Chiang Mai'S Expats

[Orita]

Originally from Europe, I have spent the last 30 years living in various countries, like America, Japan,

Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore.

My plan was, to spend retirement in Chiang Mai, but I am absolutely disappointed about the expat

community here. Never anywhere else have I encountered such a pathetic set of hostile, rude and

unapproachable miss-fits as here. While I find most Thais polite and friendly, expats seem to all hate

each other. In over 2 years of living here, I can't say I ever had even one inspiring and intelligent

conversation with any of my fellow expats.

In every other place I have lived so far, I always found a nice circle of friends after a short while, but

Chiang Mai is different. I can't explain the reason, but there must be something seriously wrong with

foreigners living here.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Orita

[Fishenough]

Sounds like your describing ThaiVisa, and not those that don't visit this forum.

:jap:

[worgeordie]

Been here 25 years and theres nowt wrong with me

kind regards Worgeordie

[Ulysses G.]

Sounds like your describing ThaiVisa, and not those that don't visit this forum.

:jap:

This is spot on. There are plenty of nice expats about who do not post on internet forums.

[Semper]

Orita,

Avoid the farangs and stick to the Thais. That's what I do.

[daoyai]

........... more of a reflection on you, with an attitude like that ......good luck.

[chaoyang]

I know what the OP means. I recall once saying to another newcomer "something has made the expats here meaner than snakes." For the many years after that until I left, I mostly spent my time with my wife.

I think its a strange brew that results in what you see: The daily stress of noise, pollution and people who can easily stab you in the back with a smile on their face; low cost of living that attracts low-cost people; widespread alcoholism; isolation; extreme heat; a society that is so corrupt it is basically a criminal state; being told that what you just saw isn't what you just saw -- it's just that you "don't understand the culture"; stress of trying to drive somewhere and taking you life in your hands -- each day could be the one when the truck does cream you from the side.

Ya, stuff like that makes people weird over the long haul.

[jdinasia]

I've certainly met quite a few decent people .... but it doesn't surprise me that some people can't adjust to Thailand. Some people just don't do well here, others do

(What amazes me are the ones that leave and still post here though )

[pete66]

I can't imagine people vary much round the globe. Perhaps you have changed?

Anyway, must be nice to fire your "parting shot" .....

As for "noise, pollution, low-cost people, criminal state, extreme heat, life in your hands driving" .... oh dear, this is Chiang Mai. Have you ever been to Bangkok? More extreme by a long way in almost all categories. Sounds like you should have never come to Thailand. Why did you come?

As for why people still post after leaving the country, its called "not being able to move on".

Edited August 1, 2011 by pete66

[mamborobert]

I know what the OP means. I recall once saying to another newcomer "something has made the expats here meaner than snakes." For the many years after that until I left, I mostly spent my time with my wife.

I think its a strange brew that results in what you see: The daily stress of noise, pollution and people who can easily stab you in the back with a smile on their face; low cost of living that attracts low-cost people; widespread alcoholism; isolation; extreme heat; a society that is so corrupt it is basically a criminal state; being told that what you just saw isn't what you just saw -- it's just that you "don't understand the culture"; stress of trying to drive somewhere and taking you life in your hands -- each day could be the one when the truck does cream you from the side.

Ya, stuff like that makes people weird over the long haul.

Not working for TAT any more then?

[Semper]

........... more of a reflection on you, with an attitude like that ......good luck.

An excellent example of the OP's complaint.

[daoyai]

........... more of a reflection on you, with an attitude like that ......good luck.

An excellent example of the OP's complaint.

Really? What I intended to express was that if the op had that attitude while in a social situation, I would not be inclined to engage them in the type of converstion they may desire, the op comes across as highly negative and overly critical.

[Fishenough]

Orita,

Avoid the farangs and stick to the Thais. That's what I do.

But only post to the farang forums.

I know what the OP means. I recall once saying to another newcomer "something has made the expats here meaner than snakes." For the many years after that until I left, I mostly spent my time with my wife.

