Buying Property - Protection For Foreigner

[binjalin]

1323337945[/url]' post='4898937']

1323333526[/url]' post='4898800']

Not in my case it's undated and signed - if you are referring to a relationship as in wife or gf/bf then yes

A relationship is also with the one who gave you the PoA. Does not have to be your wife or girlfriend. At least with a girlfriend or wife you know when things are going worse. With a stranger you don't, it can happen when least expected.

The way it can be done is a simple visit to the landoffice asking to revoke your PoA. And because an undated, signed PoA is not valid it is just a simple procedure.

Actually when you show up with your PoA, they will just laugh at the sillyness of it.

On the front you have a line

.....to have authority to carry out the actions on my behalf until they are terminated.

This is on the backside of a PoA from the landoffice.

Point 5 is the crucial one.

Instructions

For the land owner & the interested person protections

1) A power of attorney done outside Thailand must be certified by an embassy or a consulate or a notary public.

2) Clearly specify subject and arrangement to delegate one's authority such as sell, buy, mortgage, etc. If there are any special conditions please explain.

3) Do not use different writing and different color ink in this form also have to be a same type writer.

4) If there any erased marks, retouched marks, corrected marks, or cross-out mark, specify how many and the appointer has to sign next to every mark.

5) An appointer shall not sign his/her name before the form is completely filled and correct

6) There must be at least one witness. If an appointer uses thumbprint, there must be at least 2 witnesses. Witnesses must sign, not thumbprint.

7) A power of attorney done outside Thailand must be certified by an embassy or a consulate or a notary public.

Been done many times oh padwan

[Khun Jean]

Sure you can make a PoA. But using them is a different story, especially when the landowner does not cooperate.

You just have no guarantee at all and depend on luck.

Sure you can be lucky, and nothing wrong with that when you also know the consequences of not being lucky.

Everyone has a different appetite for risk. I only do low risk, and it seems you like high risk.

The problem is that many people read this website and think what you did is the solution for their problem. Understanding the risk involved is very important otherwise you make the wrong decisions.

Now who is the padawan.

And in my experience there is no such thing as luck.")

Edited December 8, 2011 by Khun Jean

[binjalin]

1323339990[/url]' post='4899005']

Sure you can make a PoA. But using them is a different story, especially when the landowner does not cooperate.

You just have no guarantee at all and depend on luck.

Sure you can be lucky, and nothing wrong with that when you also know the consequences of not being lucky.

Everyone has a different appetite for risk. I only do low risk, and it seems you like high risk.

The problem is that many people read this website and think what you did is the solution for their problem. Understanding the risk involved is very important otherwise you make the wrong decisions.

Now who is the padawan.

And in my experience there is no such thing as luck.")

Everyone must do what they think right after research and understanding risk - i am very comfortable with my documents and with my good friend of many years who has signed all the documents, copies of ID etc. and who is married to a farang.

[Khun Jean]

1323339990[/url]' post='4899005']

Sure you can make a PoA. But using them is a different story, especially when the landowner does not cooperate.

You just have no guarantee at all and depend on luck.

Sure you can be lucky, and nothing wrong with that when you also know the consequences of not being lucky.

Everyone has a different appetite for risk. I only do low risk, and it seems you like high risk.

The problem is that many people read this website and think what you did is the solution for their problem. Understanding the risk involved is very important otherwise you make the wrong decisions.

Now who is the padawan.

And in my experience there is no such thing as luck.")

Everyone must do what they think right after research and understanding risk - i am very comfortable with my documents and with my good friend of many years who has signed all the documents, copies of ID etc. and who is married to a farang.

So it is not the PoA that makes you comfortable but your friends and the trust you have for them.

Nothing wrong with trust, it is the basis of everything and is what i use except for large investments. It is just that the PoA does not give you any stronger security. It can be terminated at any time, maybe it helps to keep your friends from the idea of selling. The usufruct is actually doing that, but when your moment comes to sell, i would not like to base the outcome on trust.

[binjalin]

1323342164[/url]' post='4899062']

1323341701[/url]' post='4899047']

1323339990[/url]' post='4899005']

Sure you can make a PoA. But using them is a different story, especially when the landowner does not cooperate.

