Bloody Neighbours

[lincdales]

Perhaps someone can give me some legal advice on a small problem I have with a neighbour (Or at least confirm MY view on the matter).In January we purchased an additional parcel of land at the foot of our garden with the intention of building a swimming pool. The land is surrounded on all four sides by neighbouring properties. To the south and west the boundary walls are owned by the neighbours. To the east we built a new wall to separate us from the person who sold us the land, and to the north we removed our own wall.We have had nothing but problems from the old fart who lives to the south of us. He complained immediately that, because we needed to raise our land by about 18 inches he would be overlooked, and insisted that we build a wall alongside his. My wife, being a Thai, could not come straight out and say” get f----cked”, but said only that she had no money for that. Whilst the pool was being constructed we planted dense bushes along his entire boundary and some 4 feet away from it so that he wouldn’t be overlooked.During construction of the pool he constantly complained to the workforce about the noise. We also purchased a puppy which did a bit of howling when shut in the kennel overnight- he complained to the local councillor about that! He complained that the raised soil level would damage his wall. We created a fall so that the soil finished below the beam of the wall. He then complained because the water collected in the created gully when it rained. We dug out and put in drainage to deeply set concrete rings with an automatic pump to pump it away. He complained to the local councillor again saying that he didn’t want the drain close to his wall and continued to insist upon a new wall being constructed against his.The latest is that he is saying when he built the wall (many years ago) he built it within his boundary. I assume from that that he considers part of the land on my side to belong to him!None of these complaints were made to me directly (it wouldn’t have served much purpose since my Thai is limited and I would probably have been a little impolite anyway). My wife is easy going and hates confrontation so the only response she gives is that she has no money for the job. I’ve told her that the guy doesn’t have a leg to stand on but all she can say is “this is Thailand”. By that does she mean that our neighbours can dictate to us what we can, or cannot do on our own property?

[Crossy]

I'm pretty sure that the law requires that boundary wall be build completely on your property (there's no shared boundary fence law), so he's right in his assertion that part of the land on your side of his wall is still his and you are encroaching on his property. How much is his should be determined by reference to the marker posts.

You do seem to have gone out of your way to placate the old chap, reacting to his every complaint.

Not sure of the next step, how about leasing the strip of land on your side of the wall for a nominal rent?

[ballbreaker]

I suggest you read the property section of civil code for Thai law. You can find here:

http://www.thailawonline.com/en/thai-laws/civil-code.html

Edited July 15, 2011 by ballbreaker

[Cuban]

Good fences make good neighbors, the best fences are a long way away.

[cmsally]

There is no way the guy can own land on your side of the wall, unless of course he built it in the wrong place.

You need to check where your land markers are and if he's built it correctly. If you think its not correct and you want to have it checked , you can then ask the land dept to come and measure.

To some extent if he built the wall he shows agreement to where the boundary should be, as its not easy to move it after. As for him demanding you build a wall on your property - that is absolute bull---- ! Ownership of boundary fences is a bit vague but it is generally who builds it looks after it. You could be a good neighbour and offer to make the wall a bit higher but other than that its all rubbish.

Incidentally he may have built the wall in the wrong place (or not as the case may be) and you could find that if you built a twin wall he would immediately knock his down thus increasing his property. You could then find yourself in that unspoken void of having built the wall and therefore agreed the boundary. He would therefore go checkmate.

Or alternatively he's not that clever and he's just a pain in the ---

[thaicbr]

I would build a big ugly wall (ugly on his side) then top it with broken glass/ razor wire (check that can be done legally. sure it can as long as it's on your property)

Then see what the old bastard does.

oR JUST TOTALLY IGNORE HIM.

[dave111223]

It's pretty odd that someone would think they could force you to build something (in the case a wall) on your land?

Maybe he'll ask you to build a gazebo and a few bird houses next?

IMHO it doesn't even require a response when such demands are made.

[lincdales]

I suggest you read the property section of civil code for Thai law. You can find here:

http://www.thailawon...civil-code.html

I am very grateful to everyone who has responded to this posting, but your reference was most interesting and reminded me of another point.

When we first purchased the land my wife aproached the man and asked in the friendliest terms if we could tidy up his wall and paint it since it was very dirty. He refused point blank. The problem has been resolved by masking his wall with trees and bushes, but I wonder if we have the right to clean the wall up without his permission.

I refer to section 1344 of the property act in which it states that the boundary walls are jointly owned.

[Crossy]

I refer to section 1344 of the property act in which it states that the boundary walls are jointly owned.

