Serious Questions, Serious Decisions

[ivan96822]

I am brand new to this forum and relatively new to this website, but I have some specific information to share and request.

I am a 33-year-old white male currently living in Hawaii. I always wanted to visit Thailand since I was a boy, and in the summer of this year, I had the pleasure of staying in Bangkok. I enjoyed every minute of it.

I am considering relocating to Bangkok for several reasons, but mainly to start fresh and enjoy a more active social and nightlife.

I am currently a high school teacher in Honolulu and have approximately three years of full time teaching experience. I am currently teaching American Literature to eleventh graders, and British literature to twelfth graders. In the past, I have taught grades 7, 9-12. I have a Bachelor's Degree in English, a Teaching Certificate (State of Hawaii), and a Master's Degree in Education. I have some specifics that I hope some of you here in this forum could answer. They are:

1. What type of pay (with my experience) could I hope to earn per month?

2. What is a typical work week like? What are the hours (typically)? How many hours per week? Is there a prep period?

3. What are the names of two or three public high schools in the Bangkok area?

I have done lots of research on this, but would appreciate this input from a farang teacher or teachers in Thailand.

FYI, I am well aware of all the "ups and downs" of Thailand (ex. working girls, pollution, corruption, heat, racism, food, traffic, noise, etc). As I mentioned earlier, I loved my entire experience in Bangkok (good things, awkward/weird things, and bad things). Please respond with relevant information to this forum posting.

Thank you for reading this.

[Tywais]

I'm moving this to the Teaching forum for better responses.

[samran]

Given you are a qualified teacher with a bit of experience under your belt, if I was you I'd register and attend the recruitment seminars/fair held by international schools globally. They are a bit of a roadshow so you have to travel to the fair nearest you.

If you get hired through one of these, then you'd get a nice package - for a proper international school perhaps 120K/month + accom + health + flights home etc etc.

Not sure why you want to work for a public school though unless you fancy living on 25% of the salary and none of the benefits...

[ivan96822]

Given you are a qualified teacher with a bit of experience under your belt, if I was you I'd register and attend the recruitment seminars/fair held by international schools globally. They are a bit of a roadshow so you have to travel to the fair nearest you.

If you get hired through one of these, then you'd get a nice package - for a proper international school perhaps 120K/month + accom + health + flights home etc etc.

Not sure why you want to work for a public school though unless you fancy living on 25% of the salary and none of the benefits...

I may be a farang, but don't tell me $4000 US/ $120K Thai Baht a month. If that's the case, why have I been working in the States so long?

With all due respect, please extrapolate this inquiry...Anyways, thanks for the speedy response and i look forward to any insight you might have.

thanks again,

ivan

[samran]

Given you are a qualified teacher with a bit of experience under your belt, if I was you I'd register and attend the recruitment seminars/fair held by international schools globally. They are a bit of a roadshow so you have to travel to the fair nearest you.

If you get hired through one of these, then you'd get a nice package - for a proper international school perhaps 120K/month + accom + health + flights home etc etc.

Not sure why you want to work for a public school though unless you fancy living on 25% of the salary and none of the benefits...

I may be a farang, but don't tell me $4000 US/ $120K Thai Baht a month. If that's the case, why have I been working in the States so long?

With all due respect, please extrapolate this inquiry...Anyways, thanks for the speedy response and i look forward to any insight you might have.

thanks again,

ivan

What do you mean 'please extrapolate this inquiry'??

If you have questions, why not ask them. My wife is an international school teacher so we've been through the process before....but she's been out of it a long time now.

Nevertheless, it gives you an idea of what is possible.

Edited October 10, 2011 by samran

[ivan96822]

Given you are a qualified teacher with a bit of experience under your belt, if I was you I'd register and attend the recruitment seminars/fair held by international schools globally. They are a bit of a roadshow so you have to travel to the fair nearest you.

If you get hired through one of these, then you'd get a nice package - for a proper international school perhaps 120K/month + accom + health + flights home etc etc.

