Thai Divorcing A Thai

[confusedthaiguy]

As my name implies, I'm a confused thai that has recently repatriated so I figure this might be a place to ask for some advice.

The nuts and bolts of it are this:

Married for 13 years with 2 great boys. One in grade school and one in kindi.

Both myself, wife and oldest kid are Thai nationals. Youngest is dual citizen.

I put the oldest in a reputable international school and paid an arm an leg for it last year. I prepaid this term with reciepts and bank transfer documentation for everything.

I had enough of the woman for reasons I'd rather not discuss. Lets just say her character was spotless from a mothering standpoint but really was lacking in everything else .

Tried to talk and convince her to joint counciling but she wasn't interested.

I wanted a non-contested divorce and had my lawyer draft up and agreement. Joint custody, kids live with her in the house, house gets transfered to the kids when they reach of age, car gets transfered to her after the lease is up, and 50K a month for expenses (12k + inflation per kid per month till both are 18). She wanted more. (House now, car now, and 100 a month). She works at her families business. I work for a multinational company and earn over 300K a month.

Seperated now for a few months and I'm still sending 100k THB a month for support. I have started dating again but still call the kids weekly and see them every other week. Attempts by my folks (biological grandparents to the kids) to contact their grandchildren are futile (no answer).

She is living in the house that I continue to pay for, driving the car that I am also continuing to pay for (+ she changed the locks to the house)

I called the Intl school a few days ago so they would be aware that there are family issues and to pay extra attention to the boy.I found out that 2 days after I moved out she went to the Intl School, withdrew our son from it without my knowledge, and took the refund for both the term fee and registration fee (a few hundred K) and enrolled him in a Thai school (the kid has never studied Thai) .

I've been consulting my lawyer and he believes it's considered fraud and criminal and therefore also grounds for divorce. I tried to talk some sense into her and gave her the option to settle and agree on the divorce and she quite crudely told me it was my fault that I moved out and she has the kids best interest in mind. Everything she has done is because of me. She also must be getting weird legal advice from her brother (who graduated law school over 10 yrs ago but has no steady employment) because she threatened that I would loose everything in court.

Consulting my parents (who both have law degrees and one is a practicing adjudicator), they recommend that as much as it hurts me and them to say it in fear of alienating my kids, time to put the carrot away and use the stick. Cut the support to 30K a month, and let her approach me with an offer.

I dont believe its in the best interest of the kids that this gets dragged to court but I'm running out of options. I'd rather this not get ugly and I'd prefer joint custody as I believe the kids are better having both parents in their lives. Does anyone have any other recommendations?

Since we both agree to a divorce (well she kinda does as she doesnt want me back) but cannot agree on the terms, can I go to court and have them rule the judgement without going into the cause of divorce?

[Mario2008]

You can get a divorce at the amphur, if both agree. Than there is no need to state a reason for the divorce. If you don't agree, you can only get a divorce through the court, based on one of the reasons mentioned in the law. So you would have to state a reason.

Upon divorce you can enter any agreement you come to, regarding financila support, division of property and the chldren. If you don't make an agreement and there is no prnuptial agreement you simply split all that is gained during the marriage (that includes debts) and that is it. All one had before the mariage is left out and there is no monthly support requirement. Regarding the children one will have automatically shared custody, only if one of the parents is a danger to the children will a parent get sole costudy.

There is a requirement to pay child support. The ammount set by a Thai court is between 3,000 and 6,000 baht a month per child, with the parents sharing the cost for education and health care.

More on Thai family law and divorce here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/313877-thai-family-law/

[confusedthaiguy]

I forgot to add. The agreement I proposed also has me paying for all tuition fees and healthcare for the 2 boys until they finish high school. I would still do so regardless unless i loose total custody of the kids and they changed their last name. I also didn't mention to her that I had also aready set up a insurance fund which would pay for the kids college education.

[sbk]

Go to Family Court, its the best and most fair way. Many other posters have stated their experiences there and say they have found the Family Court to be very fair.

