Head Or Heart, Love Or Lust?

[Rickys]

Hi Guys,

Time for me to stop lurking in this forum and to start posting.

To be honest I need peoples help and advice before I go totally insane. From what I have read its probably a situation that most people can relate to, so here goes.

I am a fairly regular visitor to Thailand for holidays, travelling either once or twice a year. I normally visit the bars etc and know the score with money boys.

This time however it was different before going out I got chatting to a few guys online and arranged to meet one whilst I was out there. We exchanged emails and messages and as the holiday got nearer we spoke on the phone.

My Thai friend, I shall call him X, is not a money boy, he holds down a respectable professional job in an office where he earns about 20,000 baht a month.

I should also tell you X has a western BF that lives in Bangkok, but from what I can gather they have been together for a number of years but haven’t had any “intimacy” for a number of months now. Although X doesn’t want to leave him as he seems afraid of loosing the security.

Through my conversations with him before I came to Thailand I said I would go shopping with him, pay for meals, hotels etc and would give him some money before I left.

At first he was little hesitant at he didn’t want to think of himself as a money boy, but I told him it was just my way of helping him.

Anyway the holiday came, and lets just say the sparks flew sexually! He managed to get time off work and away from his BF, so we ventured to southern Thailand where we spent a fantastic week.

We never had a cross word. Although I did experience a “Thai mood” when we went into a club and someone I had met a couple of years came up to me and said hello. I think the green eyed monster came out in X and he went all quiet despite me re-assuring him it was a long time ago and wasn’t that good anyway. In the end we left the club as he clearly wasn’t happy. Once we got back to hotel he was fine and just said best not to talk about it! (Which I understand is the Thai way!)

Our last night came and we both got quite emotional, it shocked me to see a Thai cry as I had never seen that before, I understand they normally keep their emotions in check, so it seemed to be genuine. I also gave him the money I promised him that evening.

Now I am back home I am getting terribly emotional and miss X very much. I text him almost everyday and email regularly, although I have to say I do more of the texting and emailing than he does. (I need to get out more I know!) We have also spoken on the phone since I have come back and I have explained to him I think I have fallen for him, which I think he understands as he has said he feels the same.

So this is where I am at the moment. I can’t sleep properly, I can’t concentrate at work and all I can do is think about is going back to be with X. I get worried when I don’t hear from him as my overactive imagination is imagining him with other westerners. Which is probably likely and to be honest I don’t blame him.

We have talked about when I come back to Thailand next year, I want to see him again and he has said he “will wait for me” (A phrase we have all heard before), I do see him as a friend, as well as good bed partner, but am worried the longer it is before I go back to Thailand the more he is going to find Mr Right, maybe leave his BF, and forget about me.

I think what it boils down to is I am having trouble separating “reality,” from “fantasy” and distinguishing between “love” and “lust”.

My head is telling me its lust, but my heart is telling me love.

I guess some of you will want to give me a slap, but any advice would be very welcome before I loose it altogether!

[ChrisP]

Hi Rickys and welcome to our little part of ThaiVisa

I do, honestly, feel for your predicament....

But, I'm a sceptic, and I do have some questions.

X managed to get a week away from his bf... for a week.. without any problems..?

If I lived with my bf in Thailand and he went missing for a week.. I would have LOTS of questions.

Do you have PROOF of the Western BF..?

Do you have PROOF of the job..?

Thaink about EVERYTHING he told you - and see how much verifiable proof you have of "truth".

All I can say is that Thais are absolute masters at being the "Professional BF" or GF, and excellent at "being economical with the truth" too. They don't see it as lying, as we do. There are MANY shades of grey in Thailand.

The tears may have been real - at the time - but don't count on them remaining real. Sorry to be a little harsh.

I think you are in Lust.. not Love. And that what Thai guys are VERY good at creating. They can morph into whatever you want them to be.. at least for a short time.

I should know. It happened to me in 2003.

ChrisP

Mod.

[Ijustwannateach]

First warning flag: he has a "boyfriend." Would you have a serious date with someone who wasn't free in another country?

Second warning flag: he accepted money. No "decent" self-respecting guy with a job would react well to such blatant... bribery? payoff? Long term stuff might move into support and so forth, but you don't "give" money to someone you just met who's not a moneyboy.

Third warning flag: Chris already cautioned you about time away from the boyfriend- what about time away from the job? No job that pays a Thai 20K a month (which is a *very* good job by Thai standards) is going to give someone that much time off on a whim.

And as Chris said, you have no proof of the job, the BF, anything. I'm not squeamish to say it- people on the scene are big liars and cheats. That goes for the Thais, the farang, everyone. The Internet (where you met this guy) has the effect of making everything even dodgier.

