South African Family's Phuket Holiday Nightmare

[arch77778]

What about the Bank official replacing the travellers genuine notes with his holding of fake notes.

Suggest travellers going to Thailand write down the note numbers before handing it over for encashment anywhere.

[siamiam]

Seems to be another very popular thread, understandable as it involves things that could happen to most of us. Using ATM cards to get Thai notes is no guarantee that you wont end up in the same situation as the person in the OP. People have reported in the not too distant past on ThaiVisa getting fake 1,000 Baht notes from ATM machines. I carry a debit card that has no overdraft protection. If I were the man in this OP, dealing with a relatively large payment, I would have made sure at check in that I could use my card to pay for the room. When ready to pay for the room, I would transfer money via internet banking into the account that the debit card is tied to, and then pay my bill. Normally, there is very little money sitting in that account, so with no overdraft protection on the card there is not much money anyone can steal from the account. This method doesn't leave much room for the people you are dealing with to make a false accusation against you, or to subsequently take more money from your account via your card. There are reports of fake travelers checks as well. As one poster wrote earlier, if someone wants to claim you gave them a bad note, they will do it weather or not you had given a genuine note. I had that happen to me in Kolkatta within the last couple of years. On Sudder St. a longtime reportedly reputable moneychanger said he didn't like one of the two US $100 bills I had just changed, and 'could I give him a different one'. Sure I said, but then noticed the bill he gave back to me had been folded twice. All the bills I leave home with are pristine, so I knew what he was doing (trying to get rid of a note he thought was bad that he had been stuck with). He could have called the police and insisted that I had given him that note, but he didn't do that so I was able to walk away without a problem.

[siamiam]

It's tough dealing with foreign currencies too. I spent a good deal of time in Sudan where US hundreds are the currency of choice. I was constantly refusing counterfeits when drawing money from local bank. All the bank did was put them back in the cash drawer for the next schlub who maybe didn't notice. I have grown up with the feel, look, and weight of US currency, and on some of them even I wasn't sure. It is not at all implausible that someone like this guy picked up a few fakes when changing his money. There are some estimates out there that as many as 1% of US hundreds, and 2% of Euro Bin Laden's are counterfeit. This ranges from badly done laser printer jobs to fakes so good the only way to spot them is to check serial numbers against known print runs.

Great post, #152.

I carry a 15 power folding loupe about as big as my thumb, to check my notes. I check them after I get them from the bank in the states. It is the combination of security features that point to genuity. There was a thread some time ago on TV about the security features of the Thai 1,000 Baht notes, so people can research that as well

[siamiam]

What about the Bank official replacing the travellers genuine notes with his holding of fake notes.

Suggest travellers going to Thailand write down the note numbers before handing it over for encashment anywhere.

Good idea, and no more trouble than writing down travelers check numbers. I know a man who marks all his notes before leaving home by ink stamping them with his tiny personal mark. Still, with either system, if you run into someone determined to make a claim against you....

[sfbandung]

They were about to check out of their hotel when Sequeira crossed the road to exchange $1 000 (R7 800) at the bank in order to settle his hotel bill.

Every time I have paid in cash for a hotel in Thailand, I needed to pay up front.

Same with me, if you can't give them plastic they want the accommodation charge up front as well as a bond. With good reason. I know it's a generalisation, but people who pay cash for everything usually have something to hide. Does he wander around J'burg with loads of folding?

It's been said here many times already - Credit/Debit Cards, travellers' cheques.

Once again it sounds like we're missing something here...

And I have had the exact opposite experiences in Thailand, I have never paid for anything upfront.

Hotel bills, one night or 1 month, pay at the end, always cash.

Car and m/c repair bills, always paid after, always cash.

I know its a generalisation, but people who have to pay cash in advance must look untrustworthy or a bit iffy.

I think your situation is a rarity. Car and bike repairs are different. They have your car or bike as security.

"Hotel bills, one night or 1 month, pay at the end, always cash"

I'm not sure what hotels you stay at, but nowhere in the world have I ever not been asked for a credit card on check in. A month? In arrears? Wow.

[pooket]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

<snip>US dollars are the world's reserve currency. That means if you travel from a small country like South Africa to another small country, you buy US dollars in your home country and exchange them when you reach your destination. It ain't rocket science, bro'. It happens a million times a day all over the world.

Edited October 3, 2011 by soundman
Flame.

[louse1953]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

You bring USD or EUROS to Thailand and change them here, because if you change them at home, you will get a very bad exchange rate.

That does make sense!

You bring travelers checks and an ATM card and you can't get into the trouble you can carrying cash. Makes even more sense!

No sense to me,a victim of atm fraud.Pattaya police were very helpful and free. Perp caught 9 days later and still doing time.

