Dual Citizenship (us & Thai)

[endlessnights]

hi all,

when I left the U.S., I used my US passport and when I entered Thailand I used my Thai passport.. 4 months later I left Thailand with my Thai passport and entered the U.S. with my U.S. passport.. then back to Thailand 2 weeks later the same way.. so I've been here for about 10 months.. and I'm going back in January.

I was wondering if anyone heard about any changes/problems with getting back in the U.S. recently with this method.. I'm not sure if I'm being paranoid or not but my mother told me that she's heard that at the U.S. airports they asked questions about why the passport was not stamped and when mentioned that they had a thai passport, they got it taken away and have to go to court, blahblah.. a whole big ordeal.

I know I still have a few months to worry about it, but I'm going to Singapore tomorrow and I'm debating whether to use my Thai passport (no problems) or my U.S. passport both ways and get a tourist visa then have it extended or go for a visa run until I go back. (I'm a bit clueless about visas)

or before I go back to the US, go to cambodia to get a visa and back, then to the U.S.

my mom also told me at the airport in the U.S. to NOT say that I have a thai passport, and to lie and say that I've been in thailand for less than a month and they didn't stamp my passport if they start to question me. and I do NOT feel comfortable about lying.

I'm not sure if I'm over complicating things here....

any help would be appreciated.. thank you for your patience.

[lopburi3]

When and if this ever happens I suspect we will have first hand accounts very quickly as there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people doing this every day of the year.

[endlessnights]

ok thanks! that's all I needed.

When and if this ever happens I suspect we will have first hand accounts very quickly as there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people doing this every day of the year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

Endless nights.

Under US law you are required to enter/exit US on your US passport.

So that is what you must do. I suspect your mum just wants you to stay at home with her -I am serious.

Lopburi,

Don't write cr*p. Neither hundreds nor thousands of people do this every day. And even if they did I hardly think they would be rushing to inform this site.

[sriracha john]

Whatever you decide, I would NOT lie to any direct questioning by authorities... as it can land you in much more hot water than having dual passports. Even if they DO confiscate the Thai passport, that's much better than the alternative of lying to officials.

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

OP. NO ONE IS GOING TO CONFISCATE YOUR THAI PASSPORT.

Being landed inHOT water due to having dual passports?????

Sriracha John...go get a COLD shower.

[sriracha john]

You misunderstood me. Didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with dual passports, just that there is something definitely wrong with lying to the authorities in that situation.

You really SHOULD go back on your medications.

Edited October 28, 2005 by sriracha john

[sbk]

When I had problems with my (US) passport this year (someone reported it as lost in the computer, when obviously, it had not been lost) I was told that the worst that would happen was that they would confiscate my passport but as I was clearly an American citizen they could not deny me entry.

And SALN, do you really think there aren't hundreds if not thousands of Americans with dual citizenship? Lop does not write cr@p, he is a mine of useful information.

Remember to mind your manners when posting

[Judge]

Do you have dual citizenship?

If so, I believe that these is illegal for Americans and that you can have your US citizenship revoked.

Be very careful!

[sbk]

Do you have dual citizenship?

If so, I believe that these is illegal for Americans and that you can have your US citizenship revoked.

Be very careful! 

No I do not, but I know for a fact it is not illegal and you cannot have your citizenship revoked. I checked with the State Dept about this already. Total fallacy, probably another urban myth.

Only way to lose your citizenship is to go the US embassy and renounce it.

[Judge]

Interesting.

I was looking into a second passport a few years ago and was told that you couldn't let the US Government know about dual citizenship by several different sources which seemed reliable at the time.

[lopburi3]

UNITED STATES

CITIZENSHIP: Citizenship is based upon Title 8 of U.S. Code 1401 - 1409, dated 1986.

BY BIRTH: Child born within the territory of the United States, regardless of the citizenship of

the parents.

BY DESCENT:

Child born abroad, both of whose parents are citizens of the United States, and one of

whom resided in the United States before the birth of the child.

Child born abroad, one of whose parents is a citizen of the United States who resided in

the United States for at least five years before the birth of the child.

BY NATURALIZATION: United States citizenship may be acquired upon fulfillment of the

following conditions:

Person must be 18 years old, have resided in the United States for at least five years as a

lawful permanent resident, be able to speak, read, and write English, be of good moral

character, be familiar with the history and culture of the country, be attached to the

principles of the United States Constitution, and have renounced former citizenship.

Foreign citizens who marry citizens of the United States need only reside in the United

States for three years, but must still fulfill the other conditions.