I think its a strange brew that results in what you see: The daily stress of noise, pollution and people who can easily stab you in the back with a smile on their face; low cost of living that attracts low-cost people; widespread alcoholism; isolation; extreme heat; a society that is so corrupt it is basically a criminal state; being told that what you just saw isn't what you just saw -- it's just that you "don't understand the culture"; stress of trying to drive somewhere and taking you life in your hands -- each day could be the one when the truck does cream you from the side.

Ya, stuff like that makes people weird over the long haul.

Chaoyang, you are so wrong. The heat is just right.

[chaoyang]

<snip> Sounds like you should have never come to Thailand. Why did you come?

Mostly for the alcoholism.

But I must say that after a few years of slugging down large bottles of beer with sweat pouring down my face -- while listening to some girl jabber something about "sister brother me need motorcy" or how I shouldn't "think too much ... just same same but different" -- the experience, even drunk, began to wear thin.

I post here because I happen to know a lot about Thailand and retain an interest in the place. I do many other things as well. This is just one of them.

[mrclough]

Maybe the OP just met the wrong people! The description posted is a generalisation though and as that is the Op's way of describing the ex-pats in Chiang Mai it's hardly surprising some people take offence. I don't personally know the OP therefore I consider them not in a position to judge me so I cannot be offended.

Might be a better approach to treat everyone as an individual and judge people on meeting them rather than classing everyone as the same.

This of course may not have been intended when the post was written but sometimes things AND people can easily be misunderstood.

Maybe worth the OP considering this when posting this kind of thread.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Orita,

Sorry to hear you've not been able to meet your social and intellectual needs here, in this lovely city that we have experienced both as a single human being, and, thanks to a fortuitous singularity in a Bangkok subway under construction as our human life ebbed away, as a, mirabile dictu, resurrected human body containing both the formerly singular human's mind and soul, and the mind and soul of the dying Orangutan, Ur-Orang MDCMXLVII, whose physical body, sadly did not survive our transubstantiation.

In both forms we have found wonderful people, some of whom were farang, here who nourished us on every level except paying their fair share for meals in which we went-dutch, ranging from casual acquaintances with whom we could indulge in jawboning and slangwhanging, to life-long friends ... for this life.

We think Chiang Mai's expats are a vibrant community of mid-life-road-kill, professional pilgrims, bar-hounds, artists, humanitarians-with-a-purpose, creative maniacs, idle-rich, pursuers of ersatz nirvanas, beautiful dreamers, do-gooders-on-a-mission, romantics, predatory relics, young optimists, bums, intellectuals, drifters, sex-fiends, esoteric-hermetics, and alcoholics. Apologies if we left you out.

We've found the social life and friendships here we've wanted, and sometimes those we've needed. But, the want, and the need, they have waxed and waned, which seems, only natural.

We wonder: what did you risk while living here ? what did you dare ? what did you offer ? what did you share ?

We wonder if wondering, like breathing, is best not stopped, perhaps makes the world fresh, and we sincerely wish that you experience fresh, and suddenly find Chiang Mai a cornucopia of social delights (or, a smorgasbord, if you like).

If you leave Chiang Mai, neither you or Chiang Mai will ever be the same; we suspect that the experience of "sameness" in living in Chiang Mai is something we construct, not something we find.

best, ~o:37;

[Tonto21]

Hey Orita……How come it's took you two years to see this, Iknow what you mean mate, I'm sure not all by any means are stuck-up, but it sure feels like it. I have only met a few good guys in and around CM. Some are so stand offish and play the 'my black cat is blacker than your black cat game' I think it's a vicious circle, open minded people keep getting closed down by the saddos, ( sad individual) in CM, after a while they give up trying to initiate conversation and before long……..They join the saddo! Have to say move to Mae Taeng we have a far better class of saddo than CM!

Edited August 1, 2011 by metisdead
Font reset, please use default forum font when posting.

[Semper]

........... more of a reflection on you, with an attitude like that ......good luck.

An excellent example of the OP's complaint.