The question is, is it actually a boundary wall since (he says) it was built entirely on his land? If it is on his property some land on your side is technically still owned by him.

I don't think he can force you to build a wall, but he can certainly prohibit you from accessing his strip of land and 'defacing' his wall.

Are the land markers visible?

[cmsally]

As far as I've seen from experience. If you want to do up the wall on your side which does not affect his side there can be no problem.

we bought a piece of property which only had one boundary wall, ie one neighbour, the other sides we built. We faced the entire wall with concrete and then painted. Never asked their permission. But had no affect on them whatsoever. If its a wire or wood fence then of course somewhat different.

[Langsuan Man]

Shouldn't the title be Bloody Neighbor, since the rest seem to be OK

[PattayaParent]

According to another post http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4560990 his wall should be 6 inches from his actual boundary so if you've put in dense bushes on your side 4 feet from his wall you should be fine.

Just ignore him and get your missus to ask him for the money to build the wall whenever he mentions it.

Edit: if he doesn't want to be overlooked then tell him to build his own wall up 18 inches higher!!

Edited July 16, 2011 by PattayaParent

[lincdales]

Many thanks for all your advice, all of which confirms my own feelings on the matter. I am now resigned to the fact that we have a mentally retarded neighbour and intend to treat him as such. However, you may be interested to learn of the latest episodes in this never ending sage, but first let me tell you that the area we purchased was waste land which contained asll sorts of vermin together with chickens, geese and very noisy cockerils. Now it is a landscaped paradise with lawns and mature tres etc. Ther reason I say this is not to show off but to suggest that the neighbours from hell have a much better outlook than before.

On Monday we held a pool opening party. About 100 guests including a dozen or so farang and a multitude of children. Also a live geriatric rock band of German origin. The rock band started practising at 3pm for an hour or so, Then played on and off to the guests from 5 to 10pm. We now understand that the neighbour in question complained no less than 4 times to the local constabulary. They never showed up but it so happens that one of our guests was actually a senior member of the police force! As it happened, our other neighbour ( who is a lawyer)and his family sat out in their garden and enjoyed every minute of it.

It doesn't end there. Today I had a visit from the local council with a complaint that our pool is breeding mosquitos! They were also interested in seeing my visa. They wouldn't say where the complaint came from but it doesn't take much figuring out.

[thaiwanderer]

Ther reason I say this is not to show off but to suggest that the neighbours from hell have a much better outlook than before.

I suspect their view may be entirely the opposite.

As to the tone of the rest of your post I'm reminded of pride coming before a fall.

[Artisi]

They were also interested in seeing my visa.

Nothing to do with the local council.

But as you need to stay friendly with the council, I would just tell them my visa is perfectly in order in accordance with the immigration laws and leave it at that.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Artisi

[JRinger]

Looks like you've dug yourself a fairly deep pit.

All the legal advice and whatnot won't do you much good after stepping on your neighbor's toes, as it seems obvious.

His plan is to make your life is miserable for eternity. You are not Thai, you have no rights in this country unless you pay for them and even then, those 'rights' are temporary. Even more so if you're wife/girlfriend isn't from that area or village.

By all means, pay out the nose for a farang lawyer who won't guarantee anything but will expect money in advance.

If you're going to live in this country you need to get a grasp of the Thai language as well as accepting the local customs, even if you fake it.

I can almost visualize you, your wife and neighbor standing there arguing while you're telling your wife to tell him this and that and she probably only understands or remembers small bits of what your saying; then, you're nagging at her, "what did he say?" and no doubt your response is "Bullshit", fark him, of which he understands with the help of your facial expression.

Anyway, most neighbors everywhere are friends in the beginning and then become enemies for some reason or other.

I'd sell the place and move or wise up and have a little respect for people who do have legal and customary rights, unlike yourself. Doesn't matter how much money you have unless you're willing to pay off everyone for your remaining years in that house but still no guarantee that the problems will disappear.

[lincdales]

Looks like you've dug yourself a fairly deep pit.

All the legal advice and whatnot won't do you much good after stepping on your neighbor's toes, as it seems obvious.

His plan is to make your life is miserable for eternity. You are not Thai, you have no rights in this country unless you pay for them and even then, those 'rights' are temporary. Even more so if you're wife/girlfriend isn't from that area or village.

By all means, pay out the nose for a farang lawyer who won't guarantee anything but will expect money in advance.

If you're going to live in this country you need to get a grasp of the Thai language as well as accepting the local customs, even if you fake it.

