of explaining to do. If I was the insurance company I would not pay out before they had explained to me why there were only a handful of guards on duty while they were told that Central would burn. The entire case stinks.

Whereas I agree not to have much sympathy for either the Central Group or the Insurance Companies, I think it's a bit ludicrous to complain 'only a handful of guards on duty' because 'told Central would burn'. CentralWorld in the midst of the 'red' area, warnings, shooting, who would dare to use 'unarmed guards' as protection. The army was armed, but not there yet. Coincidentally the red-shirts, UDD leaders and some unknowns with grenade launchers were.

Well , at least we know for sure, whatever the UDD leaders have said (or rather shouted), it wasn't them, they already surrendered.

The entire case stinks like a torched building, IMHO.

Edited July 14, 2011 by rubl

[Emptyset]

Funny enough, the Video was so unclear no one was recognizable. The guards on duty did not know if the accused were taking part in the riot and wht is most shocking : CEntral World, DSI and the SLORC had told that Central Wold would be burned down. Still as is the case with the many robberies of war weapons, coincidental there were no extra guards on duty and no additional security was in place. This happens of course often in banana republics, after all what is more convenient than burning down a few buildings and accusing the opposition???

Central has a lot of explaining to do. If I was the insurance company I would not pay out before they had explained to me why there were only a handful of guards on duty while they were told that Central would burn. The entire case stinks.

Whereas I agree not to have much sympathy for either the Central Group or the Insurance Companies, I think it's a bit ludicrous to complain 'only a handful of guards on duty' because 'told Central would burn'. CentralWorld in the midst of the 'red' area, warnings, shooting, who would dare to use 'unarmed guards' as protection. The army was armed, but not there yet. Coincidentally the red-shirts, UDD leaders and some unknowns with grenade launchers were.

Well , at least we know for sure, whatever the UDD leaders have said (or rather shouted), it wasn't them, they already surrendered.

The entire case stinks like a torched building, IMHO.

Paragon hired a general to take care of it. I wonder if that's why it didn't get torched, no one was going to dare to go near it knowing that guy and his gang were there. Although maybe it just wasn't a target.

[rubl]

Funny enough, the Video was so unclear no one was recognizable. The guards on duty did not know if the accused were taking part in the riot and wht is most shocking : CEntral World, DSI and the SLORC had told that Central Wold would be burned down. Still as is the case with the many robberies of war weapons, coincidental there were no extra guards on duty and no additional security was in place. This happens of course often in banana republics, after all what is more convenient than burning down a few buildings and accusing the opposition???

Central has a lot of explaining to do. If I was the insurance company I would not pay out before they had explained to me why there were only a handful of guards on duty while they were told that Central would burn. The entire case stinks.

Whereas I agree not to have much sympathy for either the Central Group or the Insurance Companies, I think it's a bit ludicrous to complain 'only a handful of guards on duty' because 'told Central would burn'. CentralWorld in the midst of the 'red' area, warnings, shooting, who would dare to use 'unarmed guards' as protection. The army was armed, but not there yet. Coincidentally the red-shirts, UDD leaders and some unknowns with grenade launchers were.

Well , at least we know for sure, whatever the UDD leaders have said (or rather shouted), it wasn't them, they already surrendered.

The entire case stinks like a torched building, IMHO.

Paragon hired a general to take care of it. I wonder if that's why it didn't get torched, no one was going to dare to go near it knowing that guy and his gang were there. Although maybe it just wasn't a target.

First time I hear a general was involved keeping Paragon safe. Mind you the family controlling Central Group seems a bit Democrats leaning, the family controlling Paragon, etc., a bit more supportive to Pheu Thai. Still as you say, may be it just wasn't a target, too far from the main stage perhaps

[Thaddeus]

Funny enough, the Video was so unclear no one was recognizable. The guards on duty did not know if the accused were taking part in the riot and wht is most shocking : CEntral World, DSI and the SLORC had told that Central Wold would be burned down. Still as is the case with the many robberies of war weapons, coincidental there were no extra guards on duty and no additional security was in place. This happens of course often in banana republics, after all what is more convenient than burning down a few buildings and accusing the opposition???

Central has a lot of explaining to do. If I was the insurance company I would not pay out before they had explained to me why there were only a handful of guards on duty while they were told that Central would burn. The entire case stinks.

