Nokia Dieing Slowly

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It's kind of interesting... Nokia USA has long had its own website, and used to have various content there, including direct online sales of its own Nokia phones, and even occasional sales and clearances on older models...

The other day I went to the Nokia USA website to look for something, and it appears their entire direct Nokia phone sales capability has disappeared.... The info on the various Nokia/Symbian phone models is still there, and specs and accessories and such... But the ability to actually purchase direct from them via the Nokia USA website seems to be gone...

https://www.nokiausa.com/us-en/products/

[lomatopo]

Nokia in the U.S. used to be quite strong and robust, circa 2001, with strong ties to service providers and moved nearly every unit through them. They might have had 35% of the hand-set market. Over the years Nokia lost control of this channel, perhaps through mis-management, Qualcomm CDMA licensing issue, lack of competitive products or pricing (discounting actually). As sales dwindled they tried to go direct, but this was a doomed move as there is very little direct to end-user sales, and this did not sit well with service providers.

Anyway, they have a new VP of sales/marketing in the U.S., ex-Microsoft (not sure if this a good thing or a bad thing? Samsung Mobiles just hired a new VP of Sales/Marketing from Nike) and are going to try and get back in bed with service providers. The challenges of selling in the U.S. are a bit more complicated. As Steve Ballmer said, MSFT will be lucky to get to #3 with WP, but that includes all manufacturers, so Nokia might not be able to get to a survivability point in time? And they've got to balance their low-end Symbian hand-set business in emerging markets. Impossible? No, but it will take a lot of work, perfect execution, require a ton of money for marketing and a bit of luck, all while relying on MSFT, at the back-end and channel partners on the front-end.

[Crushdepth]

I really think they'll be struggling to pull out of the nose dive, Samsung, HTC and other hardware manufacturers are really starting to kick the crap out of the market. There's no way they are going to palm Symbian off to emerging markets, Android is going to own those. And the worse news is that Nokia's 'dumbphones' will shortly be in trouble too as today's high end hardware gets commoditised and Android moves further down market. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft buys Nokia in a couple of years. After the share price has tanked some more.

Gambling on Windows mobile and *not* taking a stake in Android - that was like putting five bullets in the revolver and pointing it at their head. It might pay off, but I doubt it.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Crushdepth

[lomatopo]

Gambling on Windows mobile and *not* taking a stake in Android - that was like putting five bullets in the revolver and pointing it at their head. It might pay off, but I doubt it.

Hmmm, Finnish Roulette, they're normally pretty efficient so they'd use six bullets.

As they say when comparing their homeland with that of their larger neighbor to the east, "In Russia nothing works, and everything can be arranged. In Finland, everything works, and nothing can be arranged."

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Americans don't want a BlackBerry. Really.: According to its quarterly filing, Research In Motion (Nasdaq: RIMM) saw it's US sales cut in half from $2.22 billion to $1.11 billion last quarter. In the U.K., sales slipped just 2.3 percent to $419 million, while sales in Canada rose 7.7 percent to $308 million. Notably, sales outside the U.S., U.K., and Canada rose 38 percent to $2.33 billion.

[lomatopo]

Does anybody actually still work at Nokia?

Cutting another 3,500 jobs, after announcing a previous cut of 4,000 and flushing 3,000 down the Accenture hole. And now dropping another billion euros on the unprofitable network group.

And note the Maps announcement.

This quarter's numbers will be horrific. How do you say "train wreck" in Suomi?

Nokia to Cut 3,500 Jobs, Inject Cash Into Siemens Venture

September 29, 2011, 6:31 AM EDT

By Diana ben-Aaron

(Updates with capital injection details in sixth paragraph.)

Sept. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Nokia Oyj will eliminate 3,500 jobs, shut a mobile-phone factory in Romania and inject 1 billion euros ($1.4 billion) with Siemens AG into their unprofitable network-equipment venture.

The closure of the plant in Cluj, which only began production in 2008, along with adjustments with suppliers will take out 2,200 positions, Nokia said today. The company will also reorganize its map business, cutting 1,300 jobs, and review the future of its handset plants in Finland, Hungary and Mexico.

Nokia shipments of low-end phones dropped 16 percent in the second quarter. Smartphone volume fell 34 percent.

The company is folding its maps business Navteq, acquired for $8.1 billion in 2008, into a new location and commerce software division that will help its handsets stand out from competitors. Nokia will shutter units in Bonn and Malvern, Pennsylvania as a result.