Really? What I intended to express was that if the op had that attitude while in a social situation, I would not be inclined to engage them in the type of converstion they may desire, the op comes across as highly negative and overly critical.

the op comes across as highly negative and overly critical.

Or very realistic.

[pete66]

<snip> Sounds like you should have never come to Thailand. Why did you come?

Mostly for the alcoholism.

But I must say that after a few years of slugging down large bottles of beer with sweat pouring down my face -- while listening to some girl jabber something about "sister brother me need motorcy" or how I shouldn't "think too much ... just same same but different" -- the experience, even drunk, began to wear thin.

I post here because I happen to know a lot about Thailand and retain an interest in the place. I do many other things as well. This is just one of them.

thanks for your honesty. Though I'm not really sure how much you really know about Thailand. Thai alcohol and hookers for sure, much else, I have my doubts.

Quick tip for anyone coming to Thailand. If you really want to know the locals, learn to speak Thai properly. Most Thais can't express themselves in English and if you can't speak Thai, doesn't leave a lot of room for a conversation beyond "same same" does it?

[OlafStapleton]

I once go to ex-pat club in CM.

If only place I go them agree.

Bar much more fun. Much nicer people.

[Yelly]

I have to agree somewhat. While I have made some great expat friends (and even around my age!), I have noticed a slight bit of hostility from other expats here (mainly the types you cross on the street).

I started my own personal social experiment when it started getting to me, about three weeks ago. I have been smiling and attempting eye contact with every single farang I see that may possibly live here. About 2 out of every 15 will acknowledge and return it. Once, an older white man in my condo building struck up a short conversation on the elevator after I smiled and said "hello." That interaction left me in a good mood the rest of my evening!

SO, I have to say I do notice a bit of hostility. More often than not, they will not look back or they will turn a sour face or they will just ignore.

I am a 25-year-old-female and I don't wear fisherman pants. I shower twice a day. I work a full-time job and it isn't teaching. So, I can't imagine I perpetuate stereotypes or anything.

It is something I've noticed, but I'm trying not to let it get to me. Maybe it is the heat. Maybe it is the pollution and stress in the city. I have no idea, but to claim the OP is mad for noticing it is incorrect.

[mamborobert]

<snip> Sounds like you should have never come to Thailand. Why did you come?

Mostly for the alcoholism.

But I must say that after a few years of slugging down large bottles of beer with sweat pouring down my face -- while listening to some girl jabber something about "sister brother me need motorcy" or how I shouldn't "think too much ... just same same but different" -- the experience, even drunk, began to wear thin.

I post here because I happen to know a lot about Thailand and retain an interest in the place. I do many other things as well. This is just one of them.

thanks for your honesty. Though I'm not really sure how much you really know about Thailand. Thai alcohol and hookers for sure, much else, I have my doubts.

Quick tip for anyone coming to Thailand. If you really want to know the locals, learn to speak Thai properly. Most Thais can't express themselves in English and if you can't speak Thai, doesn't leave a lot of room for a conversation beyond "same same" does it?

Agreed it is very important to learn Thai (for functioning as well as freinds). Having said that (and at the risk of being considered an over exageration) you are still limited in the subject matter you discuss. I find a lot of Thais know little or take little interest in, the rest of the world, even the Uni crowds (and Uni crowds are probably just as limited elsewhere). World politics, varying styles of music, class literature (asian and western), religion, politics, sport (except maybe football) are dealt with superficially if at all. You get more than same same when you learn Thai but I really do not think (with my locals anyway) this has lead to deeper conversations (though the ability to speak Thai has lead to far better conversations and productive ones at that that had I not learned and tried). Generally its a yack about family, motorbikes, some crap television program, cost of produce at the market, where you go now, etc

This is probably reflective of the education system (its very recent extensions and limited scope) but also perhaps its just "different" not worse or bad, but "different" values, culture and priorities are different, and rightly so Shakespeare, Nietchze, and the US debt crisis lacks relevance ...and that can be a wonderful thing for a lot of the time, but for deep and meaningfuls on things that are important to me its sometimes "phone a friend" from Oz or the UK...and when I realise I do this I am begining to think that the OP's observations are not that askew.

