Mole Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Fortunately, for me this just works automatically without needing to know or care about such technicalities and I'm sure it's the same for most who speak it as well as those trying to learn it too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wandrinstar Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Fortunately, for me this just works automatically without needing to know or care about such technicalities and I'm sure it's the same for most who speak it as well as those trying to learn it too... Sage words of a wise Mole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiSold Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 Dude that website Thai dialect site they copied and pasted the text from some weired font and now it's all messed up. There really isn't any good online source on the northern language is there. Seem like two types of people here. People who just want to speak the language and people who want to know it in depth. I think generally people don't want academics but it's the bridge between the two that will help me learn the language and make a lay-mans reference. Any more references to Thai Northern language please keep me posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Fortunately, for me this just works automatically without needing to know or care about such technicalities and I'm sure it's the same for most who speak it as well as those trying to learn it too... ThaiSold doesn't have schoolmates to beat Nuea into him and isn't a child any more. A rough conversion of spoken Nuea to Central Thai is indeed fairly straightforward: If tone is mid, falling or high, change initial /p t k h/ to [ph th kh r/. N.B The 6th tone does not count as 'falling'. Convert rising tone on live syllable starting /p t k/ to mid. Convert rising tone on dead syllable to low. Change /ny/ to /y/ (expressed in TV-type reading convention) Convert 6th tone to falling tone. Convert tones to Central Thai equivalents. It doesn't restore clusters, nor tell you which ones are possible. ThaiSold's immediate problem is decoding a written recording of Nuea words in Thai script with Siamese phonetic values. I haven't yet produced a guide to distinguishing high and rising tones on short dead syllables. I fear the best that can be done is a list. I've just noticed transcriptions ลับ and ซิบ for the equivalents of หสับ and สิบ, so the only ways of resolving the pronunciations are to recognise cognates, to look in a dictionary with a clearer way of presenting the phonetics, or ask or listen to a native speaker. Incidentally, the transcription ก้วยเตด for the word 'papaya', whose rough transliteration is กล้วยเทส and whose literal translation to Standard Thai is กล้วยเทศ, seems wrong to me. Shouldn't the transcription be ก้วยเต้ด? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Dude that website Thai dialect site they copied and pasted the text from some weired font and now it's all messed up. No, they just haven't labelled all the pages on the site as being in the Thai 8-bit encoding. In your browser, when you see the funny punctuation-type characters, go to the menu bar and choose something like view, choose encoding, Thai. The encoding, a.k.a. codepage, may also be identified as Windows-874 (which allows Microsoft extensions) or TIS-620 (the strictest form). (I presume you were getting a page title that resembled "ÅѡɳÐÀÒÉÒä·Â¶Ôè¹à˹×Í". The steps above fix that problem.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 If tone is mid, falling or high, change initial /p t k h/ to [ph th kh r/. N.B The 6th tone does not count as 'falling'. Correction: If tone is mid, falling or high, change initial /p t j k h/ to [ph th ch kh r/. N.B The 6th tone does not count as 'falling'.<snip> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) Yes, Papaya would technically be more correctly written as บะก้วยเต้ด however the only word which is said identical in tone as standard Thai is บะ the other two will have slightly difference in the tone, almost the same but not quite. However when I had a second thought, บะก้วยเตด may also be correct because เตด would have been pronounced automatically with the same tone. Some dialects may even pronounce it like บะก๊วยเต้ด This is the same that กะ is automatically pronounced as ก่ะ without the need to use the tone mark. There is even a wiktionary entry for บะก้วยเตด so I guess this must be the correct way to write it. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wiktionary/th/wiki/%E0%B8%9A%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%81%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%A2%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%95%E0%B8%94 Also search on google got "About 26,900,000" for บะก้วยเต้ด while "About 313,000,000" more than times more for บะก้วยเตด Strangely, I got that wiktionary entry as 2nd result on search for บะก้วยเต้ด while it's 3rd result on บะก้วยเตด Also another strangely is that the search for บะก้วยเตด showed mostly results of other things while บะก้วยเต้ด showed mostly of บะก้วยเตด บะก้วยเต้ด บะก๊วยเต้ด etc... Edited October 29, 2011 by Mole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I've reordered Mole's text to correspond to the logic of my reply, rather than to the logic of his reply. Yes, Papaya would technically be more correctly written as บะก้วยเต้ด however the only word which is said identical in tone as standard Thai is บะ the other two will have slightly difference in the tone, almost the same but not quite. ... Some dialects may even pronounce it like บะก๊วยเต้ด Thanks for the confirmation. Given that the Northern Thai tones, but not the system, vary quite a bit from province to province, our current objective (well, mine) is to identify which words a syllable will have the same tone as. So, for what was written as เตด, the question was, "Does it have the same tone as ปาก ตาก ปีก แปด or the same tone as มืด ลูก หลือด มีด?" Perhaps I should add เชือก and แคบ to the latter group. "D2L or D4L?" is a snappier way of putting the question - that is the benefit of using jargon. Of course, the answer could have been, "No, it's neither.". In this case, the answer was effectively 'as ลูก'. For the first syllable, the question might have been whether it was pronounced with the same tone as ก้าง เก้า ป้า ใต้ ต้ม or the same tone as ป่อ แม่. It wouldn't help at this level to say that it might sound like a high tone. Where that statement is useful is when trying to learn the 6th tone. However when I had a second thought, บะก้วยเตด may also be correct because เตด would have been pronounced automatically with the same tone. This is the same that กะ is automatically pronounced as ก่ะ without the need to use the tone mark. I don't understand the first statement. Mid consonant, dead no tone mark, long vowel => low tone in Thai. There does seem to be a problem with the use of tone marks on dead syllables in Thai. Possibly there just aren't enough reliable examples around. I can remember a well-educated Thai (French degree, and fluent in English) struggling to write วันพรุ่กนี้. There is even a wiktionary entry for บะก้วยเตด so I guess this must be the correct way to write it. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wiktionary/th/wiki/%E0%B8%9A%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%81%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%A2%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%95%E0%B8%94 Also search on google got "About 26,900,000" for บะก้วยเต้ด while "About 313,000,000" more than times more for บะก้วยเตด Strangely, I got that wiktionary entry as 2nd result on search for บะก้วยเต้ด while it's 3rd result on บะก้วยเตด Also another strangely is that the search for บะก้วยเตด showed mostly results of other things while บะก้วยเต้ด showed mostly of บะก้วยเตด บะก้วยเต้ด บะก๊วยเต้ด etc... Wiktionary could be useful. That gives the tones as L-F-F, but I don't think the author distinguishes the tones of B4 (falling) and C2 (6th tone). Adding that distinction makes the tones L-6-F. Google's odd behaviour is probably because Google thought you entered Siamese. Basically, Google has great difficulty with multi-word searches in Thai, because they don't demand that the user make the word boundaries clear. It therefore breaks the search string up on the assumption that it's Standard Thai, and makes allowance for typing errors. For one word searches, it is always better to use quotes. For "ก้วยเตด" I got 9,170 raw hits and for "ก้วยเต้ด" I got 28,800 raw hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ป่อ แม่ Those two words even though use the same tone mark, is not pronounced as the same tone.... You would have to write แหม่ if you want it to be pronounced same tone as ป่อ or write ป้อ for it to be same tone as แม่ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) However when I had a second thought, บะก้วยเตด may also be correct because เตด would have been pronounced automatically with the same tone. This is the same that กะ is automatically pronounced as ก่ะ without the need to use the tone mark. I don't understand the first statement. Mid consonant, dead no