Custody Law

[rosbif]

After two years marriage, I'm finally calling it a day. Three years together, but living with someone suffering from a worsening bipolar (formerly known as 'manic depression') condition, has taken its toll. We've a child approaching two years old, who has spent most of the last two years in Europe. My Thai wife has been back in Thailand these past three months, staying with the family, trying to get treatment (psychiatrist at a top Bangkok hospital, as well as in her home town). It hasn't worked. During those three months the child has been with me, in Europe. The child holds both British and Thai nationality.

I've good reason to go for custody, as someone suffering from an extreme form of bipolar condition can be more than depressed. I've seen attempts at self-harm, and threats to kill not only herself but the child too. I've watched her beat herself on the head with fists, or any object close at hand, until she looks like she's done a round with Mike Tyson. It's scary, believe me. The last straw was her with a bewildered toddler in her arms while she screamed hysterically, waving a lethally sharp kitchen knife around, holding it to both her throat and that of the child. Enough's enough.

So while she's been back in Thailand, I've finally told her what I think, with the inevitable consequences - threats, pleadings, another overdose, the lot. It's impossible to predict what her next move will be, which is part of the problem. Someone suffering from an extreme form of this condition, on average two or three days every week, has little or no control over herself. It's like living with two different people, polar opposites.

I'm looking to spend six months a year over the next couple of years in Thailand. A custody order made in Europe, were I to go for it, I don't suppose would be worth the paper it's written on once I'm in Thailand. I don't want to hide the child from her mum. When the condition's under control, she's a loving and caring mum. Children need to spend time with both parents, if possible, after a separation/divorce. But I am concerned that for entirely selfish reasons - mainly to hurt me - she could refuse to return the child. Not because she's a mum who desperately wants to be with her kid. Given that she's already got a 9 and 11 year old from her first marriage that she's hardly seen since they were toddlers, I just don't believe she's that kind of mother.

So I've written to her asking her to sign an agreement giving me parental charge, or whatever the Thai equivalent of custody is. If she agrees, how enforceable would such an agreement be, in Thailand, Thai mum against farang father, should she change her mind? Are there any other steps I should take to ensure the child's safety? If she doesn't agree to such an agreement, I know I'm in trouble. I cannot prove the consequences of her illness as far as threatening my life and that of the child goes. It would be her word against mine. Still, for the kid's sake, I don't see that I've got any other option, but to try.

Thanks.

[cdnvic]

Thailand is party to The Hague Convention on international child abduction so a custody order made in Europe while the child is a resident there should be enforceable. The grey area is in the language of the convention which recognizes the child's habitual home. For this reason you should consult a legal professional experienced in these matters if the child has spent any substantial time in Thailand.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/when-things-go-wrong/child-abduction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

[venturalaw]

Frankly, if she has been a threat to your child as you described, you are crazy to allow her access without supervision. Bottom line, if she wishes to visit (supervised) with your child, have her come to England. Do not go to Thailand and expect to be successful should the matter go before a magistrate. Your child has dual nationalities, therefore the Thai courts may decide that Thailand is the child's home resulting in your leaving Thailand without your child.

[rosbif]

I made no reference to the question of supervised access because it wasn't relevant. I would take every precaution possible. And unsurprisingly it is entirely impractical for the mother to come to Europe. What, for a weekend perhaps? Or should she expect me to put her up for a few weeks, despite our history? Sorry, but those options are out of the question.

I spend a chunk of the year in Thailand. Obviously this time around I will have to bring the child with me. I can hardly deny the mother access throughout that period, so I'm looking for the best options to ensure the best outcome for all involved.

I'm a realist, I'm expecting problems. I'm just trying to minimise their effect. At the moment the best bargaining chip I have is money, but that doesn't always work in such circumstances.

[Mario2008]

Not sure about the legality of any such agreement. Since you are still married, pettitioning the court for sole custody based on the fact that the mother is not capable and a danger to the child might be a better way. Especially in the case that the mother is deemed a danger, a Thai court and police will act very swiftly if there are any problems. I think legally this would be the best way, in terms of maintaining a good relationship with the mother it might not be.

[ludditeman]

Does she have a valid visa to visit Europe?