I can almost visualize you, your wife and neighbor standing there arguing while you're telling your wife to tell him this and that and she probably only understands or remembers small bits of what your saying; then, you're nagging at her, "what did he say?" and no doubt your response is "Bullshit", fark him, of which he understands with the help of your facial expression.

Anyway, most neighbors everywhere are friends in the beginning and then become enemies for some reason or other.

I'd sell the place and move or wise up and have a little respect for people who do have legal and customary rights, unlike yourself. Doesn't matter how much money you have unless you're willing to pay off everyone for your remaining years in that house but still no guarantee that the problems will disappear.

Oh NOW I know where I am going wrong! I will go visit him immediately;I already have my speech prepared. “Mr Thai man I am sorry that you have wastedso much time persecuting me over the past 6 months. Please forgive me for I am only a stupidfarang who wasn’t aware that it was a Thai custom to harangue yourneighbours. How can I make amends? Perhaps you would like me to remove all thosenasty trees and bushes then build a wall one metre away from yours. I could then make you a gift of the metrestrip of land. Or maybe I could fill inthe pool and bulldoze everything into its original fabulous state before I hadthe effrontery to develop the land. Inaddition I could kiss your arse once a week for eternity”.

How dare you presume to teach me manners? Approaching my septuagenarian years I do notneed such advice. “You have no rights in this country” Bullshit! Not withstanding that, my wife is Thai, she is a successful and well respected businesswoman, and she owns the property. Doesn’tshe have rights, or did she forgo these when she was stupid enough to marry afarang? She has also lived in this area for most of her life.

“Get a grasp of the Thai language” I’ve lived in thiscountry for only 2.5 years; I speak enough Thai to get by in everydaysituations, but by no stretch of the imagination could I hold an in depthdiscussion about boundary rights. Isuspect this applies to the vast majority of farangs.

“Accept the local customs” We live on a middle class estatecomprising mostly professionals and business people. I am the only foreigner. I know most of them and many are goodfriends. I teach their children; theyoften bring round gifts and their kids are always welcome to use the pool. Frankly if I didn’t accept their customs andway of life they probably wouldn’t give me the time of day.

“Stand there arguing” Apart from the initial approach by mywife when she asked if she could tidy up the wall neither if us has spoken tothe neighbour – his complaints have always been through third parties. I do remember when I first levelled the site;they were looking over the wall at me. Igave the TRADITION greeting. They lookedstraight through me without response. Another Thai was with me at the time and he considered that to be totally unacceptable.

“Have a little respect” After what I’ve just written? I show respect when it is deserved.

My original posting was to invite informed opinions relatingto the dispute over the wall. Thereplies have confirmed my opinion on the matter and I don’t intend to lose anysleep over it. H

Edited August 9, 2011 by Crossy
Flame removed.

[kwonitoy]

Looks like you've dug yourself a fairly deep pit.

All the legal advice and whatnot won't do you much good after stepping on your neighbor's toes, as it seems obvious.

His plan is to make your life is miserable for eternity. You are not Thai, you have no rights in this country unless you pay for them and even then, those 'rights' are temporary. Even more so if you're wife/girlfriend isn't from that area or village.

By all means, pay out the nose for a farang lawyer who won't guarantee anything but will expect money in advance.

If you're going to live in this country you need to get a grasp of the Thai language as well as accepting the local customs, even if you fake it.

I can almost visualize you, your wife and neighbor standing there arguing while you're telling your wife to tell him this and that and she probably only understands or remembers small bits of what your saying; then, you're nagging at her, "what did he say?" and no doubt your response is "Bullshit", fark him, of which he understands with the help of your facial expression.

Anyway, most neighbors everywhere are friends in the beginning and then become enemies for some reason or other.

I'd sell the place and move or wise up and have a little respect for people who do have legal and customary rights, unlike yourself. Doesn't matter how much money you have unless you're willing to pay off everyone for your remaining years in that house but still no guarantee that the problems will disappear.

Oh NOW I know where I am going wrong! I will go visit him immediately;I already have my speech prepared. “Mr Thai man I am sorry that you have wastedso much time persecuting me over the past 6 months. Please forgive me for I am only a stupidfarang who wasn’t aware that it was a Thai custom to harangue yourneighbours. How can I make amends? Perhaps you would like me to remove all thosenasty trees and bushes then build a wall one metre away from yours. I could then make you a gift of the metrestrip of land. Or maybe I could fill inthe pool and bulldoze everything into its original fabulous state before I hadthe effrontery to develop the land. Inaddition I could kiss your arse once a week for eternity”.

