Taliban hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan

[WarpSpeed]

It now sounds like not only you defending talibs but also supporting them

I sincerely hope I misunderstood

Dead kids because they're following the fathers suppressive and vile dictatorship direction.. This child was executed because he has a father who was trying to do the right thing and move Afghanistan into a civilized direction for his family and others who would benefit... Your perspective is sickening..

Talibans too are convinced that they are doing the right thing.

Not supporting nor defending them.

They are cleary sadistic barbarians.

But they are thinking they are doing the right thing, for reclaiming Afghanistan for Allah and spreading their sick faith to the whole world. Killing children is endorsed by the prophet...

Just as many westerners believe they have the mission to spread democracy and its values to those countries. Children die too in the process, but at least it is by mistake and for the greater good.

You also mistakenly equate democracy with morality and compassion.. This is just WRONG....

and without snapping back to your original political statements which was what my post responded to, you wrongly equated these "sadistic barbarians" with the righteous souls who are giving their lives to make positive changes for these people and there is no comparison to be had as WE ARE doing the right thing there, you can't have it both ways... It's either right to intervene with such "sadistic barbarians" and attempt things like education, morality and compassion as the end result or alternatively stand by and let these sadistic instances become common place occurrence's and do nothing, it's time to show some guts, get off the fence and stop waffling..

Edited July 25, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

BUT they are not doing the right thing, cold bloodily stringing up kids , lot of difference when kids are killed in a campaign and putting a noose round a kids neck and probably cheering the outcome.

You won't say that when you die and your sould ends up for judgement in front of Allah, Muhammad and his henchmen...

Meant tongue in cheek of course - but if you reject their faith/belief, you have to reject Christianism too. I do. I also don't think democracy is the right form of government everywhere - not yet.

I've no religion to be polluted by which is WHY you need to see the larger picture, it's about MORALITY and righteousness not religion just because some happen to be Christian or the country's involved predominately Christian doesn't make it a religious conflict unless of course you equate MORALITY and compassion with only Christian values that is.....

It's always conveniently forgotten in these discussions that Muslims attacked and declared war on these countries, their citizens and their lifestyle not the other way around..

I'm curious? You mention democracy not being the "right form of government everywhere - not yet" so when would that time be then? If not now, when? In essence the timing would never be right, especially if Muslims have their way as it is completely contrary to everything they believe and moreover their goal is world wide Sharia law the antithesis of democracy...

Edited July 25, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[manarak]

BUT they are not doing the right thing, cold bloodily stringing up kids , lot of difference when kids are killed in a campaign and putting a noose round a kids neck and probably cheering the outcome.

You won't say that when you die and your sould ends up for judgement in front of Allah, Muhammad and his henchmen...

Meant tongue in cheek of course - but if you reject their faith/belief, you have to reject Christianism too. I do. I also don't think democracy is the right form of government everywhere - not yet.

I've no religion to be polluted by which is WHY you need to see the larger picture, it's about MORALITY and righteousness not religion just because some happen to be Christian or the country's involved predominately Christian doesn't make it a religious conflict unless of course you equate MORALITY and compassion with only Christian values that is.....

It's always conveniently forgotten in these discussions that Muslims attacked and declared war on these countries, their citizens and their lifestyle not the other way around..

I'm curious? You mention democracy not being the "right form of government everywhere - not yet" so when would that time be then? If not now, when? In essence the timing would never be right, especially if Muslims have their way as it is completely contrary to everything they believe and moreover their goal is world wide Sharia law the antithesis of democracy...

Interesting post.

First, let me say that western morality is widely derived from Christianism.

In a moral system derived from Islam, it is moral for women to cover themselves (although Islam itself does not require it) and to kill (they like to burn them) daughters or sisters who brought "shame on the family". This is morality too.

Second, I think a country is ready for democracy when it's citizens are ready to stand up for their freedom, not for installing an anti-democratic rule (Islam) or to replace one dictator by another.

Islamic countries need their Voltaires to call for liberty, but for that, the neck of fundamentalist Islam has to be broken first.

Western democracies were born without much resistance from the Church(es) - Church(es) were already weakened by the Thrones and educated, wealthy people when democracy arrived.

The same canot be said in Islamic countries now.

