This Greek Tragedy Has A Lesson That Thailand Must Heed

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

This Greek tragedy has a lesson that Thailand must heed

By The Nation

New government's pledge of massive spending on public projects is an eerie echo of what happened in Greece

There are grave concerns across Europe that the possible default in Greece will drag other countries into financial crisis. European leaders are this week discussing steps they hope will control the region's debt crisis, after the situation grew more severe than they had predicted.

Although the European Union and the International Monetary Fund approved a bailout for Greece worth around US$160 billion in May last year, Greece is still in deep trouble and Athens urgently needs another rescue package.

The region's failure to fix the Greek crisis could create repercussions that affect the financial stability of the whole euro zone, and possibly spread to other parts of the world.

The seriousness of Greece's troubles should now serve as a lesson to other countries of the sanctity of fiscal and monetary discipline.

The Greek crisis came about as a result of years of unrestrained spending and the country's failure to reform its public sector. The government borrowed heavily on the international capital market to finance its bloated budget and current account deficit. The crisis was also a result of the Mediterranean country's entry into the euro zone, which enabled Greece to access capital at a lower interest rate.

In the meantime, the Greek government saw weaker revenue collection than it had expected.

The Greek debt debacle should serve as a warning for the incoming Thai government, which is now burdened by populist promises it made in the run-up to the election. These pledges of massive spending not only pose a risk to fiscal health but also to monetary discipline, because they threaten to push prices up further.

Many economists have warned that the second half of this year will be crucial for the Thai economy. Thailand will face both internal and external threats. Externally, the economy will be affected by the global financial recession. Internally, the expected massive government spending to realise Pheu Thai's populist policies will apply severe monetary pressure.

The decision of the Bank of Thailand's Monetary Policy Committee last week to raise the policy interest rate by 25 basis points was a message from the central bank that fiscal and monetary discipline must be adhered to for sustainable growth.

The Bank of Thailand was attempting to use the policy rate to curb the upward trend in prices.

Unfortunately, the Bank of Thailand, the guardian of monetary stability, is unlikely to get help from the fiscal side. The politicians have instead tried to seduce voters by offering an unrealistically high minimum wage and massive populist programmes, without considering the consequences.

Additional inflationary pressure could be a result of the incoming government's massive spending, especially incoming Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's plans to spend more than Bt1.8 trillion - or 16 per cent of the nation's GDP - over the next five years to finance 13 infrastructure projects.

The politicians often claim that these policies will have a "multiplier effect" to stimulate the economy. But if massive fiscal spending fails to yield the expected result for Thailand, just as it failed for Greece, we could run into a similar pattern of crisis.

The government must take into consideration the consequences of whatever policies it plans to implement. If it turns out that their pre-election promises will damage fiscal discipline, then the government must rethink its plans carefully.

The Yingluck government must also have the courage to tell the public the truth concerning the consequences of badly thought-out policies, rather than insisting on going ahead with unnecessary massive spending.

Thailand was able to recover from the 1997 financial crisis within just a couple of years because the country at that time did not have the kind of fiscal problems that Greece is now experiencing. The Thai financial crisis of 1997 was a result of excess borrowing in the private sector, not the public sector.

But if Thailand suffers a financial crisis due to an irresponsible fiscal policy platform, we may not be so lucky this time.

-- The Nation 2011-07-20

[rufanuf]

What a muted uninformed article. Europe's problems are as a result of governments trying to rob their own people and use the money they earn from their criminal tax codes to convince other nations to lend them even more ill gotten gains, that they can squander on ill advised socialist programmes (another definition of corruption). As I understand it Thailand's over all tax burden per capita is something like 17% versus theft (oop's sorry Tax) levels in excess of 50% or even 60% by many western governments.

Thailand has a long way to go before they can be seen as a Robin Hood state, that steals from the rich (or not so rich middle classes, in fact normal people) and gives to non nationals who have sussed out theres a free lunch going. They adopt very few socialist policies and the society at large has a much better grasp of what it means to be a capitalist than westerners do, which is why as expats its tough for us to make a good business out here, and rightly so!

