Outcome Of Probe On Chiang Mai Tourist And Thai Guide Deaths‏

[SunsetT]

I was passing through Chiang Mai at this time on a visa run, and randomly picked an overnight hotel.

'It could have been me!'

What can you do to protect yourself?

Seems to be wrong or excess pesticides/chemicals being used in bedrooms.

So...................................

I would say that good advice, from Gov. travel advice websites especially, to anyone staying in hotels or guesthouses in Thailand, and, of course, especially in Chiang Mai, would be, that if you become ill for no apparent reason, sickness and diarrhea excepted, though it may be the last thing you feel like, get out of that room, and immediately change hotels/guest houses. Just walk out and get a tuk tuk/taxi. They get commission so they will gladly take u somewhere else. It may be a dump but you'll stay alive! Go back for your stuff next day.

Edited August 16, 2011 by SunsetT

[SunsetT]

See above........................

Edited August 16, 2011 by SunsetT

[overhaul38]

I think they committed suicide to embarrass the gov. and should be punished.

I say again....There is no insurance and accountability...you travel in Thailand at your own risk.

Edited August 16, 2011 by overhaul38

[rethumper]

somewhat related>bkk apartment monthly"fogs"fumigates both inside & outside>once i overslept,opened door to a cloud of pestiside>trapped in apt untill fog cleared>had 3-4 days of painful breathing,headache& internal pain>wonder if "fogging"is a common practice

[tropiccapricorn]

Father of New Zealand victim advises against travel to Thailand

Wellington - The father of a young New Zealand woman who died from toxic chemical poisoning in a Thailand hotel welcomed Tuesday moves to tighten rules on spraying pesticides in tourist areas but said he would not advise others to travel there.

"Unless you are an intrepid traveller seeking a bit of adventure steer clear of the whole place altogether," Richard Carter, of Auckland, told Radio New Zealand. "I won't be going there.

I am bored with this man's bleatings against the country, part of his grief I suppose, but his website Thai Tragedies really is pathetic.

Accept the deaths were tragic; as are all deaths, road accidents etc that impact upon families/friends; his bitter 'steer clear of the whole place altogether' -won't impact on the millions of tourists each year.

and above all, it was not your daughter

when one gets the idea that facts are hidden, distraction from evidence to probably protect some local matador

inclusive a hotel which might be sued (if that is at all possible in LOS)

then the evidence will remain wishy washy, after all it is sill TRT (thai ruk thai)

[FOODLOVER]

Father of New Zealand victim advises against travel to Thailand

Wellington - The father of a young New Zealand woman who died from toxic chemical poisoning in a Thailand hotel welcomed Tuesday moves to tighten rules on spraying pesticides in tourist areas but said he would not advise others to travel there.

"Unless you are an intrepid traveller seeking a bit of adventure steer clear of the whole place altogether," Richard Carter, of Auckland, told Radio New Zealand. "I won't be going there.

I am bored with this man's bleatings against the country, part of his grief I suppose, but his website Thai Tragedies really is pathetic.

Accept the deaths were tragic; as are all deaths, road accidents etc that impact upon families/friends; his bitter 'steer clear of the whole place altogether' -won't impact on the millions of tourists each year.

Maybe you would not be so bored if your children died and no one is willing to put their ass on the line to find the truth. People should be warned and the Hotel should be closed indefinitely until the chemical is identified. In my opinion.

[saroq]

Father of New Zealand victim advises against travel to Thailand

Wellington - The father of a young New Zealand woman who died from toxic chemical poisoning in a Thailand hotel welcomed Tuesday moves to tighten rules on spraying pesticides in tourist areas but said he would not advise others to travel there.

"Unless you are an intrepid traveller seeking a bit of adventure steer clear of the whole place altogether," Richard Carter, of Auckland, told Radio New Zealand. "I won't be going there.

I am bored with this man's bleatings against the country, part of his grief I suppose, but his website Thai Tragedies really is pathetic.