Nokia’s smartphone market share plummeted to 20.9 percent in the second quarter from 37.4 percent a year earlier, according to researcher Gartner Inc. Its overall handset market share declined to 22.8 percent from 30.3 percent in the second quarter of 2010.

Edited September 29, 2011 by lomatopo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I stopped by the mobile show at Queen Sirikit Center today, which runs through the weekend, and they had quite a large and busy Nokia display/sales area... at least as large as the Samsung one...although not quite as busy.

I didn't linger long, but there were a lot of customers there at least looking... Seemed they were advertising the 700 phone and the N9, I think...

As a Nokia smartphone owner, I don't know why anyone would buy a Symbian OS Nokia phone right now... But there seemed to be at least a fair share of Thais willing to do so for some reason or another.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

News reports saying Nokia is working on a new feature phone OS called Meltemi for emerging markets to replace the current S40 series OS.

Nokia is supposedly planning to offer Windows Phone 7 high end phones, lower-level smart phones running a limited Windows version called Tango, and the Meltemi OS for future feature phones.

Separately, I heard a Microsoft exec on a radio show this week suggesting that Nokia will be previewing some of their Windows Phone 7 hardware at an upcoming event in London in a month or so. Presumably he was referring to Nokia World 2011 in London scheduled for Oct. 26-27.

Nokia's bold new Meltemi OS will make feature phones smarter

September 29, 2011 | Devindra Hardawar

Not content to let its feature phone software stagnate, Nokia is apparently working on a new low-end mobile operating system called "Meltemi," which will allow the company to sell more capable phones in emerging markets. News of the Linux-based Meltemi, which is the Greek word for winds that blow across the Aegean see from the north during summer, was first reported by the Wall Street Journal.

For Nokia, Meltemi is a sign that the company isn't forgetting about low-end devices, a segment which represented about 47 percent of its device sales last quarter. It's also a strong hint that the company isn't willing to be entirely on another company's platform. Nokia recently abandoned its plans to develop the MeeGo operating system with Intel (though it is releasing a single MeeGo device for some reason, the N9) in exchange for adopting Microsoft's Windows Phone 7 platform.

Meltemi will allow Nokia to continue innovating with low-end feature phones — which is important, since consumers in emerging markets expect smartphone-like functionality from their feature phones, a source tells the WSJ. Developing a new OS will let Nokia offer those devices at cheaper prices than if they used Windows Phone 7, which requires beefier hardware and licensing fees to Microsoft. As the WSJ points out, Meltemi could be Nokia's equivalent of Samsung's Bada platform for low-end phones.

The new software will completely replace Nokia's S40 software in feature phones, according to the mobile site Boy Genius Report. "Nokia's vision is seemingly to build an operating system with capability that reaches well beyond "S40," but that can function on similar low-cost hardware," writes BGR's Zach Epstein. "This new platform will be fairly capable, but our understanding is that it will not be a full-fledged OS intended to compete with the likes of Android, iOS and Windows Phone."

Nokia will still develop inexpensive Windows Phone devices in some markets, BGR says. That will likely happen with Microsoft's recently announced "Tango" version of the OS, which offers a stripped down experience for low-end hardware.

Nokia has yet to confirm Meltemi's existence, but a spokesperson told BGR in a statement "our Mobile Phones team has a number of exciting projects in the works that will help connect the next billion consumers to the Internet."

http://venturebeat.c...ature-phone-os/

Edited September 30, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[lomatopo]

Separately, I heard a Microsoft exec on a radio show this week suggesting that Nokia will be previewing some of their Windows Phone 7 hardware at an upcoming event in London in a month or so. Presumably he was referring to Nokia World 2011 in London scheduled for Oct. 26-27.

A fairly senior Microsoft exec. was recently fired for gossiping about the new Nokia phones.

http://www.t3.com.au/2011/09/23/nokia-windows-phone-microsoft-exec-fired-for-discussing-handset/

Nokia Windows Phone: Microsoft exec fired for discussing handset

T3 Staff / News / Fri 23rd Sep 2011 11:18 am

Microsoft’s head of IE Mobile for Windows Phone has been fired for discussing Nokia’s next-gen Windows Phone handsets on Twitter. Joe Marini was relieved of his duties after posting a string of tweets which suggested that the new phone wasn’t quite the greatest thing Nokia has ever made.