Edited July 20, 2011 by rufanuf

[Samuian]

What a muted uninformed article. Europe's problems are as a result of governments trying to rob their own people and use the money they earn from their criminal tax codes to convince other nations to lend them even more ill gotten gains, that they can squander on ill advised socialist programmes (another definition of corruption). As I understand it Thailand's over all tax burden per capita is something like 17% versus theft (oop's sorry Tax) levels in excess of 50% or even 60% by many western governments.

Thailand has a long way to go before they can be seen as a Robin Hood state, that steals from the rich (or not so rich middle classes, in fact normal people) and gives to non nationals who have sussed out theres a free lunch going. They adopt very few socialist policies and the society at large has a much better grasp of what it means to be a capitalist than westerners do, which is why as expats its tough for us to make a good business out here, and rightly so!

It's pretty obvious that you are quite ill informed and attempt to sell an opinion as fact, which isn't true at all!

Thailand does have a progressive tax rate and many, many people who make "money from nothing and have the chicks for free!"

Just one reminder: sweatshops and "massage" parlours as well as "karaoke" bars en masse around and in this scene is massive exploitation going on, a complete corruptable bureaucracy, so much of the country is controllable by money and so called "influential people".

If the incoming government get's it's giant projects on the way, which are nothing but money spinners for the government's minions, Thailand will go the same way as greece, cause the same kind of corruption is robbing the state's enterprises blind!

Remember the tax evasion court case against the former PM about how many billions was it?

wake up!

Edited July 20, 2011 by Samuian

[tragickingdom]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt. The problem with the Nation is that it employs people who have troubles calculating and the newspaper is driven by hate for the Thaksin people because the NCC put the owners under investigation for corruption and being unusually wealthy.

There are a few comparisons that are valid though:

1. The THai elites are not paying their taxes and this is not only the case in the Thaksin AIS sale but for every businessman

2. The public sector is bloated and the poor and middle class need to pay for the swarm of bloodsucking civil servants from army to police and other government workers

3. Too many services are still not privatized.

Given the three mentioned reasons, there is more than enough financial space to carry out large infrastructural projects. By the way, Greece went downhill after the Olympics, wasn't it the Abhisit government who wanted to have huge things like the olympics and the world exhibition. After all there are always Chinese Thai ministers visiting CHina and think they should do the same.

[hammered]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt. The problem with the Nation is that it employs people who have troubles calculating and the newspaper is driven by hate for the Thaksin people because the NCC put the owners under investigation for corruption and being unusually wealthy.

There are a few comparisons that are valid though:

1. The THai elites are not paying their taxes and this is not only the case in the Thaksin AIS sale but for every businessman

2. The public sector is bloated and the poor and middle class need to pay for the swarm of bloodsucking civil servants from army to police and other government workers

3. Too many services are still not privatized.

Given the three mentioned reasons, there is more than enough financial space to carry out large infrastructural projects. By the way, Greece went downhill after the Olympics, wasn't it the Abhisit government who wanted to have huge things like the olympics and the world exhibition. After all there are always Chinese Thai ministers visiting CHina and think they should do the same.

Good point on the debt to GDP ratios. The fear mongering journalism over nothing does get wearing after a while.

I would add too much monopolistic practice allowed too

[Thai at Heart]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt. The problem with the Nation is that it employs people who have troubles calculating and the newspaper is driven by hate for the Thaksin people because the NCC put the owners under investigation for corruption and being unusually wealthy.

There are a few comparisons that are valid though:

1. The THai elites are not paying their taxes and this is not only the case in the Thaksin AIS sale but for every businessman

2. The public sector is bloated and the poor and middle class need to pay for the swarm of bloodsucking civil servants from army to police and other government workers

3. Too many services are still not privatized.

Given the three mentioned reasons, there is more than enough financial space to carry out large infrastructural projects. By the way, Greece went downhill after the Olympics, wasn't it the Abhisit government who wanted to have huge things like the olympics and the world exhibition. After all there are always Chinese Thai ministers visiting CHina and think they should do the same.