If you had a good time, great! But don't go making long-range plans based on this, or any other Thai guy, who doesn't actually live with you.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

I met a guy on the internet. He showed up on our first night in Bangkok, did things with 8 inches I had never seen before, took his 1,000 baht cash, and we had him come back at other times. Not somebody who pretended anything.

I spent two centuries (or maybe they were decades; one forgets in their old age) as an IRS tax auditor. People will tell you ANYTHING if it means they save $100. "Sir, that's an interesting story. Do you have any certified documentation or neutral third party witnesses to verify your incredibly entertaining fantasy?"

I think I'm the guy who had IJWT rummaging through his boyfriend's wallet while BF lay semi-delerious on the sickbed. It's amazing what some Thai BF's carry in their wallet.

[Rickys]

Thanks for replies so far. Just to put a bit more meat on the bones!

In relation to his job, the company he works for has offices all over Thailand, where projects are taking place and he often has to go to them for weeks at a time. I have seen pictures of these offices with him in them so I tend to believe him on that score.

My understanding is he has 2 weeks off, paid leave, each year and he took one of those weeks when I went across. Although I do get the impression he can take unpaid leave, workloads permitting.

As for the BF this is a bit more of a tricky one. From what I have found out they have been together for many years but he is not happy as there is no physical contact. (Or so he says!) I also got told that this westerner can get nasty which was a bit alarming to say the least. (Maybe I am just a sucker for a sob story!) But he doesn’t want to leave him.

As his work often takes him away, and his family live in northern Thailand, its easy for him to find an excuse to get away from his BF, work commitments etc

I also gather that X has found out his BF is chatting to many other Thai’s and arranges things when X is away. So I guess what’s good for one is good for another.

Interestingly he seemed very nervous when we in Bangkok I think in case he bumped into his BF, always walking a little behind or in front of me and we didn’t venture into the bars. In fact he didn’t really relax until we left Bangkok.

My head is telling me even though he states he isn’t a money boy, he technically is else we wouldn’t take the cash. Although he did take it, he was embarrassed about doing so, which was the point that made me thing, ‘OK this guy is different.’

I have come round to the fact he will have sex with other westerners, I would prefer not to know about it, as long as we can meet up when I go across next year and we can repeat the fantastic time!

I just hope maybe he will be one of the different ones and keep in touch so as we can meet again. To me he seems a genuine guy, different from the commercial money boys, but as you say and from reading on here aren’t they all! I would love to know what goes on in a Thai guys head!

Maybe us Farang are just “flying wallets” at the end of the day and I am being a little foolish with my gushy emails and texts.

I would be interested to know about your experience Chris and any other experiences people have had and how they handled it.

Thanks for keeping me sane guys I really appreciate it!

[Warts and all]

What I don't understand is why tourists think they have to pay Thai guys money at the end of a holiday if they aren't money boys? IMO it cheapens the whole affair and is rather degrading to the guy. No wonder he was embarrassed to take it. Just because he did take it doesn't make him a money boy. He probably thought you would be offended if he refused. That said why would you want to waste your time and money on a guy who has a bf he says he wont leave? Plenty of nice single working guys out there!

[Steve2UK]

It seems to me that there's a widespread tendency (among Westerners, anyhow) to regard Thai partners as either devils or angels - with nothing in between. I think the truth is more complex and that there are many more shades of grey between black and white in this context.

I agree with much of the response so far even though I don't have a problem accepting the possibility (fact?) that "X" holds down an office job - because it doesn't necessarily signify anything beyond the fact that "X" could support himself and be relatively (by Thai standards) financially independent. The significant fact is that he has so far chosen to continue staying with his current farang partner - for whatever reasons......... comfort zone, habit, hope etc.

Where I do have a worry is reading that the pre-meet contacts already included discussing/agreeing the financial side: "Through my conversations with him before I came to Thailand I said I would go shopping with him, pay for meals, hotels etc and would give him some money before I left". While it's pretty well inevitable in LOS that the better-off half of a romantic equation (whether farang or Thai) will pay most of the time, setting this up in advance of even meeting gets me feeling very uncomfortable about where it's likely to lead.

I met a guy through the internet without any of that and it progressed very well right up until after I left; then I started to get plaintive messages and e-mails about money problems (full story here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=37059). With hindsight, my take is that I was too ready to help and it spoiled him - so the ATM side became more important than the feelings; others think that he was always that way inclined. I'll probably never know for sure which shade of grey operated in my case - the fact remains that it went sour and I can't ever trust him again.

