Choiceless Awareness

[huli]

Gents and gals

Interesting lately the discussion of whether a teacher is strictly necessary or not. Questions do come up, and can't be answered or illuminated by mere beginners, now can they?

In my meditation practice, and my reading to inform it, I've become interested in choiceless awareness, the state of attention without any object, that can be experienced once the body settles down, and the breath becomes subtle. Certain teachers speak of this meditation as being beyond breath-consciousness or other focus-consciousness. However, as I understand it, in Vipasanna the mind examines the 5 aggregates (the best example) for the 3 universal characteristics, or notes any of the fleeting 4 foundations of mindfulness as experienced. In essence there is still a focal point of awareness, whereas with the choiceless awareness, the idea is not to have one. The attitude towards thoughts seems completely different. One notices and examines thoughts however briefly, or focuses on contemplating the essential charcteristics, whereas choiceless awareness would only return to emptiness as it's process. Or something like that.

I grant you that either way is gonna be of benefit, even great benefit, but I'd be interested in knowing if you experienced meditators would have any take on this?

Many thanks

[rockyysdt]

I'm new to choiceless awareness.

What practice do you implement to use it?

My understanding is the Mindfulness or Awareness is living in the present.

Focusing on the breathe (a single point of concentration) is a simple way of being in the present.

When we are mindful of our thoughts, our body, our feelings and the things around us we are in the present.

When we start to think about past events and memories, and future possibilities then we have lost the awareness of the present.

When we become aware that our mind has drifted, with metta to ourselves, we gently come back to the present.

I find focusing on the breathe is a good way to return to the present as it seems to act as an anchor for my wandering mind.

How does choiceless awareness differ?

Edited October 4, 2011 by rockyysdt

[huli]

I'm new to choiceless awareness.

What practice do you implement to use it?

My understanding is the Mindfulness or Awareness is living in the present.

Focusing on the breathe (a single point of concentration) is a simple way of being in the present.

When we are mindful of our thoughts, our body, our feelings and the things around us we are in the present.

When we start to think about past events and memories, and future possibilities then we have lost the awareness of the present.

When we become aware that our mind has drifted, with metta to ourselves, we gently come back to the present.

I find focusing on the breathe is a good way to return to the present as it seems to act as an anchor for my wandering mind.

How does choiceless awareness differ?

A couple of books I have that refer to it are Breath by Breath (by Larry Rosenberg) and The Meditator's Atlas (by Matthew Flickstein). It looks to me like the definition is to not have any primary object like the breath. This is pretty much for really experienced meditators I would gather. According to Rosenberg, eventually the mind tires of generating sensations, volitional formations, or any other state, and then you just stay with a profound alert silence. Or something like that. Is this state the real meditation that is best practice when the mind has been sufficiently tuned through a preliminary practice of focusing on the breath?

Googling choiceless awareness will provide a short summary by Flickstein, and you might be interested in the Wikipedia entry that says actually Krishnamurti is largely responsible for bringing the term up.

I don't have any great accomplishments, and am certainly not, or trying to be, a teacher. I'm just saying.

Thanks for the input.

[rockyysdt]

A couple of books I have that refer to it are Breath by Breath (by Larry Rosenberg) and The Meditator's Atlas (by Matthew Flickstein). It looks to me like the definition is to not have any primary object like the breath. This is pretty much for really experienced meditators I would gather. According to Rosenberg, eventually the mind tires of generating sensations, volitional formations, or any other state, and then you just stay with a profound alert silence. Or something like that. Is this state the real meditation that is best practice when the mind has been sufficiently tuned through a preliminary practice of focusing on the breath?

It sounds like Zen practice.

[IMA_FARANG]

From my Zen based perspective what you may call "choiceless awareness" is what I might call "every moment mindfulness" or possibly "every minute Zen". But don't get hung up on those terms...they are just names made of words... in Zen terms they are like "a finger pointing at the moon reflected on still water" and have no independent meaning.

TNH himself uses the term "every minute mindfulness" in some of his writings.

As I interpret the term it means to be an observer, witout pre-conceptions (illusions or delusions) of an event/object/action. Yes it's possible, but it does take training to get to that point. Isn't that the point, however, of study and practice?

Nice to see you are apparently getting to that point.

And as to your original question about needing a teacher.

A teacher teaches you nothing, but a good teacher is a guide...the student has to learn himself/herself. The guide may show you the path, but he/she can not carry you there.