Not sure why you want to work for a public school though unless you fancy living on 25% of the salary and none of the benefits...

I may be a farang, but don't tell me $4000 US/ $120K Thai Baht a month. If that's the case, why have I been working in the States so long?

With all due respect, please extrapolate this inquiry...Anyways, thanks for the speedy response and i look forward to any insight you might have.

thanks again,

ivan

What do you mean 'please extrapolate this inquiry'??

If you have questions, why not ask them. My wife is an international school teacher so we've been through the process before....but she's been out of it a long time now.

Nevertheless, it gives you an idea of what is possible.

So teaching internationally is a respected thing...Any pointers on where to look for such work in Bangkok? Thanks for the speedy reply. To be blunt, I am not an unqualified drunkard farang just trying to get by in Bkk. I've enjoyed my career and hope to continue enjoying it.

[samran]

Yes it is respected and it does pay rather well all things considered.

Simple google of 'international school fair' should put you on the right path.

[aussiebebe]

You should look for work by attending International school fairs. any search engine will throw up countless lists of all international schools in Thailand - all schools have detailed websites packed with information about what the working week might entail. You could read the school fees these schools charge and work out the top paying schools, no problem. As samran mentioned, you do not want to work at any public school in Thailand.

There are many companies like 'Search Associates' that help teachers like yourself find work - apply to them and they'll give all the advice you need. You'll see on their site, for example, that they have fairs early next year in Toronto, San Francisco and Massachusetts - any one of which you could apply to and attend.

I think the main advice is not to sell yourself short by 'having' to work in a particular place ie Thailand, you need to be in the right place at the right time and go where the jobs and opportunities are. It's easy to get stuck in a rut and the global economic downturn has affected most private school enrollments in Thailand as much as the US.

[kurnell]

Isn't there an international school fair in Thailand next year?

[Tywais]

Isn't there an international school fair in Thailand next year?

BANGKOK - JANUARY

Royal Orchid Sheraton Hotel

Dates: Jan 8 - Jan 11, 2012

Organizer: Michael Williams

International Fairs

[purushanti]

2 helpful sites:

www.ajarn.com

www.stickmanbangkok.com

The latter has a 40,000 word article on education here and occasional submissions in re personal experience teaching.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Nothing about either of those sites has much to do with real international schools in Thailand, which is the only place the OP should consider if he doesn't want to waste his time and experience and be vastly underpaid, while likely working in one of the least professional school environments he's probably ever experienced- most Thai schools can't keep experienced, licensed teachers from native English speaking countries because they won't put up with the BS. OP should stick with the job fair or look on the standard international school recruiting sites- it's better if you get hired from abroad.

[ivan96822]

^Nothing about either of those sites has much to do with real international schools in Thailand, which is the only place the OP should consider if he doesn't want to waste his time and experience and be vastly underpaid, while likely working in one of the least professional school environments he's probably ever experienced- most Thai schools can't keep experienced, licensed teachers from native English speaking countries because they won't put up with the BS. OP should stick with the job fair or look on the standard international school recruiting sites- it's better if you get hired from abroad.

I must ask...What does "OP" stand for? Good or bad, I'd like to know.

Thanks.

[Tywais]

I must ask...What does "OP" stand for? Good or bad, I'd like to know.

'Original Poster' or 'Original Post' of the topic depending on context.

[Scott]

One off-topic post has been deleted. The forum is for/about teaching in Thailand.

[ivan96822]

I am familiar with both the ajarn site and the stickman site and would agree with IJust. There is zero mention or working at an international school on those sites.

Thank you, though, for well-meaning intentions.

Any international schools teachers here on this site? It would be nice to hear your input regarding this subject.

IJust, pray tell: what are some of the "most unprofessional" teaching situations to which you are referring to? I can imagine all sorts of things, but perhaps you can put your finger down on three or four "typical" unprofessional teaching practices you have noticed in Thailand?

Thanks again.