You just have no guarantee at all and depend on luck.

Sure you can be lucky, and nothing wrong with that when you also know the consequences of not being lucky.

Everyone has a different appetite for risk. I only do low risk, and it seems you like high risk.

The problem is that many people read this website and think what you did is the solution for their problem. Understanding the risk involved is very important otherwise you make the wrong decisions.

Now who is the padawan.

And in my experience there is no such thing as luck.")

Everyone must do what they think right after research and understanding risk - i am very comfortable with my documents and with my good friend of many years who has signed all the documents, copies of ID etc. and who is married to a farang.

So it is not the PoA that makes you comfortable but your friends and the trust you have for them.

Nothing wrong with trust, it is the basis of everything and is what i use except for large investments. It is just that the PoA does not give you any stronger security. It can be terminated at any time, maybe it helps to keep your friends from the idea of selling. The usufruct is actually doing that, but when your moment comes to sell, i would not like to base the outcome on trust.

My name is on the chanot and i have a pre-signed PoA and i am comfortable with that- even if worst came to worst i have lifetime right to live in the house and so will lose no sleep over it. If I had all my money tied up in it I might worry more - but as its a fraction I am unconcerned but everyone must judge for themselves.

[Khun Jean]

It is just that this topic is about protection and i just want to make very clear that an undated PoA is not giving any. Even a signed and dated PoA gives no protection for the future as it can be withdrawn at any moment.

It is the only reason why i 'pick' on you because the way your wrote it suggest you think it does.

Someone reading this that has to spend his live savings or a large portion of it should understand the risk.

The usufruct gives you the right to use it, not to sell or lease it. It means the money is spend and can not be recouped.

[binjalin]

1323345516[/url]' post='4899179']

It is just that this topic is about protection and i just want to make very clear that an undated PoA is not giving any. Even a signed and dated PoA gives no protection for the future as it can be withdrawn at any moment.

It is the only reason why i 'pick' on you because the way your wrote it suggest you think it does.

Someone reading this that has to spend his live savings or a large portion of it should understand the risk.

The usufruct gives you the right to use it, not to sell or lease it. It means the money is spend and can not be recouped.

Where did i state the PoA gives protection? I only said I have one signed and undated for my own reasons - in my case to sell the house when my friend is not here. The Usufruct is protection as it gives me the right of usage for my lifetime IF I decide to keep the house. My name IS on the chanot and that IS protection for ME.

By the way the Usufruct does give the right for me to use as I wish - including renting it out without referring to the Usufructor.

If anyone has concern DONT DO IT - that is obvious. There are some who dont want to own any property here - up to them. I have never advocated stupidity - check and re-check everything and if in doubt DONT DO IT. Hope that's clear

Edited December 9, 2011 by binjalin

[soundman]

I have removed a bickering session. Please debate in a civil manner.

[thaiwanderer]

Without bickering-

An undated POA provides no protection whatsoever.

Binjalin had made a bare reference to it (in a thread about protection) without at that time clarifying it was purely for the sake of convenience while the signatory was overseas.

The ability to use it in the future relies on the continued co-operation of the signatory (and less importantly will expire with the expiry of the ID attached to it). Having one now adds absolutely nothing. If they are still willing to help in the future they can sign then.

This would also avoid illegally presenting an invalid POA to the land office (invalid as undated, and illegal as dated later by someone other than the signatory).

Binjalin has also now made a bare assertion of his/her ability as an usufructuary to lease out property - perhaps he/she will have the good grace to clarify that claim also before I criticise it (in a debating rather than bickering manner).

[binjalin]

Facts - addressing the thread for everyone based on personal experience (ignore the personal ego stuff from 'someone')

1 you can get an Usufruct in your name and get it registered at the land office - full protection for your LIFETIME

2 it makes sense to get a pre-signed PoA with ID card without putting a date - never been challenged so far in many, many transactions at land office

3 do your own research - make sure you are comforable or DO NOT DO IT it should be someone you trust but whatever happens if you have the REGISTED Usufruct at land office you have nothing to worry about

4 you can rent out with no problems - you have full rights of USAGE - thats why it's called an Usufruct

5 trust no one - including tv experts (including me) check and re-check - I just share my experience, built on years of undertaking these transactions and having connection with others who have successfully done so (agents etc.)