Indeed. Having lived and worked there for a few years about 9 years ago, the tax implications of employing someone were absolutely horrendous, government employees retired at 58 on 80% salary, private business owners payed virtually no tax it was patently obvious that there was NO WAY that the financial model that Greece possessed was ever going to be sustainable. There are a few societal parallels with Thailand but financially, Thailand is completely different to Greece, and this type of article is pure scare mongering

[laocowboy2]

I tend to be suspicious about 'economic' reports that lack numbers - and so I had a quick look at the Bank of Thailand and Bureau of the Budget websites, I hope I noted the following correctly but even if there are some slips, the overall message should be accurate. http://www.bb.go.th/...00/00000025.PDF for budget details

At end April, Thailand had total government debt of THB2,995.2 billion. This was equivalent to roughly 29% of GDP - which is within what is regarded internationally as safe limits (also see below*). By my rough calculation, the projected deficit for the current budgetary year (which finishes shortly) is around 4.18% of GDP - a little on the high side but not out of line for a rapidly growing developing country. International reserves as of July 8th were THB5,684 billion.

* GDP is probably understated as Thailand has a large informal economy.

Bottom line is that the incoming government was not left with the sort of mess that faced the incoming governments in either Greece or the UK. While budget deficits and borrowing grew over the last three years, this was a not inappropriate response to the 2008 Global crisis. Since then Thailand's trade patterns have shifted - over 50% of export trade is now with other Asian countries. The problems of Europe and the US therefore have a limited direct effect on Thailand although indirect effects may show over time.

I am not saying that the PT economic plicies (whatever they are - everyone seems to have a different set) are well thought out and appropriate. oOr that the rice price and minimum wage proposals are either appropriate or affordable. What I am saying is that there is some room for spending - particularly of some of the more uneconomic current expenditures are reined in (hello Army?).

[blacksuitdandruff]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt.

I'm not a mathematician or economist by any means, but using your ratio stats of 142% vs. 42% for Greece and Thailand debt/GDP ratio respectively, isn't Greece's ratio 238% (=142%/42% - 100%) greater relatively to Thailand's ratio?

I believe you were using a absolute measure comparison which cannot be used when comparing relative figures such as percentages. Or is it an exponential or log calculation that is needed? Any math savants want to chime in?

[tonbridgebrit]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt. The problem with the Nation is that it employs people who have troubles calculating and the newspaper is driven by hate for the Thaksin people because the NCC put the owners under investigation for corruption and being unusually wealthy.

There are a few comparisons that are valid though:

1. The THai elites are not paying their taxes and this is not only the case in the Thaksin AIS sale but for every businessman

2. The public sector is bloated and the poor and middle class need to pay for the swarm of bloodsucking civil servants from army to police and other government workers

3. Too many services are still not privatized.

Given the three mentioned reasons, there is more than enough financial space to carry out large infrastructural projects. By the way, Greece went downhill after the Olympics, wasn't it the Abhisit government who wanted to have huge things like the olympics and the world exhibition. After all there are always Chinese Thai ministers visiting CHina and think they should do the same.

Thanks for this good bit of writing, and I agree with most of what you're saying. However, Thailand in the next five to ten years must not repeat the mistakes that have already been made by Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland and (pretty worryingly) Italy. People go on about Thailand being badly run, and how it is a "banana republic", it looks like that some of the countries in Europe are closer to being 'a failed state' than Thailand is !!

As for them Chinese-Thai ministers visiting China, yes, they seem to think Thailand is similar to China, that's because they are Chinese-Thais !!!

[exbelg]

the problem with Greece is that they lied before entering the EURO zone and most supposed experts new about it but hey, if the wheel is greased correctly for some high position people that does not give a crap ...

tax collection is almost inexcistent... people or business owners declare ridicule low income on paper and is accepted because most is handled in black money

Greece is a joke and it will take the whole EU in its fall

[sbk]

Flame deleted, keep it civil

[puipuitom]

What a muted uninformed article. Europe's problems are as a result of governments trying to rob their own people and use the money they earn from their criminal tax codes to convince other nations to lend them even more ill gotten gains, that they can squander on ill advised socialist programmes (another definition of corruption). As I understand it Thailand's over all tax burden per capita is something like 17% versus theft (oop's sorry Tax) levels in excess of 50% or even 60% by many western governments.