The short articles at the following two links illustrate opposite ends of the spectrum - i.e. from conscious exploitation to the "real thing":

http://www.stickyrice.ws/?view=sec-GEN/moneyboys

http://www.stickyrice.ws/?view=sec-GEN/passengers

I don't have any advice to give except a] don't be too cynical and b] hold on to your hat - it's going to be a bumpy ride. Oh - and maybe this: if "X" starts to say anything like "I want to leave that other farang guy - so could you help me to set myself up somewhere on my own so I will be only for you etc etc" - then you know, don't you?

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe I'm reading something more into the original poster's most recent post, but if the Thai B/F is scared to death to accidentally bump into his other, earlier B/F, as in Bangkok, the earlier B/F may not be a dude who appreciates his Thai sleeping with another farang.

I hate jealous people, especially ones who think they own the body I'm sharing a bed with.

[Warts and all]

Everybody can be economical with the truth when it suits but in this case the Thai guy was honest enough to say he had a B/F. I know many guys who wouldn't have. Many of us have been in relationships that should have ended sooner but we didnt leave because it was comfortable or we were scared to go so we waited for the next b/f to arrive before making our exit. I can underestand the Thai guy not wanting to jump and I'm amazed he is so open and honset about it. IMO security is very important to Thais, probably more so than your average westerner.

[ChrisP]

Although he did take it, he was embarrassed about doing so, which was the point that made me thing, ‘OK this guy is different.’

Nope, not different, just a good actor...

I agree with much that Steve 2UK says.. and yes, there can be MANY shades of grey between an out-and-out MB, and a regular date. But I also agree with Warts...

IMO security is very important to Thais, probably more so than your average westerner.

And if he gets some fun, pleasure and Money (for security) into the bargain.. then why not.

I also don't buy the ".. he might bump into his bf in BKK..." out of 7 million people... very unlikely. More likely he might bump into other farangs he's played.....

I learned the hard way in 2003. I dated a MB.. thinking he wasn't really. Then found I was one of 3 on the string at the same time... Once I knew I didn't tell him I knew. I just watched, and waited for the excuses why he couldn't see me, or answer his phone, on certain days..

I have to say they were AMAZINGLY creative excuses. Beats the hel_l out of "the dog ate my homework.." ANY day..!"

He tried ".. I have to join Thai Army tomorrow..." I found from a friend he was already exempted.

The best one was "I have to go to Monastery for 3 months and can not talk to you..." (I knew he was going to Germany with one of the other Farang.)

Eventually I let him know I knew the game...

But.. it WAS a good learning experience. And I did learn. Am I more cynical now..? OHHH YES!

I have been dating another guy for 18 months now - def not a MB. But I did catch him cheating once too - the SMS messages in his phone gave it away... He currently has one more "life" left... then I move on. And he knows it. Boy does HE answer the phone EVERY time I call now...!

When I'm in BKK I frequent an Internet Cafe in Patpong... and watch the girls writing the same e-mail letter to 5 farang at a time.. with another girl who is good at English and translates for them... They all giggle when they realize I'm watching... Now THAT'S Entertainment!

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd say it's ok to give a guy a "grace period" after he's first met you to tell you what's up with him- his life, his other pending relationships, etc.- and then you tell him what you want (monogamy, just sex, friends, whatever) and he tells you what he wants, and that's the time to come out with any "dark secrets." I have very little patience now (as per the previous experiences PB alludes to) with any ongoing drama or grey areas in the lives of people I am considering as serious partners.

"Steven"

[bkk1970]

A long distance relationship is never ever good !!!

All you can do sooner or later is get a job in Thailand to get closer to him or sponsor him to come over in your home country.If you don't wanna think about any of my mentioned solutions,try to get rid of his image from your mind!

You guys are suffering for nothing!and I guess he will be suffering from your love in lesser degree than you as Thailand is a sunshine country which heals you in no time!

Love is blind

[ChrisP]

bkk.. I know. That's why I'm moving there next year.

ChrisP

[Warts and all]

ChrisP you do indeed, as you admit, appear cynical. If this Thai guy is indeed a MB then he is a rare one to actually admit to having a B/F. As you rightly point out money boys are out to get as much money as they can from as many guys as they can and why not as this is their chosen profession. I doubt a MB would ever admit to having a bf as it would scare most serious guys away, it certainly would me and so I think, in this case, your cynicism has got the better of you. I will say again, I think Rickys should ask himself why he wants to pursue a relationship with a guy who admits to having a b/f? Is it the usual case of wanting someone that somebody else has? Alot of the time when you do get him you then realise it's not what you wanted. The thrill is the chase and the rest is an anti climax. So Rickys your asking for trouble in your life by pursuing this guy not because he may or may not be a moneyboy but because he already has a b/f. Lust is definitely ruling your head!

