scotbeve Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) "Government confirms sovereignty over the 4.6 sq km area near the Preah Vihear Temple." But it's OK for the Khmers to station troops there and build a road. Gee! Who cares anyway. Just a small piece of dirt. Better to trade it for another piece of dirt (or seabed) and let everyone who lives around there get on with there normal lives free from interference from Bangkok and Phnom Penh, including ripping off foreign tourists by charging a foreign premium to enter the piece of dirt from the scruffy Thai side. What remains of the temple (or ammunition dump) is not much to do with either side anyway, since it's a Hindu temple. The point of the contention is not so that it can be exchanged for a different seabed. If Cambodia wins this then it is used a basis to contest for the entire 27,000 square kilometers of oil and gas seabed. If the maps for the temples are accepted in their favor, then they can say the same applies for the sea border as they both emanates from the same mapmaker. Cambodia is hoping that the average sane mind, that would look at the cock-eyed map and say Cambodia is insane if they think maritime borders jump out at a right angle to the land mass and extend directly straight out, doesn't prevail. There is more at stake here than worthless scrubland. It's just the basis for the biggest prize. . You are quite corrrect in this assessment of the 'big picture' -- it almost seems pointless to try to negotiate a settlement only on the temple area. Both sides know the the real prize. Is the Royal Thai Navy still trying to buy those used submarines ? I don't remember the exact number but there is between 3000 to 3500 kms of non-demarcated borders between Cambodia, Laos, and Burma with Thailand (incl. the gulf - oil/gas fields). BTW - A major oil player had "poked some holes" in the disputed maritime area quite a while ago.... Edited September 19, 2011 by scotbeve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiphidon Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 "Government confirms sovereignty over the 4.6 sq km area near the Preah Vihear Temple." But it's OK for the Khmers to station troops there and build a road. Gee! Who cares anyway. Just a small piece of dirt. Better to trade it for another piece of dirt (or seabed) and let everyone who lives around there get on with there normal lives free from interference from Bangkok and Phnom Penh, including ripping off foreign tourists by charging a foreign premium to enter the piece of dirt from the scruffy Thai side. What remains of the temple (or ammunition dump) is not much to do with either side anyway, since it's a Hindu temple. The point of the contention is not so that it can be exchanged for a different seabed. If Cambodia wins this then it is used a basis to contest for the entire 27,000 square kilometers of oil and gas seabed. If the maps for the temples are accepted in their favor, then they can say the same applies for the sea border as they both emanates from the same mapmaker. Cambodia is hoping that the average sane mind, that would look at the cock-eyed map and say Cambodia is insane if they think maritime borders jump out at a right angle to the land mass and extend directly straight out, doesn't prevail. There is more at stake here than worthless scrubland. It's just the basis for the biggest prize. . "If Cambodia wins this then it is used a basis to contest for the entire 27,000 square kilometers of oil and gas seabed. If the maps for the temples are accepted in their favor, then they can say the same applies for the sea border as they both emanates from the same mapmaker." How is this the case? Is the disputed land at Preah Vihear directly linked to the Overlapping Claims Area (OCA) and if so, how? As far as I understand it the "dispute" is a completely seperate issue. The 2001 MoU was about discussing ways of sharing out the future oil/gas revenues of the OCA. This report http://www.clc-asia....-gas-resources/ (although dated 16th September 2010 and therefore isn't up to date as far as the decision on how government deals with territorial disputes vis a vis what percentage of parliamentary vote is needed or whether the cabinet can decide on its own, I confess I don't know myself what the latest decision is) suggests that the way on for agreeing the OCA dispute would be better served if the land dispute was settled first and compromises made. It does not say the result of the land dispute determines the outcome of the OCA dispute. Are they wrong in this? Or is it just scare tactics from the yellow shirts which have been picked up and regurgitated as Fact? Incidentally the report suggests that Thailand "wins" whichever countries OCA boundary line is agreed upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbeve Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 "Government confirms sovereignty over the 4.6 sq km area near the Preah Vihear Temple." But it's OK for the Khmers to station troops there and build a road. Gee! Who cares anyway. Just a small piece of dirt. Better to trade it for another piece of dirt (or seabed) and let everyone who lives around there get on with there normal lives free from interference from Bangkok and Phnom Penh, including ripping off foreign tourists by charging a foreign premium to enter the piece of dirt from the scruffy Thai side. What remains of the temple (or ammunition