Or as I say, somewhat disrepectfully, if your bladder is full...can a teacher p--- for you?

Edited October 4, 2011 by IMA_FARANG

[Brucenkhamen]

As I understand it choiceless awareness means you don't take a choice of meditation object. If you are using the breath as your object then you've made a choice, if you are using the breath just as an anchor to return to when you get lost or there isn't much in the way of other objects then you've made a choice.

The trouble with choosing an object is that it's easy to start getting attached to observing that object and think that this is the main point of meditation, so people can get attached to observing the breath and get into a rut with it. Wheras (unless you are doing concentration practice) the object is only supposed to be like training wheels to help stablise present moment awareness.

Choiceless awareness is supposed to be an expansive and inclusive awareness so that everything the passes through your field of awareness is part of the meditation, it's not jumping from object to object like with noting practice.

I think the "and then you just stay with a profound alert silence" is correct, this is what is meant by "awareness", this state of unentangled knowing is what we're aiming for. Sayadaw U Teganiya encourages taking this awareness as your object and therefore strengthening, but if course this makes it not choiceless again.

[huli]

As I understand it choiceless awareness means you don't take a choice of meditation object. If you are using the breath as your object then you've made a choice, if you are using the breath just as an anchor to return to when you get lost or there isn't much in the way of other objects then you've made a choice.

The trouble with choosing an object is that it's easy to start getting attached to observing that object and think that this is the main point of meditation, so people can get attached to observing the breath and get into a rut with it. Wheras (unless you are doing concentration practice) the object is only supposed to be like training wheels to help stablise present moment awareness.

Choiceless awareness is supposed to be an expansive and inclusive awareness so that everything the passes through your field of awareness is part of the meditation, it's not jumping from object to object like with noting practice.

I think the "and then you just stay with a profound alert silence" is correct, this is what is meant by "awareness", this state of unentangled knowing is what we're aiming for. Sayadaw U Teganiya encourages taking this awareness as your object and therefore strengthening, but if course this makes it not choiceless again.

To just be aware. That's not "taking awareness as your object", as a dualistic choice. Many deep thinkers have postulated that dualism is the core delusion of man, and to overcome dualism is one way of conceiving the ultimate goal one hopes to reach by meditating in a passive awareness, or choiceless awareness, one could say. If anyone is interested in this, check out the last chapter of The Spectrum of Consciousness by Ken Wilbur.

Thanks for sharing your take on this, Brucenkhamen. That's what I was thinking too, you helped me to clarify my thoughts.

[RickThai]

I'm currently using a DVD entitled "Yin Meditation". It is based upon Taoist forms of Yoga, whereby you hold the poses for several minutes and mediatate until you reach a point of "alert awareness" of the present. The objective, as I understand it, is to use concentration on breathing and awareness of any pain you are experiencing to bring yourself into a spatial "awarness of allowing". Any thoughts that might come to you during this mediative state, are to be noted and let go. Eventually you should be aware of your "space" that surrounds any physical or mental events that you are experiencing in thepresent. These events then become unimportant and you transcend into a higher, spiritual level that is unique to you. You are now allowing, the spiritual present to become central in your awareness.

After just one session, I have felt more calm and centered than I have felt for a long time.

Respect to All,

Rick

[huli]

According to Wilber, there is consensus among many traditions, including Zen (thanks Rocky), that meditation can be described in three stages. First, active attention, a state of silence with a "speak I am listening" attitude. This results in the second stage, where all thoughts and mental chatter is suspended. Remaining with this silence, eventually, one may reach the third and final stage of pure timeless awareness without the primary dualism. There is not much that can be done to get to the third stage except keep meditating until it happens and don't sweat it.

I have recently read a book by Osho, where he describes meditation as taking the position of a witness observing the mind. There is no focus per se, just be a witness.

Hubert Benoit's "technique for timeless realization" is an additional description of how a listening or watching attitude without a focus is the key to meditation.

A choiceless awareness, if you will.

[rockyysdt]

According to Wilber, there is consensus among many traditions, including Zen (thanks Rocky), that meditation can be described in three stages. First, active attention, a state of silence with a "speak I am listening" attitude. This results in the second stage, where all thoughts and mental chatter is suspended. Remaining with this silence, eventually, one may reach the third and final stage of pure timeless awareness without the primary dualism. There is not much that can be done to get to the third stage except keep meditating until it happens and don't sweat it.

I have recently read a book by Osho, where he describes meditation as taking the position of a witness observing the mind. There is no focus per se, just be a witness.