Whereas I agree not to have much sympathy for either the Central Group or the Insurance Companies, I think it's a bit ludicrous to complain 'only a handful of guards on duty' because 'told Central would burn'. CentralWorld in the midst of the 'red' area, warnings, shooting, who would dare to use 'unarmed guards' as protection. The army was armed, but not there yet. Coincidentally the red-shirts, UDD leaders and some unknowns with grenade launchers were.

Well , at least we know for sure, whatever the UDD leaders have said (or rather shouted), it wasn't them, they already surrendered.

The entire case stinks like a torched building, IMHO.

Paragon hired a general to take care of it. I wonder if that's why it didn't get torched, no one was going to dare to go near it knowing that guy and his gang were there. Although maybe it just wasn't a target.

First time I hear a general was involved keeping Paragon safe. Mind you the family controlling Central Group seems a bit Democrats leaning, the family controlling Paragon, etc., a bit more supportive to Pheu Thai. Still as you say, may be it just wasn't a target, too far from the main stage perhaps

Or just less flammable.

[whybother]

Or just less flammable.

With the aquarium in the basement, it probably wasn't going to light up as easily as CW.

[rubl]

Or just less flammable.

With the aquarium in the basement, it probably wasn't going to light up as easily as CW.

No offence meant, but with fire tending to move up rather than down, this can hardly be qualified as one of your most intelligent posts. I would almost say 'why bother'. Written in good spirit(s)

[warfie]

Probably just coincidence or the energy drink bottles committing suicide... or both...

[Fookhaht]

I think you are missing the salient points of the testimony:

1. I was dark, im not sure

2. never seen the guys on trial before

3. not sure who i did see, could have been a red shirt, fake red shirt or black shirt

could they have introduced more reasonable doubt?

Only if he entered the court room with a guide dog.

[maidu]

Well, if the usual ineptitude of Thai investigations prevails (coupled with subjectivity and laziness), then we can't expect any convictions on the arson charges.

When the Bali night club was bombed, a few years ago, Indonesians wisely brought in Australian investigators. If left to Indonesian (SE Asian's) investigative prowess, the murderers wouldn't have been found. SE Asian's just don't have that ability to 'think outside the box' - particularly in investigative cases. Partly to blame: their rote system of schooling and the constant pressure to think like everybody else.

[Babcock]

Funny enough, the Video was so unclear no one was recognizable. The guards on duty did not know if the accused were taking part in the riot and wht is most shocking : CEntral World, DSI and the SLORC had told that Central Wold would be burned down. Still as is the case with the many robberies of war weapons, coincidental there were no extra guards on duty and no additional security was in place. This happens of course often in banana republics, after all what is more convenient than burning down a few buildings and accusing the opposition???

Central has a lot of explaining to do. If I was the insurance company I would not pay out before they had explained to me why there were only a handful of guards on duty while they were told that Central would burn. The entire case stinks.

Whereas I agree not to have much sympathy for either the Central Group or the Insurance Companies, I think it's a bit ludicrous to complain 'only a handful of guards on duty' because 'told Central would burn'. CentralWorld in the midst of the 'red' area, warnings, shooting, who would dare to use 'unarmed guards' as protection. The army was armed, but not there yet. Coincidentally the red-shirts, UDD leaders and some unknowns with grenade launchers were.

Well , at least we know for sure, whatever the UDD leaders have said (or rather shouted), it wasn't them, they already surrendered.

The entire case stinks like a torched building, IMHO.

Paragon hired a general to take care of it. I wonder if that's why it didn't get torched, no one was going to dare to go near it knowing that guy and his gang were there. Although maybe it just wasn't a target.

First time I hear a general was involved keeping Paragon safe. Mind you the family controlling Central Group seems a bit Democrats leaning, the family controlling Paragon, etc., a bit more supportive to Pheu Thai. Still as you say, may be it just wasn't a target, too far from the main stage perhaps

Here for all of you TV posters a pdf of what was posted a while back on the internet from security guards camera/phone at Centralworld. Note the red walkie talkies and id clipons. All staff led from Centralworld by soldiers who look very casual,standing around and we're meant to believe from Suthep that terrorists were in the building at this time. We see the beginning of the fire with smoke rising from the roof. Staff then come under attack from gunmen on BTS skytrain track overlooking the temple where 2000 people took refuge. Centralworld is nextdoor to Wat Pathum.

[whybother]

Here for all of you TV posters a pdf of what was posted a while back on the internet from security guards camera/phone at Centralworld. Note the red walkie talkies and id clipons. All staff led from Centralworld by soldiers who look very casual,standing around and we're meant to believe from Suthep that terrorists were in the building at this time. We see the beginning of the fire with smoke rising from the roof. Staff then come under attack from gunmen on BTS skytrain track overlooking the temple where 2000 people took refuge. Centralworld is nextdoor to Wat Pathum.