Marini’s initial tweet read, “I just got a chance to try out one of the slickest looking #Nokia phones I have ever seen. Soon, you will too! #wp7.” Hardly controversial, but he followed it up by answering questions about the device.

“Overall I would say a solid 8 [out of 10]. Solid feel, good camera and responsive UI and nice little touches on the body construction,” he said. Not as bad, but his final tweet hardly inspires confidence. “Yeah, the camera was good, but I didn’t have optimal lighting. I’d like a larger screen too.”

That was enough for Microsoft to decide Marini could no longer work at Redmond. Will the Nokia Windows Phone be better than a “solid 8”? Tell us what you think on our Facebook and Twitter pages.

----

And I'm not sure Nokia needs another proprietary OS? Mango, Tango, Malteimi, MeeGo, Maemo, Symbian...honestly they seem to be completely out of control. Too many different messages for the market.

Although 6+ months old, here is a link to Elop's "burning platform" memo....

http://blogs.wsj.com/tech-europe/2011/02/09/full-text-nokia-ceo-stephen-elops-burning-platform-memo/

“There is a pertinent story about a man who was working on an oil platform in the North Sea. He woke up one night from a loud explosion, which suddenly set his entire oil platform on fire. In mere moments, he was surrounded by flames. Through the smoke and heat, he barely made his way out of the chaos to the platform’s edge. When he looked down over the edge, all he could see were the dark, cold, foreboding Atlantic waters.

As the fire approached him, the man had mere seconds to react. He could stand on the platform, and inevitably be consumed by the burning flames. Or, he could plunge 30 meters in to the freezing waters. The man was standing upon a “burning platform,” and he needed to make a choice.

He decided to jump. It was unexpected. In ordinary circumstances, the man would never consider plunging into icy waters. But these were not ordinary times – his platform was on fire. The man survived the fall and the waters. After he was rescued, he noted that a “burning platform” caused a radical change in his behaviour.

I guess Mr. Elop assumes Nokia will survive the jump? This ain't no plunge into the lake after a sauna!

My fav. quote from the memo....

The first iPhone shipped in 2007, and we still don’t have a product that is close to their experience. Android came on the scene just over 2 years ago, and this week they took our leadership position in smartphone volumes. Unbelievable.

Believe it.

Edited September 30, 2011 by lomatopo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That's an interesting story about the IE guy getting fired...though I can understand why given the corporate culture in which they operate and what he did/said... I wasn't aware of that thing previously, but the guy I heard on the radio surely was... It wasn't the same guy. The guy I heard on a half hour interview was Brandon Watson, Sr. Dir. of Windows Phone Apps, who deals with software developer relations.

He's the first half hour or so of this podcast...

http://twit.cachefly.net/ww0228.mp3

Nothing very controversial, but he was talking about the future and place of Windows Phone 7 in the marketplace, and as I recall, used some typically evasive language about telling folks to stay tuned for next month when there will be this exhibit in London by Nokia and he wouldn't be surprised if they unveiled some details about some new Windows Phone 7 model....something to that effect... But he didn't give any details himself of what might be shown....

As for the new feature phone OS, what would you have them do? There are still a lot of folks in less developed countries who want and buy cheaper feature phones...at least for the time being... And Windows Phone 7 OS has a minimum hardware specs standard that's way above feature phone status... So it would seem Nokia had to do something to stay relevant or else give up on the feature phone market, which probably would be ill-advised...

I don't know why they had to give it a new name, though.... The onslaught of all these different OSs does get confusing... But so does Eclair, Froyo, Gingerbread, Honeycomb, Ice Cream Sandwich, etc etc...

BTW, lately, I had looked and looked and looked...and finally settled on buying a new Sony-Ericsson Xperia Mini Pro from the U.S. Full slide-out QWERTY keyboard, which was important to me, Android Gingerbread 2.3, 3-inch Bravia screen, Snapdragon 1 Ghz processor, Wifi B/G/N and 850/900/2100 3G compatibility, unlike the Thai market 900/2100-only bands version. $270 on sale from Amazon with U.S. warranty.

I still love my Nokia E series phone that's now 4 years old. But it's time to move ahead for the future. It's funny too that just today, after I bought, I saw a blog from CyanogenMod saying they were going to support about 10 different Sony Ericsson Xperia models from 2011, including the Mini Pro, with their next firmware release.... Good timing...