If not, just stay in Europe with the child, no divorce, no custody battle.

She can't get to you or the child.

[venturalaw]

I made no reference to the question of supervised access because it wasn't relevant. I would take every precaution possible. And unsurprisingly it is entirely impractical for the mother to come to Europe. What, for a weekend perhaps? Or should she expect me to put her up for a few weeks, despite our history? Sorry, but those options are out of the question.

I spend a chunk of the year in Thailand. Obviously this time around I will have to bring the child with me. I can hardly deny the mother access throughout that period, so I'm looking for the best options to ensure the best outcome for all involved.

I'm a realist, I'm expecting problems. I'm just trying to minimise their effect. At the moment the best bargaining chip I have is money, but that doesn't always work in such circumstances.

Supervision can be exercised by you or any 3rd party that is agreeable to you both. It's clearly relevant because there is potential danger to your child (your wife has threatened to "kill not only herself but the child too") plus you stated that your wife may chose not to return your child to you. Now if that is not a situation that you find relevant to the condition of supervision, I'd be interested in hearing what condition(s) in your considered experience would so warrant? I've practiced family law for more than 20 years. Your concern regarding the rights of the mother and the possible lack of convenience for you appear to be superior to the safety of your child. You believe that it is not relevant to consider supervised visitation for someone who has beaten herself to a point where it appears she has been the ring with Mike Tyson. Perhaps you should seek counseling to bring your perspective of what is relevant more in line with reality, at least for the safety of your child.

Good luck to you.

Edited October 3, 2011 by venturalaw

[rosbif]

Venturalaw, you misunderstand. It wasn't relevant to my main question, which was whether a written commitment by one party to give full custody to the other parent carries weight under the Thai system. Obviously some form of supervision would be advisable in the circumstances, that goes without saying, and this problem has been foremost in my mind from the outset. But my main concern and question for the purpose of this thread was about the legal weight of a parental charge agreement under Thai law, ie is it enforceable in the case of non-compliance in the same manner as it would be in Europe, the US etc.

In my follow-up question about other possible steps to take, I was also referring to Thai law. For example would it be better to first set the divorce process in motion, stating the grounds from my point of view, so that there is a record of the alleged threat, even if it is only one person's word against another's. At this stage I don't know whether she will agree to a quickie divorce or not, or whether it will have to go through the courts.

Just take my word for it, my concern for the child's safety is paramount. But as I have no choice but to have her with me during my enforced stay in Thailand, I want to ensure that I have taken all the legal steps necessary to minimise the risks. You mention supervised visitation as a general principle, but does this exist in the Thai system in the same manner as in Europe etc. And obviously, before tackling the issue of supervision, I have to first get her to agree to sole custody in my favour, and in a legally binding manner within the Thai system.

[MikeyIdea]

Rosbif, my ex has a pretty mild type 2 bipolar and a number of years with that has been pushing me more than I wish I had taken. You ending it while you still are relatively un-affected sounds good.

I really like when you write that you want the child to have access to both parents. Your child is still young, take your time ensuring that you get a valid and stable long term legal solution that will benefit the both of you for many years to come

You need to be careful on the legal arena. Not especially careful because Thai law in this area is bad, it certainly is not, but because you have a very difficult case anywhere. Because the mother and the father live in different countries

"A custody order made in Europe, were I to go for it, I don't suppose would be worth the paper it's written on once I'm in Thailand."

Not correct - A custody order made in Europe does matter in Thailand. It's not automatically valid of course but it does really affect the judges. You would be in a much! better position if you have a custody order from Europe behind you

"I've seen attempts at self-harm, and threats to kill not only herself but the child too. I've watched her beat herself on the head with fists, or any object close at hand, until she looks like she's done a round with Mike Tyson. It's scary, believe me. The last straw was her with a bewildered toddler in her arms while she screamed hysterically, waving a lethally sharp kitchen knife around, holding it to both her throat and that of the child. Enough's enough."

Have you got any evidence of that? If not, then it didn't happen - in an European court as well as a Thai court...