Edited August 1, 2011 by mamborobert

[SteeleJoe]

But I must say that after a few years of slugging down large bottles of beer with sweat pouring down my face -- while listening to some girl jabber something about "sister brother me need motorcy" or how I shouldn't "think too much ... just same same but different"...

I post here because I happen to know a lot about Thailand...

Clearly.

[pete66]

I have to agree somewhat. While I have made some great expat friends (and even around my age!), I have noticed a slight bit of hostility from other expats here (mainly the types you cross on the street).

I started my own personal social experiment when it started getting to me, about three weeks ago. I have been smiling and attempting eye contact with every single farang I see that may possibly live here. About 2 out of every 15 will acknowledge and return it. Once, an older white man in my condo building struck up a short conversation on the elevator after I smiled and said "hello." That interaction left me in a good mood the rest of my evening!

SO, I have to say I do notice a bit of hostility. More often than not, they will not look back or they will turn a sour face or they will just ignore.

I am a 25-year-old-female and I don't wear fisherman pants. I shower twice a day. I work a full-time job and it isn't teaching. So, I can't imagine I perpetuate stereotypes or anything.

It is something I've noticed, but I'm trying not to let it get to me. Maybe it is the heat. Maybe it is the pollution and stress in the city. I have no idea, but to claim the OP is mad for noticing it is incorrect.

Again, to blame the heat is just strange. Its not even hot here compared with nearly everywhere in Thailand. Stress? This is one of the most laid back places in Thailand. Where is this stress? Pollution? Its not great, but I could hardly breathe for traffic fumes when I stayed in BKK.

Of course, a lot of "drunks on a budget" retire here because its cheaper than elsewhere in Thailand. I certainly noticed this was an "OAP haven" when I arrived. But just ignore them if they clearly don't want a conversation. They are pretty easy to spot, they are the smelly unshaven males carrying a bottle of Singha beer round at 10 am ..........

But its certainly not the "heat", "pollution", "traffic jams", "big-city stress". Its just people that for whatever reason, don't want to strike up a conversation. Let's face it, if you went back home, you wouldn't make eye contact with almost any of the people you are attempting to do so here. In any big city you expect to be "ignored" and "keep to yourself".

I'm always intrigued when farangs feel the need to reach out to other farangs here ..... I always put it down with them not being able to speak Thai, but I may be wrong.

[chaoyang]

thanks for your honesty. Though I'm not really sure how much you really know about Thailand. Thai alcohol and hookers for sure, much else, I have my doubts.

Actually I only did that for two years. For the following 12 years I lived a different type of life. I for one couldn't keep it up. In any event I had a real job for the 14 years I was in Chiang Mai.

Quick tip for anyone coming to Thailand. If you really want to know the locals, learn to speak Thai properly. Most Thais can't express themselves in English and if you can't speak Thai, doesn't leave a lot of room for a conversation beyond "same same" does it?

Thanks for the insight. I speak Thai and was married to a Thai who is a college grad. Learn to speak Thai and talk about the important stuff -- food and money. You won't likely be talking about the IMF -- unless some Thai politician has trotted it out as the latest boogieman.

Actually I have great compassion for the bargirls who have little choice in the matter and many are trying to hep their families survive. Sorry state of affairs that didn't exactly make me Mr. Sunshine about the place, as you can see.

[pete66]

<snip> Sounds like you should have never come to Thailand. Why did you come?

Mostly for the alcoholism.

But I must say that after a few years of slugging down large bottles of beer with sweat pouring down my face -- while listening to some girl jabber something about "sister brother me need motorcy" or how I shouldn't "think too much ... just same same but different" -- the experience, even drunk, began to wear thin.

I post here because I happen to know a lot about Thailand and retain an interest in the place. I do many other things as well. This is just one of them.

thanks for your honesty. Though I'm not really sure how much you really know about Thailand. Thai alcohol and hookers for sure, much else, I have my doubts.