OTHER: Certain provisions for granting citizenship have been extended to persons who have

performed specific military service to this country. For more information, contact the U.S.

Immigration and Naturalization Service.

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: RECOGNIZED

Based on the U.S. Department of State regulation on dual citizenship (7 FM 1162), the Supreme

Court of the United States has stated that dual citizenship is a “status long recognized in the law”

and that “a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to

the responsibilities of both. The mere fact he asserts the rights of one citizenship does not without

more mean that he renounces the other,” (Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717) (1952).

The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) does not define dual citizenship or take a position for it

or against it. There has been no prohibition against dual citizenship, but some provisions of the

INA and earlier U.S. nationality laws were designed to reduce situations in which dual citizenship

exists.

United States law does not contain any provisions requiring U.S. citizens who are born with dual

citizenship or who acquire a second citizenship at an early age to choose one or the other when

they become adults (Mandeli v. Acheson, 344 U.S. 133) (1952). The current citizenship laws of the

United States do not specifically refer to dual citizenship.

While recognizing the existence of dual citizenship and permitting Americans to have other

citizenships, the U.S. Government does not endorse dual citizenship as a matter of policy because

of the problems that it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual-national U.S. citizens often

place them in situations where their obligations to one country are in conflict with the laws of the

other.

LOSS OF CITIZENSHIP:

VOLUNTARY: Voluntary renunciation of United States citizenship is permitted by law.

However, renunciation can only be made at a U.S. Consulate outside the United States.

INVOLUNTARY: The following are grounds for involuntary loss of United States citizenship:

Person commits treason against the United States.

Person takes an oath of allegiance to a foreign state.

Person joins the armed forces of a country at war with the U.S.

ANY QUESTIONS concerning citizenship policy of the U.S. or its territories should be sent to the

address below:

U.S. Department of State

Office of Consular Affairs

Washington, DC 20520

Telephone: 202-647-4000

Edited October 29, 2005 by lopburi3

[sbk]

I have been attempting to obtain a Thai passport and contacted the US State dept about it last year. I was told that it is not illegal to obtain a second passport just not encouraged. And it is certainly not illegal to be born with two.

From the US Embassy Dual citizenship

Dual Citizenship

In the 1980's, the Supreme Court ruled that citizenship is a constitutional right that cannot be taken away from a citizen who does not intend to relinquish it. Therefore, such actions as naturalization in a foreign country, travel on a foreign passport, employment with a foreign government, and voting in a foreign election do not automatically jeopardize American citizenship. However, please note that all U.S. citizens, even dual nationals, must enter and depart the United States on U.S. passports.

[Judge]

Thank you.

This might be very good news for me!

[Nordlys]

I have been attempting to obtain a Thai passport and contacted the US State dept about it last year. I was told that it is not illegal to obtain a second passport just not encouraged. And it is certainly not illegal to be born with two.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SBK, my brother who, like me also has dual citizenships, attempted to enter Thailand on his return trip with a Thai passport issued in Thailand after leaving Thailand with the other passport, was refused entry with Thai passport and was told to produce the other passport of which he left Thailand with.

[lopburi3]

I have been attempting to obtain a Thai passport and contacted the US State dept about it last year. I was told that it is not illegal to obtain a second passport just not encouraged. And it is certainly not illegal to be born with two.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SBK, my brother who, like me also has dual citizenships, attempted to enter Thailand on his return trip with a Thai passport issued in Thailand after leaving Thailand with the other passport, was refused entry with Thai passport and was told to produce the other passport of which he left Thailand with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is apples and oranges as the USA officially allows dual citizenship but Thailand does not (just no laws against it).

Edited October 29, 2005 by lopburi3

[Nordlys]

This is apples and oranges as the USA officially allows dual citizenship but Thailand does not (just no laws against it).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But is there any legitimacy to refusing its own citizen to enter his/her own country travelling on a travel document issued by his own country, whatever else the passport s/he has or left the origin of the journey with?

[sbk]

Had he entered thailand on one passport and left on the other on the previous trip? Might have set off alarms. Also, second mistake, don't even mention the other passport.

[Nordlys]

Had he entered thailand on one passport and left on the other on the previous trip? Might have set off alarms. Also, second mistake, don't even mention the other passport.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, he left Thailand with the other passport and returned to Thailand with a Thai passport. Me and my brother were born in Thailand and been living here for many years until we left Thailand for college education overseas, travelling on non-Thai passport. Now we're back in Thailand living here again probably for good, seeking a way to end our immigrational status here as a foreigner and starting a fresh new life as a Thai citizen. My brother didn't mention he has the other passport. It was obvious to the immigration officer at Don Muang as if not for the other passport he could not have left the point of the origin in the first place as he produced a blank Thai passport without any stamp trail.