Thailand has a long way to go before they can be seen as a Robin Hood state, that steals from the rich (or not so rich middle classes, in fact normal people) and gives to non nationals who have sussed out theres a free lunch going. They adopt very few socialist policies and the society at large has a much better grasp of what it means to be a capitalist than westerners do, which is why as expats its tough for us to make a good business out here, and rightly so!

It is obvious, you do not have the slightest economic knowledge at all.

The "high" level: of tax compared with countries like Thailand can be explaned very easy: just drive through Bangkok or the up country roads and you feel, see and hear the difference.

Visit a school, hospital, police of law station, compare the differences of public transport, see how elderly people, disabled, etc are taken care for and another big part is explaned.

That's why so many farangs wanttolive in counties like Thailand, and when in medical difficult years, return back to their country of origin, to " keep their hands up" that IS THE REAL THEFT: NO SAVINGS, BUT STIL PROFIT.

[puipuitom]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt.

Sorry, but every Western High School student would already explain you, you cannot compare debt with debt only.

The already done governmental investments, even in Greece, in infrastructure ( roads, railways, ports, electricity and other networds, protection against environment like dikes agsainst floods), situation of the inhabitants ( education, health, protection), economic competiveness, and many other in the past make a such big difference, that even when Thailand would invest a 10-year income of all inhabitants (GNP), would not be able to coope with Greece ( do not even dream to get levels as in the Western EU like France, Italy, Germany etc )

Yes, in Greece ( 3.5 % of total EU economy) a lot went wrong, so now the politiciens over all EU have to face a much thorough and tougher controll by the public.

Remind also: in the EU votes cannot be bought. Even, you must be crazy, stuped and nuts , financially seen, to run for a governmental job seen a -compared with business- low salary as public servant, mayor, minister or president. And for mal-information: ask Mr Ruppert Murdock !~!

[Tanaka]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt. The problem with the Nation is that it employs people who have troubles calculating and the newspaper is driven by hate for the Thaksin people because the NCC put the owners under investigation for corruption and being unusually wealthy.

There are a few comparisons that are valid though:

1. The THai elites are not paying their taxes and this is not only the case in the Thaksin AIS sale but for every businessman

2. The public sector is bloated and the poor and middle class need to pay for the swarm of bloodsucking civil servants from army to police and other government workers

3. Too many services are still not privatized.

Given the three mentioned reasons, there is more than enough financial space to carry out large infrastructural projects. By the way, Greece went downhill after the Olympics, wasn't it the Abhisit government who wanted to have huge things like the olympics and the world exhibition. After all there are always Chinese Thai ministers visiting CHina and think they should do the same.

The Greek debt is not 100% higher than the Thai debt. Not only people with the Nation have troubles calculating. The Greek debt is 276% higher than that of Thailand in comparative numbers. Today.

[rufanuf]

What a muted uninformed article. Europe's problems are as a result of governments trying to rob their own people and use the money they earn from their criminal tax codes to convince other nations to lend them even more ill gotten gains, that they can squander on ill advised socialist programmes (another definition of corruption). As I understand it Thailand's over all tax burden per capita is something like 17% versus theft (oop's sorry Tax) levels in excess of 50% or even 60% by many western governments.

Thailand has a long way to go before they can be seen as a Robin Hood state, that steals from the rich (or not so rich middle classes, in fact normal people) and gives to non nationals who have sussed out theres a free lunch going. They adopt very few socialist policies and the society at large has a much better grasp of what it means to be a capitalist than westerners do, which is why as expats its tough for us to make a good business out here, and rightly so!

It's pretty obvious that you are quite ill informed and attempt to sell an opinion as fact, which isn't true at all!

Thailand does have a progressive tax rate and many, many people who make "money from nothing and have the chicks for free!"

Just one reminder: sweatshops and "massage" parlours as well as "karaoke" bars en masse around and in this scene is massive exploitation going on, a complete corruptable bureaucracy, so much of the country is controllable by money and so called "influential people".

If the incoming government get's it's giant projects on the way, which are nothing but money spinners for the government's minions, Thailand will go the same way as greece, cause the same kind of corruption is robbing the state's enterprises blind!