dump) is not much to do with either side anyway, since it's a Hindu temple. The point of the contention is not so that it can be exchanged for a different seabed. If Cambodia wins this then it is used a basis to contest for the entire 27,000 square kilometers of oil and gas seabed. If the maps for the temples are accepted in their favor, then they can say the same applies for the sea border as they both emanates from the same mapmaker. Cambodia is hoping that the average sane mind, that would look at the cock-eyed map and say Cambodia is insane if they think maritime borders jump out at a right angle to the land mass and extend directly straight out, doesn't prevail. There is more at stake here than worthless scrubland. It's just the basis for the biggest prize. . Both the sovereignty claims over sea mass are absurd. Using the only logical marker (the halfway point between opposing land masses) gives a completely different sea border to both claims. Agreed, have the line go out from that agreed land point perpendicular (90 degrees) for 12 nautical miles and then run SE (ish) along the Cambodian coast until the VN land border. Makes perfect sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Agreed, have the line go out from that agreed land point perpendicular (90 degrees) for 12 nautical miles and then run SE (ish) along the Cambodian coast until the VN land border. Makes perfect sense to me. The gulf is about 2-300 miles wide. I think Thailand would love your idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siam Simon Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 There is more at stake here than worthless scrubland. It's just the basis for the biggest prize. Both the sovereignty claims over sea mass are absurd. Using the only logical marker (the halfway point between opposing land masses) gives a completely different sea border to both claims. Actually, the Thailand line looks like it is a halfway point between the opposing land masses ... at least the line down the centre of the gulf. As for a line going out from the shore, how do you get a halfway point with that one? Do you follow the general line of the land border, or head out to sea at some arbitrary angle? It seems to me that the Thai line seems a more fair line than the Cambodia line. Time for an appointment with the optician for you. Start a line from the border on the eastern seaboard keeping equidistance from both sides of the eastern border. When you get to the middle of the gulf, remember to divert the line according to the distance between Thailand's western gulf coastline and Cambodia's eastern one. But don't forget about about Vietnam on the way down. All this advice is provided FOC . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) Time for an appointment with the optician for you. Start a line from the border on the eastern seaboard keeping equidistance from both sides of the eastern border. When you get to the middle of the gulf, remember to divert the line according to the distance between Thailand's western gulf coastline and Cambodia's eastern one. But don't forget about about Vietnam on the way down. All this advice is provided FOC . I'm glad it's FOC, because it's bad advice. Get your ruler out and check it again. The Thailand line is the green one. "equidistance from both sides of the eastern border." How can you be equidistant from a "both sides" of a line? Edited September 20, 2011 by whybother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbeve Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Agreed, have the line go out from that agreed land point perpendicular (90 degrees) for 12 nautical miles and then run SE (ish) along the Cambodian coast until the VN land border. Makes perfect sense to me. The gulf is about 2-300 miles wide. I think Thailand would love your idea. Most of the Gulf of Thailand is International waters. I know, I'm working here as I write this.... Yes, we get stamped out of the country before going to the heliport. Hence, "outside of the borders of Thailand"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Agreed, have the line go out from that agreed land point perpendicular (90 degrees) for 12 nautical miles and then run SE (ish) along the Cambodian coast until the VN land border. Makes perfect sense to me. The gulf is about 2-300 miles wide. I think Thailand would love your idea. Most of the Gulf of Thailand is International waters. I know, I'm working here as I write this.... Yes, we get stamped out of the country before going to the heliport. Hence, "outside of the borders of Thailand"..... Have a read ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siam Simon Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Time for an appointment with the optician for you. Start a line from the border on the eastern seaboard keeping equidistance from both sides of the eastern border. When you get to the middle of the gulf, remember to divert the line according to the distance between Thailand's western gulf coastline and Cambodia's eastern one. But don't forget about about Vietnam on the way down. All this advice is provided FOC . I'm glad it's FOC, because it's bad advice. Get your ruler out and check it again. The Thailand line is the green one. "equidistance from both sides of the eastern border." How can you be equidistant from a "both sides" of a line? Simple. You keep measuring from the land border crossing between the two borders, keeping the line equidistant from both land masses (nearest point of each as you go) as you move the line out. It's really not that complicated, and I expect there's a 'puter program that could do it for you if you struggle with such concepts. Or I can keep on explaining to you how geometry works . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Simple. You keep measuring from the land border crossing between the two borders, keeping the line equidistant from both land masses (nearest point of each as you go) as you move the line out. It's really not that complicated, and I expect there's a 'puter program that could do it for you if you struggle with such concepts. Or I can keep on explaining to you how geometry works . Still doesn't really make sense. "from the land border crossing between the two borders" Which "two borders"? There is one border between Thailand and Cambodia. Are you suggesting a line between the two claimed lines, or would it end up to the North or South of both of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prvtdetdave Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 What a wonderful age we live in. The PM announces foreign policy on Facebook, and the Defence Minister carries out "diplomacy" for the Kingdom instead of the PM or the Foreign Minister. Just so we know who is really in charge... and as for the south - that territory was annexed by Siam, wasn't it? Lets go back in history and see what the French did in the area and what was undone by treaties and arbitrary courts. I believe you may also find that much of Cambodia and Laos was Thailand or Siam at that time. So it goes over the ages, back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 "PM Yingluck Shinawatra’s affirmation on facebook" What's next - she going to have a myspace page with Hello Kitty wallpaper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbeve Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Agreed, have the line go out from that agreed land point perpendicular (90 degrees) for 12 nautical miles and then run SE (ish) along the Cambodian coast until the VN land border. Makes perfect sense to me. The gulf is about 2-300 miles wide. I think Thailand would love your idea. Most of the Gulf of Thailand is International waters. I know, I'm working here as I write this.... Yes, we get stamped out of the country before going to the heliport. Hence, "outside of the borders of Thailand"..... Have a read ... http://en.wikipedia....e_Economic_Zone Whybother, Yes, I agree it's a very complex situation throughout the globe. Border delimitation, IMHO, has been influenced by the oil & gas industry these days whereas, in the past it was fishing rights. I've read some of this (Re: EEZ) before, some Maritime (Admirality) books concerning this as well as this excerpt: In the absence of agreement, and unless another boundary line is justified by special circumstances, the boundary shall be determined by application of the principle of equidistance/median line from the nearest points of the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial sea of each State is measured.21 This combined rule consisted of two substantive elements, equidistance and special circumstances. As a result of this discussion, the Conference finally adopted the 1958 Geneva Conventions relating to respective maritime zones.22 3. The third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea 1973-1982. The Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS III) led to the adoption of the most comprehensive convention on the law of the sea to date. UNCLOS III was not only important for the development of the international law of the sea, it can also be considered as a landmark in the history of the politicodiplomatic negotiating system, and was the most innovative international law-making project ever undertaken. from: http://www.un.org/Depts/los/nippon/unnff_programme_home/fellows_pages/fellows_papers/dundua_0607_georgia.pdf This is an example of the problematic processes for delimitation. At present as seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_maritime_boundary_treaties Thailand does not have any agreement as of yet for the border line delimitation. Hopefully, these talks will amount to something.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Most of the Gulf of Thailand is International waters. I know, I'm working here as I write this.... Yes, we get stamped out of the country before going to the heliport. Hence, "outside of the borders of Thailand"..... No it isnt.... its Thai/Cambodian/Vietnamese/malaysian water dependent on were you are.....I assume you are travelling offshore from Songkhla ?....the ruling for "stamping out the country" is a provincial rule unique to Songkla province , not a national rule and its more of a "revenue" generating exercise (if you understand what I mean.... ). Not everyone gets stamped out the country when they go offshore in the GOT, the current fields in the GOT are well and truely in Thai water, the "12 mile limit" is NA in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siampolee Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Hun Sen could call upon a military man to sort out this border conflict and to mediate in the matter and I am sure a re-run of a 1987 would be totally acceptable to Hun Sen and no doubt Brother No.1 too with his vested interests in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Time