Accept the deaths were tragic; as are all deaths, road accidents etc that impact upon families/friends; his bitter 'steer clear of the whole place altogether' -won't impact on the millions of tourists each year.

What a moronic comment.

[lovetotravel]

I find it very strange how they can conclude that toxins were involved when:

1. No significant residues were found in the bodies (chemical analysis).

2. No residues of any significance were found in the hotels, or apparently used in the hotels involved.

3. No obvious signs of toxin damage or symptoms were found on the bodies (morphological or structural damage).

Of course, there were complications in collecting all this evidence but without at least one of these lines of evidence, they cannot possibly conclude that toxins were involved.

I think the Thai authorities felt they just had to sound like they had pinpointed a cause to avoid an embarrassing lack of conclusion. It sounds better to conclude that 'poisoning was probably involved' even without a shred of suitable evidence, than 'we don't know'. It's just a face-saving conclusion.

Weren't there witnesses who said the hotel wiped everything down immediately???? Cleaned all the rooms and ACs?

So what point are u trying to make? Cleaning the rooms doesn't provide any positive evidence that there were toxins there that killed the guests in the first place.

Also the word 'toxins' could mean anything from pesticides used in the hotel (which most people assume the Thai authorities are referring to), to poisons in food and drink, swimming pool, tap water, air conditioners or almost anywhere that were common to the deceased.

I still find it strange that the Thai authorities have not said why they think toxins were involved and surprised why the Western media and the relatives are not asking the same question. I guess they think it is the only possible explanation or the only believable one, based on logic rather than evidence.

I'll try to find the article that stated the hotel did an EXTENSIVE cleanup of the rooms. Cleaned the ACs, the walls, everything. Not a normal cleaning you do after a guest checks out. So when the authorities showed up to investigate, it was too late. And there's a rumor the hotel was tipped off as to when the inspectors were going to show up. Not unusual here in Thailand.

[Briggsy]

I find it very strange how they can conclude that toxins were involved when:

1. No significant residues were found in the bodies (chemical analysis).

2. No residues of any significance were found in the hotels, or apparently used in the hotels involved.

3. No obvious signs of toxin damage or symptoms were found on the bodies (morphological or structural damage).

Of course, there were complications in collecting all this evidence but without at least one of these lines of evidence, they cannot possibly conclude that toxins were involved.

I think the Thai authorities felt they just had to sound like they had pinpointed a cause to avoid an embarrassing lack of conclusion. It sounds better to conclude that 'poisoning was probably involved' even without a shred of suitable evidence, than 'we don't know'. It's just a face-saving conclusion.

Weren't there witnesses who said the hotel wiped everything down immediately???? Cleaned all the rooms and ACs?

So what point are u trying to make? Cleaning the rooms doesn't provide any positive evidence that there were toxins there that killed the guests in the first place.

Also the word 'toxins' could mean anything from pesticides used in the hotel (which most people assume the Thai authorities are referring to), to poisons in food and drink, swimming pool, tap water, air conditioners or almost anywhere that were common to the deceased.

I still find it strange that the Thai authorities have not said why they think toxins were involved and surprised why the Western media and the relatives are not asking the same question. I guess they think it is the only possible explanation or the only believable one, based on logic rather than evidence.

I'll try to find the article that stated the hotel did an EXTENSIVE cleanup of the rooms. Cleaned the ACs, the walls, everything. Not a normal cleaning you do after a guest checks out. So when the authorities showed up to investigate, it was too late. And there's a rumor the hotel was tipped off as to when the inspectors were going to show up. Not unusual here in Thailand.

Actually the hotel went even further and completely gutted the whole floor, ripping out all the furniture. All evidence was thus destroyed on that floor at least.