Remember the tax evasion court case against the former PM about how many billions was it?

wake up!

What your describing wont happen, becuase the Thai's themselves wont tolerate it, thats the point....you wake up!

[rufanuf]

What a muted uninformed article. Europe's problems are as a result of governments trying to rob their own people and use the money they earn from their criminal tax codes to convince other nations to lend them even more ill gotten gains, that they can squander on ill advised socialist programmes (another definition of corruption). As I understand it Thailand's over all tax burden per capita is something like 17% versus theft (oop's sorry Tax) levels in excess of 50% or even 60% by many western governments.

Thailand has a long way to go before they can be seen as a Robin Hood state, that steals from the rich (or not so rich middle classes, in fact normal people) and gives to non nationals who have sussed out theres a free lunch going. They adopt very few socialist policies and the society at large has a much better grasp of what it means to be a capitalist than westerners do, which is why as expats its tough for us to make a good business out here, and rightly so!

It is obvious, you do not have the slightest economic knowledge at all.

The "high" level: of tax compared with countries like Thailand can be explaned very easy: just drive through Bangkok or the up country roads and you feel, see and hear the difference.

Visit a school, hospital, police of law station, compare the differences of public transport, see how elderly people, disabled, etc are taken care for and another big part is explaned.

That's why so many farangs wanttolive in counties like Thailand, and when in medical difficult years, return back to their country of origin, to " keep their hands up" that IS THE REAL THEFT: NO SAVINGS, BUT STIL PROFIT.

Cripes, we really have some socialists around who don't understand the most basic concepts of economics don't we?

LISTEN...if the people of a nation swallow the socialist propaganda of the merits of a "welfare state" shoved down their throats by successive "democratically elected" parliaments, it takes around 40 to 60 year of terms of such a government to bankrupt a nation.

DO YOUR HISTORY! You can have the wonderful illusion of government taking care of the people, provided your willing to pay the ultimate price for that delusion, which is for you to find the system has been corrupted by human nature and all the money paid in appears to have made little difference for the masses (because most of it ends up getting syphoned off by corrupt public servants, living to their true human(capitalist) natures and your benefits are zero, nada, zilch when the time comes for you to call on them. That's a reality that has been proven since the dawn of civilization. Do you not understand that inflation its self is a product of a corrupt economic system? Its a means by which government can steal a few percentage points a year of the money you make out of your pocket without you even noticing! That's why governments want to control the monetary system, to rob you!! Duh!

Open your eyes and look around you. How the vast majority of Thai's live is representative of a true capitalist society. Yes there's hardship for those with no education, and little money, but there's also very little standing in their way to make some kind of progress for themselves, and on every street corner you see a Thai person trying to do just that, they are a credit to themselves, as are the people working in massage parlours and karoake Bars that one poster seemed so observant of. Whats worse a women using her charms to get by in life or the single mother on welfare syndrome we have in the west?

Its not the Thai poor that are poor reflection of the reality of the worlds economic status, its the wests rich people that is the distortion! There's 6 billion people or so on the planet, a very small minority will enjoy vast wealth, (That's most westerners still comparitively peaking, but that's just a hangover from emperial plunder andd theft that's coming to an end). The rest of the world has to struggle and that's unlikely to change much just because a group of people called politicions, think its a good idea to steal money via tax for their own mates! A country with a low tax burden is a country of free people. A country with a high tax burden is a nation of slaves, regardless of how much they earn. When those who where born in the west wake up to this fact, they might start solving some of their problems.

Edited July 23, 2011 by rufanuf

[moe666]

There was a very interesting story about tax collection in Greece when this debt crisis broke. Doctors where claiming less than 15,000 euro income a year while paying that much in office rental a month. People didn't declare their swimming pools, the government did a over flight of residential areas and 95 percent of the homes declared without pools had pools.

Similar to Thailand a big cheating problem.

[Bagwan]

One of the trillions of things that I do not understand is that since the US and the UK have huge debts, as have many (most?) other countries it seems, to whom is all this folding stuff owed? Just who is bankrolling Planet Earth? Rather than accepting most politicians' mantra that 'there will be jam tomorrow', is it not the case that for most, the future will be the descent into penury?