Before democracy can come, people must be educated and religion weakened.

Edited July 26, 2011 by manarak

[WarpSpeed]

BUT they are not doing the right thing, cold bloodily stringing up kids , lot of difference when kids are killed in a campaign and putting a noose round a kids neck and probably cheering the outcome.

You won't say that when you die and your sould ends up for judgement in front of Allah, Muhammad and his henchmen...

Meant tongue in cheek of course - but if you reject their faith/belief, you have to reject Christianism too. I do. I also don't think democracy is the right form of government everywhere - not yet.

I've no religion to be polluted by which is WHY you need to see the larger picture, it's about MORALITY and righteousness not religion just because some happen to be Christian or the country's involved predominately Christian doesn't make it a religious conflict unless of course you equate MORALITY and compassion with only Christian values that is.....

It's always conveniently forgotten in these discussions that Muslims attacked and declared war on these countries, their citizens and their lifestyle not the other way around..

I'm curious? You mention democracy not being the "right form of government everywhere - not yet" so when would that time be then? If not now, when? In essence the timing would never be right, especially if Muslims have their way as it is completely contrary to everything they believe and moreover their goal is world wide Sharia law the antithesis of democracy...

Interesting post.

First, let me say that western morality is widely derived from Christianism.

In a moral system derived from Islam, it is moral for women to cover themselves (although Islam itself does not require it) and to kill (they like to burn them) daughters or sisters who brought "shame on the family". This is morality too.

Second, I think a country is ready for democracy when it's citizens are ready to stand up for their freedom, not for installing an anti-democratic rule (Islam) or to replace one dictator by another.

Islamic countries need their Voltaires to call for liberty, but for that, the neck of fundamentalist Islam has to be broken first.

Western democracies were born without much resistance from the Church(es) - Church(es) were already weakened by the Thrones and educated, wealthy people when democracy arrived.

The same canot be said in Islamic countries now.

Before democracy can come, people must be educated and religion weakened.

So my follow up would be do you think that Muslim "morality" then is the "morality" you want your children to learn and the world to follow as rule of law? Regardless of whether or not that morality is Christian based or not should be irrelevant, a thinking person with conscience and education should be able to differentiate between which is actually moral and conscionable behavior and which is say just psychotic, "barbaric sadism" shouldn't they?? Behavior such as hanging a perfectly innocent 8 year old just because his father has morality and conscience and wants a better, more civilized future for his now deceased child and the people of his community and country..

We're in agreement on democracy then even though you don't realize it you are echoing my previous points. Based on your time table for democracy then the time is the present as the majority are supportive of the changes not against.. Name me even 1 society in history that has been able to make those changes and rise up against tyranny and suppression of a more powerful and intimidating presence, be it a government or similar thugs without an outside influence and strength to support them. Not even the now world power of the U.S. was able to do it alone in spite of a valiant effort..

Edited July 26, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[Colin Yai]

What an awful situation to put the father in.

There is some speculation that the human race is going to become extinct, going the way of the dinosaurs and many other species.

My feeling is that it can't come quick enough.

Don't blame it on the human race cos these people are not fit to be called humans.

[Samuian]

A murder of an innocent eight year old child. Words cannot describe what my feelings toward those low life animals. R.I.P youngster.

Well, it's a very different world out there... very different and tough to the bone!

But believe me, if the "police force" lead by the father of this boy get's hands on one of his killers....

[WarpSpeed]

A murder of an innocent eight year old child. Words cannot describe what my feelings toward those low life animals. R.I.P youngster.

Well, it's a very different world out there... very different and tough to the bone!

But believe me, if the "police force" lead by the father of this boy get's hands on one of his killers....

If there's an "Allah" they will...

[Samuian]

A murder of an innocent eight year old child. Words cannot describe what my feelings toward those low life animals. R.I.P youngster.

Well, it's a very different world out there... very different and tough to the bone!

But believe me, if the "police force" lead by the father of this boy get's hands on one of his killers....

If there's an "Allah" they will...

More likely to be an Ali, Abduk, Aazif, Ahmad-Shah, Achmed or Ajmal... Helmand Province is closest to the ^%#@7*xyz^ of the world if not of the universe!