[brianb1944]

Another whitewash. Surprise. Surprise

My thought exactly, a very long winded set of documents that basically say, "it wasnt Thailands fault but we dont know whose fault it was'

[Chopperboy]

I seem to recall reading on another thread that they suspected the pesticide for killing bed bugs; perhaps the person who sprayed used too much and poisoned the guests. Of course the official finding will be the white-washed version as they wouldn't want the hotel to look bad or be liable so they are not going to admit to any wrong doing.

If it was pesticide how come the person spraying it wasn't killed? - they rarely seem to wear masks and even then not proper ones. They would have come in contact with it more than anyone else. It always sounded like poisoning, but I doubt bed bug spray.

[Tanaka]

So no one is going to be held accountable for these deaths? WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

The hotel owner is a "prominent" member of CM society. What did you expect? That Thai police should bite a hand that feeds them?

[jfchandler]

Obviously, those folks picked the wrong hotel to die in... Someone should have told them who was in charge there...

[ginjag]

I think they committed suicide to embarrass the gov. and should be punished.

I say again....There is no insurance and accountability...you travel in Thailand at your own risk.

This has to be the one of the most insensitive comments ever. The hub of comments.

[jfchandler]

I think Overhaul was being sarcastic... appropriately so... under the circumstances...

Especially considering how all kinds of farang deaths with suspicious circumstances routinely get classified as suicides by Thai police...

In trying to explain away the hotel deaths previously, the local authorities up there threw almost every conceivable explanation at the wall short of saying the deaths were all suicides... Frankly, it surprises me the locals didn't go down that road as well somewhere along the way.

[webfact]

Report blames chemicals, diseases, infections for death of tourists

By The Nation

Unidentified chemicals, coronary heart diseases, and infections have been blamed for the mysterious deaths of six foreign tourists and a Thai tour guide at hotels in Chiang Mai, an investigation has concluded.

The deaths came to international attention earlier this year. Since then, Thai authorities have sought help from the World Health Organisation (WHO) in determining the causes of the deaths.

The investigation panel included representatives from Thailand's Communicable Disease Control Office 10, experts from the Chiang Mai University's Faculty of Medicine, the Public Health Ministry's Epidemiology Bureau, and WHO.

Specimens from the seven bodies were collected and sent to laboratories in the United States and Japan for analysis.

The lab tests showed that a 33-year-old American tourist and her Canadian friend died due to a certain chemical, which could not be identified. Their deaths were not related to the other cases.

A 25-year-old French tourist, lab tests suggested, might have caught a fatal infection before arriving in Chiang Mai.

Regarding a 23-year-old New Zealander and a 47-year-old Thai tour guide found dead at a hotel in Chiang Mai's downtown area, their sudden deaths were likely due to a chemical. However, the tests could not determine whether they had inhaled or ingested the chemical through their mouths.

The deaths of a British couple were due to coronary heart diseases, lab tests suggested.

Chiang Mai Governor ML Panadda Diskul yesterday said he had already instructed relevant authorities to be strict about sanitary standards.

"Hotels must submit samples of chemicals they use at their facilities to authorities for tests on a monthly basis," he said.

Thai Hotel (Upper North) Association president Phunat Thanalaopanich said only unauthorised hotels used substandard chemicals.

To boost tourists' confidence in Chiang Mai hotels, the association has already conducted training programmes to educate hotels about how to use chemicals safely and properly.

-- The Nation 2011-08-18

[slapout]

We do not know what specifically caused these deaths but we have alerted the proper authorities about sanitation, chemical testing, etc. and we have already trained the hotels in proper use of chemicals. I will certainly feel better today as I observe the city workers watering the flowers and watering the streets, during the thunderstorm.

[jfchandler]

The deaths of a British couple were due to coronary heart diseases, lab tests suggested.

Another example of crappy, flawed reporting by The Nation... The above excerpt from their article is simply wrong and is not what the investigation report found regarding the British couple...