I would see it like this: Do you have enough evidence to get sole custody in your home country? If you have enough evidence to get it there, then you have enough to get it here in Thailand. If you don't have enough to get it in Europe, then don't expect to get it here

"If she agrees, how enforceable would such an agreement be, in Thailand, Thai mum against farang father, should she change her mind?"

This has nothing to do with Thai mum against farang father. I don't think that a custody agreement between married parents are valid in the first place. Would it be valid in your home country? If you are legally married, then the correct path (in both countries) should be to divorce and arrange custody (and possession of the child) at the same time.

Take your time, your child is only 2 years old - If you have enough evidence to get sole custody or supervised visits in your home country, then I think you should go ahead, a year or so is not that much. You will need the help of the mothers medical journal, you can't get it but court will request it. If there is no medical evidence in your home country, then your situation is weak and I would suggest that you arrange opportunity to gather more evidence, then take things to court

I understand your concern on the mother coming to England but perhaps you should consider it for now if you have no formal evidence of the mothers illness. You can stop the mother from bringing your child out of your home country and she can do the same to you if you bring the child to Thailand. That doesn't mean that you will get an unfair trial in Thailand. This is the standard problem with custody disputes when parents life in different countries.

It's probably not going to work but discuss with the mother about going to amphur to formally divorce, giving you sole custody and mother visitation rights 3 months per year + decent money I suppose. Law says approx 3,100 bath per month so 10,000 bath per month should take you pretty far. As should half a million bath cash. Perhaps not bringing the child to TH until divorce is clear better. Make very sure that you have plenty of evidence on that you intend to give the mother access to her child after divorce. That is so very important in court. If you are on good talking terms with the wife's family, then why not bring this up with them and ask them to help giving their grand daughter the best possible future

If you have good evidence of medical disorder; - and you know the mother is abroad, then another way could be to sue for sole custody in Thailand while the mother is away. That would force her back to defend herself or she will eventually lose custody. She comes back and you will still be in a good position but you will need strong evidence indeed to be allowed to take the child out of Thailand if the mother refuse to allow it. I do trust the Thai court system to be fair so I would not worry about getting a deal good and safe enough for my child, I would surely get that with formal medical evidence - just that it may not include allowing to take the child out of the country, that's up to how much the mother fights

Good Luck

Edited October 3, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[nontabury]

Thailand is party to The Hague Convention on international child abduction so a custody order made in Europe while the child is a resident there should be enforceable. The grey area is in the language of the convention which recognizes the child's habitual home. For this reason you should consult a legal professional experienced in these matters if the child has spent any substantial time in Thailand.

http://www.fco.gov.u...child-abduction

http://en.wikipedia....Child_Abduction

I think you'll find that Thailand has NOT signed the Hague Convention,I enquired at the Thai justice dept about 3 yrs ago, and that's what i was told.

To the OP under no cercumstances should you return to Thailand with the child,even if you have sole custody granted by a British court,

1/ She may take you to a Thai court,and although the Thai Childrens Court(unlike the rest of the Thai legal system) are usually fair, they prefare to award joint custody, not to say you will not gain

sole custody,but is the risk worth it?

2/ She may take the child and try to dissapear, if she does who is going to help you trace your child? if it was the other way around and you absconded to the uk,without uk custody, she would be able to

obtain help from different UK government sponsored agencies(payed for by you) to trace and return the child to Thailand.

[Mario2008]

Convention signed or not, if the mother is a danger to the child it is a clear cut case.

[venturalaw]

Convention signed or not, if the mother is a danger to the child it is a clear cut case.

As previously stated, only if there is proof.

[ludditeman]

Convention signed or not, if the mother is a danger to the child it is a clear cut case.

As previously stated, only if there is proof.

In the UK evidence provided by the father is disregarded.

The mothers word is considered always truthful.

The UK is not the place to allow this battle.

As far as I can see she has no access to any UK agencies to advance her cause.

[cdnvic]

I think you'll find that Thailand has NOT signed the Hague Convention,I enquired at the Thai justice dept about 3 yrs ago, and that's what i was told.

- With regard to other international instruments related to human rights, Thailand also ratified, among others, the following

(1) ILO Conventions- ILO Convention No.29 on Forced Labour in 1969, ILO Convention No. 182 concerning the worst forms of child labour in 2001, ILO Convention No. 138 concerning the minimum age for admission to employment on 11 May 2004.