[louse1953]

Surely if he is staying at a 5-Star Hotel then the hotel would normally accept US Dollars anyway, maybe at not too good exchange rate. Seems there is more to this than we know.

Thats why he crossed the road to get the better rate.

[PattayaParent]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

He changed the money at the bank across the street from the hotel if you read the story.

And who would buy Baht in their home country when you can get a better exchange rate in Thailand for your foreign currency? Just doesn't make sense.

[siamiam]

This ranges from badly done laser printer jobs to fakes so good the only way to spot them is to check serial numbers against known print runs. Even the US treasury admits there are "super dollar" fakes out there that are essentially indistinguishable from real money.

There are fake notes that carry genuine serial numbers as well. Unfortunately, the top end counterfiets are more likely to be the notes that will pass this test.

[Orac]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

He changed the money at the bank across the street from the hotel if you read the story.

And who would buy Baht in their home country when you can get a better exchange rate in Thailand for your foreign currency? Just doesn't make sense.

The same would apply to ATM cards - the exchange rate applied would certainly not be as competitive as that from a moneychanger in Thailand. As it was the last day of his holiday it could be that he had quite a few dollars left over that he brought with him and decided to change them there to pay his hotel bill rather than take them back to SA.

All in all his story sounds plausible, particularly in view of the number of other dodgy incidents that have happenned in Phuket. Maybe the story is embellished in some way but I would rather take it at face value and be forewarned about a potential scam than bury my head in the sand and pretend it didn't happen.

As a side note, I have twice had to bail out friends who relied on an ATM card for their funds in Thailand - once after it was cancelled by his bank and took over a week for a replacement to arrive and secondly when stolen. It is important to have various ways of accessing funds whilst abroad and not relying on only one method.

[Jimi007]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

You bring USD or EUROS to Thailand and change them here, because if you change them at home, you will get a very bad exchange rate.

That does make sense!

You bring travelers checks and an ATM card and you can't get into the trouble you can carrying cash. Makes even more sense!

No sense to me,a victim of atm fraud.Pattaya police were very helpful and free. Perp caught 9 days later and still doing time.

At least he's in jail instead of you.

[richard_smith237]

ATM cards can be unreliable... on a number of occasions when in other countries I have gone to an ATM only to discover my card has been blocked, usually there are backups and I carry back up US$.

It is entirely feasible that this chappy was carrying plenty of US$ - why not? Just becuase it doing so is out side the realms of explanation or experience of some members does not mean it is 'fishy', questionable or suspicious in anyway. I would suggest to some posters not to judge events or what people do by their own limited experience.

It's pretty obviously what happened here... either the guy was scammed or he was trying to run a scam. The point regarding his reasons to change US$1000 is a completely irrelevant point and rather absurd and pointless to be discussing such.

The million dollar question (or $1000) is did this man have face $100 bills and try to change them?

IF he did, was he unfairly extorted ? (If he knowingly cheated, he paid his price).

IF he was innocent, this is a terrible case of extortion - and really is worth of further investigation. I suspect that this is what makes so many people angry when they read a topic such as this. What chances are there of a fair investigation?

[simon43]

I read on another forum that he was carrying new US dollars and also some old US dollars from a holiday that he took in Mauritius some 10 years ago. Unbeknown to him, those old US dollars were no longer legal tender. If he tried to pay his hotel bill with them, it's conceivable that the hotel noticed the different bank note design, realised that they were no longer legal tender, and assumed he was trying to scam the hotel.

I'm sure many of us have foreign currency notes lying around that we've acquired from previous, overseas holidays, and we want to offload these when we get the opportunity. That does not (or should not) make us a criminal if we are unaware that the notes are no longer legal tender. It's an innocent mistake.

As for the police volunteer advising the man to sign the statement that was written in Thai - we have not heard the volunteer's side of the story on this. But it's not the place of a volunteer to advise a tourist whether or not to sign a statement that is written in a language that neither he (the tourist) nor he (the volunteer, who I do know does not read Thai) is unable to understand. That is advice that should be provided by a lawyer.

Regardless of whether or not the man was totally innocent or totally guilty of this offence, it seems that (yet again), the rules of Thai law was not followed, and one person is considerably financially poorer, and some other (un-named persons), are considerably richer at the tourist's expense.

Simon

[cloudhopper]

Unbeknown to him, those old US dollars were no longer legal tender. If he tried to pay his hotel bill with them, it's conceivable that the hotel noticed the different bank note design, realised that they were no longer legal tender, and assumed he was trying to scam the hotel.

Legitimate US dollar notes never lose their legal tender status regardless of age. It's true many older or slightly damaged notes may not be accepted overseas but that's merely a business prerogative.

[meatboy]

Unbeknown to him, those old US dollars were no longer legal tender. If he tried to pay his hotel bill with them, it's conceivable that the hotel noticed the different bank note design, realised that they were no longer legal tender, and assumed he was trying to scam the hotel.