[WarpSpeed]

A murder of an innocent eight year old child. Words cannot describe what my feelings toward those low life animals. R.I.P youngster.

Well, it's a very different world out there... very different and tough to the bone!

But believe me, if the "police force" lead by the father of this boy get's hands on one of his killers....

If there's an "Allah" they will...

More likely to be an Ali, Abduk, Aazif, Ahmad-Shah, Achmed or Ajmal... Helmand Province is closest to the ^%#@7*xyz^ of the world if not of the universe!

Ummmmm "Allah" means 'God' in islam so I'm using the phrase "if there's a 'God' they will" meaning they'll handle the scummy cowards who'd do such a thing if there's a "God"?..

[Steely Dan]

So my follow up would be do you think that Muslim "morality" then is the "morality" you want your children to learn and the world to follow as rule of law? Regardless of whether or not that morality is Christian based or not should be irrelevant, a thinking person with conscience and education should be able to differentiate between which is actually moral and conscionable behavior and which is say just psychotic, "barbaric sadism" shouldn't they?? Behavior such as hanging a perfectly innocent 8 year old just because his father has morality and conscience and wants a better, more civilized future for his now deceased child and the people of his community and country..

We're in agreement on democracy then even though you don't realize it you are echoing my previous points. Based on your time table for democracy then the time is the present as the majority are supportive of the changes not against.. Name me even 1 society in history that has been able to make those changes and rise up against tyranny and suppression of a more powerful and intimidating presence, be it a government or similar thugs without an outside influence and strength to support them. Not even the now world power of the U.S. was able to do it alone in spite of a valiant effort..

I think 'morality' is human and is universal, it does not belong to any religion, atheists can be perfectly moral without any magical belief system. Let's not beat around the bush here, the Universal declaration of human rights is one manifestation of a consensus morality, one which many Islamic states have refused to recognize as they take issue with freedom of conscience, woman's rights as well as those of children not to be damaged by hate indoctrination.

Western civilization is superior in every way to that of these savages and they should be disposed of with great zeal and determination, only then could people in places like Afghanistan be free to develop.

[manarak]

Interesting post.

First, let me say that western morality is widely derived from Christianism.

In a moral system derived from Islam, it is moral for women to cover themselves (although Islam itself does not require it) and to kill (they like to burn them) daughters or sisters who brought "shame on the family". This is morality too.

Second, I think a country is ready for democracy when it's citizens are ready to stand up for their freedom, not for installing an anti-democratic rule (Islam) or to replace one dictator by another.

Islamic countries need their Voltaires to call for liberty, but for that, the neck of fundamentalist Islam has to be broken first.

Western democracies were born without much resistance from the Church(es) - Church(es) were already weakened by the Thrones and educated, wealthy people when democracy arrived.

The same canot be said in Islamic countries now.

Before democracy can come, people must be educated and religion weakened.

So my follow up would be do you think that Muslim "morality" then is the "morality" you want your children to learn and the world to follow as rule of law? Regardless of whether or not that morality is Christian based or not should be irrelevant, a thinking person with conscience and education should be able to differentiate between which is actually moral and conscionable behavior and which is say just psychotic, "barbaric sadism" shouldn't they?? Behavior such as hanging a perfectly innocent 8 year old just because his father has morality and conscience and wants a better, more civilized future for his now deceased child and the people of his community and country..

We're in agreement on democracy then even though you don't realize it you are echoing my previous points. Based on your time table for democracy then the time is the present as the majority are supportive of the changes not against.. Name me even 1 society in history that has been able to make those changes and rise up against tyranny and suppression of a more powerful and intimidating presence, be it a government or similar thugs without an outside influence and strength to support them. Not even the now world power of the U.S. was able to do it alone in spite of a valiant effort..

The problem with morality is that it is defined by the standards adopted by a community. You are moral if you behave as your moral peers expect you to behave.

I.e. if your daughter has brought shame upon the family, burn her, because that's what other moral persons in your community would do.

Check it on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

The way you post about morality, I rather think you mean "normative ethics".

The problem with morality is that it often goes beyond defining what's good and what's bad.

It often prescribes much more, like "no sex before marriage" or "homosexuality is a disease"... or burn your naughty daughters and sisters.