Hubert Benoit's "technique for timeless realization" is an additional description of how a listening or watching attitude without a focus is the key to meditation.

A choiceless awareness, if you will.

To help me further develop my mindfulness (position as a witness observing the mind, the body, the breathe, feelings, & external world), I picture the witness as growing, causing the ego to diminish.

[Jawnie]

Emptiness, openness, pristine cognition, intrinsic awareness. These are some other descriptive terms.

[4evermaat]

As I understand it choiceless awareness means you don't take a choice of meditation object. If you are using the breath as your object then you've made a choice, if you are using the breath just as an anchor to return to when you get lost or there isn't much in the way of other objects then you've made a choice.

The trouble with choosing an object is that it's easy to start getting attached to observing that object and think that this is the main point of meditation, so people can get attached to observing the breath and get into a rut with it. Wheras (unless you are doing concentration practice) the object is only supposed to be like training wheels to help stablise present moment awareness.

Choiceless awareness is supposed to be an expansive and inclusive awareness so that everything the passes through your field of awareness is part of the meditation, it's not jumping from object to object like with noting practice.

I think the "and then you just stay with a profound alert silence" is correct, this is what is meant by "awareness", this state of unentangled knowing is what we're aiming for. Sayadaw U Teganiya encourages taking this awareness as your object and therefore strengthening, but if course this makes it not choiceless again.

To just be aware. That's not "taking awareness as your object", as a dualistic choice. Many deep thinkers have postulated that dualism is the core delusion of man, and to overcome dualism is one way of conceiving the ultimate goal one hopes to reach by meditating in a passive awareness, or choiceless awareness, one could say. If anyone is interested in this, check out the last chapter of The Spectrum of Consciousness by Ken Wilbur.

Thanks for sharing your take on this, Brucenkhamen. That's what I was thinking too, you helped me to clarify my thoughts.

Emptiness, openness, pristine cognition, intrinsic awareness. These are some other descriptive terms.

I think this 'choiceless awareness' is what Jed McKenna [Spiritual Enlightenment: The Damnest Thing] calls "abiding, non-dual awareness" or "no-self" . Really no words can describe truth. Others who have taken the journey can merely leave a sign or papertrail to describe what they observed....their truth. Don Miguel Ruiz's [The Four Agreements] grandfather said the truth has to be experienced. Once you try to put your experience into words, it is a point of view.

There is nothing to find: This elusive "truth" is right in front of us. If you cannot see it, it is because your attachment to your point of view blocks out the truth. Using a teacher may be helpful, but the teacher is not responsible for your choices (or non-choices). Usually the student's ego is looking for something to latch onto, to take your attention away from actually waking up; taking the next step. Often times we leave the mainstream 'herd' and join a side 'herd'. When you are no longer attached to the herd (or anything for that matter), that's an indication that you are very close to your own self-actualization. If you are not getting closer to your goal, chances are whatever is in your way is just more knowledge to confuse you.

When asked in an interview what 'no-self' and 'abiding, non-dual awareness' meant, Jed replied that you cannot describe it with words. He only used those terms because he felt they were the least misleading. I really enjoyed the work of Jed McKenna and Don Miguel Ruiz, because they provide a practical, no-nonsense approach to what many people seemed to be looking for: "the truth" . Since truth always exists, the best way these masters "found it" is by removing what is not true. They use a systems approach to assist you in breaking down what is not true. Then words become a tool of communication only, you don't believe even yourself. Maia (Goddess of illusion) knows you very well; lies are very seductive.

There is an important point here that I think gets to the heart of the "choiceless awareness" paradox. There is really no point to "waking up", unless you have this gnawing dissatisfaction that drives you to remove what is not true. Your body makes 'choices', without your permission of course , so does the rest of nature. So why not make choices at the level of the mind also? Just like you cannot stop your body from living, you cannot stop the mind from dreaming. You cannot stop the continuous motion that we call "life". You cannot stop the dualism. Removing what is not true allows you to ultimately make "better" choices, based on truth and not all the lies and superstitions that [used to] control your mind. Choices that allow you to continue your 'heaven on earth', 'nirvana', 'ongoing romance', etc. This "choiceless awareness" that you seek is merely another point of view....just another way of being. It's up to you to explore the possibilities with this awareness.

Edited October 21, 2011 by 4evermaat

[IMA_FARANG]

In Zen terms what you are dscribing can also be known as "every minute mindfulness" or somrtimes "every minute Zen".