Legitimate US dollar notes never lose their legal tender status regardless of age. It's true many older or slightly damaged notes may not be accepted overseas but that's merely a business prerogative.

it happened to me this year the bank refused to except £200 in 20's that were no longer legal tender,can only change them back in the uk banks.taken out of service july 2010.

[simon43]

Exactly - if he offered old/worn US dollars, the hotel can refuse to accept them. But that does not make him guilty of attempting to pass fake notes.

We really need to know what was the outcome of sending the notes to Bangkok for checking. Were they fake or not, and if not, what crime was he guilty of?

Simon

[cloudhopper]

it happened to me this year the bank refused to except £200 in 20's that were no longer legal tender,can only change them back in the uk banks.taken out of service july 2010.

That is because GBP are "legal tender" only in the UK and nowhere else and that bank couldn't or didn't want to deal with returning them to the UK. The legal tender here is THB and no bank or business is legally obligated to accept any other currency if they do not wish to. All currencies must eventually return to their country of origin for this reason.

[Wallaby]

This story smells fishy. Why would anyone exchange their cash at a travel agency instead of a bank? Why would you bring US Dollars to Thailand instead of Thai Baht? It just doesn't make sense...

Are you serious?? You may be willing to buy baht at a very high price outside of Thailand, but smart people bring dollars, Euros, etc., or a debit card, and get a much better exchange rate.

No, I was joking. And you're right, smart people would use a debit card and not risk becoming a target by carrying around a lot of cash.

I must be smart.

On my first trip a couple of years ago I told my bank in oz I was going to Thailand for 3 weeks.

Got off the plane and withdrew 10,000 baht. 2 days later went to withdraw more funds and the transaction declined. Went on internet and found no issues, tried again, nothing. Phoned bank and was told there was a transaction in Thaland so they put a 'stop' on the card. So now they know I'm in Thailand and all good.

Withdrew more money that day. Following day found they'd put a stop on it again.

3 bloody times they stopped transactions on my card knowing I was in Thailand and this from a major bank, Westpac.

But yeah, I must be smart.

I wonder if they have determined if the notes are conterfiet yet. Of course they SHOULD be returning it to him if they aren't.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Wallaby

[meatboy]

it happened to me this year the bank refused to except £200 in 20's that were no longer legal tender,can only change them back in the uk banks.taken out of service july 2010.

That is because GBP are "legal tender" only in the UK and nowhere else and that bank couldn't or didn't want to deal with returning them to the UK. The legal tender here is THB and no bank or business is legally obligated to accept any other currency if they do not wish to. All currencies must eventually return to their country of origin for this reason.

i knew this but what i was trying to say i didnt know that they had been recalled as it was these notes were mixed up with £5k.as you say no bank is legally obligated to accept any other currency that would go a long way to fckin up the tourism.i did feel agrieved that my bank would not help me as they have a branch in the uk.also the total i was changing was going into a savings acc.i also did say any exs.i would pay.

[saengsureeya]

It's a normal practice in J'burg at least to have the travel agent take care of such things, similarly, it's also normal practice for doctors to consult over the phone and then send the prescribed medications via courier. It's not the same as Kansas I'm afraid.

[ozzieovaseas]

Exactly - if he offered old/worn US dollars, the hotel can refuse to accept them. But that does not make him guilty of attempting to pass fake notes.

We really need to know what was the outcome of sending the notes to Bangkok for checking. Were they fake or not, and if not, what crime was he guilty of?

Simon

I suspect there's more to this story and lots we havent been told. Does'nt South Africa have very strict controls on money leaving the country?

What about this scenario...

The guy had a piles of cash (gained from sources unknown) and did not declare it in transit, out of S.A, therefor the authorities there would have no trace of the money or any official documentation that may be required. This would not help if he ran into trouble overseas.

If there was any doubt about the notes, i'd assume the first thing the Thai police would do is to contact the authorities at the location this guy exited from. If there was no paper trail on the cash then surely the authorities in S.A would take a pretty dim view. They could'nt be blaimed in assuming the money was illegitimate..whether it was fake or not.

So, already the guy has broken any number of laws. Maybe the Thai police held him until it was investigated internationally?

If there was any doubts about the cash id think the Thais would want all his debts repaid legitimately. If the money was fake then its not unreasonable to assume that all those notes had to be recovered from all the sources and the businesses and services this guy splurged on would have to be reimbursed for losses. That would explain why the police demanded so much.

Maybe i am being naive, but i don't think it is fair to always assume there is a scam going on whenever a farang is nabbed for something...

[simon43]

Maybe i am being naive, but i don't think it is fair to always assume there is a scam going on whenever a farang is nabbed for something..