Quick tip for anyone coming to Thailand. If you really want to know the locals, learn to speak Thai properly. Most Thais can't express themselves in English and if you can't speak Thai, doesn't leave a lot of room for a conversation beyond "same same" does it?

Agreed it is very important to learn Thai (for functioning as well as freinds). Having said that (and at the risk of being considered an over exageration) you are still limited in the subject matter you discuss. I find a lot of Thais know little or take little interest in, the rest of the world, even the Uni crowds (and Uni crowds are probably just as limited elsewhere). World politics, varying styles of music, class literature (asian and western), religion, politics, sport (except maybe football) are dealt with superficially if at all. You get more than same same when you learn Thai but I really do not think (with my locals anyway) this has lead to deeper conversations (though the ability to speak Thai has lead to far better conversations and productive ones at that that had I not learned and tried). Generally its a yack about family, motorbikes, some crap television program, cost of produce at the market, where you go now, etc

This is probably reflective of the education system (its very recent extensions and limited scope) but also perhaps its just "different" not worse or bad, but "different" values, culture and priorities are different, and rightly so Shakespeare, Nietchze, and the US debt crisis lacks relevance ...and that can be a wonderful thing for a lot of the time, but for deep and meaningfuls on things that are important to me its sometimes "phone a friend" from Oz or the UK...and when I realise I do this I am begining to think that the OP's observations are not that askew.

I think its just your "spheres of interest" don't intersect much, that is just a natural result of how you differ from the Thais. Everything is different for Thais - food, religion, politics, art, literature, music. There is really very little the same, even in this so called "global village".

So yeah, we are all going to feel homesick, how many Thais want to talk about the council election results in the UK? None. If so, like you say "phone a friend" for the fix.

For me, I've been here 15 years now, and my "sphere of interest" has shifted sufficiently I can happily talk with Thais about Thai stuff - all except for Thai politics, still hate that with a passion, but then again, most Thais do as well

[OlafStapleton]

I am a 25-year-old-female and I don't wear fisherman pants. I shower twice a day. I work a full-time job and it isn't teaching. So, I can't imagine I perpetuate stereotypes or anything.

I and friends usually avoid contact with western women.

Most younger think you try to pick them up (not true), so avoid.

Those older seem to either want you try pick up (eew!) or make rude comment on you lifestyle (young Thai gf), so avoid.

PS

Have nothing against western woman who be friend.

Just learn to not put in position to suffer nasty comment (NancyL) about behavior older western man.

Edited August 1, 2011 by OlafStapleton

[pete66]

Just a thought from someone coming from Bangkok. BKK is such a big city that no farang there ever really thought that seeing another farang was a moment worthy of "note" - just another body to shuffle past in the big city.

When I lived in the Thai sticks before that for a few years, and saw a farang (once a month at most), then of course it was an event worthy of a conversation at least. You certainly couldn't ignore each other.

Perhaps CM is somewhat of an "in-between" place ..... hence some people expect some kind of social contact, others don't.

[Yelly]

Of course, a lot of "drunks on a budget" retire here because its cheaper than elsewhere in Thailand. I certainly noticed this was an "OAP haven" when I arrived. But just ignore them if they clearly don't want a conversation. They are pretty easy to spot, they are the smelly unshaven males carrying a bottle of Singha beer round at 10 am ..........

But its certainly not the "heat", "pollution", "traffic jams", "big-city stress". Its just people that for whatever reason, don't want to strike up a conversation. Let's face it, if you went back home, you wouldn't make eye contact with almost any of the people you are attempting to do so here. In any big city you expect to be "ignored" and "keep to yourself".

I'm always intrigued when farangs feel the need to reach out to other farangs here ..... I always put it down with them not being able to speak Thai, but I may be wrong.

Maybe we feel the need to reach out to other farangs because it's interesting to meet other people who made the jump and moved halfway across the world? Perhaps these people have fun stories, much like myself? I don't find it strange to want a little connection with a similar person. I think it's silly to think that's wrong.