How dare you presume to teach me manners? Approaching my septuagenarian years I do notneed such advice. “You have no rights in this country” Bullshit! Not withstanding that, my wife is Thai, she is a successful and well respected businesswoman, and she owns the property. Doesn’tshe have rights, or did she forgo these when she was stupid enough to marry afarang? She has also lived in this area for most of her life.

“Get a grasp of the Thai language” I’ve lived in thiscountry for only 2.5 years; I speak enough Thai to get by in everydaysituations, but by no stretch of the imagination could I hold an in depthdiscussion about boundary rights. Isuspect this applies to the vast majority of farangs.

“Accept the local customs” We live on a middle class estatecomprising mostly professionals and business people. I am the only foreigner. I know most of them and many are goodfriends. I teach their children; theyoften bring round gifts and their kids are always welcome to use the pool. Frankly if I didn’t accept their customs andway of life they probably wouldn’t give me the time of day.

“Stand there arguing” Apart from the initial approach by mywife when she asked if she could tidy up the wall neither if us has spoken tothe neighbour – his complaints have always been through third parties. I do remember when I first levelled the site;they were looking over the wall at me. Igave the TRADITION greeting. They lookedstraight through me without response. Another Thai was with me at the time and he considered that to be totally unacceptable.

“Have a little respect” After what I’ve just written? I show respect when it is deserved.

My original posting was to invite informed opinions relatingto the dispute over the wall. Thereplies have confirmed my opinion on the matter and I don’t intend to lose anysleep over it.

Nicely put

+10

[Crossy]

OK, some posts which were not adding value have been removed, let's keep things on topic.

[Livinginexile]

Interesting topic, dispute resolution "Thai style" is something all us property owning farangs need to be aware of.

In my country before any construction or extentions to an existing house, one needs to apply to the local government (or body corperate if estate housing) for approval before any works can commence.

Is that also true for Thailand? I know one needs permission from the local government to build a house, shop drawings need to be approved etc but what about swimming pools, fences, extentions etc. Do these need approvals too?

[CDNinKS]

This is an excerpt from the link to Land Law:

Section1344. Fences walls, hedges or ditches, which serve as a boundary, are presumed to belong to the owners of the adjoining properties in common.

So it seems that regardless if the wall is totally on the neighbors land or not, you own it in common with him.

[maidu]

Having Thai neighbors can be challenging, to put it nicely. I am the 1st farang to move to my northern Thai village (since then, about 15 others have come here). Haven't had a Thai wife, so have had to do most interactions solo, with some help from Thai/hill tribe friends on occasion. Early days at my rural property were sometimes tough. In contrast to the poster's travails, I was the complainer. I complained mostly about noise (blaring radios, non-stop barking dogs) and sometimes baby poo laden pampers on my lawn, etc). Sometimes almost came to blows with my Thai neighbors, literally. Strange as it sounds, things have gotten better over the years. They know I stand up unflinchingly for what I know is right. They actually grin and wave when driving by, and I smile a wave back. We've found a balance of sorts. Maybe they call me 'farang ba' behind my back, I don't know. And yes, I'm lucky I haven't had a knife slid in to my kidney, as I know can happen in such scenarios.

A few years ago, I was invited to a NY's eve party next door. One Thai older man said he smelt sewage coming from my property. I asked him to be specific about where the smell came. He was drunk, and kept trying to laugh it off with all the Thai folks around. I was troubled, and took his comment literally, though I know how to do septic systems, as that was one of my specialties, when doing construction in the US. Another neighbor took me aside the next day and said, "he was drunk, and was trying to offend you. Don't worry about it." I got over it shortly, and now he's one of the guys who drives by and offers a friendly wave.

[pauljones]

Lovely neighbors. Typical I might add.

[moe666]

Invite the old fool, the neighbors and the local council over for a bar-b-que. Show then that there are no hard feelings. If youn want friendly neighbors be friendly, show them you are sanuk. If he want come then make sure the wife lets very know he was invited.

My friend here in the states just spent the last 3 years in court because of a crazy neighbor. Needless to say it cost the neighbor 150,000dollars to lose and my friend was covered by his home owners insurance. It was fun to set in court and watch the big needle pushed in to a over blown balloon and watch it collaspe before your eyes.

[Livinginexile]

So is local government approval required for extentions and/or improvements to exsisting property?

I ask this because perhaps this is a way to avoid all future conflict with neighbours!

Or do you guys just build it (fences, swimming pools etc) and hope for the best?