[Gary A]

I was praising my Nokia E52 for its toughness, reliability and dependability. I have dropped it a few times with no apparent damage. Yesterday morning, I was going to check for messages and found my screen had a blob at the bottom and some vertical red lines.

In case it has further problems, I was looking for a replacement. As suspected, there are no NON touch screen high level smart phones available. The closest I could find was a Nokia E6 and even it has a partial touch screen.

I took the E52 to the local small phone shop and the technician told me the phone appears fine and just needs a new display. The cost of the new display and labor was 500 baht. He had to order the screen. He told me to come back in one week. I'll be quite happy if that fixes it. I would guess that replacing a touch screen display would be quite a bit more expensive. Fortunately I have an old Nokia 6500 slide for a backup.

[lomatopo]

I think everyone would agree that Nokia made great handsets. The fact that some are unwilling to purchase one of their newer models speaks to the heart of this thread.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think it's more a question of timing... Everything I'm hearing about the forthcoming Win Phone 7 Nokia phone(s) is pretty positive... and there seems to be a lot of sense the first model will be some version of the well reviewed, but dead-end MeeGo OS N9 model.

If I was willing to wait a year to let Nokia roll out its Win Phone 7 phones and get past any of the usual first-release bugs, I probably would have been happy to do that and stay with Nokia...

But I didn't want to wait for another year to upgrade my already four year old Nokia smartphone. And unfortunately, right now, Nokia doesn't have Win Phone 7 phones for sale....meaning they're temporarily out of that marketplace.

In the end, for me, it came down to choosing between a pretty well established and mainstream Android 2.3 Gingerbread OS, which I ended up choosing, vs. an emerging Win Phone 7.5 handset (the Dell Venue Pro). While I'm optimistic about the mobile phone future of Win Phone 7, I wanted to go for a sure thing right now (Android) vs. a bet on the future (Win Phone 7).

Next time around in a couple of years, depending on how they fare in the marketplace, I'd certainly expect to be looking seriously at Nokia and Win Phone 7....

Edited October 1, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[lomatopo]

an emerging Win Phone 7.5 handset (the Dell Venue Pro).

That's a decent phone for $300. You can get it for $200 if you buy a Dell PC.

http://www.dell.com/us/p/mobile-venue-pro/pd

Personally I do not like that form factor/design, slider/QWERTY.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Re the Dell Venue Pro, they have/are updating it to Windows Phone 7.5 Mango...so that's good... And it has wide 3G band compatibility, which I like and wanted... One kind of negative, which was a concern to me being here in BKK, was some complaints about the (lacking) loudness of the phone's audio...

Dell via their U.S. website is selling them new/direct for $299 as a standalone purchase, along with the discounted $199 offer you mentioned.... which only applies if you also spend at least $700 on a separate PC purchase with them.

For good caliber 3G capable phones with some version of QWERTY keyboard, which I absolutely wanted, the choices are pretty limited, especially if you take Nokia's on-the-way-out Symbian offerings out of the equation, like their E Series models and such...

Actually, originally, I found both the Sony Xperia Mini Pro via Amazon and the Dell Venue Pro from Dell both for $299.... But then Amazon ended up starting a sale on the Mini Pro at $269, which pushed me over the edge in the direction I was already leaning...

The Dell has a 4+ inch screen compared to 3 inches on the Xperia... But I also didn't want to feel like I was carrying around a brick in my pocket or bag...

Likewise, I absolutely didn't want to spend $500 to $600 on a new mobile phone, a la the Samsung Galaxy S II... Unfortunately, I think I'm going to have to end up spending that for my Thai wife, who doesn't share my personal philosophy about spending on mobile phones...

[Gary A]

I got my beloved Nokia E52 back from the shop today. It seems to work just fine. The cost to replace the display was 500 baht including labor. My wife complained that I paid too much because the other local shop is cheaper. I thought I got a bargain.

The guy at the phone shop says that is what happens when you drop a phone on the screen. I was going to buy a Nokia E6 to replace it but it appears that I saved about 11,000 baht. I'll keep the E52 until it totally dies and can't be repaired.