Edited November 17, 2005 by Warts and all

[PeaceBlondie]

As IJWT and other posters have often pointed out, there are various degrees of 'money boys.' I took IJWT''s advice and found a real Thai b/f who was not a money boy. In fact, we've had sex recently, and he never accepts money for it. He did, however, during our live-in relationship, see nothing wrong about lovers sharing their incomes. It was not the same, but it still cost me a lot of cash, which I don't regret. However, he never had another b/f on the side.

[ChrisP]

Warts....

Ok. You may be right.. I've not come across a MB admitting to a bf either...

But... but... (sigh.)

There MUST be a Thai-twist there SOMEWHERE!!

PBlondie... my bf and I are NOT sharing incomes..! We agree who pays for what with the apartment... and that's it.

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

This brings us to the interesting topic of "Stealth Moneyboys," "Gold Diggers," and "Kept Lads," not discussed so much lately here on the forum.

Among those Thai partners of farang who have some sort of financial requirements for their partners, I like to distinguish among the following categories. Please note that NOT all Thais fit in these categories, only the ones who stipulate some sort of financial return from their romantic partners:

Large fixed price for sex, openly discussed:

Prostitute, gogo boy, freelance MB

Sex in return for entertainment, food,

and small amounts of cash which are

disguised in discussion as "favours":

Stealth money boy

Sex/relationship in return for "shopping,"

dating expenses, other occasional but

usually expensive favours:

Small time gold digger

Relationship in return for complete support,

also possibly including occasional expensive

favours, sometimes living at a distance

Big time gold digger, kept boy

OP's new "friend" fits in the gap between the stealth money boy and the small time gold digger. He indicates an interest in relationships (the mythical "other boyfriend," who may or may not exist), and cleverly manages to circumambulate the issue of having his foreign visitor pay for everything (and even pay for him!) during his trip. No doubt he's well practiced in these techniques, and does not directly ask for such benefits, but manages to get foreigners talking about them ("oh, how I'd love to stay in a hotel on Samui....") to his ultimate advantage.

Don't underestimate the intelligence of a lot of people in this spectrum. They are often fairly well-educated, with many university students among them. They know that foreigners (or indeed, Thais) often cannot rationalise a relationship involving prostitution, so they come up with comfortable cover stories emphasizing how they are NOT moneyboys, interested in money, etc., etc. Some of them may even have convinced themselves these things are true.

They have a variety of clever techniques to discourage you from learning more about the less flattering sides of their life (i.e., where their income comes from, except you, of course). One such technique is to say they are deeply closeted and cannot let you meet their friends/family. Another is the "other boyfriend" line. A third is the "of course I have a real job" reassurance. All of these can be easily fabricated, and the simple tourist has little means of checking out the stories.

We're used to thinking in a binary fashion- either prostitute/not prostitute. But that's not such a clear and distinct line here in LOS. Please also note that in many of these categories the fact that a financial stipulation exists does not prevent the person from actually have feelings and a real relationship with their patron. It's a bit 19th century, but there it is.

"Steven"

Edited November 17, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[Rickys]

Interesting reading so far and definitely food for thought.

I guess I am annoyed with myself for feeling this way and although as suggested I would like dearly like to sponsor him to come across to my country I know it’s not practical. (Have you tried getting a visa from the British Embassy!!!)

Interesting point that the whole time I was with X he didn’t instigate any conversation about money or wanting anything. (I choose the hotels etc before I arrived.) if he did it was very subtle and so subtle I didn’t notice. I would like to think that if the money wasn’t there we would still have had a good time. That certainly seems to be the impression I got and made me think, this guy is different.

One thing that will make you smile is when I suggested going shopping he suggested a certain shopping centre. When I walked into the centre the first 2 shops I saw were “Louis Vuitton” and “Calvin Klein”, So I guess X had quality taste!!! However he was very gracious when we were shopping only having 2 or 3 Thai designer stores he was interested in! I also ended up buying a couple of things for myself. I don’t know if any of you have experienced a Thai gay guy shopping for clothes! You need a lot time and patience!

Please don’t get me wrong in any of my postings, I don’t have a problem with giving X money or buying things as I see it as my way of helping him out as well as the Thai tourist industry, which I think he understood.

I certainly didn’t see it as buying his affections, i.e. I bought you a pair of jeans so get on the bed!! and I don’t think X did either, or at least that was the impression. To be honest if there wasn’t a sexual relationship between us I think I would still have “helped” him as I would for any of my friends.