6 read 3 again

Hope this helps - good luck and dont be too paranoid just DYOR and have fun!

[cdnvic]

More bickering deleted. The two parties involved will both lose there posting rights if it keeps up.

[Khun Jean]

Facts - addressing the thread for everyone based on personal experience (ignore the personal ego stuff from 'someone')

1 you can get an Usufruct in your name and get it registered at the land office - full protection for your LIFETIME

2 it makes sense to get a pre-signed PoA with ID card without putting a date - never been challenged so far in many, many transactions at land office

3 do your own research - make sure you are comforable or DO NOT DO IT it should be someone you trust but whatever happens if you have the REGISTED Usufruct at land office you have nothing to worry about

4 you can rent out with no problems - you have full rights of USAGE - thats why it's called an Usufruct

5 trust no one - including tv experts (including me) check and re-check - I just share my experience, built on years of undertaking these transactions and having connection with others who have successfully done so (agents etc.)

6 read 3 again

Hope this helps - good luck and dont be too paranoid just DYOR and have fun!

I agree with doing your own research, it is essential.

1) Full protection under conditions like not being married with the other party or when married adding a third party.

2) Makes no sense at all because it is illegal and invalid from the start. When challenged you will have no ability to defend it.

3) correct under conditions mentioned in 1.

4) Rental periods up to 3 years, no problem. Longer it will be denied at most landoffices. 30 years is at good as impossible.

5) Experiences vary wildly depending on location. Maybe mentioning an area will help. My area of expertise is in aquiring land, condos and leasing, developing, selling them in and around bangkok, Prachuap, Samui (very corrupt so nothing recent).

I have seen and spoken to many people, especially those that "bought" to have a place for their retirement, trusting agents and lawyers with devastating results.

It is a pity that 99% of developers, agents and lawyers make it difficult for the 1%.

[thaiwanderer]

4 you can rent out with no problems - you have full rights of USAGE - thats why it's called an Usufruct

Incorrect. Discussed here in detail before so won't rehash that (though iirc Sunbelt and Isaanlawyers failed to defend their postings / PR on this subject).

You are suggesting a Usufructuary can grant rights greater than their own.

I fully agree no one should rely on any TV experts.

[thaiwanderer]

2 it makes sense to get a pre-signed PoA with ID card without putting a date - never been challenged so far in many, many transactions at land office

Presumably you are not suggesting the POA remains undated when presented at the Land Office?

[binjalin]

1323508643[/url]' post='4903253']

1323444754[/url]' post='4901702']

2 it makes sense to get a pre-signed PoA with ID card without putting a date - never been challenged so far in many, many transactions at land office

Presumably you are not suggesting the POA remains undated when presented at the Land Office?

No it can be filled in and dated when a sale date is known but I do not advocate doing this, of course, unless you are a close friend and trust them over many years

[binjalin]

1323501961[/url]' post='4903020']

1323444754[/url]' post='4901702']

Facts - addressing the thread for everyone based on personal experience (ignore the personal ego stuff from 'someone')

1 you can get an Usufruct in your name and get it registered at the land office - full protection for your LIFETIME

2 it makes sense to get a pre-signed PoA with ID card without putting a date - never been challenged so far in many, many transactions at land office

3 do your own research - make sure you are comforable or DO NOT DO IT it should be someone you trust but whatever happens if you have the REGISTED Usufruct at land office you have nothing to worry about

4 you can rent out with no problems - you have full rights of USAGE - thats why it's called an Usufruct

5 trust no one - including tv experts (including me) check and re-check - I just share my experience, built on years of undertaking these transactions and having connection with others who have successfully done so (agents etc.)

6 read 3 again

Hope this helps - good luck and dont be too paranoid just DYOR and have fun!

I agree with doing your own research, it is essential.

1) Full protection under conditions like not being married with the other party or when married adding a third party.

2) Makes no sense at all because it is illegal and invalid from the start. When challenged you will have no ability to defend it.