(2) Hague Conventions- The Hague Convention on the Protection on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction on 9 August 2002, and the Hague Convention on Protection of Children and Cooperation in Respect of Inter-country Adoption on 1 August 2004.

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/24.php

[MikeyIdea]

Convention signed or not, if the mother is a danger to the child it is a clear cut case.

As previously stated, only if there is proof.

In the UK evidence provided by the father is disregarded.

The mothers word is considered always truthful.

The UK is not the place to allow this battle.

As far as I can see she has no access to any UK agencies to advance her cause

Be careful saying that

There has been a case where a legally married British father decided to take the child from Thailand to his home country without the mothers consent (as it is not kidnapping according to Thai law). The mother sued for sole custody in Thailand, father did not go to Thailand to defend himself and mother got sole custody granted of course. Then she sued the father in England and court there upheld the Thai court order and ordered the child returned to Thailand. That case is in the Supreme Court in Thailand now and the father is getting nowhere. He has thoroughly proven that he cannot to be trusted and the best thing that he ever can hope for is supervised visits - maybe

That British father didn't think that the mother in that case could get at him in England either

Evidence is the key here - gather evidence. Video is great evidence, people being filmed when they don't want to also tend to get very angry. It should not be that difficult to get an already unstable mother to provide very suitable video evidence, risky probably but not that difficult. Then use that in court

Edited October 3, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[rosbif]

For the purpose of clarification, although I am a British citizen, I have cut my ties with the UK and have lived abroad, and mostly in France for nearly 25 years. I haven't taken French nationality. Any legal moves outside Thailand would have to be via the French system where I am resident for tax purposes.

Cheers Mikeyldea. You'll have a good picture of what it's like. No we're not divorced, and I have no idea how it'll turn out - one effect of bipolar disorder in her case is that she can veer from calm and total understanding, compliance, and acceptance of the idea of an 'amicable' divorce one moment, then a few hours later she is completely hysterical, coming out with every threat imaginable, promising to place every obstacle in my way. Ok that's hardly exclusive to bipolar syndrome in cases of relationship break-up, but the speed with which she can transform from one state to the other, and back again, has to be seen to be believed.

I've asked one of her family members to mediate, and suggested a quick divorce. My Thai isn't really up to the task, so I think I'll need a reliable translator and probably a Thai family law solicitor sooner rather than later, to move things along.

So it seems I have to go for the divorce first, before tackling the custody issue. And no as I've already pointed out, there is no evidence with respect to her violent outbursts. I've kept it all under wraps up to now, hoping that with treatment things can approve. Yes, she has been seeing a psychiatrist in Bangkok, a specialist in bipolar disorder, at Bumrungrad - so not exactly cheap, as you can imagine! As well as another psychiatrist in her home town. Whether records of confidential discussions can be obtained by a judge or not, I've not idea how helpful they would be, as I am of course not privy to their content or to the doctors' conclusions.

I'm obviously concerned about coming to Thailand while there is no official divorce or custody arrangement. Time is running out. I have to be away from France over the winter, as prior to all this blowing up I had arranged for my place to be rented out, and I can't go back on that agreement. Thailand is my second home, I want my child to continue to be exposed to Thai culture and language (which she has not for the last three months, since her mother returned to Thailand). I also want to continue to try to maintain good relations with the family, and as much as possible, with the mother. But I suppose if nothing has been sorted out soon, and it's looking like it will be a messy divorce, I'll probably have to head somewhere else in SE Asia. Definitely not my preferred option, but if there's no choice...

[Mario2008]

Convention signed or not, if the mother is a danger to the child it is a clear cut case.

As previously stated, only if there is proof.

In the UK evidence provided by the father is disregarded.

The mothers word is considered always truthful.

The UK is not the place to allow this battle.

As far as I can see she has no access to any UK agencies to advance her cause.

People do seem to forget that a child has rights of its own and court procedeeings can be started on behalf of the child, if necesarry with the court appointing a special guardian to act on behalf of the child. It often isn't only the other parent that can petition the court.

UK courts do take the childs best interest at hearth, but it seems that this case will be either fought in the French or Thai courts.