[lomatopo]

Apple Beats HTC as Nokia Customer Loyalty Has First Decline

October 05, 2011, 8:16 AM EDT

By Diana ben-Aaron

Oct. 5 (Bloomberg) -- IPhone users are most likely to buy their next handset again from Apple Inc. as Nokia Oyj’s customer loyalty dropped for the first time, a survey shows.

About 93 percent of iPhone owners in the U.S. and 88 percent in the U.K., Germany and France said they would probably or definitely go for another Apple handset, said Paul Brown, an analyst at Strategy Analytics, citing a poll. Nokia’s brand loyalty was 63 percent in Europe, compared with 74 percent a year earlier, while only one in two Nokia users in the U.S. plans to buy the next handset from the Finnish manufacturer.

“A lackluster portfolio of user-friendly touchscreen devices is one of the key reasons for this decline,” Brown said in an interview. “By creating a powerful brand image, along with a compelling user experience, Apple has managed to create a high level of brand loyalty amongst existing users.”

more...

[MJo]

Let's bump this one on the top with the recent news on good sales of Nokia's first windows phone.

Nokia Says Pre-Orders for Lumia 800 Higher Than Any Previous Phone

European media also reports that Lumia 800 was sold out in London in an hour with people queuing up.

For those who doubted Nokia in north america there is also reports around that deal with AT&T is in final stage for signing. Although not yet picked up by main media outlets.

So promising start, what are your thoughts ?

[lomatopo]

The Q3 numbers were not as bad as many expected but still pretty dismal: 71 million (Euros) loss, revenue down.

The "leaked" AT&T deal I suspect involves serious discounting, generous returns and massive incentives so Nokia will likely lose money of that deal. And they'll have to generate end-user demand through the channel, which can be costly and take a lot of time.

There are still a lot of loyal customers, for Nokia and Microsoft, so would expect limited units to sell through fairly quickly. The Lumia 800 looks OK in the demo videos, seems overpriced vs. the competition?

There may be enough leftover, at the low-end and in emerging markets, for Microsoft and Nokia to muddle along in third place? With the developer community you have the cart/horse standoff; not enough end-user demand for apps. The share price is up from the Sep. low., nice return for those here who may have invested.

[FarangBuddha]

The Q3 numbers were not as bad as many expected but still pretty dismal: 71 million (Euros) loss, revenue down.

The "leaked" AT&T deal I suspect involves serious discounting, generous returns and massive incentives so Nokia will likely lose money of that deal. And they'll have to generate end-user demand through the channel, which can be costly and take a lot of time.

There are still a lot of loyal customers, for Nokia and Microsoft, so would expect limited units to sell through fairly quickly. The Lumia 800 looks OK in the demo videos, seems overpriced vs. the competition?

There may be enough leftover, at the low-end and in emerging markets, for Microsoft and Nokia to muddle along in third place? With the developer community you have the cart/horse standoff; not enough end-user demand for apps. The share price is up from the Sep. low., nice return for those here who may have invested.

Can anyone say "value trap."

[MJo]

Not sure on the AT&T deal, i think it is a good thing. That's how iPhone started, became a the thing via US operator sales. What i'm more surprised is that it sells so well in Europe, where every analyst and media outlet has been shouting their dead and no one will buy their WP's for almost a year now. Maybe the consumers still know better when they get the devices in their own hands and try them out.

I haven't checked the Lumia yet but will do so shortly. Although not gonna buy it, will wait for the next version and qwerty key pads.

[nikster]

The Q3 numbers were not as bad as many expected but still pretty dismal: 71 million (Euros) loss, revenue down.

The "leaked" AT&T deal I suspect involves serious discounting, generous returns and massive incentives so Nokia will likely lose money of that deal. And they'll have to generate end-user demand through the channel, which can be costly and take a lot of time.

There are still a lot of loyal customers, for Nokia and Microsoft, so would expect limited units to sell through fairly quickly. The Lumia 800 looks OK in the demo videos, seems overpriced vs. the competition?

I think Android is just going to kill WP.

For Nokia I agree, there is still positive sentiment. Their reputation was built up over decades. For Microsoft, I don't think so - nobody is choosing Microsoft as their operating system - it's just what the computer comes with. The brand is one of the most widely recognized in the world, but it's not a brand that has built up a reputation for quality - if anything, the contrary.