Of course it may be applied to meditation...but why limit it to that?

Why not apply "every minute mindfulness" to each and every thing you do?

Of course, this may take training to accomplish.

Zen would probably say not training but learning to unlearn your attachment to learned habits.

Anyway there's a story that illustrates this "every minute Zen".

Once a Zen naster went to visit another old friemd, also a Zen master.

It was raining, so he brought an umbrella with him.

When he arrived he left his shoes and umbrella outside his friend's room.

After a while his friend asked him, "I know that you are a famous Zen master and well respected, but I must ask you, do you have "every minute Zen"? For example, I am sure you must have left your umbrella outside near your shoes. But did you leave your umbrella on the left or the right of your shoes? If, without going outside to check you could tell me the answer instantly, I woud say you had "every minute Zen".

Realising that he didn't instantly know that answer the Zen master went back and studied more until he truely had that "every minute Zen".

[huli]

As OP, it's nice to see that some of you all have kept this thread going. I found Brucenkhamen and Rocky's comments to be the most helpful.

I was originally inquiring about what are really just the mechanics of meditation.

Focusing on my breathing for a while, eventually the quiet awareness in between breaths increases. I am aware that I am not thinking. This would be the choiceless awareness. When thoughts emerge, as they do, and I notice, I return to focus on my breathing to stop the thought and the thinking. This is not choiceless, But the effort is to return to the choiceless state.

My hope was to entice experienced meditators to comment if this sounded right to them, or not. I'm not desperately needing help, or feel lost, or anything, I just thought why not toss this out on this Buddhist Forum.

Thanks to anyone who contributes.

[Brucenkhamen]

Focusing on my breathing for a while, eventually the quiet awareness in between breaths increases. I am aware that I am not thinking. This would be the choiceless awareness. When thoughts emerge, as they do, and I notice, I return to focus on my breathing to stop the thought and the thinking. This is not choiceless, But the effort is to return to the choiceless state.

My hope was to entice experienced meditators to comment if this sounded right to them, or not. I'm not desperately needing help, or feel lost, or anything, I just thought why not toss this out on this Buddhist Forum.

In Choiceless Awareness it should make no difference whether you are thinking or not thinking, breathing or not breathing etc as all of these are objects that arise and pass away within the field of awareness. However because thinking has the ability to carry you away from awareness this makes the times when thinking is not present seem so much more vivid and immediate, so much more right, however you can learn to be aware of thinking as well and just notice it arising and passing without getting caught in it.

Awareness should be like an empty sky into which clouds come and go, rain comes and goes, wind etc, it's like a monitor of a thread of events of cause and affect.

[rockyysdt]

Focusing on my breathing for a while, eventually the quiet awareness in between breaths increases. I am aware that I am not thinking. This would be the choiceless awareness. When thoughts emerge, as they do, and I notice, I return to focus on my breathing to stop the thought and the thinking. This is not choiceless, But the effort is to return to the choiceless state.

My hope was to entice experienced meditators to comment if this sounded right to them, or not. I'm not desperately needing help, or feel lost, or anything, I just thought why not toss this out on this Buddhist Forum.

In Choiceless Awareness it should make no difference whether you are thinking or not thinking, breathing or not breathing etc as all of these are objects that arise and pass away within the field of awareness. However because thinking has the ability to carry you away from awareness this makes the times when thinking is not present seem so much more vivid and immediate, so much more right, however you can learn to be aware of thinking as well and just notice it arising and passing without getting caught in it.

Awareness should be like an empty sky into which clouds come and go, rain comes and goes, wind etc, it's like a monitor of a thread of events of cause and affect.

I'm learning that the key to silent sitting and focus on the breath is to improve ones concentration and to bring one into the present moment.

To bring about present awareness, rather than attachment to the past, or dreaming of the future.

To actively suppress or be averse to thoughts as they arise will cause one to miss insight and growth of wisdom.

Thoughts will always occur.

Observe them in the present moment without attachment as they float past.

We gently refocus on the breathe when we notice we have moved from awareness in the present and have entered into chains of thoughts with corresponding attachment (aversion/delusion/greed).

You can have awareness in the present, whilst observing thoughts which arise.

Once you become lost in these thoughts, this is when you lose present awareness.

We should never punish ourselves when we become aware we have lost present awareness, as this is normal.

Simply be friendly to yourself and refocus on the breathe.

Edited October 23, 2011 by rockyysdt