I'll help you with the PDF you didn't supply.

A link to a description of the photos. http://asiancorrespondent.com/43506/photos-from-may-19-an-update/

Since when did soldiers carry red walkie talkies?

[Babcock]

word doc

[whybother]

word doc

Didn't work again. But don't bother, all the photos are available with explanations in the link provided.

[bendejo]

Is the witness still alive?

[rubl]

Here for all of you TV posters a pdf of what was posted a while back on the internet from security guards camera/phone at Centralworld. Note the red walkie talkies and id clipons. All staff led from Centralworld by soldiers who look very casual,standing around and we're meant to believe from Suthep that terrorists were in the building at this time. We see the beginning of the fire with smoke rising from the roof. Staff then come under attack from gunmen on BTS skytrain track overlooking the temple where 2000 people took refuge. Centralworld is nextdoor to Wat Pathum.

I'll help you with the PDF you didn't supply.

A link to a description of the photos. http://asiancorrespondent.com/43506/photos-from-may-19-an-update/

Since when did soldiers carry red walkie talkies?

As this seems to come up every three months or so, with the same pro and cons, and a lot of BS, let's just post the starting point to (probably) the last discussion on this before.

"Posted 2011-03-18 11:38:20

Thai lawmakers blame PM for mall fire"

[Babcock]

Here for all of you TV posters a pdf of what was posted a while back on the internet from security guards camera/phone at Centralworld. Note the red walkie talkies and id clipons. All staff led from Centralworld by soldiers who look very casual,standing around and we're meant to believe from Suthep that terrorists were in the building at this time. We see the beginning of the fire with smoke rising from the roof. Staff then come under attack from gunmen on BTS skytrain track overlooking the temple where 2000 people took refuge. Centralworld is nextdoor to Wat Pathum.

I'll help you with the PDF you didn't supply.

A link to a description of the photos. http://asiancorrespo...y-19-an-update/

Since when did soldiers carry red walkie talkies?

It was the security staff who carried them as is clear in the pictures to the appraisal from Bangkok Pundit. I've tried to upload both a word doc and pdf without success. There are high rez pictures available and the guy withthe slingshot has just been shot and blood can be seen.

I'll try again! File too large.

central world burning.pdf

[whybother]

Here for all of you TV posters a pdf of what was posted a while back on the internet from security guards camera/phone at Centralworld. Note the red walkie talkies and id clipons. All staff led from Centralworld by soldiers who look very casual,standing around and we're meant to believe from Suthep that terrorists were in the building at this time. We see the beginning of the fire with smoke rising from the roof. Staff then come under attack from gunmen on BTS skytrain track overlooking the temple where 2000 people took refuge. Centralworld is nextdoor to Wat Pathum.

I'll help you with the PDF you didn't supply.

A link to a description of the photos. http://asiancorrespo...y-19-an-update/

Since when did soldiers carry red walkie talkies?

It was the security staff who carried them as is clear in the pictures to the appraisal from Bangkok Pundit. I've tried to upload both a word doc and pdf without success. There are high rez pictures available and the guy withthe slingshot has just been shot and blood can be seen.

I'll try again! File too large.

Where is there any photo of staff being led out by soldiers?

Are the photos of the soldiers even related to CW? Why would they have riot shields? Why would they be just leaning against the wall? At the stage of the CW fire, soldiers were moving through the area in gun fights with the red shirts. They wouldn't be just standing around being relaxed.

Edited July 16, 2011 by whybother

[rubl]

Here for all of you TV posters a pdf of what was posted a while back on the internet from security guards camera/phone at Centralworld. Note the red walkie talkies and id clipons. All staff led from Centralworld by soldiers who look very casual,standing around and we're meant to believe from Suthep that terrorists were in the building at this time. We see the beginning of the fire with smoke rising from the roof. Staff then come under attack from gunmen on BTS skytrain track overlooking the temple where 2000 people took refuge. Centralworld is nextdoor to Wat Pathum.

I'll help you with the PDF you didn't supply.

A link to a description of the photos. http://asiancorrespo...y-19-an-update/

Since when did soldiers carry red walkie talkies?

It was the security staff who carried them as is clear in the pictures to the appraisal from Bangkok Pundit. I've tried to upload both a word doc and pdf without success. There are high rez pictures available and the guy withthe slingshot has just been shot and blood can be seen.