I think Microsoft made a big mistake calling their new mobile OS "Windows Phone" - because in the post-PC world, Windows is the last thing that people want. The complications, the bugs, etc... Windows is synonymous for the PC era, and the post-PC era is the antidote to it. I don't think Windows will go away anytime soon, but I also don't think there's a positive brand value attached to it, at least not outside of PCs.

When I look at the latest Outlook on my VDI work PC, I just have to wonder - what the hell is wrong with that company? Day to day, I need two buttons in my email (new mail, and check messages). Yet Outlook has an array of about 500 (and that's no exaggeration) up there in the "function bands". I never use any of them - and I am pretty sure that I am with 99% of all users in not knowing what any of these things do or why I would want them there. It's just grotesque.

Edited November 19, 2011 by nikster

[Gary A]

The Q3 numbers were not as bad as many expected but still pretty dismal: 71 million (Euros) loss, revenue down.

The "leaked" AT&T deal I suspect involves serious discounting, generous returns and massive incentives so Nokia will likely lose money of that deal. And they'll have to generate end-user demand through the channel, which can be costly and take a lot of time.

There are still a lot of loyal customers, for Nokia and Microsoft, so would expect limited units to sell through fairly quickly. The Lumia 800 looks OK in the demo videos, seems overpriced vs. the competition?

I think Android is just going to kill WP.

For Nokia I agree, there is still positive sentiment. Their reputation was built up over decades. For Microsoft, I don't think so - nobody is choosing Microsoft as their operating system - it's just what the computer comes with. The brand is one of the most widely recognized in the world, but it's not a brand that has built up a reputation for quality - if anything, the contrary.

I think Microsoft made a big mistake calling their new mobile OS "Windows Phone" - because in the post-PC world, Windows is the last thing that people want. The complications, the bugs, etc... Windows is synonymous for the PC era, and the post-PC era is the antidote to it. I don't think Windows will go away anytime soon, but I also don't think there's a positive brand value attached to it, at least not outside of PCs.

When I look at the latest Outlook on my VDI work PC, I just have to wonder - what the hell is wrong with that company? Day to day, I need two buttons in my email (new mail, and check messages). Yet Outlook has an array of about 500 (and that's no exaggeration) up there in the "function bands". I never use any of them - and I am pretty sure that I am with 99% of all users in not knowing what any of these things do or why I would want them there. It's just grotesque.

I agree with the Windows Outlook assessment. My Win 7 Ultimate has the whole Outlook package but it simply has TOO much crap with it. I use Hotmail for junk and Gmail for serious email. I use their standard emails and am happy with that. I use the WebMail Notifier with Firefox and it works great.

[lennois]

You ever used WP7.5 nikster?

Way slicker and a much better user experience than android imo. Nokia lumia 800 is sex in a phone imo and it's only the beginning. Right now I'd say WP7.5 is a far better experience for the non-geek phone owners than android - a lot just don't know it yet (nearly all the reviews I read say this as well.) This is changing with the nokia lumia push tho - a lot of friends in UK are suddenly becoming interested in it, and user satisfaction is very high with WP devices once tried.

Nokia/WP ain't going anywhere. Wait until your comp, tablet and phone are all running WP8. Gonna be a no-brainer for a lot of people.

I agree general sentiment for ms might not be amazing. Mine hasn't exactly been great in the past. I do think windows 7 is a very good os tho and I think WP7.5 is fantastic.

[MJo]

Agree MS as brand is not that popular but yet people are using it as the alternatives are Mac which is closed and expensive and linux where average user don't have the interest to tweak to get it running proper. PC's would not come with MS out of the box if there would be real alternatives around.

For phones WP is nothing like the old ones and imo it shows with the good sales reports now when Lumia is out. Nokia's superior navigation is already there and will get better with the next WP versions where Nokia's own work with WP is starting to show. And that's the key, can they make their WP phones different than the others. My guess is yes if we give them a year as Nokia's hardware is still very good and you when you add their navigation and good cameras etc you might have a winning combination again.

What comes to outlook 99% of people i know use it for corporate email not to pull pop mail from google or hotmail. And for that it is still the best i've seen. Agree though that sync with gmail etc it's not that great. There's free alternatives, buggy mozilla and some others which are still more simple.

And then there is tablets, Nokia is entering in the market later this year and for those 99% who use Windows in their pc's W8 tablet makes more sense than having Windows PC, Android phone and iPad. Key here for me is again ability to sync etc with all your devices. Now available from Apple with a price but W8 will change that when you have it in your PC, Tablet and in your phone. Easy solution for the masses and my guess is that big part of the mass will go for it.