In this perspective, Christian morals are no more justifiable than Islam morals, we just have evolved and are no longer burning witches, but we aren't quite there yet.

I think you should shake off the term "morals" and replace it by "ethics" or better "normative ethics".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_ethics

And to answer your question about successful uprisings without outside help:

- France

- Cuba

- Russia

- Poland

- East Germany

and many more, among which Iran !

[manarak]

So my follow up would be do you think that Muslim "morality" then is the "morality" you want your children to learn and the world to follow as rule of law? Regardless of whether or not that morality is Christian based or not should be irrelevant, a thinking person with conscience and education should be able to differentiate between which is actually moral and conscionable behavior and which is say just psychotic, "barbaric sadism" shouldn't they?? Behavior such as hanging a perfectly innocent 8 year old just because his father has morality and conscience and wants a better, more civilized future for his now deceased child and the people of his community and country..

We're in agreement on democracy then even though you don't realize it you are echoing my previous points. Based on your time table for democracy then the time is the present as the majority are supportive of the changes not against.. Name me even 1 society in history that has been able to make those changes and rise up against tyranny and suppression of a more powerful and intimidating presence, be it a government or similar thugs without an outside influence and strength to support them. Not even the now world power of the U.S. was able to do it alone in spite of a valiant effort..

I think 'morality' is human and is universal, it does not belong to any religion, atheists can be perfectly moral without any magical belief system. Let's not beat around the bush here, the Universal declaration of human rights is one manifestation of a consensus morality, one which many Islamic states have refused to recognize as they take issue with freedom of conscience, woman's rights as well as those of children not to be damaged by hate indoctrination.

Western civilization is superior in every way to that of these savages and they should be disposed of with great zeal and determination, only then could people in places like Afghanistan be free to develop.

Morals are relative and community-dependent.

And let's be clear and honest: westerners think western morals are superior to the others, so we will wage war to impose our morals to the rest of the world.

Because we think that is Right, and they are Wrong.

you write:

the Universal declaration of human rights is one manifestation of a consensus morality, one which many Islamic states have refused to recognize

How can you call something a "consensus" if it is refused by one third of the world's population?

Western civilization is superior in every way to that of these savages and they should be disposed of with great zeal and determination, only then could people in places like Afghanistan be free to develop.

I agree wholeheartedly. Just let's call a spade a spade. Let's eradicate those whose way of life is contradictory to our values and political system.

Because that's what we are doing, no matter how righteous we feel about it.

Edited July 26, 2011 by manarak

[WarpSpeed]

Interesting post.

First, let me say that western morality is widely derived from Christianism.

In a moral system derived from Islam, it is moral for women to cover themselves (although Islam itself does not require it) and to kill (they like to burn them) daughters or sisters who brought "shame on the family". This is morality too.

Second, I think a country is ready for democracy when it's citizens are ready to stand up for their freedom, not for installing an anti-democratic rule (Islam) or to replace one dictator by another.

Islamic countries need their Voltaires to call for liberty, but for that, the neck of fundamentalist Islam has to be broken first.

Western democracies were born without much resistance from the Church(es) - Church(es) were already weakened by the Thrones and educated, wealthy people when democracy arrived.

The same canot be said in Islamic countries now.

Before democracy can come, people must be educated and religion weakened.

So my follow up would be do you think that Muslim "morality" then is the "morality" you want your children to learn and the world to follow as rule of law? Regardless of whether or not that morality is Christian based or not should be irrelevant, a thinking person with conscience and education should be able to differentiate between which is actually moral and conscionable behavior and which is say just psychotic, "barbaric sadism" shouldn't they?? Behavior such as hanging a perfectly innocent 8 year old just because his father has morality and conscience and wants a better, more civilized future for his now deceased child and the people of his community and country..

We're in agreement on democracy then even though you don't realize it you are echoing my previous points. Based on your time table for democracy then the time is the present as the majority are supportive of the changes not against.. Name me even 1 society in history that has been able to make those changes and rise up against tyranny and suppression of a more powerful and intimidating presence, be it a government or similar thugs without an outside influence and strength to support them. Not even the now world power of the U.S. was able to do it alone in spite of a valiant effort..

The problem with morality is that it is defined by the standards adopted by a community. You are moral if you behave as your moral peers expect you to behave.