for an appointment with the optician for you. Start a line from the border on the eastern seaboard keeping equidistance from both sides of the eastern border. When you get to the middle of the gulf, remember to divert the line according to the distance between Thailand's western gulf coastline and Cambodia's eastern one. But don't forget about about Vietnam on the way down. All this advice is provided FOC . I'm glad it's FOC, because it's bad advice. Get your ruler out and check it again. The Thailand line is the green one. "equidistance from both sides of the eastern border." How can you be equidistant from a "both sides" of a line? Simple. You keep measuring from the land border crossing between the two borders, keeping the line equidistant from both land masses (nearest point of each as you go) as you move the line out. It's really not that complicated, and I expect there's a 'puter program that could do it for you if you struggle with such concepts. Or I can keep on explaining to you how geometry works . The map quoted above is inaccurate anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The map quoted above is inaccurate anyway... Do you have a link to a map that is "more" accurate? What is inaccurate about this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The map quoted above is inaccurate anyway... Do you have a link to a map that is "more" accurate? What is inaccurate about this one? I do but cant post it...sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The map quoted above is inaccurate anyway... Do you have a link to a map that is "more" accurate? What is inaccurate about this one? I do but cant post it...sorry... Not publicly available? Or in the Bangkok Post? PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The map quoted above is inaccurate anyway... Do you have a link to a map that is "more" accurate? What is inaccurate about this one? I do but cant post it...sorry... Not publicly available? Or in the Bangkok Post? PM me. Not publically availible and cant PM you, you will just have to take my word for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Not publically availible and cant PM you, you will just have to take my word for it... Maybe you can hint at what is inaccurate about it then. Why wouldn't it be publicly available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siampolee Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) OO'PS Posted in error sorry Edited September 20, 2011 by siampolee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbeve Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Most of the Gulf of Thailand is International waters. I know, I'm working here as I write this.... Yes, we get stamped out of the country before going to the heliport. Hence, "outside of the borders of Thailand"..... No it isnt.... its Thai/Cambodian/Vietnamese/malaysian water dependent on were you are.....I assume you are travelling offshore from Songkhla ?....the ruling for "stamping out the country" is a provincial rule unique to Songkla province , not a national rule and its more of a "revenue" generating exercise (if you understand what I mean.... ). Not everyone gets stamped out the country when they go offshore in the GOT, the current fields in the GOT are well and truely in Thai water, the "12 mile limit" is NA in this case. Soutpeel, I beg to differ.... the field I'm in at the moment is 130 Nmi. offshore from Songkhla - all other fields are also of similar distances (as per Admiralty sea charts). One hour by chopper and 10 hrs. by crew boat. The folks that do not get stamped out are ones holding work visas. Also, at Sattahip, Laem Chabang, and Rayong ports one gets stamped out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Doubt the Thais will be so easy to give Koh Kood over to the Cambodians, if the Cambo line is accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Soutpeel, I beg to differ.... the field I'm in at the moment is 130 Nmi. offshore from Songkhla - all other fields are also of similar distances (as per Admiralty sea charts). One hour by chopper and 10 hrs. by crew boat. The folks that do not get stamped out are ones holding work visas. Also, at Sattahip, Laem Chabang, and Rayong ports one gets stamped out. If not everyone gets stamped out, then it can't be considered international waters, can it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Most of the Gulf of Thailand is International waters. I know, I'm working here as I write this.... Yes, we get stamped out of the country before going to the heliport. Hence, "outside of the borders of Thailand"..... No it isnt.... its Thai/Cambodian/Vietnamese/malaysian water dependent on were you are.....I assume you are travelling offshore from Songkhla ?....the ruling for "stamping out the country" is a provincial rule unique to Songkla province , not a national rule and its more of a "revenue" generating exercise (if you understand what I mean.... ). Not everyone gets stamped out the country when they go offshore in the GOT, the current fields in the GOT are well and truely in Thai water, the "12 mile limit" is NA in this case. Soutpeel, I beg to differ.... the field I'm in at the moment is 130 Nmi. offshore from Songkhla - all other fields are also of similar distances (as per Admiralty sea charts). One hour by chopper and 10 hrs. by crew boat. The folks that do not get stamped out are ones holding