I'll try again! File too large.

BangkokPundit has (mostly) the same photo's, but with details indicated. The PDF has a bit of 'propaganda' below the photo's, close to 'see, they did this' and photo's which BangkokPundit doesn't show (mostly CWT personel(?) and army). Furthermore links to at least one site which seems blocked in Thailand and a link to a Thai blog. Since the photo's appeared begin of December 2010 no new information, lots of speculation, mostly 'it must have been the army which started the fire', no proof of anything.

As I said before, just read one of the topics on this, regularly coming back without new info. Here's another one:

"Posted 2011-03-18 11:38:20

Thai lawmakers blame PM for mall fire"

Edited July 16, 2011 by rubl

[Siam Simon]

Here for all of you TV posters a pdf of what was posted a while back on the internet from security guards camera/phone at Centralworld. Note the red walkie talkies and id clipons. All staff led from Centralworld by soldiers who look very casual,standing around and we're meant to believe from Suthep that terrorists were in the building at this time. We see the beginning of the fire with smoke rising from the roof. Staff then come under attack from gunmen on BTS skytrain track overlooking the temple where 2000 people took refuge. Centralworld is nextdoor to Wat Pathum.

I'll help you with the PDF you didn't supply.

A link to a description of the photos. http://asiancorrespo...y-19-an-update/

Since when did soldiers carry red walkie talkies?

It was the security staff who carried them as is clear in the pictures to the appraisal from Bangkok Pundit. I've tried to upload both a word doc and pdf without success. There are high rez pictures available and the guy withthe slingshot has just been shot and blood can be seen.

I'll try again! File too large.

Where is there any photo of staff being led out by soldiers?

Are the photos of the soldiers even related to CW? Why would they have riot shields? Why would they be just leaning against the wall? At the stage of the CW fire, soldiers were moving through the area in gun fights with the red shirts. They wouldn't be just standing around being relaxed.

They would if they'd secured CTW.

[rubl]

They would if they'd secured CTW.

Simon, we had this discussion before. In the mean time no new information has come up, apart from the HRW report and the currently ongoing court case.

Shall we agree we still don't agree?

Lots of the discussion was in here, just start from #1 and keep reading :-)

or just skip to your first post remaining #78:

Edited July 16, 2011 by rubl

[whybother]

They would if they'd secured CTW.

Even (hugely big) IF they had secured CTW, there was still a lot of fighting going on. They wouldn't have been standing around leaning against walls.

And WHEN did you see any soldiers with riot shields on May 19? They went in with APC's because they were being shot at. Do you really think they would have used riot shields to protect them from bullets.

That's nearly as good as your "He must have been shot by soldiers because he got hit in the leg" argument.

[longway]

A very good analysis of the photos

Conclusions

The photographs show that were at least three groups of people inside CTW in the hours just before the fire: (1) small numbers of protesters, who may have been looting; (2) CTW security guards, who apparently fled the mall after being fired at; and (3) unseen gunmen. Whether there was more than one group of gunmen, and whether the same gunmen shot the security guards in Photos 15-28 and the protester with the slingshot in Photo 9 (if he was indeed shot), we simply do not know based on these photographs.

The photographs also show at least three different sources of apparent gunfire: (1) unseen shooter(s) inside CTW, who fired upon security guards and possibly fired at a protester; (2) unseen shooter(s) located near the northeast corner of Siam Paragon; and (3) unseen shooter(s) on the west side of Siam Paragon, possibly connected to the camouflaged man in the ski mask photographed on the Siam BTS platform.

As discussed above, the photographer was almost certainly a security guard for CTW. This raises an important question: Have the security guards from inside the mall been questioned as to what they saw at CTW before the fire? Many faces can be clearly seen. No doubt they saw more than was photographed here. Will any journalists step up and track down these witnesses?

Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd made a response to these photographs on behalf of CRES this past Tuesday, December 7th. (See the Matichon report.) He dismissed the photographs, saying they contain nothing new.

And while these photographs do not provide us with any ground shaking new conclusions about the CentralWorld fire, their release and the ongoing public response is striking, because it demonstrates how little information the public actually has about what happened. More than six months later we're still guessing, still bickering about who did what.

The government's dismissal of this new evidence out of hand, and their refusal to acknowledge and respond to a public clearly hungry for more information, simply demonstrates their ongoing dedication to a policy of strict opacity, and a lack of responsibility towards informing the public they are supposed to serve.