[chaoyang]

<snip>

As for them Chinese-Thai ministers visiting China, yes, they seem to think Thailand is similar to China, that's because they are Chinese-Thais !!!

What is going on in China is that provincial and city governments are displacing local people from the land, then offering that up for industrial parks, etc., in a never-ending spiral of trying to get foreign investment. The big motivation? Massive amounts of money changing hands and kickbacks on huge projects -- in a word, corruption.

Costs in China are fast outpacing many other countries, so the golden days of that scheme have already passed.

Thailand could borrow parts of the model, which makes sense if it is kept reasonably clean -- both from corruption and for the environment. Land that is legitimately owned could be used to build bases for outsourced manufacturing. With China now somewhat uncompetitive on the extreme low-cost segment, it could offer a chance for Thailand to pick up some of the projects (and only some -- many are not desirable).

[whatsupdoc]

What a muted uninformed article. Europe's problems are as a result of governments trying to rob their own people and use the money they earn from their criminal tax codes to convince other nations to lend them even more ill gotten gains, that they can squander on ill advised socialist programmes (another definition of corruption). As I understand it Thailand's over all tax burden per capita is something like 17% versus theft (oop's sorry Tax) levels in excess of 50% or even 60% by many western governments.

Thailand has a long way to go before they can be seen as a Robin Hood state, that steals from the rich (or not so rich middle classes, in fact normal people) and gives to non nationals who have sussed out theres a free lunch going. They adopt very few socialist policies and the society at large has a much better grasp of what it means to be a capitalist than westerners do, which is why as expats its tough for us to make a good business out here, and rightly so!

It is obvious, you do not have the slightest economic knowledge at all.

The "high" level: of tax compared with countries like Thailand can be explaned very easy: just drive through Bangkok or the up country roads and you feel, see and hear the difference.

Visit a school, hospital, police of law station, compare the differences of public transport, see how elderly people, disabled, etc are taken care for and another big part is explaned.

That's why so many farangs wanttolive in counties like Thailand, and when in medical difficult years, return back to their country of origin, to " keep their hands up" that IS THE REAL THEFT: NO SAVINGS, BUT STIL PROFIT.

Cripes, we really have some socialists around who don't understand the most basic concepts of economics don't we?

LISTEN...if the people of a nation swallow the socialist propaganda of the merits of a "welfare state" shoved down their throats by successive "democratically elected" parliaments, it takes around 40 to 60 year of terms of such a government to bankrupt a nation.

DO YOUR HISTORY! You can have the wonderful illusion of government taking care of the people, provided your willing to pay the ultimate price for that delusion, which is for you to find the system has been corrupted by human nature and all the money paid in appears to have made little difference for the masses (because most of it ends up getting syphoned off by corrupt public servants, living to their true human(capitalist) natures and your benefits are zero, nada, zilch when the time comes for you to call on them. That's a reality that has been proven since the dawn of civilization. Do you not understand that inflation its self is a product of a corrupt economic system? Its a means by which government can steal a few percentage points a year of the money you make out of your pocket without you even noticing! That's why governments want to control the monetary system, to rob you!! Duh!

Open your eyes and look around you. How the vast majority of Thai's live is representative of a true capitalist society. Yes there's hardship for those with no education, and little money, but there's also very little standing in their way to make some kind of progress for themselves, and on every street corner you see a Thai person trying to do just that, they are a credit to themselves, as are the people working in massage parlours and karoake Bars that one poster seemed so observant of. Whats worse a women using her charms to get by in life or the single mother on welfare syndrome we have in the west?

Its not the Thai poor that are poor reflection of the reality of the worlds economic status, its the wests rich people that is the distortion! There's 6 billion people or so on the planet, a very small minority will enjoy vast wealth, (That's most westerners still comparitively peaking, but that's just a hangover from emperial plunder andd theft that's coming to an end). The rest of the world has to struggle and that's unlikely to change much just because a group of people called politicions, think its a good idea to steal money via tax for their own mates! A country with a low tax burden is a country of free people. A country with a high tax burden is a nation of slaves, regardless of how much they earn. When those who where born in the west wake up to this fact, they might start solving some of their problems.