[Ijustwannateach]

OP, I think you need to refer to my reply to the other thread you started. MOST of your questions will be answered in more detail than you would want if you follow those instructions. However, most of the threads on this forum are about Thai public schools and not-the-top-tier 'international' and/or religious private schools, NOT the 'real' top-tier international schools. To compare the international schools with Thai schools is really apples and oranges, down to the school schedules which are (at least until next year) completely different.

If you want to know about Thai public and private schools, you should follow the instructions I gave you on the other thread- that will easily cover types of schools, names, varieties, locations, salaries, qualifications, various descriptions of working conditions and complaints regarding them, etc.

There isn't a lot of material on here from the teachers who work at the full international schools, AFAIK. I would suggest searching online for places like ISB, NIST, Shrewsbury, Harrow, Bangkok Pattana, and so forth for more details (I am pretty sure all of them have detailed websites in English).

One question which deserves answering specifically here (I don't think it has been exactly answered in this context elsewhere) is your last one about unprofessional work environments, specifically with respect to someone who is used to teaching in an English speaking country.

Not all of the things on this list happen at every school, but at least a few of them have happened at every school I've seen in Thailand:

1. School days cancelled at administrative whim with little or no notice, sometimes up to 10% or more of school days, in addition to very, very generous national holidays

2. Effectively, a national policy exists which does not allow students to fail, ever.

3. Administration is unidirectionally hierarchical and may not take kindly to feedback, even helpful or positive feedback

4. Unclear/multiple lines of authority and responsibility

5. Reneging or outright breaking of terms of a contract, lying and/or criminal incompetence regarding knowledge of contract law, labour law, and/or laws regarding the employment of foreigners

6. Undue parental influence on school management decisions depending on wealth and/or status

7. Poor or inappropriate resources and/or miserly or overly bureaucratic policies regarding acquisition of more

8. Little to no awareness of student mental or emotional or even physical disorders in a classroom context; no awareness or checking for learning disabilities

9. Very little understanding of any kind of privacy policy for students or employees; also few safeguards on computer use by children

10. Low awareness of staff re. safety issues around students - i.e. re. electricity, power tools, industrial chemicals, etc.

11. Lack of transparency regarding entrance systems, grading, financial matters involving students

12. Graft frequently driving policy decisions

13. Poor communication between/on behalf of foreign staff and Thais, and/or foreign staff constantly treated as '2nd class staff'

14. Lack of planning from the top down leading to 'emergency demands' for impossible things to be done immediately

15. Hiring foreign staff indiscriminately leading to high levels of dysfunction and (usually) turnover

By reading the recommended threads, you will find more specific stories about many of these things.

[ivan96822]

OP, I think you need to refer to my reply to the other thread you started. MOST of your questions will be answered in more detail than you would want if you follow those instructions. However, most of the threads on this forum are about Thai public schools and not-the-top-tier 'international' and/or religious private schools, NOT the 'real' top-tier international schools. To compare the international schools with Thai schools is really apples and oranges, down to the school schedules which are (at least until next year) completely different.

If you want to know about Thai public and private schools, you should follow the instructions I gave you on the other thread- that will easily cover types of schools, names, varieties, locations, salaries, qualifications, various descriptions of working conditions and complaints regarding them, etc.

There isn't a lot of material on here from the teachers who work at the full international schools, AFAIK. I would suggest searching online for places like ISB, NIST, Shrewsbury, Harrow, Bangkok Pattana, and so forth for more details (I am pretty sure all of them have detailed websites in English).

One question which deserves answering specifically here (I don't think it has been exactly answered in this context elsewhere) is your last one about unprofessional work environments, specifically with respect to someone who is used to teaching in an English speaking country.