[confusedthaiguy]

Go to Family Court, its the best and most fair way. Many other posters have stated their experiences there and say they have found the Family Court to be very fair.

Thanks for the advice. The question is though with what grounds? To use my lawyer's tatic is to go to criminal court first and charge her with fraud/theft and then use that as grounds for divorce in family court. Kinda harsh.

[ludditeman]

Cut the support to 10k a month.

Stop paying for the car and house.

That is double what the court will award, so you will still be seen as generous by the court, and it will really force her settle in a more amicable way.

[MikeyIdea]

A few things here;

Thai family and juvenile courts are not ugly Sorry for the stupid joke but what I mean is that Thailand is not a country where the family and juvenile court system works in a way so that issues easily gets ugly. That's mainly America and a few other countries. Thai law doesn't support reasons for things to get ugly like e.g., American law does...

By all means, I would recommend you to use the court to help you and they will. They are not interested in the reasons for why relationships go to bits, they are interested in 1) assuring that the child gets a good future regardless of if the parents can't live together or not 2) completing the divorce. They will work to try to clear both these points via negotiation.

I bet that if you do take this to court, then you will never see a judge. It will be cleared in the negotiating session that the court officer holds. There is NO benefit for the mother to push this to a session in front of the judge, she would be the one losing out. On the other hand, you have much to win by pushing this in front of the judge (compared to what you currently offer) so note that both the court officer and especially your lawyer will want you to agree before this goes have to go up in front if the judges. Don't fall for that!

Questions

"She is living in the house that I continue to pay for" - Who owns the house and was it bought while you two were married?

"driving the car that I am also continuing to pay for" - Who owns the car and was it bought while you two was married?

"she went to the Intl School, withdrew our son from it without my knowledge, and took the refund for both the term fee and registration fee (a few hundred K) and enrolled him in a Thai school (the kid has never studied Thai)" - That is her right to do and it is also your right to go to their current school and withdraw the children from there and move them back again. But don't get down that path. What is important is that you can prove that you provide more than 10 times the money you have to according to law and the mother is still taking the money without sharing half of it with you. You see what I am getting at. With the money you provide, she cannot say that she needed to do that to provide for the kids... so yes, that could probably be considered fraud

"and enrolled him in a Thai school (the kid has never studied Thai)" - Now, that is bad parenting regardless of what you say

"time to put the carrot away and use the stick. Cut the support to 30K a month, and let her approach me with an offer." - Sorry but I think that is bad advice. The legal minimum child alimony is approx a hundred bath per day per child for younger kids, goes up for babies (milk and diapers are expensive) and for teenagers (big shoes cost more, secondary school more expensive than primary...). And of course: Both parents must share education and health costs for their children according to Thai law. How about 10,000 bath per month for all 3 children? And you of course share education and health costs 50/50 with the mother

Thai Juvenile and Family court judges think that a father who offers the mother 10,000 bath per month per child and mother and father share education and health costs 50/50 to be generous. NO wife alimony on top of that. Do make the judges job easy by suggesting that the house and the car (if bought during marriage) should be sold and split 50/50 (ex loans of course) and have valuation ready. Good incentive for the mother to agree to a deal before this goes in front of the judge too of course - maybe she doesn't want to pay half of the house or pack her things and leave...

I am glad that you want joint custody. The normal thing in Thai custody disputes is that parents sue for sole custody. Yes, great! Going for divorce with shared custody and let court help with possession of the child sounds great. You should have no problem getting 2/5 or 3/4 (mother gets Mon to Fri, you Sat Sun or perhaps Fri to Sun).

Expect the mother to play tricks and prepare for it. Make sure that you get your time with the children nailed down in the custody agreement, father has children from Friday 4PM and returns them to mother Sunday before 6PM. That makes it much easier to get the time you are entitled; it can be a nightmare to enforce that you get your time with your children if you have an open ended agreement if the mother don't want to comply

I strongly advise you to read a write up I did of my friends custody battle here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/337923-my-friends-custody-battle-for-his-2-children/

The ony difference is that they were not married BUT... that means nothing when it comes to the children and divorce in Thailand is really easy. Whatever was bought during marriage is split 50/50, whatever was bough before stays that way. There is ZERO wife alimony according to Thai law...