3) correct under conditions mentioned in 1.

4) Rental periods up to 3 years, no problem. Longer it will be denied at most landoffices. 30 years is at good as impossible.

5) Experiences vary wildly depending on location. Maybe mentioning an area will help. My area of expertise is in aquiring land, condos and leasing, developing, selling them in and around bangkok, Prachuap, Samui (very corrupt so nothing recent).

I have seen and spoken to many people, especially those that "bought" to have a place for their retirement, trusting agents and lawyers with devastating results.

It is a pity that 99% of developers, agents and lawyers make it difficult for the 1%.

I agree be very, very careful but i have described a situation which works for many people and it may be useful for others but not ALL

[thaiwanderer]

2 it makes sense to get a pre-signed PoA with ID card without putting a date - never been challenged so far in many, many transactions at land office

Presumably you are not suggesting the POA remains undated when presented at the Land Office?

No it can be filled in and dated when a sale date is known but I do not advocate doing this, of course, unless you are a close friend and trust them over many years

I do not advocate doing this at all since its illegal

Interesting the issue of trust for you seems to be about the signatory rather than the other way round?

[thaiwanderer]

4 you can rent out with no problems - you have full rights of USAGE - thats why it's called an Usufruct

The issue of no liability for the mistake of government officials aside, how many times have you successfully registered at the land office a 30 year lease granted by a Usufructuary?

[binjalin]

1323531421[/url]' post='4903983']

1323444754[/url]' post='4901702']

4 you can rent out with no problems - you have full rights of USAGE - thats why it's called an Usufruct

The issue of no liability for the mistake of government officials aside, how many times have you successfully registered at the land office a 30 year lease granted by a Usufructuary?

Frankly I have no idea what you are talking about - I am talking about renting out on a 6 or 12 month contract

Can you let it go now? You dont know what you are talking about, thanks

[Khun Jean]

Its all in the details. Because when you say renting out is no problem, some would think that a 30 year lease which is very common is meant. Amazingly even the 30+30+30 year leases are still sold, so being very clear and specific is important.

Anything up to 3 years don't need registration at the land office and thus no problem.

Longer than that and you will meet difficulties, even with a usufruct and even when you add some clauses in the contract that specifically allows you to do that. The landoffice will overrule it. Like when you rent out to someone who wants to build a business a 10 year contract is the minimum. it means less possibilities to develop the land.

If you 'buy' land and have control with a usufruct, your money is locked and the only way to get some money back is through renting out on short terms. If that give enough ROI then i am all for it.

If it is bought to build a house on it to live in, be sure it is somewhere your really like because selling it would be very difficult and needs the landowner to agree. And that will probably cost. As such a usufruct is deprecating in value, same like a lease. While the landowner will enjoy a appreciation and then to think that the price paid is probably the same as buying outright. Just something to think about for people when you get older and have assets that go down in value very quick.

Buying a house in another country with better laws will not put you in that position.

[binjalin]

1323541123[/url]' post='4904118']

Its all in the details. Because when you say renting out is no problem, some would think that a 30 year lease which is very common is meant. Amazingly even the 30+30+30 year leases are still sold, so being very clear and specific is important.

Anything up to 3 years don't need registration at the land office and thus no problem.

Longer than that and you will meet difficulties, even with a usufruct and even when you add some clauses in the contract that specifically allows you to do that. The landoffice will overrule it. Like when you rent out to someone who wants to build a business a 10 year contract is the minimum. it means less possibilities to develop the land.

If you 'buy' land and have control with a usufruct, your money is locked and the only way to get some money back is through renting out on short terms. If that give enough ROI then i am all for it.

If it is bought to build a house on it to live in, be sure it is somewhere your really like because selling it would be very difficult and needs the landowner to agree. And that will probably cost. As such a usufruct is deprecating in value, same like a lease. While the landowner will enjoy a appreciation and then to think that the price paid is probably the same as buying outright. Just something to think about for people when you get older and have assets that go down in value very quick.

Buying a house in another country with better laws will not put you in that position.

Morning you are quite right - I was only referring to one year or less and the house I have bought is with a trusted friend as a 'get-a-way' outside the city. I would not recommend this for everyone as I have made clear but the other poster is just trying to wind me up.