So it is better to live in let's say Somalia than in Scandinavia? What a load of crap......

[EnhancePlus]

One of the trillions of things that I do not understand is that since the US and the UK have huge debts, as have many (most?) other countries it seems, to whom is all this folding stuff owed? Just who is bankrolling Planet Earth? Rather than accepting most politicians' mantra that 'there will be jam tomorrow', is it not the case that for most, the future will be the descent into penury?

The criminal BANKS, that's who! They're going to steal it all. Wait to ASEAN kicks in and the real trouble will start. The EC is a fine example of this.

[xminator]

And they should start by cutting back army spending to pre-coup levels.

[rufanuf]

So it is better to live in let's say Somalia than in Scandinavia? What a load of crap......

Where do you get your ideas from? Obviously not planet Earth!

Edited July 23, 2011 by rufanuf

[rufanuf]

Perhaps before comparing Greece with Thailand, everybody needs to understand exactly what is going on in Greece. If most Europeans were aware of how the Greeks are robbing everybody blind of their hard earned taxes then there would be so much public pressure on politicians that Greece would be left to sink. No wonder the Greeks are protesting, they have never had it so good. This is a country where cleaners on trains can retire on 80 000 Euros a year pensions!!!

Here is an interesting article that captures many of the issues. Is Thailand the same as Greece, ..I will let you conclude, but I don't think so. Is Thailand heading for financial disaster if it follows through on the extraordinary promises made by Yingluck ... yes!

Absolutely agree Jim, the government is top heavy like ALL western countries and unfortunately they wont wake up until its too late and end up with a standard of living much below Thailand's (if in real terms its not already)...The west has completely maxed out its credit card, despite the fact that the democratic electorate never even voted for them to apply for one? I mean can anyone who ever voted FOR ANY government remember them publishing in their manifestos "we will borrow billions from Japan and/or elsewhere?" No thought not because they wouldn't get the vote...BIG GOVERNMENT AND THE WELFARE STATE is just a form of grand theft perpetuated on the working man by the political classes. Somewhere between no government and one public servant for every 50 workers in the private sector is far better than a public sector that is an outgrown fat pig feeding off the efforts of hardworking normal people. SOCIALISM DOES NOT WORK

Edited July 23, 2011 by rufanuf

[metisdead]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered “fair use” and not a violation of copyright.

[GentlemanJim]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered "fair use" and not a violation of copyright.

Whilst I understand your comments, the post concerned was in fact perfectly legitimate providing acknowledgement was given to the author Mr Andrew Malone (which was duly given), which is all he has requested. A professional journalist, he wrote the article and has encouraged everyone to send it viral around the net (which has occurred) in a bid to raise awareness of the self inflicted, self perpetuating 'Greek tragedy', which we will all pay for.

[sirchai]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt. The problem with the Nation is that it employs people who have troubles calculating and the newspaper is driven by hate for the Thaksin people because the NCC put the owners under investigation for corruption and being unusually wealthy.

There are a few comparisons that are valid though:

1. The THai elites are not paying their taxes and this is not only the case in the Thaksin AIS sale but for every businessman

2. The public sector is bloated and the poor and middle class need to pay for the swarm of bloodsucking civil servants from army to police and other government workers

3. Too many services are still not privatized.

Given the three mentioned reasons, there is more than enough financial space to carry out large infrastructural projects. By the way, Greece went downhill after the Olympics, wasn't it the Abhisit government who wanted to have huge things like the olympics and the world exhibition. After all there are always Chinese Thai ministers visiting CHina and think they should do the same.

It’s a sleepy town in Greece, the streets are empty and it’s raining cats and dogs.

A German tourist with his Porsche stops at a hotel and goes inside. He wants to take a look at the rooms, so the hotel owner gives him some keys. The German leaves a 100 Euro bill and makes his way to look at some rooms; the clerk takes the bill and runs out of his hotel.

1. He runs to the butcher and pays 100 Euro for the stuff he had on credit.

2. The butcher runs to a pub, pays the owner 100 Euro for his drinks he had there.

3. The pub owner gives the 100 Euro to a prostitute, who did some good service for the guy on credit.

4. The prostitute is running to the hotel to pay for the rooms she had used in short time romances.

The German tourist comes down from the hotel rooms not satisfied with the quality of the rooms, telling the clerk that he doesn’t want to stay here, says thank you, takes his 100 Euro bill and takes off.