Absolutely agree - but whatever his innocence or guilt, the correct legal procedure should be followed, and based upon the information so far, it has not been followed. (How come the senior police officer was not informed of his arrest - that is something that is required in situations such as this, and an action which the embassies have recently insisted upon, due to previous 'dubious' incidents.

Simon

PS - if the guy has broken SA laws regarding export of currency etc, then that is a matter for the SA authorities to deal with, not the Thai authorities, (unless they were requested to do so by SA).

Edited October 3, 2011 by simon43

[richard_smith237]

Maybe i am being naive, but i don't think it is fair to always assume there is a scam going on whenever a farang is nabbed for something..

Absolutely agree - but whatever his innocence or guilt, the correct legal procedure should be followed, and based upon the information so far, it has not been followed. (How come the senior police officer was not informed of his arrest - that is something that is required in situations such as this, and an action which the embassies have recently insisted upon, due to previous 'dubious' incidents.

Simon

PS - if the guy has broken SA laws regarding export of currency etc, then that is a matter for the SA authorities to deal with, not the Thai authorities, (unless they were requested to do so by SA).

Well, it appears he may have broken the law by taking more than *R5000 (equivalent to US$615 out of the country.

*R5000 is the limit to take in and out of RSA.

However, that is not the point - The South African fellow has been extorted by the RTP in Phuket... unfortunately this behavior by the RTP in Phuket reminiscent of the Duty Free scams and I very much doubt an isolated incident.

[Orac]

Exactly - if he offered old/worn US dollars, the hotel can refuse to accept them. But that does not make him guilty of attempting to pass fake notes.

We really need to know what was the outcome of sending the notes to Bangkok for checking. Were they fake or not, and if not, what crime was he guilty of?

Simon

I suspect there's more to this story and lots we havent been told. Does'nt South Africa have very strict controls on money leaving the country?

What about this scenario...

The guy had a piles of cash (gained from sources unknown) and did not declare it in transit, out of S.A, therefor the authorities there would have no trace of the money or any official documentation that may be required. This would not help if he ran into trouble overseas.

If there was any doubt about the notes, i'd assume the first thing the Thai police would do is to contact the authorities at the location this guy exited from. If there was no paper trail on the cash then surely the authorities in S.A would take a pretty dim view. They could'nt be blaimed in assuming the money was illegitimate..whether it was fake or not.

So, already the guy has broken any number of laws. Maybe the Thai police held him until it was investigated internationally?

If there was any doubts about the cash id think the Thais would want all his debts repaid legitimately. If the money was fake then its not unreasonable to assume that all those notes had to be recovered from all the sources and the businesses and services this guy splurged on would have to be reimbursed for losses. That would explain why the police demanded so much.

Maybe i am being naive, but i don't think it is fair to always assume there is a scam going on whenever a farang is nabbed for something...

The problem with your scenario is that the source of the cash is not unknown - it supposedly came from a reputable travel agent who provided a letter to confirm that.

[Orac]

Maybe i am being naive, but i don't think it is fair to always assume there is a scam going on whenever a farang is nabbed for something..

Absolutely agree - but whatever his innocence or guilt, the correct legal procedure should be followed, and based upon the information so far, it has not been followed. (How come the senior police officer was not informed of his arrest - that is something that is required in situations such as this, and an action which the embassies have recently insisted upon, due to previous 'dubious' incidents.

Simon

PS - if the guy has broken SA laws regarding export of currency etc, then that is a matter for the SA authorities to deal with, not the Thai authorities, (unless they were requested to do so by SA).

Well, it appears he may have broken the law by taking more than *R5000 (equivalent to US$615 out of the country.

*R5000 is the limit to take in and out of RSA.

However, that is not the point - The South African fellow has been extorted by the RTP in Phuket... unfortunately this behavior by the RTP in Phuket reminiscent of the Duty Free scams and I very much doubt an isolated incident.

We don't know how many SAR he took out of the country - all we know is he took some USD out. The restriction on how many SAR can be taken out coupled with the inability to get THB in SA which someone more knowledgeable mentioned earlier would explain why he needed the USD.

[Payboy]

"legal tender"

Yeah, next time he should just bring some rhino horn or exotic animals.

[Canexpat]

AMAZING that after perusing just a few months of news stories on this website regarding foreigners nightmares in Thailand, that more countries do not post regular warnings to their citizens travelling here about how freaking insane it is for foreigners...

[Richard4849]

What's insane about being put in jail for passing counterfeit bank notes? And keeping you there if you're unable to post bail?

What's insane is that you believe everything you read in the papers.

[arch77778]

For the record one can take out of South Africa Rand notes 10 000 and foreign notes ,the equivalent of 1M Rand.

Rennies in SA who supplied the notes have got their own investigators looking into this matter.