Not all of the things on this list happen at every school, but at least a few of them have happened at every school I've seen in Thailand:

1. School days cancelled at administrative whim with little or no notice, sometimes up to 10% or more of school days, in addition to very, very generous national holidays

2. Effectively, a national policy exists which does not allow students to fail, ever.

3. Administration is unidirectionally hierarchical and may not take kindly to feedback, even helpful or positive feedback

4. Unclear/multiple lines of authority and responsibility

5. Reneging or outright breaking of terms of a contract, lying and/or criminal incompetence regarding knowledge of contract law, labour law, and/or laws regarding the employment of foreigners

6. Undue parental influence on school management decisions depending on wealth and/or status

7. Poor or inappropriate resources and/or miserly or overly bureaucratic policies regarding acquisition of more

8. Little to no awareness of student mental or emotional or even physical disorders in a classroom context; no awareness or checking for learning disabilities

9. Very little understanding of any kind of privacy policy for students or employees; also few safeguards on computer use by children

10. Low awareness of staff re. safety issues around students - i.e. re. electricity, power tools, industrial chemicals, etc.

11. Lack of transparency regarding entrance systems, grading, financial matters involving students

12. Graft frequently driving policy decisions

13. Poor communication between/on behalf of foreign staff and Thais, and/or foreign staff constantly treated as '2nd class staff'

14. Lack of planning from the top down leading to 'emergency demands' for impossible things to be done immediately

15. Hiring foreign staff indiscriminately leading to high levels of dysfunction and (usually) turnover

By reading the recommended threads, you will find more specific stories about many of these things.

Interestingly enough, this comes as no surprise to me. Thanks for the details. The teaching profession, in my eyes, has always been one of trial by fire. This only affirms what I figured teaching in a third-world country would be like. Thanks again for your generous reply. I'll heed your advice.

[ivan96822]

OP, I think you need to refer to my reply to the other thread you started. MOST of your questions will be answered in more detail than you would want if you follow those instructions. However, most of the threads on this forum are about Thai public schools and not-the-top-tier 'international' and/or religious private schools, NOT the 'real' top-tier international schools. To compare the international schools with Thai schools is really apples and oranges, down to the school schedules which are (at least until next year) completely different.

If you want to know about Thai public and private schools, you should follow the instructions I gave you on the other thread- that will easily cover types of schools, names, varieties, locations, salaries, qualifications, various descriptions of working conditions and complaints regarding them, etc.

There isn't a lot of material on here from the teachers who work at the full international schools, AFAIK. I would suggest searching online for places like ISB, NIST, Shrewsbury, Harrow, Bangkok Pattana, and so forth for more details (I am pretty sure all of them have detailed websites in English).

One question which deserves answering specifically here (I don't think it has been exactly answered in this context elsewhere) is your last one about unprofessional work environments, specifically with respect to someone who is used to teaching in an English speaking country.

Not all of the things on this list happen at every school, but at least a few of them have happened at every school I've seen in Thailand:

1. School days cancelled at administrative whim with little or no notice, sometimes up to 10% or more of school days, in addition to very, very generous national holidays

2. Effectively, a national policy exists which does not allow students to fail, ever.

3. Administration is unidirectionally hierarchical and may not take kindly to feedback, even helpful or positive feedback

4. Unclear/multiple lines of authority and responsibility

5. Reneging or outright breaking of terms of a contract, lying and/or criminal incompetence regarding knowledge of contract law, labour law, and/or laws regarding the employment of foreigners

6. Undue parental influence on school management decisions depending on wealth and/or status

7. Poor or inappropriate resources and/or miserly or overly bureaucratic policies regarding acquisition of more

8. Little to no awareness of student mental or emotional or even physical disorders in a classroom context; no awareness or checking for learning disabilities

9. Very little understanding of any kind of privacy policy for students or employees; also few safeguards on computer use by children

10. Low awareness of staff re. safety issues around students - i.e. re. electricity, power tools, industrial chemicals, etc.

11. Lack of transparency regarding entrance systems, grading, financial matters involving students

12. Graft frequently driving policy decisions

13. Poor communication between/on behalf of foreign staff and Thais, and/or foreign staff constantly treated as '2nd class staff'

14. Lack of planning from the top down leading to 'emergency demands' for impossible things to be done immediately

15. Hiring foreign staff indiscriminately leading to high levels of dysfunction and (usually) turnover

By reading the recommended threads, you will find more specific stories about many of these things.