Nobody had anything produced.

Nobody did anything to make the sleepy town to a better one.

But everybody could pay back his money and people in this sleepy town now are looking into a better future.

[sirchai]

How funny. The THai debt to GDO ratio has increased under the military and under the DP from 25 to 42%.The military budget has more than doubled and the pace of tax collection has fallen relatively to GDP.

In case of Greece, there is a debt to GDP ration of 158% and that might fall to 142% in a few years. Greek debt is therefore 100% higher than Thai debt. The problem with the Nation is that it employs people who have troubles calculating and the newspaper is driven by hate for the Thaksin people because the NCC put the owners under investigation for corruption and being unusually wealthy.

There are a few comparisons that are valid though:

1. The THai elites are not paying their taxes and this is not only the case in the Thaksin AIS sale but for every businessman

2. The public sector is bloated and the poor and middle class need to pay for the swarm of bloodsucking civil servants from army to police and other government workers

3. Too many services are still not privatized.

Given the three mentioned reasons, there is more than enough financial space to carry out large infrastructural projects. By the way, Greece went downhill after the Olympics, wasn't it the Abhisit government who wanted to have huge things like the olympics and the world exhibition. After all there are always Chinese Thai ministers visiting CHina and think they should do the same.

Indeed. Having lived and worked there for a few years about 9 years ago, the tax implications of employing someone were absolutely horrendous, government employees retired at 58 on 80% salary, private business owners payed virtually no tax it was patently obvious that there was NO WAY that the financial model that Greece possessed was ever going to be sustainable. There are a few societal parallels with Thailand but financially, Thailand is completely different to Greece, and this type of article is pure scare mongering

I guess you forgot to mention that they produce Ouzo………………………..

[Bagwan]

One of the trillions of things that I do not understand is that since the US and the UK have huge debts, as have many (most?) other countries it seems, to whom is all this folding stuff owed? Just who is bankrolling Planet Earth? Rather than accepting most politicians' mantra that 'there will be jam tomorrow', is it not the case that for most, the future will be the descent into penury?

The criminal BANKS, that's who! They're going to steal it all. Wait to ASEAN kicks in and the real trouble will start. The EC is a fine example of this.

Erm. Which banks are the criminal ones? If the banks have all the money, why are they being bailed out by Governments?

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. They are so skint that the gifts are probably stolen goods.

[wolf5370]

Someone I know works for one of the bailed out banks - he just bought a new BMW with his bonus this year (UK)!

I listened to Radio 4's (BBC) Any Questions on IPlayer today and there were some questions regarding the second Greek massive bail-out. One politician made an interesting point - she said something along the lines of, "I do not want to be bailing out Greece again while they are supporting a 400,000 man Army there at the same time that we [uK] are having to make cuts in our own servicemen"...not an exact quote, but along those lines. This is the point, Greece is still spending on corrupt poitician's projects and an over inflated civil service. Another good point was the direction this leads the EU to take - there are two routes: 1- Expell the Nations that are drains and let them sink alone (getting back to business), or 2- Taking control of the country's decision making, tax and budgets and steering it to safer shores (along with those other countries in similar positions). It was suggested that the second is most likely, but either would be a sounding of the death knell for the EU really. There is no way Britain would allow a centralised federal "power" that controlled taxes and directed member states (they could not stop it - but they would not be part of it) - and neither would many other countries. The single currency was all about Mitterrand's deal with Germany (over fears to do with German unification) - and never really desireable by anyone not French (now or then!) other than those too weak to support their own currencies.

There is a fear that too many promises, too much corruption, too many super-projects, could lead Thailand into similar problems - especialy (perhaps) if the there are big problems in little China (in which basket, eggs are continually stacked). The fear is probably unfounded insofar that it is unlikely that any of the super-project amount to anything like the promise in reality (at least this centuary), and that Thailand will get away with just a little blood loss (and the leaches a bit fatter on that blood!).

Just my thoughts.