Here's what samran suggested I do (3rd last post in the thread).

Highly dodge and risky as he said.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...al+citizenships

Edited October 29, 2005 by Nordlys

[Mr Red]

My wife has both Thai and US pp, and we were planning to exit/enter US on US pp, enter/exit Thailand on Thai pp. She was nervous, so called the Thai Embassy in Washington. They told her NOT to use two pp, mostly because of the US rules and possible problems re-entereing US.

This trip she will use US pp all the way since we will be incountry less than 30 days, but the whole reason to renew her Thai pp was to allow longer stays in Thailand. She is wondering (as am I) if she will have to follow the same visa rules I will when we retire and start staying longer.

Still up in the air here -- we are too nervous to challenge the system right now.

[JimGant]

My wife has both Thai and US pp, and we were planning to exit/enter US on US pp, enter/exit Thailand on Thai pp. She was nervous, so called the Thai Embassy in Washington. They told her NOT to use two pp, mostly because of the US rules and possible problems re-entereing US.

Here's my take, FWIW:

At some point in the near future (but maybe already here?), all international travellers will be tracked by computer. When you depart a country, a file is opened -- and will remain so until you enter another country, your passport is swiped (or number manually entered), and the file is annotated as having "arrived." When you finally return to your home country, your file is closed out. Thus, every one with a passport can (theoretically) be accounted for. So, using two passports would no doubt flag your file.

I don't think we're there yet. In fact, I don't even recall Don Muang Immigration swiping my passport....? (Maybe the passport number is manually entered later.) So, even tho' my US passport is swiped when I check in at the airline counter in the US, I suspect the US computer currently carries me 'open ended' until the rest of the world catches up technologically -- and until I once again enter the US. If so, then currently entering and leaving Thailand on a Thai passport should not trigger a flag on the US computer (unless maybe a name databank is now in effect....).

Could my wife leave the US on her Thai passport? Most likely, as the airline has no real reason to look for a US visa, which she doesn't have. However, since she would not be entered in the US computer as having departed on her US passport, problems could arrise when she tries to reenter the US at a later date (as the computer wouldn't show her as having left).

As has been said on previous posts, one should be able to talk their way out of any glitch caused by travelling on two passports, since dual citizenship is not illegal. But this could be time-consuming, especially if you get a dodo immigration officer. And I wonder, in this age of identity control, whether specific laws will be enacted to require dual citizens to travel on ONE passport only(?).

But we ain't there yet -- I don't think.

[lopburi3]

Could my wife leave the US on her Thai passport? Most likely, as the airline has no real reason to look for a US visa, which she doesn't have. However, since she would not be entered in the US computer as having departed on her US passport, problems could arrise when she tries to reenter the US at a later date (as the computer wouldn't show her as having left).

To leave the US using another passport is illegal under US law (for holders of US passports) and would not be allowed without her having a departure card in any case. Yes they would have reason to check for US visa if she tried to leave without a departure card.

The way to do it is always use the passport of the country involved. Enter/exit US with US passport and the same in Thailand. This is not normally a problem at either end but you always stand the chance of meeting someone having a bad day.

I agree that as the tracking system evolves there may well be changes and at some point we may well face the choice of one passport.

[autonomous_unit]

We do not have an "exit counter" run by immigration in the US, so I do present a passport to any official when I leave! Does the airline collect the US passport number and report it to the US immigration? They only touch it briefly to check identity for issuing the ticket (and a visa if they are worried about the cost of forced-return passengers), but I haven't really paid attention to see if they scan the first page or seem to be keying in the passport number.

I always thought the collection of departure cards for foreigners was specifically to track the exit data for foreign entries without requiring full-blown exit tracking for US citizens...

[lopburi3]

The poster was talking about leaving the US on a Thai passport with no visa or departure card (because holder also had a US passport). Airline always check for that card from any foreign passport holder. For the US passport it used to just be a visa check if required but believe it may be more now with the new bio passports and watch lists in place.

[samran]

I have been attempting to obtain a Thai passport and contacted the US State dept about it last year. I was told that it is not illegal to obtain a second passport just not encouraged. And it is certainly not illegal to be born with two.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SBK, my brother who, like me also has dual citizenships, attempted to enter Thailand on his return trip with a Thai passport issued in Thailand after leaving Thailand with the other passport, was refused entry with Thai passport and was told to produce the other passport of which he left Thailand with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Nordlys.