Thai juvenile and family courts take decisions in the best interest of the child, don't be afraid of them. The most important thing is of course the kids but doing what you do now or accepting the mother to dictate the way she does now certainly doesn't give your children a better future - or you better access to your children..

Too much reduces respect, it doesn't increase it. That's where you did wrong from the beginning, if I may be frank and say so openly

Good Luck

Michael

[MikeyIdea]

Go to Family Court, its the best and most fair way. Many other posters have stated their experiences there and say they have found the Family Court to be very fair.

Thanks for the advice. The question is though with what grounds? To use my lawyer's tatic is to go to criminal court first and charge her with fraud/theft and then use that as grounds for divorce in family court. Kinda harsh.

Not really, the criminal case is just to have a reason to file for divorce. the family court case will come up before the criminal court case anyway and there should easily be enough time to agree - and consequently drop charges before the police pass on to the district attorney even.... The police can sit on the papers for months if they want to, must go to criminal court within one year, that's all

That's the trick your lawyer is talking about

[confusedthaiguy]

I'd like to thank everyone for the advice. To answer MikeyIdea's Q's: The house is under my name purchased during marriage. The car is also purchased under my name during the marriage. I'm gonna cut back the payments and hopefully get her to court and 'll report back on the outcome but in the meantime, if anyone has any other advice, i would be immensely gratefull.

[gregb]

Deleted. Already posited above.

Edited September 14, 2011 by gregb

[MikeyIdea]

I'd like to thank everyone for the advice. To answer MikeyIdea's Q's: The house is under my name purchased during marriage. The car is also purchased under my name during the marriage. I'm gonna cut back the payments and hopefully get her to court and 'll report back on the outcome but in the meantime, if anyone has any other advice, i would be immensely gratefull.

Thai courts have a tendency to be practical rather than based on principle - negotiations will play a big role. If this one day goes to court in front of a judge, then the court will want to have a negotiated solution. Nothing would be easier for them than getting both parties to agree to a negotiated solution where the father continues to pay rediculous amounts of money, regardless of if the amounts are supported by a law or not... Meaning that what you pay now will have an impact on what you eventually will continue to pay until the children reach majority.

Hence, my recommendation is 5,000 bath per month per child and father and mother share education costs. Sharing education is a very important point and the court will support that to 100%. If it happens in reality or not doesn't matter, point is that it is a bonus for the mother if father pays it all and the mother should really be made to understand that it is. And I am not saying that you (including everything) should pay only 15,000 bath per month either, I am just saying that you should make sure that the mother understands that anything above is a non-mandatory bonus linked to performance. Very good for court too, what you present is evidence of timely bank transfers of 15,000 bath per month. Extra? No, this is what I have paid and it is what I what I will continue to pay - good starting point for negotiations

It's your car - Why don't you just go and fetch the car and park it with a friend for a month? What can the mother do? Accuse you of stealing your own car? You shouldn't sell it but you can stop the mother from using it. Puts you in a better negotiation position

These actions are not cruel for the children - they are just linking the money you give to performance. They are probably better for the children in the long run too (should give the children easier access to their father in the future). As I said, too much money or too easy life will both reduce respect.

I am not talking about starving the children... Just creating incentives for the mother to accept negotiated solution

Please read the link I provided, it will give you a good perspective of how courts see things

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/337923-my-friends-custody-battle-for-his-2-children/

Good Luck

Michael

Edited September 14, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[soundman]

Moved to new Marriage and Divorce forum.

[confusedthaiguy]

Just thought I might post a quick update. Well I cut the payments substantially and to say she didn't take it well would be an understatement. I was hoping she would be more inclined to negotiate but I guess not. Funny thing is that she still hasn't hired a lawyer. My lawyer has now filed for court action and I'll keep you updated after it is over.