[Mario2008]

For the purpose of clarification, although I am a British citizen, I have cut my ties with the UK and have lived abroad, and mostly in France for nearly 25 years. I haven't taken French nationality. Any legal moves outside Thailand would have to be via the French system where I am resident for tax purposes.

Cheers Mikeyldea. You'll have a good picture of what it's like. No we're not divorced, and I have no idea how it'll turn out - one effect of bipolar disorder in her case is that she can veer from calm and total understanding, compliance, and acceptance of the idea of an 'amicable' divorce one moment, then a few hours later she is completely hysterical, coming out with every threat imaginable, promising to place every obstacle in my way. Ok that's hardly exclusive to bipolar syndrome in cases of relationship break-up, but the speed with which she can transform from one state to the other, and back again, has to be seen to be believed.

I've asked one of her family members to mediate, and suggested a quick divorce. My Thai isn't really up to the task, so I think I'll need a reliable translator and probably a Thai family law solicitor sooner rather than later, to move things along.

So it seems I have to go for the divorce first, before tackling the custody issue. And no as I've already pointed out, there is no evidence with respect to her violent outbursts. I've kept it all under wraps up to now, hoping that with treatment things can approve. Yes, she has been seeing a psychiatrist in Bangkok, a specialist in bipolar disorder, at Bumrungrad - so not exactly cheap, as you can imagine! As well as another psychiatrist in her home town. Whether records of confidential discussions can be obtained by a judge or not, I've not idea how helpful they would be, as I am of course not privy to their content or to the doctors' conclusions.

I'm obviously concerned about coming to Thailand while there is no official divorce or custody arrangement. Time is running out. I have to be away from France over the winter, as prior to all this blowing up I had arranged for my place to be rented out, and I can't go back on that agreement. Thailand is my second home, I want my child to continue to be exposed to Thai culture and language (which she has not for the last three months, since her mother returned to Thailand). I also want to continue to try to maintain good relations with the family, and as much as possible, with the mother. But I suppose if nothing has been sorted out soon, and it's looking like it will be a messy divorce, I'll probably have to head somewhere else in SE Asia. Definitely not my preferred option, but if there's no choice...

What you decribe is normal for bipolar disorder and we had a few cases like yours on the forum. Key is to docuemnt th behaviour of the mother and to establish she is a danger to the child.

How to proceed might be best discussed with a lawyer. Isaanlawyers has a good reputation regarding famaly law, you could also do a forum earch on bi-polar and see if you cna get the old treads about this. maybe the members who had similair problems can give you advise or the name of a competent lawyer.

[venturalaw]

OP, an article that may provide insight: http://www.justgreatadvice.com/bipolar/borderline-personality-disorder-vs-bipolar.php

I was involved with a BPD (often confused with bipolar disorder) - it turns one's life upside down. Once you are free from the afflicted, the expression "a tremendous weight lifted from one's shoulders" doesn't even come close to describing the relief. There is a very informative book "Walking on Eggshells" which provides some understanding and assistance.

As previously recommended, seek and secure evidence. Also, maintain a journal - calendar of events. Document, document, document. It's so very important. You are in a fight for the safety, emotional and physical well-being of your child. I'm certain that there is nothing more important to you. Secure the best legal team available - there are many significant, multinational firms located in Bangkok. Make a plan and execute it. Good luck.

[rosbif]

Thanks Mario2008. I have just composed and sent a long email to IsaanLawyers.

venturalaw, thanks very much for that article link. The description of BPD overlaps, but in some ways it is more familiar. The rapid same day changes are something I could not easily equate with what I have read about bipolar disorder. The extremes of emotion it mentions, frantic shopping, gorging on food, going from a complete lack of self-worth to excessive confidence in the same day, and sometimes back again, inability to stick to a task, or frantically doing nothing but, oh... so, so familiar. Virtually every word in the piece sums up my wife.

As well, it's uncanny, some of the words you used to describe your experience, two phrases in particular. The number of times I have described to friends how I felt I was "constantly walking on eggshells". Just one word, or a misconstrued look, can change a superficially 'happy' person from apparent contentment to the depths of depression, a ranting, screaming maniac. In minutes.