You might just wanting to try and leave the country on your Thai PP next time seeing that you have one. 'Lose' your Japanese one (or not) and forget about getting the exit stamp for that one.

I doubt immigration is going to come and check you out. If they do, tell them you are no longer a Japanese citizen. What are they going to do, contact the Japanese embassy to see if you are? That would involve too much work on their behalf.

Just for what it is worth, I slipped back into the country on my Thai passport a few days ago. No problem....again. My blond haired wife came though the Thai line with me. There were also a couple of farang women in the line next to me who showed their Thai passport to get into the country. We may as well have had 'Dual Nationals entering here' tatooed to our foreheads. And what did immigration do? Sweet FA.

[Nordlys]

Hi Samran,

Welcome back to LOS.

Are you saying that I shouldn't worry about myself risking overstaying as a foreigner as long as I try not to attempt leaving the country with the Japanese passport? Interesting. Yes, I am registered at the Japanese embassy here as an overseas resident but I can always remove that. It's not mandatory and I just lose voting right for Japanese election. But I'm trying to think of what problem that might arise when/if I'll ever live in Japan again in the future without a proof that I've been outside Japan (passport stamp trail isn't good enough in Japan).

BTW how did you get your Kiwi wife a Thai passport?

[samran]

Hi Samran,

Welcome back to LOS. 

Are you saying that I shouldn't worry about myself risking overstaying as a foreigner as long as I try not to attempt leaving the country with the Japanese passport?  Interesting.  Yes, I am registered at the Japanese embassy here as an overseas resident but I can always remove that.  It's not mandatory and I just lose voting right for Japanese election.  But I'm trying to think of what problem that might arise when/if I'll ever live in Japan again in the future without a proof that I've been outside Japan (passport stamp trail isn't good enough in Japan). 

BTW how did you get your Kiwi wife a Thai passport? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats exactly what I am saying. How can they charge you for overstaying if you have a Thai ID card and passport? Otherwise, you can still try my poipet visa run trick and get your japanese passport stamped out.

Wifey doesn't have a Thai PP, she just came through the Thai Passports line with me. However, two other Farang women also in one of the other Thai Passports line had Thai passports on them, which was pretty amazing to see.

Will investigate what the process is to get one as a female spouse of a Thai national.

[JimGant]

To leave the US using another passport is illegal under US law (for holders of US passports) and would not be allowed without her having a departure card in any case.

Didn't know that. Thanx.

Does the airline collect the US passport number and report it to the US immigration?

I know that at the United counter, when you check in for an international flight, that they now scan your passport's machine readable page. But don't know if that's just a safeguard for United to check against a list of "funny" passports -- or whether a travel file is being opened with Immigration. If not yet the latter, it's only a matter of time.

[sbk]

Hi Samran,

Welcome back to LOS. 

Are you saying that I shouldn't worry about myself risking overstaying as a foreigner as long as I try not to attempt leaving the country with the Japanese passport?  Interesting.  Yes, I am registered at the Japanese embassy here as an overseas resident but I can always remove that.  It's not mandatory and I just lose voting right for Japanese election.  But I'm trying to think of what problem that might arise when/if I'll ever live in Japan again in the future without a proof that I've been outside Japan (passport stamp trail isn't good enough in Japan). 

BTW how did you get your Kiwi wife a Thai passport? 

Thats exactly what I am saying. How can they charge you for overstaying if you have a Thai ID card and passport? Otherwise, you can still try my poipet visa run trick and get your japanese passport stamped out.

Wifey doesn't have a Thai PP, she just came through the Thai Passports line with me. However, two other Farang women also in one of the other Thai Passports line had Thai passports on them, which was pretty amazing to see.

Will investigate what the process is to get one as a female spouse of a Thai national.

Call the special branch police in BKK, they will give you all the details. But bewarned, you must do the application in the province you are registered in, so if you are registered in the boonies like myself they will probably not know how to do it

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

And SALN, do you really think there aren't hundreds if not thousands of Americans with dual citizenship? Lop does not write cr@p, he is a mine of useful information.

Remember to mind your manners when posting:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would go so far as to say there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of US citizens with dual citizenship and maybe exceeds a million. How many of those are Thai/US I have no idea. I can also say that there are not hundreds or thousands of these dual Thai/US passport holders travelling between US and Thialand every day which is what this post is about (or have I missed the point?).

Any YES Lop is an extremely well informed and authoritive contibutor to this site.

I search for his comments before all else (except possibly Dr Pat)

I agree he does not write cr*p but I think he is probably a little more thick skinned than you give him credit for.

I look forward to seeing you reprimand others who post using unparliamentary language.