I have done this successfully and if research is underaken and in the right circumstances it's fine within the LIMITATIONS of where we live and our limited rights. I think all has been said and I dont think we can usefully add more to this topic - yes it can be done but be careful!

[thaiwanderer]

4 you can rent out with no problems - you have full rights of USAGE - thats why it's called an Usufruct

The issue of no liability for the mistake of government officials aside, how many times have you successfully registered at the land office a 30 year lease granted by a Usufructuary?

Frankly I have no idea what you are talking about - I am talking about renting out on a 6 or 12 month contract

Can you let it go now? You dont know what you are talking about, thanks

Without bickering and having no desire to wind you up, you hadn't made that clear hence my comment.

Edited December 11, 2011 by thaiwanderer

[binjalin]

1323577247[/url]' post='4904752']

1323538558[/url]' post='4904087']

1323531421[/url]' post='4903983']

1323444754[/url]' post='4901702']

4 you can rent out with no problems - you have full rights of USAGE - thats why it's called an Usufruct

The issue of no liability for the mistake of government officials aside, how many times have you successfully registered at the land office a 30 year lease granted by a Usufructuary?

Frankly I have no idea what you are talking about - I am talking about renting out on a 6 or 12 month contract

Can you let it go now? You dont know what you are talking about, thanks

Without bickering and having no desire to wind you up, you hadn't made that clear hence my comment.

Its common here for many of us to rent out property on 12 month rental contracts and I can honestly say in years I have never know it to be above one year and quite often 3/6 months - i let out one room on a 3 year contract once (and they left after 2 years) and that was highly unusual.

[thaiwanderer]

Its common here for many of us to rent out property on 12 month rental contracts and I can honestly say in years I have never know it to be above one year and quite often 3/6 months - i let out one room on a 3 year contract once (and they left after 2 years) and that was highly unusual.

Obviously, if we are just talking about renting out rooms.

Edited December 11, 2011 by thaiwanderer

[binjalin]

1323578421[/url]' post='4904789']

1323577563[/url]' post='4904761']

Its common here for many of us to rent out property on 12 month rental contracts and I can honestly say in years I have never know it to be above one year and quite often 3/6 months - i let out one room on a 3 year contract once (and they left after 2 years) and that was highly unusual.

Obviously, if we are just talking about renting out rooms.

Houses too

[thaiwanderer]

Its common here for many of us to rent out property on 12 month rental contracts and I can honestly say in years I have never know it to be above one year and quite often 3/6 months - i let out one room on a 3 year contract once (and they left after 2 years) and that was highly unusual.

Obviously, if we are just talking about renting out rooms.

Houses too

So when you suggested 'you can rent out no problems' you were only referring to unregistered leases?

[binjalin]

1323607558[/url]' post='4905657']

1323590468[/url]' post='4905155']

1323578421[/url]' post='4904789']

1323577563[/url]' post='4904761']

Its common here for many of us to rent out property on 12 month rental contracts and I can honestly say in years I have never know it to be above one year and quite often 3/6 months - i let out one room on a 3 year contract once (and they left after 2 years) and that was highly unusual.

Obviously, if we are just talking about renting out rooms.

Houses too

So when you suggested 'you can rent out no problems' you were only referring to unregistered leases?

Yes, of course... Why register? I have a lifetime Usufruct and I can let the house for 1 year contracts as and if I wish to do so - but actually, in my case, I will sell the house as I dont use it too much - I have a pre-signed PoA as my good friend is going with her husband abroad and may not be available to attend the land office. I did explain all that

Maybe you 'get' what I was saying now?

[thaiwanderer]

So when you suggested 'you can rent out no problems' you were only referring to unregistered leases?

Yes, of course... Why register? I have a lifetime Usufruct and I can let the house for 1 year contracts as and if I wish to do so - but actually, in my case, I will sell the house as I dont use it too much - I have a pre-signed PoA as my good friend is going with her husband abroad and may not be available to attend the land office. I did explain all that

Maybe you 'get' what I was saying now?

Not really. Without bickering, you've made various claims for your strategy that when examined bear little resemblance to the original claims.