And the second phrase you used, the "tremendous weight being lifted from the shoulders". Exactly what I have felt, and described to others, as soon as she got on that plane back home. And despite the pressures of work and single parenthood since, that feeling has remained and been reinforced since telling her that I thought we had no choice but to divorce.

[ebcal]

Rosbif,

I also can sympathize with you. I have had 2 ex- GF's over the years that had mental illness. One, in the USA, diagnosed with bipolar and have many stories of the experiences there. So, I can related to your experience and how hard it must be. It is amazing how little we(medical science) know about mental illness. The different medicines they try are all trial and error and see what works.

Then, I encountered with a GF in Thailand, who was seemingly fine for a couple of years, then had some mental issues that started not too long after a accident she had on a motorbike. I dont know if that triggered anything, but do wonder. She was more unipolar and mostly depressed, when she got really sick, but also lost touch with reality a bit. When she see seemed fine initially, I did not see the manic side so much in terms of personality, except that she was very hard working and got by on little sleep, going for a Masters degree at the same time running two businesses. I dont know what her final diagnosis was, but she ended up seeing a doctor and was diagnosed with some mental illness. We did not stay together, more on her part, then mine, but better for me it ended. I saw her not too long ago and she seemed to be doing better, but we remained only friends.

After encountering 2 cases, it did make me wonder how common it really is. And how many borderline cases are never even diagnosed and maybe people just think someone is quirky or moody or a bit eccentric or a bit wild.

I would echo the suggestions to make sure you collect clear evidence to support your case of her problems or being dangerous.

Hope you can find a not too painful or messy way to settle the situation that works for all. Good Luck

[venturalaw]

Thanks Mario2008. I have just composed and sent a long email to IsaanLawyers.

venturalaw, thanks very much for that article link. The description of BPD overlaps, but in some ways it is more familiar. The rapid same day changes are something I could not easily equate with what I have read about bipolar disorder. The extremes of emotion it mentions, frantic shopping, gorging on food, going from a complete lack of self-worth to excessive confidence in the same day, and sometimes back again, inability to stick to a task, or frantically doing nothing but, oh... so, so familiar. Virtually every word in the piece sums up my wife.

As well, it's uncanny, some of the words you used to describe your experience, two phrases in particular. The number of times I have described to friends how I felt I was "constantly walking on eggshells". Just one word, or a misconstrued look, can change a superficially 'happy' person from apparent contentment to the depths of depression, a ranting, screaming maniac. In minutes.

And the second phrase you used, the "tremendous weight being lifted from the shoulders". Exactly what I have felt, and described to others, as soon as she got on that plane back home. And despite the pressures of work and single parenthood since, that feeling has remained and been reinforced since telling her that I thought we had no choice but to divorce.

To sum it up, no one can really appreciate what it is like unless they have personal experience. When people hear the stories, they can not fathom how or why one would stay for one second in this type of relationship. What they don't know is that often the afflicted are so through no fault of their own. Mine had been abused as an infant and throughout her childhood. I'm not offering excuses, but providing an explanation as to why when one is involved in such a relationship it is often guilt that keeps one from running for the hills: How can I leave her when it wasn't her fault that she turned out this way? And, often times the afflicted can be extremely charming and anything but dull, thus providing a dim glimmer of hope (which is ALWAYS false hope). Also, they are often quite intelligent, gifted and/or accomplished. But the bottom line is that eventually they will bring you down. One has to get out of the relationship because it is truly toxic.

Edited October 7, 2011 by venturalaw

[ludditeman]

To sum it up, no one can really appreciate what it is like unless they have personal experience. When people hear the stories, they can not fathom how or why one would stay for one second in this type of relationship. What they don't know is that often the afflicted are so through no fault of their own. Mine had been abused as an infant and throughout her childhood. I'm not offering excuses, but providing an explanation as to why when one is involved in such a relationship it is often guilt that keeps one from running for the hills: How can I leave her when it wasn't her fault that she turned out this way? And, often times the afflicted can be extremely charming and anything but dull, thus providing a dim glimmer of hope (which is ALWAYS false hope). Also, they are often quite intelligent, gifted and/or accomplished. But the bottom line is that eventually they will bring you down. One has to get out of the relationship because it is truly toxic.