Also, back home in America: yes, I do make eye contact and attempt to talk to people. I've spent years in San Francisco and a bit of time in New York and I could say people in those places struck me as friendlier than here in Chiang Mai. Just an observation.

I guess it could be blamed on the hangovers, then.

[SteeleJoe]

<snip> Sounds like you should have never come to Thailand. Why did you come?

Mostly for the alcoholism.

But I must say that after a few years of slugging down large bottles of beer with sweat pouring down my face -- while listening to some girl jabber something about "sister brother me need motorcy" or how I shouldn't "think too much ... just same same but different" -- the experience, even drunk, began to wear thin.

I post here because I happen to know a lot about Thailand and retain an interest in the place. I do many other things as well. This is just one of them.

thanks for your honesty. Though I'm not really sure how much you really know about Thailand. Thai alcohol and hookers for sure, much else, I have my doubts.

Quick tip for anyone coming to Thailand. If you really want to know the locals, learn to speak Thai properly. Most Thais can't express themselves in English and if you can't speak Thai, doesn't leave a lot of room for a conversation beyond "same same" does it?

Agreed it is very important to learn Thai (for functioning as well as freinds). Having said that (and at the risk of being considered an over exageration) you are still limited in the subject matter you discuss. I find a lot of Thais know little or take little interest in, the rest of the world, even the Uni crowds (and Uni crowds are probably just as limited elsewhere). World politics, varying styles of music, class literature (asian and western), religion, politics, sport (except maybe football) are dealt with superficially if at all. You get more than same same when you learn Thai but I really do not think (with my locals anyway) this has lead to deeper conversations (though the ability to speak Thai has lead to far better conversations and productive ones at that that had I not learned and tried). Generally its a yack about family, motorbikes, some crap television program, cost of produce at the market, where you go now, etc

This is probably reflective of the education system (its very recent extensions and limited scope) but also perhaps its just "different" not worse or bad, but "different" values, culture and priorities are different, and rightly so Shakespeare, Nietchze (sic), and the US debt crisis lacks relevance ...and that can be a wonderful thing for a lot of the time, but for deep and meaningfuls on things that are important to me its sometimes "phone a friend" from Oz or the UK...and when I realise I do this I am begining to think that the OP's observations are not that askew.

It's like any other group of people (though the percentages may vary): I've come across LOADS of Farangs who don't discuss much more than football, whorin', how much they drank or are going to drink, sweeping and highly simplistic comments about Thais and Thailand, and the occasional trite and superficially informed comment about US or European politics. I also know some with whom I can have very interesting conversations about life, politics, history, social issues, relationships, Thai culture and society (good and bad of both)and more...and guess what? While I'm not unaware of how many Thais are uninformed and uninterested in all but rather shallow stuff I regularly have excellent conversations with Thais about about life, politics, history, social issues, relationships, film, books, art, Thai culture and society (good and bad of both and more)...and I've been having those conversations for a couple decades now.

I admit I don't discuss Shakespeare, Nietzsche (and no offense but if you want to suggest intellectual superiority with name-dropping, you ought to spell it right ) , and the US debt crisis much with any of them (though actually have discussed both of the former on occasion and the latter a few times the last month. But truth be told, while I'm a well read thinking man with wide range of interests many of which are generally considered to be fairly "heavy" and "deep", I don't often discuss Shakespeare, Nietzsche, and the US debt crisis with my Farang conversational partners either -- not even with some of the most intellectual of my friends or relatives (my father -- thought of by some of his fellow PhD types an intellectual giant -- doesn't even talk about that stuff with me. We talk about the topics I mentioned earlier and I don't think it's any less weighty because it doesn't fit into the cliche of "intellectual topics".)

In fact, I'd not have been with the same --admittedly uncommonly intelligent and insightful -- woman I have been for 19 years if there weren't Thais who are interested in and capable of interesting discussions (and while she is special, she is NOT only one).