Yes, the report found that the couple had coronary blockages, not so surprising considering they were elderly... But it didn't attribute those as their cause of death, particularly given that they died at the same time as each other, and in the same hotel where other guests had died a short time before apparently from some toxin or chemical agent, the report said...

Rather, the report says re the British couple:

There is evidence of 40-80% occlusion in three coronary arteries in the man, and 30-60% occlusion in the coronary arteries of the woman, which might suggest death caused by a cardiac event or arrest.

It is not unusual for older people to die from cardiac arrest, however, it is uncommon for a couple to die of this cause at the same place and at around the same time.

As they also stayed at Hotel "C" albeit on a different floor to that of the women in Event 3, the possibility that the cause of this event is related to Event 3 cannot be excluded.

Then, after providing that information in the detail section of the report.... it makes the following finding in the conclusion section re the British couple:

4. Event 4: this event, involving the older English couple, is possibly related to Event 3 [which the report attributed to "exposure to some toxic chemical, pesticide or gas"] as they occurred in the same hotel but again laboratories could not establish a direct link or the specific cause.

That's hardly saying the underlying cause of the British couple's death was due to their coronary issues.Shame on The Nation for such shoddy reporting.

But their contribution does help perpetuate the false belief Thai authorities would like to have spread that these deaths were not caused by some chemical or toxic elements where these people were staying... when with the exception of the one French woman who apparently had a prior viral infestion...they clearly were.

The above quotes were from the final investigation update document... The accompanying FAQ document summarizes the findings as follows:

In summary, the investigation found that one person [the French woman] likely died of a virus. Three people likely died of exposure to pesticides. And the investigation could not fully determine the cause of death for two people [the British couple]. (see specific case findings in Update 5).

Edited August 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[RickBradford]

Before the investigation can be regarded as complete in any way, there needs to be an interrogation of the hotels to see if they ordered any pesticide activity; questions asked of shops allowed to sell pesticides, and so on.

In other words, standard investigation into all angles of these tragedies, not just the forensic.

[Lizard2010]

The owner of the Hotel chain the Empress, has taken The Downtown hotel off the website.

We will never know what happened.

The family's of the people involved will have to live with not knowing what happened.

I guess we was lucky, we were at the hotel when the Thai guide died.

We were on the same floor, but behind the lift.

We had our window opened as much as we could to air the room our.

Maybe it was the side facing the night bazaar that had the problems.

We have changed our accommodation booking to another place.

Not game to go back as we could still be at risk of getting sick.

[weary]

Father of New Zealand victim advises against travel to Thailand

Wellington - The father of a young New Zealand woman who died from toxic chemical poisoning in a Thailand hotel welcomed Tuesday moves to tighten rules on spraying pesticides in tourist areas but said he would not advise others to travel there.

"Unless you are an intrepid traveller seeking a bit of adventure steer clear of the whole place altogether," Richard Carter, of Auckland, told Radio New Zealand. "I won't be going there.

I am bored with this man's bleatings against the country, part of his grief I suppose, but his website Thai Tragedies really is pathetic.

Accept the deaths were tragic; as are all deaths, road accidents etc that impact upon families/friends; his bitter 'steer clear of the whole place altogether' -won't impact on the millions of tourists each year.

Your conclusion is correct.

The rest of your post shows you up to be completely lacking in empathy. There are only two options I can see, either you have no children, or, you are somehow incapable of understanding how much normal people love their offspring and how devastating it is to lose a child.

[weary]

Before the investigation can be regarded as complete in any way, there needs to be an interrogation of the hotels to see if they ordered any pesticide activity; questions asked of shops allowed to sell pesticides, and so on.

In other words, standard investigation into all angles of these tragedies, not just the forensic.

Surely you are not quite serious as that would involve asking uncomfortable questions, and the risk of annoying a bigwig.

[RickBradford]

Before the investigation can be regarded as complete in any way, there needs to be an interrogation of the hotels to see if they ordered any pesticide activity; questions asked of shops allowed to sell pesticides, and so on.