Your mistake is in thinking your girl is different.

They all have excuses, they all behave the same way if given the opportunity.

A weak man normally produces a partner with BPD or BD.

[venturalaw]

To sum it up, no one can really appreciate what it is like unless they have personal experience. When people hear the stories, they can not fathom how or why one would stay for one second in this type of relationship. What they don't know is that often the afflicted are so through no fault of their own. Mine had been abused as an infant and throughout her childhood. I'm not offering excuses, but providing an explanation as to why when one is involved in such a relationship it is often guilt that keeps one from running for the hills: How can I leave her when it wasn't her fault that she turned out this way? And, often times the afflicted can be extremely charming and anything but dull, thus providing a dim glimmer of hope (which is ALWAYS false hope). Also, they are often quite intelligent, gifted and/or accomplished. But the bottom line is that eventually they will bring you down. One has to get out of the relationship because it is truly toxic.

Your mistake is in thinking your girl is different.

They all have excuses, they all behave the same way if given the opportunity.

A weak man normally produces a partner with BPD or BD.

In your world all women are the same and mental illness is non-existent. However, if BPD or BD is diagnosed, the cause is solely attributable to the existence of weak men. Interesting.

[ludditeman]

In your world all women are the same and mental illness is non-existent. However, if BPD or BD is diagnosed, the cause is solely attributable to the existence of weak men. Interesting.

A bit of 'will power' and 'self control' seems to go a long way to solving minor mental problems.

Coddling and indulgence seems to exacerbate these conditions.

I'm not saying these conditions don't exist, merely that much of the time and for many sufferers they are trivial.

There are also studies suggesting BPD could be diagnosed for much of the population (both male and female), which would make it not a 'disorder' but in fact normal human behavior.

[venturalaw]

In your world all women are the same and mental illness is non-existent. However, if BPD or BD is diagnosed, the cause is solely attributable to the existence of weak men. Interesting.

A bit of 'will power' and 'self control' seems to go a long way to solving minor mental problems.

Coddling and indulgence seems to exacerbate these conditions.

The operative word is 'minor' problems. One who is seriously afflicted often is so due to the stagnation of proper brain formation during the very early years of development. The brain chemistry is affected during traumatic events during childhood - such as beatings. I've studied this, and personally experienced it in others.

[Mario2008]

Your mistake is in thinking your girl is different.

They all have excuses, they all behave the same way if given the opportunity.

A weak man normally produces a partner with BPD or BD.

Your statement is rediculous and off topic.

Try to help the OP with advise, otherwise there is the option of not replying.

[rosbif]

Grateful for the sensible/thoughtful replies. 1st grade psychology doesn't carry any weight with me, ludditeman.

venturalaw - you didn't mention how many bipolar and BPD sufferers are often not only intelligent, but also highly manipulative. That can't make diagnosis very easy. I've actually had contact with her psychiatrist on a few occasions, and it was only when I filled in the selectively omitted information from my wife's contributions in therapy sessions, that the psychiatrist revised her conclusions from straightforward depression, to bipolar syndrome, and later (ie a couple of days ago), BPD.

[venturalaw]

Grateful for the sensible/thoughtful replies. 1st grade psychology doesn't carry any weight with me, ludditeman.

venturalaw - you didn't mention how many bipolar and BPD sufferers are often not only intelligent, but also highly manipulative. That can't make diagnosis very easy. I've actually had contact with her psychiatrist on a few occasions, and it was only when I filled in the selectively omitted information from my wife's contributions in therapy sessions, that the psychiatrist revised her conclusions from straightforward depression, to bipolar syndrome, and later (ie a couple of days ago), BPD.

Let's face it, manipulation is the life-force of those afflicted. And, to be a master at manipulation one requires intelligence. I never will forget when I came to the realization that the one with whom I was involved viewed honest people as fools, and those who lie well as people deserving admiration. And there was absolutely no way I could convince her that this way of thinking is prohibitive to one's growth. My feeling "What a tremendous waste of talent" was ever present for her manipulation was masterful.

[cdnvic]

Mental health diagnosis isn't the topic here. Please stick to custody law.