tone mark, long vowel => low tone in Thai. There does seem to be a problem with the use of tone marks on dead syllables in Thai. Possibly there just aren't enough reliable examples around. I can remember a well-educated Thai (French degree, and fluent in English) struggling to write วันพรุ่กนี้. I think the rules are something like if the word contain 2 mid consonants and long vowel = ้ tone in Thai. กาก ตาด ดาด ปาก ปาบ เปด แปก โปก อูก บืก อีก Not sure if they are even real words (which is irrelevant), but if written like that they are all read as: ก้าก ต้าด ด้าด ป้าก ป้าบ เป้ด แป้ก โป้ก อู้ก บื้ก อี้ด Edited October 30, 2011 by Mole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) ...struggling to write วันพรุ่กนี้. Do you mean *วันพรุ่งนี้ If so, it looks like he isn't the only one struggling... Also, I noticed that you write papaya as just "ก้วยเตด" You do know that it has to be said บะก้วยเตด, right? Not just "ก้วยเตด". Edited October 30, 2011 by Mole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keo Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ...struggling to write วันพรุ่กนี้. Do you mean *วันพรุ่งนี้ If so, it looks like he isn't the only one struggling.... or วันพูก? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keo Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) = Edited October 30, 2011 by keo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ป่อ แม่ Those two words even though use the same tone mark, is not pronounced as the same tone.... You would have to write แหม่ if you want it to be pronounced same tone as ป่อ or write ป้อ for it to be same tone as แม่ I should have written: For the first syllable, the question might have been whether it was pronounced with the same tone as ก้าง เก้า ป้า ใต้ ต้ม or the same tone as พ่อ แม่. Don't know how it happened - I was just copying lists! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) ...struggling to write วันพรุ่กนี้. Do you mean *วันพรุ่งนี้ If so, it looks like he isn't the only one struggling... No. I meant the old Central Thai form without the assimilation of ก. Also, I noticed that you write papaya as just "ก้วยเตด" You do know that it has to be said บะก้วยเตด, right? Not just "ก้วยเตด". I'm just quoting the dictionary form. But I'll take your point, that it can't be used without the บะ or มะ classificatory prefix. How would you describe their tones? I see a lot of variation in the the writing of the latter prefix. Edited October 30, 2011 by Richard W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think the rules are something like if the word contain 2 mid consonants and long vowel = ้ tone in Thai. กาก ตาด ดาด ปาก ปาบ เปด แปก โปก อูก บืก อีก Not sure if they are even real words (which is irrelevant), but if written like that they are all read as: ก้าก ต้าด ด้าด ป้าก ป้าบ เป้ด แป้ก โป้ก อู้ก บื้ก อี้ด Here are some real words to compare with: ปาก ตาก ปีก แปด. Don't you consider these to be siang ek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think the rules are something like if the word contain 2 mid consonants and long vowel = ้ tone in Thai. กาก ตาด ดาด ปาก ปาบ เปด แปก โปก อูก บืก อีก Not sure if they are even real words (which is irrelevant), but if written like that they are all read as: ก้าก ต้าด ด้าด ป้าก ป้าบ เป้ด แป้ก โป้ก อู้ก บื้ก อี้ด Here are some real words to compare with: ปาก ตาก ปีก แปด. Don't you consider these to be siang ek? Hmm, you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ...struggling to write วันพรุ่กนี้. Do you mean *วันพรุ่งนี้ If so, it looks like he isn't the only one struggling... No. I meant the old Central Thai form without the assimilation of ก. Also, I noticed that you write papaya as just "ก้วยเตด" You do know that it has to be said บะก้วยเตด, right? Not just "ก้วยเตด". I'm just quoting the dictionary form. But I'll take your point, that it can't be used without the บะ or มะ classificatory prefix. How would you describe their tones? I see a lot of variation in the the writing of the latter prefix. "dictionary form" May I ask which dictionary? Is that dictionary especially for northern Thai language? If so I find it highly strange they would just write only "ก้วยเตด" Try googling only ก้วยเตด and you'll only find it mentioned as บะก้วยเตด or variations but always with บะ บ่ะ บ่า etc It's only บะ for northern Thai and I told about it's tone in my first post about this issue already. Many fruit/vegetable names which happens to use มะ this in central Thai, if it's also called the same, บะ will be used in northern Thai instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 "dictionary form" May I ask which dictionary? Is that dictionary especially for northern Thai language? If so I find it highly strange they would just write only "ก้วยเตด" Peace Corps/Thailand Northern-Central Thai Dictionary (i.e. the one Keo linked to earlier in the topic.) - head word "ก้วยเตด" The Northern Thai Dictionary of Palm-Leaf Manuscripts / พจนานุกรมศัพท์ล้านนาเฉพาะคำที่ปรากฎในใบลาน - head word "กล้วยเตด" Lanna-Thai Dictionary Maefahluang Edition (MFL) - subsidiary head word "กล้วยเทส" - the head word is "กล้วย" The palm-leaf dictionary normally transliterates LOW TA (ᨴ) as tho thahan (ท), but sometimes it uses to tao (ต), as in this word. It gives the Central Thai form of the word as กส้วยเทศ. This dictionary gives tones, but there seem to be a lot of errors, or at least irregularities, and of course it deliberately omits the commonest words. The dictionary was rushed out for the 700th anniversary of the founding of Chiangmai, and they didn't finish the proof-reading. They didn't check the binding either - I got two sets of pp475-482 and none of pp483-498. I didn't undo the wrapping until I got back to England. Try googling only ก้วยเตด and you'll only find it mentioned as บะก้วยเตด or variations but always with บะ บ่ะ บ่า etc It's only บะ for northern Thai and I told about it's tone in my first post about this issue already. Many fruit/vegetable names which happens to use มะ this in central Thai, if it's also called the same, บะ will be used in northern Thai instead. MFL, which only addresses writing in tua mueang, has this to say at the end of the entry for the prefix บ่: บ่า, บะ, หม่า, หมะ, หมัก, หทาก ก็ว่า แต่ในพจนานุกรมนี้จะใช้คำนำหน้านี้เป็น บ่า เพียงรูปเดียว Google found several instances of หมะก้วยเตด. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Perhaps you it's better you go and ask anyone who speak it then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I find your dictionary entries puzzling. So, there are only entries for ก้วยเตด but none for บะก้วยเตด?? What about บะเขือ บะป๊าว? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Also, what about entries on บะแต๋ง and บะตึ๋น Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I find your dictionary entries puzzling. So, there are only entries for ก้วยเตด but none for บะก้วยเตด?? What about บะเขือ บะป๊าว? Also, what about entries on บะแต๋ง and บะตึ๋น MFL has no entry for บะก้วยเตด (or any variant lacking a classificatory prefix). It has entries with headwords เขือ, พล้าว/พ้าว, แตง and ตืน, and not with the prefixes. It does state that เขือ is almost always preceded by บะ, บ่า, หมัก or หมาก. For the others, it merely mentions the forms บ่าพล้าว, บ่าพ้าว and บ่าตืน. (Note that the MFL uses the traditional spelling, not Siamese sound values.) The palm leaf dictionary has no prefixed forms, and just has แตง. (Again, traditional spelling.) The Peace Corps dictionary doesn't have แตง, ตืน, or plain เขือ. You will be pleased to know that it does have บ่ะเขือส้ม and probably have mixed feelings about บ่ะป้าว, which I presume is an error for บ่ะป๊าว. Both the MFL and the palm leaf dictionary list lots of compounds starting with หมาก. The MFL often refers the reader to a form without the prefix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konjianghai Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) There is no real officially made Lanna language or i mean the good reform since MFL dictionary. Plus how can Lanna language be officially stated like what's in MFL dictionary anyway. MFL must have use Chiang Mai dialect as a base. Since people from all places speaking differently. Is sure okay to learn and took it from MFL or Peace corps as your basic foundation but keep in mind not everyone speak like those books. Living language is different then what's written. Be flexible, adjust to your situation, just because someone saying a bit different doesnt mean is not correct. Example บะ or บ่า they are the same, some people use บะ some use บ่า. Why? Due different ethnic background. Tai Yuan, Tai Yong, Tai Khuen, Tai Lue, Tai Yai ect... Edited November 3, 2011 by konjianghai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I don't know how to explain it. But the northern neutral tone is slightly different than the standard Thai. What do you mean by the 'neutral tone'? I can think of several possible meanings: The tone of the words มือ 'hand', นา 'field', งู 'snake', ลุง 'uncle' and ควาย 'buffalo'. The 'tone' of short open vowels in unstressed syllables when different to that of a stressed syllable. The tone of the words (or most of the words) มด 