No it isn't, reference Steely Dans post above, it states it succinctly..

I'm confused now your waffling all over the place and avoiding my questions. Bottom line, in your mind, is this a moral thing for them to have hung this innocent 8 year old or not? Are you condoning it or condemning it? If you're not condoning it then what is the discussion about?

If you are condoning it then we have nothing further to discuss..

Edited July 26, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[Scott]

I suggest posters exercise care in what they say. You are welcome to your opinion; others are welcome to theirs, but please avoid fighting and flaming.

[manarak]

The problem with morality is that it is defined by the standards adopted by a community. You are moral if you behave as your moral peers expect you to behave.

No it isn't, reference Steely Dans post above, it states it succinctly..

I'm confused now your waffling all over the place and avoiding my questions. Bottom line, in your mind, is this a moral thing for them to have hung this innocent 8 year old or not? Are you condoning it or condemning it? If you're not condoning it then what is the discussion about?

If you are condoning it then we have nothing further to discuss..

Sorry if I privilege philosophy and the definitions given in Wikipedia over Steely Dan's and your views of what the words "morals" and "morality" mean.

Morals are community-dependent.

A moral person is a person that acts in the way prescribed by the moral principles of its community, and is convinced of doing "the right thing".

When you ask if the Talibans acted in a moral way, you ask in fact if the Talibans acted in a civilized, ethical, respectful, law-abiding, secular way as it is understood in the western world. Well, no, they didn't act in a way us westerners would consider acceptable.

I can't answer your question if the Talibans acted in a moral way. I would have to know what the reactions within their community were after the hanging. If their community cheered (I doubt that though), then they were acting in a moral way.

Personally I condemn the hanging, and am in favor of taking out the Talibans, I hate the lot.

My point is that it is not individuals that need to be taken out, it is a whole moral, religious and political system - not just in Afghanistan.

BUT: there is a big big big enormous problem.

Muslims believe that the Quran (spelling?) has been written down word for word from what Allah has said to the Prophet and no errors have been made! Everything is 100% from allah, as it is written! ching ching.

Can you see a change coming? I can't.

Edited July 26, 2011 by manarak

[WarpSpeed]

The problem with morality is that it is defined by the standards adopted by a community. You are moral if you behave as your moral peers expect you to behave.

No it isn't, reference Steely Dans post above, it states it succinctly..

I'm confused now your waffling all over the place and avoiding my questions. Bottom line, in your mind, is this a moral thing for them to have hung this innocent 8 year old or not? Are you condoning it or condemning it? If you're not condoning it then what is the discussion about?

If you are condoning it then we have nothing further to discuss..

Personally I condemn the hanging, and am in favor of taking out the Talibans, I hate the lot.

My point is that it is not individuals that need to be taken out, it is a whole moral, religious and political system.

The rest of your quote is unnecessary to read then but your suggestion quoted above is what is trying to be accomplished and unfortunately some innocents may/will be caught in the cross fire in this painful and unsanitary process. The tree grows from the roots up not the other way around.

Edited July 26, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[Pakboong]

"Among the most humorous findings of my lifetime is the white man's notion that he is less savage than the savages"

Mark Twain

[Scott]

I think something to bear in mind is that the people perpetrating the hanging were militants. There are enough instances of military personnel committing atrocities to make an assumption that their behavior often falls either outside the norm (for any culture) or at the extreme far end of it.

[Steely Dan]

My point is that it is not individuals that need to be taken out, it is a whole moral, religious and political system - not just in Afghanistan.

BUT: there is a big big big enormous problem.

Muslims believe that the Quran (spelling?) has been written down word for word from what Allah has said to the Prophet and no errors have been made! Everything is 100% from allah, as it is written! ching ching.

Can you see a change coming? I can't.

Here I agree with you. Going after individuals is actually a side issue to kicking their whole stinking 7th century ideology into touch. The trouble is where are the modernizers and where are the moderates? I think they exist but evil men with a psychopathic blood lust cling to the literal word of the Quran as it justifies (in their minds) their savagery. The problem is the would be modernizers are cowed into silence out of fear, which is precisely the control mechanism used by dictators to control. The problem is not confined as you say to Afghanistan it's worldwide and I see no sign of change either.