[lomatopo]

Nokia happy with Lumia 800 pre-orders in the UK, carriers less impressed

Nokia's Lumia 800 made its world debut yesterday in the UK, carrying with it a heavy burden of expectation from Nokia that it would secure the future of the company. With the first sales now complete, UK spokesperson Ray Haddow said that Nokia's "very positive about the launch of the Lumia 800," and that "the public were in store in abundance today." However, carrier reaction was mixed, with insiders telling the Financial Times that pre-orders had fallen well below Apple's iPhone 4S launch and even lagged behind recent high-end Android handsets. Network operator Orange was slightly more positive, saying that it had been the most successful Nokia launch ever, though noting that half of those ordering had taken up the offer of a free Xbox 360 with the 18- and 24-month contracts.

Gartner: Windows Phone market share crashes

Summary: Market share for Windows Phone collapse from 2.7% in Q3 ‘10 to 1.5% in Q3 ‘11.

According to data released by Gartner, the market share for Microsoft’s Windows Phone handsets has crashed dramatically over the past twelve months.

In a period where Gartner claims that Android saw its market share increase from 25.3% during the third quarter of 2010 to 52.5% for the last quarter, Microsoft saw the market share of Windows Phone collapse from an already precarious 2.7% to a feeble 1.5%. Sales over the period fell from 2.2 million to 1.7 million.

AT&T is already selling Windows Phones from Samsung and HTC. They will launch the HTC Titan next week. Obviously coming to market three years late is not a recognized path to success.

In some ways Nokia's brand may work against them; many view the brand as old, out-of-date. Having a good camera and navigation (honestly not sure very many people use a smartphone for navigation as most have dedicated GPS Nav. systems already) may not be enough?

Edited November 19, 2011 by lomatopo

[lennois]

I'm not surprised WP numbers are poor with manufacturers showing little interest so far. Can barely even find a WP phone in Thailand. Will become more interesting in the following years with Nokia's reach. A lot of my friends are only just becoming aware of WP in the UK thanks to Nokia's aggressive marketing of the lumia (and they are liking what they see.) It's not surprising pre-orders aren't matching iphones - takes a while to get the ball rolling, and it's really only just started with Nokia.

Not sure about others but I use my phone for nav all the time. Been a life saver up here in Chiang Mai on my scooter. Offline maps also crucial for me for travel. It's not only nav and camera with nokia anyway - lumia is way more elegant than anything i've seen from the rest except for apple. And of course will be interested to see how Nokia differentiates the software going forward.

Edited November 19, 2011 by lennois

[MJo]

Yep, it takes time. Remember Android market share on early versions. It takes two to three years and i looks like WP is half way there. WP8 will be par with the rest is my prediction. Same could be said for iPhone, what was the market share say one month after launch of first iPhone? Also to be remembered that Nokia caters to all market segments, not only one as Apple or few as HTC (just for the record i'm using HTC android phone at the moment and love it).

With that in mind it is no surprise orders were behind new iPhone but still best Nokia start so far so it is promising good. One has to remember they compare with the hit's Nokia had in the past so this could well be the start of new rise of Nokia. Certainly media is not all doom for them at the moment. Totally different from time when this thread was started. At the time majority was saying they will die and be wiped off the market. Well time will tell.

For navi it is the one most useful feature in the phone for me. Yes i have Garmin in my car but in my travels i don't carry it with me. Instead i use phone navi daily when out of bangkok and access to my car.

[wellred]

I had a play with the 800 today was quite impressed. They are late to the game but I think they have the foundation for a great OS in 7.5. It really struck me as fresh the same way as iphone first did. Whether they can get devs interested in them to start producing some decent apps is another matter.

[MJo]

I had a play with the 800 today was quite impressed. They are late to the game but I think they have the foundation for a great OS in 7.5. It really struck me as fresh the same way as iphone first did. Whether they can get devs interested in them to start producing some decent apps is another matter.

It's picking up with Dev's, more interest already than in Blackberry.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/Windows-Phone-Developer-Interest-Suggests-Early-Nokia-Benefit-374947/

http://www.slashgear.com/windows-phone-overtakes-rim-in-developer-interest-14195005/

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2011/11/14/nokia_partnership_sparks_developer_interest_in_windows_phone