Interestingly enough, this comes as no surprise to me. Thanks for the details. The teaching profession, in my eyes, has always been one of trial by fire. This only affirms what I figured teaching in a third-world country would be like. Thanks again for your generous reply. I'll heed your advice.

Okay, here's another random question regarding this topic, and perhaps my fellow forum members can assist me with an answer?

Typically, what is the average age of your typical farang teacher in Bangkok? 23-year-olds fresh out of college? Early 30s like me, looking for a bit of a fresh start? Burn-outs in their 40s?

Let me know. I appreciate any type of insight you can provide.

[Scott]

In my experience for farang teachers, and it has varied from time to time, the field is dominated by males, probably about 75%. The average age would be about 35++, but that doesn't say too much, since there is a spike of younger teachers and a second spike for older teachers.

When you add Filipino (and other Asians), the whole thing evens out. A lot of female teachers and a much younger.

I will take a look at some of our current stats on teachers, time permitting.

[ivan96822]

In my experience for farang teachers, and it has varied from time to time, the field is dominated by males, probably about 75%. The average age would be about 35++, but that doesn't say too much, since there is a spike of younger teachers and a second spike for older teachers.

When you add Filipino (and other Asians), the whole thing evens out. A lot of female teachers and a much younger.

I will take a look at some of our current stats on teachers, time permitting.

Thanks again for the speedy reply, Scott. As time permits, I look forward to your input on the current stats on teachers....

Okay, gotta ask: what does a typical male teacher wear on a regular day of school? I can pull off jeans, aloha shirts, and sandals here, but I know the business community in Thailand is more formal. Surely not a tie with long sleeves every day? Maybe a tucked in shirt with nice pants? I know how sticky it is out there, and I could not fathom long sleeves and a tie...

[Scott]

Shirt and tie; long sleeves preferred, but not always required unless you have tattoos. Sandals aren't permitted.

Appearance is VERY important in Thailand. Much more so than comfort.

[Tywais]

Shirt and tie; long sleeves preferred, but not always required unless you have tattoos. Sandals aren't permitted.

Appearance is VERY important in Thailand. Much more so than comfort.

When I started working at the university as a senior researcher but before being invited to lecture I wore Jeans and pull over shirts and sandals. Very shortly after I got married when I finished showering my wife had dark dress slacks and long sleeve white shirt laying out on the bed - guess that was a hint. She said I needed to dress properly as a university ajarn. Been wearing that way since and can really sense the difference in attitudes toward me plus it is just plain more comfortable with light dress slacks and button up shirts.

Never had to wear a tie though and most ajarns I know don't except on special occasions. But this is university level and may be different.

[tonititan]

In my experience for farang teachers, and it has varied from time to time, the field is dominated by males, probably about 75%. The average age would be about 35++, but that doesn't say too much, since there is a spike of younger teachers and a second spike for older teachers.

When you add Filipino (and other Asians), the whole thing evens out. A lot of female teachers and a much younger.

I will take a look at some of our current stats on teachers, time permitting.

My experience has been different. In my international school, if you look at the whole school combinied, there is a larger number of female teachers. However, Thailand does attract a lot of male teachers, so the proportion of males is a bit higher than it would probably be in the States.

[samran]

In my experience for farang teachers, and it has varied from time to time, the field is dominated by males, probably about 75%. The average age would be about 35++, but that doesn't say too much, since there is a spike of younger teachers and a second spike for older teachers.

When you add Filipino (and other Asians), the whole thing evens out. A lot of female teachers and a much younger.

I will take a look at some of our current stats on teachers, time permitting.

My experience has been different. In my international school, if you look at the whole school combinied, there is a larger number of female teachers. However, Thailand does attract a lot of male teachers, so the proportion of males is a bit higher than it would probably be in the States.

At the school my wife has taught at, that has been the experience too.

[beano2274]

Worked at a University for many years, always wore a tie.

Now work in another job still wear a tie but on Fridays I bin it.

Edited October 21, 2011 by beano2274