In other words, standard investigation into all angles of these tragedies, not just the forensic.

Surely you are not quite serious as that would involve asking uncomfortable questions, and the risk of annoying a bigwig.

I was serious in suggesting that's what should be done, but not seriously suggesting it will be done.

[Yme]

This article takes a different approach to the report and the website also has all of the documents released by the Thais. He says it's unusual for such a barrage of documents from government departments to be in English and also sent to journalists and bloggers. I can't disagree with his point though that if there was no chemical to blame why is the government announcing a whole bunch of new laws and procedures relating to chemical use?

Should Chiang Mai also act to protect Northern Thailand tourists from a tsunami?

Why would the Thais admit they mishandled the pathology samples?

Improper handling of pathology samples and limited cooperation by relatives are blamed by Thailand authorities for scientists on four continents being unable to determine a causative agent or a common factor linking the deaths of five tourists and a Thai tourist guide in the Northern City of Chiang Mai earlier this year.

After five months of investigation and thousands of laboratory tests the investigative panel formed to probe the Chiang Mai tourist death cluster yesterday handed down a report that raises more questions than it answers, while at the same time announcing a raft of new initiatives to protect the region and country's precious tourism industry from dangers that it says weren't responsible for the deaths of tourists in Chiang Mai earlier this year.

"Certain tests also require that samples be taken by a particular method and stored and transported in special containers. This was not possible because the need for testing for these toxic causes were not foreseen at the time of death."

"Some relatives also did not want an autopsy to be performed, consequently biological samples were limited and in most cases were insufficient for the large number of tests that had to be considered and undertaken.

And then a New Zealand toxicology expert says:

In the wake of the report being delivered, Dr Reeve said he is still not surprised the investigation failed to identify the causative agent, though he is somewhat bewildered by the statement the pathology samples were not handled correctly and doesn't know what agent Thai authorities think they might have missed, or what special handling requirements they are referring to.

"If you don't know what you are looking for in the first place, even with modern toxicology screening equipment able to conduct 230 screens at a time, it can be very difficult to find a causative agent. Personally I don't believe a pesticide is involved and I still wouldn't rule out a viral cause, as it still fits the the symptoms from what I know of them.

"I can't think of a single pesticide available in New Zealand that could cause death unless deliberately consumed and the consumer being aware of it from the taste or smell, with the only chemical readily coming to mind which suits the symptoms being ethylene glycol, which has often been used in wine and other alcoholic drinks.

Chiang Mai tourist death probe finds no common link – PR campaign launched to protect tourism industry

Edited August 19, 2011 by Yme

[jfchandler]

Interesting... The Downtown Inn seems to have been removed from the corporate website...

This Internet archive web site allows one to go back and view web pages as they existed at various past points in time... http://wayback.archive.org/web/

Empress Hotels June 2009

Empress Hotels today

http://www.empresshotels.com/

Downtown Inn June 2009

Downtown Inn today

dead link

http://www.empressho...wntown_inn.html

The Downtown Inn now seems to have its own separate web site as follows:

http://downtowninnchiangmai.com/

The Internet archives web site mentioned above shows no prior version of the above website, suggesting perhaps that it's been newly created.

Edited August 19, 2011 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

There's also been a Lonely Planet forum thread on the same subject:

Edited August 19, 2011 by sbk
sorry- no links to outside forums allowed

[Curt1591]

It's gone:

[jerrysteve]

I am suprised the Embassies do not Add Food Poisoning to their Travel Warnings! After all, their perspective countries wouldn't want to have

there taxpaying citizens croak on them...

[jerrysteve]

As time goes by it like Thailand will keep losing their charm as a Tourist Ho t Spot. And in the End, Thailand will blame others is usualy the r

Case; Failure to Take Responsibility for Anthing; What a mindset!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[puck2]

Like Murdoch, demolish the relicts of a crime ...., before it is too late