'ant', วัด 'temple', นก 'bird' and มัด 'bind'. I qualified choice 3 because the Peace Corps Dictionary has the writing หม้ด for the 'ant' word. Now, this may not be significant, for I have seen the tone of มด 'ant', วัด 'temple', นก 'bird' and มัด identified with the tone of high/mid mai tho (หน้า 'field', ข้าว 'rice', ห้า '5') rather than the tone of low mai tho (น้า 'mother's younger sibling', ไม้ 'wood' ม้า 'horse'). In jargon: 'I have seen the D4S tone identified with C1 rather than with C4'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I don't know how to explain it. But the northern neutral tone is slightly different than the standard Thai. What do you mean by the 'neutral tone'? I can think of several possible meanings: The tone of the words มือ 'hand', นา 'field', งู 'snake', ลุง 'uncle' and ควาย 'buffalo'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 For dead consonants, the only problem I can see is that both D2S and D4S are written as high tones, leading to unnecessary irresolvable confusion when the initial consonant is one of ก ต ป. It's worse than I thought for dead syllables with short vowels. Apart from ส and ห (and not ห nam), they've generally not used high consonants. As far as I can make out, there is sporadic use of mai tho with mid consonants to indicate the tone of นก 'bird' and ซัก 'wash'. Just to make sure I'm not talking rubbish, can someone confirm (or please correct me if I'm wrong) that NT ลุก 'to get up, rise' (written ลุ๊ก in the Peace Corps Dictionary (PCD)), NT ฮด 'to water' (written ฮ๊ด in the PCD) and NT มด 'ant' (written หม้ด in the PCD) have the same tone as the NT นก 'bird', ซัก 'to wash' and มัด 'to bind'. I've retyped the PCD except introduction and examples and added unambiguous tone information where I have managed to obtain it. I'm hoping a moderator will soon post a link to the file so that we can share and clarify it - and correct my typos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keo Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 To the OP, I recently heard that there are free เมือง lessons at Wat Pra Singh in Chiang Mai on Saturdays, 10am-12pm. Although I think this includes learning the script too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Your dictionary is wrong! I am surprised you haven't noticed that already. the character ล and ฮ (I think they are called high tone consonants) can not be written with ๊. When you want to have that tone, you use ้ and it will get the same tone as ๊ written with a neutral tone consonants. ก๊า บ๊า อ๊า will have same tone as น้า ล้า ฮ้า high tone consonants as well as low tone consonants can not be written with ๊ only neutral consonants กดตบปอจ can be written with ๊ Your dictionary is using a combination of letters which is illegal. Besides, those words ลุก ฮด นก ซัก มัด would be pronounced as if they had the ๊ tone, but actually has to be written correctly as ลุ้ก ฮ้ด น้ก ซั้ก มั้ด It would be as if you wrote ห๋า ผ๋า ข๋า (which is also illegal combination) in order to explain that it is pronounced with the ๋ tone. Also, to answer your question, ลุก ฮด นก ซัก มัด are all using the same tone. But this tone does not exist in standard Thai. It's similar to how you would have pronounced those words in standard Thai but not as long and deep. But definitely not the same tone. If you have someone say it to you in Muang and Thai, you will definitely hear the difference. Edited November 10, 2011 by Mole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Your dictionary is wrong! I am surprised you haven't noticed that already. I have. I had expected some system, but the only useful system in the Peace Corps dictionary is that mai tri on a dead syllable with a high consonant (อักษอรสูง) indicates the tone of ผัก 'vegetable', สุก 'cooked', ขุด 'to dig' and หมัด 'flea'. I much prefer the system in which one writes ห๋ก (for 'six') to indicate the tone, and this seems to be standard when using Siamese sound values. (This is the rising tone to many people, but the man from Chiangrai may have a different opinion). The character ล and ฮ (I think they are called high tone consonants) can not be written with ๊. Low tone class consonants (อักษอรต่ำ), actually. For the word for 'sleep', may one write ลั๋บ, or should one always write หลั๋บ? Also, to answer your question, ลุก ฮด นก ซัก มัด are all using the same tone. Thank you for the confirmation. What about the word for 'ant', strangely written with ho nam and mai tho as หม้ด? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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