Unregistered leases are hardly the full gambit of renting out 'no problems'.

You now say you are selling the house and have a pre-signed POA for this purpose.

Why not own the house in your own name? (or perhaps you are again being imprecise in your choice of words?)

Are you selling the house on your own behalf or your friend's (who owns it?), what about the land and the usufruct?

Are they being sold, leased, usufruct granted? Or transfer of usufruct? or habitation or superficies?

Does the POA enable you to receive sale funds that properly belong to your friend?

I'm wholly unconcerned with your business but am interested in the apparent confidence and certainty you have in your strategy yet you express its advantages very carelessly and incorrectly (no offence).

[Khun Jean]

I think the whole 'protection' part is forgotten.

Protection is what you need when you have a conflict.

When everything is fine and perfect, there is no need for protection.

We all know that relationships can go bad, promises broken, etc..

At such moments protection is all you have left.

I think if we look back at our own lives or to family, friends and others we know that the need for protecting things that are important to you is something that is often forgotten and often stupid in hindsight. And that is not only the case in Thailand.

Prenuptials are very common when one of the people who get married has worked long and hard to have some wealth and the other has little. Upon divorce these are very important.

Thaiand has 'Sin Suan Tua', which means everything you owned before getting married is and stays with you. A prenuptial as in the west is most of the time not needed. Once married new bought property is "Sin Somros" except when one of the spouses gets it as a gift! Also if the Thai national inherits property or money it is categorized as 'Sin Suan Tua'.

It is also one of the reason why foreigners have to sign a paper that the land bought while being married is the sole property of the Thai national (as foreigners may not own land this duty rests upon the landoffice), meaning it will be 'Sin Suan Tua'! If you buy a house when married, only the house will be 'Sin Somros'.

When you are going to divorce this 'Sin Suan Tua' and 'Sin Somros' is the basis on which everything will be decided.

One person can walk away from a multi million baht property, another persons will feel like his live is over. Have seen a few that lost everything and were going back to their country and live on government support. Only because the 'other' was such a nice and trustworthy person.

Just be careful, weigh your risk, get informed, get informed some more and then make the decision.

If there is just a hint of doubt in your mind , rent or buy a condominium.

[binjalin]

1323610722[/url]' post='4905782']

1323609389[/url]' post='4905741']

1323607558[/url]' post='4905657']

So when you suggested 'you can rent out no problems' you were only referring to unregistered leases?

Yes, of course... Why register? I have a lifetime Usufruct and I can let the house for 1 year contracts as and if I wish to do so - but actually, in my case, I will sell the house as I dont use it too much - I have a pre-signed PoA as my good friend is going with her husband abroad and may not be available to attend the land office. I did explain all that

Maybe you 'get' what I was saying now?

Not really. Without bickering, you've made various claims for your strategy that when examined bear little resemblance to the original claims.

Unregistered leases are hardly the full gambit of renting out 'no problems'.

You now say you are selling the house and have a pre-signed POA for this purpose.

Why not own the house in your own name? (or perhaps you are again being imprecise in your choice of words?)

Are you selling the house on your own behalf or your friend's (who owns it?), what about the land and the usufruct?

Are they being sold, leased, usufruct granted? Or transfer of usufruct? or habitation or superficies?

Does the POA enable you to receive sale funds that properly belong to your friend?

I'm wholly unconcerned with your business but am interested in the apparent confidence and certainty you have in your strategy yet you express its advantages very carelessly and incorrectly (no offence).

You obviously dont live here? Nor have even a limited understanding of Thai law? Farang cannot 'own' and therefore cannot 'sell in their own name' - that's the whole point! From all of your comments I can see that you are inexperienced and have not really grasped it (although I thought you might have in your last post but you still haven't - and i'm not sure what your motvation is in not 'getting it'). When did I suggest renting out 'no problems'? I stated 'usufruct and I can rent out no problems' which is not the same thing.

I respectfully suggest you stay well clear of property in Thailand - I own,sell and rent sucessfully and consult lawyers when I need. I am confident I have no issues or problems which you are trying your best to 'imagine'. The thread was about 'protection' and I am fully protected.