work visas. Also, at Sattahip, Laem Chabang, and Rayong ports one gets stamped out. You have answered your own comment.....if the GOT were truely in international water one would not need a WP to work offshore in the GOT.... ....the waters are Thai terroritial waters...This practice of stamping working out the country started in Songkla based on a provincial ruling many years ago, and opened up a loophole per below: Certain companiesand use this "ruling" country wide as a means to get around having to get WP's for "marine crew" permanently based only in the GOT (the debate on the legality of this is still on-going), the rational is if you are chopped out the country, you cant be working in the country, therefore you dont need a WP, but this has nothing to do with 12nm limit,s international water ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serenitynow Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Soutpeel, I beg to differ.... the field I'm in at the moment is 130 Nmi. offshore from Songkhla - all other fields are also of similar distances (as per Admiralty sea charts). One hour by chopper and 10 hrs. by crew boat. The folks that do not get stamped out are ones holding work visas. Also, at Sattahip, Laem Chabang, and Rayong ports one gets stamped out. If not everyone gets stamped out, then it can't be considered international waters, can it? For all nations with ocen boundaries, International Waters start at 12 miles. That in no way is in conflict with the fact that their EEZ's can extend much further. EEZ's are not sovereign territory beyond 12 miles though by international agreement the rights to exploit the area are well defined (usually).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbeve Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Most of the Gulf of Thailand is International waters. I know, I'm working here as I write this.... Yes, we get stamped out of the country before going to the heliport. Hence, "outside of the borders of Thailand"..... No it isnt.... its Thai/Cambodian/Vietnamese/malaysian water dependent on were you are.....I assume you are travelling offshore from Songkhla ?....the ruling for "stamping out the country" is a provincial rule unique to Songkla province , not a national rule and its more of a "revenue" generating exercise (if you understand what I mean.... ). Not everyone gets stamped out the country when they go offshore in the GOT, the current fields in the GOT are well and truely in Thai water, the "12 mile limit" is NA in this case. Soutpeel, I beg to differ.... the field I'm in at the moment is 130 Nmi. offshore from Songkhla - all other fields are also of similar distances (as per Admiralty sea charts). One hour by chopper and 10 hrs. by crew boat. The folks that do not get stamped out are ones holding work visas. Also, at Sattahip, Laem Chabang, and Rayong ports one gets stamped out. You have answered your own comment.....if the GOT were truely in international water one would not need a WP to work offshore in the GOT.... ....the waters are Thai terroritial waters...This practice of stamping working out the country started in Songkla based on a provincial ruling many years ago, and opened up a loophole per below: Certain companiesand use this "ruling" country wide as a means to get around having to get WP's for "marine crew" permanently based only in the GOT (the debate on the legality of this is still on-going), the rational is if you are chopped out the country, you cant be working in the country, therefore you dont need a WP, but this has nothing to do with 12nm limit,s international water ... The expat reps and such do, in fact, get stamped out - they have WP. SE Asians (non-Thai) living in TH and working in the GOT do not get stamped out. They live in TH, work in office, and pay TH tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotbeve Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Doubt the Thais will be so easy to give Koh Kood over to the Cambodians, if the Cambo line is accepted. Indeed Buchholz... that's a bit of a dilemma there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) The expat reps and such do, in fact, get stamped out - they have WP. SE Asians (non-Thai) living in TH and working in the GOT do not get stamped out. They live in TH, work in office, and pay TH tax. Nope, your information is incorrect and I do know this as a fact...expats reps have on occassion been stamped out the country while travelling by crewboat from Songkla, this is infact a mistake on Songkla immigrations part and if you actually take immigration to task on this point and present a valid WP, they actually back down and do not stamp you out/in the country.... If travelling by chopper they are not stamped out the country. As pointed out earlier the debate is still on as regards WP requirements for expat "marine crew" who work exclusively in the GOT, one school of thought suggests that they should be on a full WP, its is still a grey area and immigration/labour department have yet to come up with a definitive answer on this one, although have heard through the grapevine that "very soon" it will mandatory that non-thai nationals will require a full WP while working in Thai terroritial waters, but have been hearing this rumour for many years... Edited September 20, 2011 by Soutpeel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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