Sadly I have noticed the text messages and emails from him are slowing down, excuse being busy at work, apparently. I feel a bit of a love sick fool sending messages and emails everyday, I don’t know why but this time round I seem to have the “Thai guy bug” bad. Maybe I’m getting older and more gullible!

I think I am understanding the many shades of grey people have talked about, and, as the lust is subsiding I would like to think of X as different, I guess I will just have to wait and see.

[Warts and all]

Large fixed price for sex, openly discussed:

Prostitute, gogo boy, freelance MB.

Customers:- Ugly, overweight, possibly bald with erectile disfunction

Sex in return for entertainment, food,

and small amounts of cash which are

disguised in discussion as "favours":

Stealth money boy

Customers:- Lonely old single tourists who have to make do with living on a pension

Sex/relationship in return for "shopping,"

dating expenses, other occasional but

usually expensive favours:

Small time gold digger

Customer:- 40+ show off and thinks with his genitals.

Relationship in return for complete support,

also possibly including occasional expensive

favours, sometimes living at a distance

Big time gold digger, kept boy

Customers:- Unable to find a b/f in native country, so has to buy one

IJWT you sound as cynical as ChrisP. If you have had a bad experience with a Thai guy put it down to experience, learn from it and move on. I'm sure you cynercism comes from the feeling of being tricked or conned which of course makes you angry or makes you feel stupid. Just one of life's lessons.

[Steve2UK]

Rickys, I don't want to be perceived as someone who thinks that every Thai bf/gf is always after something material. My previous experience(s) only make me a little more cautious in the head versus heart department rather than cynical.

But - you still haven't explained how/why you got into discussing the financial side before you met him. I can understand your saying that you'd pay for the hotel etc when you went to stay in the south - but why the shopping and why the advance promise of money before you left? Dare I say it, but there seems to have been no need for him to "instigate any conversation about money or wanting anything" - because you were already doing it? During the whole time I was with my "X", he didn't ask for anything once; no need - I was already jumping in to "help" with problems. Frankly, I think that says more about me than about him - you might like to apply the same thought process to yourself? Come to that, do you really see him not having enough Calvin Klein etc as a problem that needs help? Sorry if that seems very harsh - but most of us have been there to some extent. As it happens, my instinct is that you might well have had much the same situation with him without the shopping, parting gift etc - but who can tell now?

It seems like your feelings are calming down a bit - and I see that as healthy. See how the connection continues; maybe he'll be around, available and interested for your next visit........ maybe not. From what you say, you both had something good from the experience - so no regrets. As I said before, don't let yourself get cynical - but maybe count to ten before you start reaching for your wallet next time? I know I will........

[Steve2UK]

Warts and all, in your quote from IJWT's post you left out (and, I guess, ignored) the key part of what he said before describing a range of categories in a particular group:

"This brings us to the interesting topic of "Stealth Moneyboys," "Gold Diggers," and "Kept Lads," not discussed so much lately here on the forum.

Among those Thai partners of farang who have some sort of financial requirements for their partners*, I like to distinguish among the following categories. Please note that NOT all Thais fit in these categories, only the ones who stipulate some sort of financial return from their romantic partners:"

[* bold = my emphasis]

IJWT is not being cynical - he's being specific about a particular group and usefully so. He knows, as I do, that LOS is full of Thai's who do not fall into this group. That doesn't mean that there aren't quite a few who do........

All Thai's aren't anything - except Thai.

[ChrisP]

as cynical as ChrisP. If you have had a bad experience with a Thai guy put it down to experience, learn from it and move on. I'm sure you cynercism comes from the feeling of being tricked or conned which of course makes you angry or makes you feel stupid. Just one of life's lessons.

Warts... I definitely learned form the experience.. and definitely moved on. I'm not sure I'm THAT cynical.. I do know there are really nice Thaiguys out there.. and if I need to look for another one in the future.. my first "education" was worth every penny.

I think IJWT has great points about the many shades of guys... and yes, LOS does operate a LOT like the Victorian Era.. they all want a "benefit" as my bf says... they all want to marry well... :-)

ChrisP

[Warts and all]

How IJWT categorized Thai MB's I thought was a cynical look from someone who had a bitter experience. Most MB's are so because they are from poor famalies with parents in debt due to one addiction or another. To categorize them as gold diggers or whatever I thought was belittling to most of them who are forced to sleep with and do disgusting things with foreigners in order to send money home to pay for daddies gambling addiction. My post was merely to put the otherside of the coin.

As for OP's new "friend" fits in the gap between the stealth money boy and the small time gold digger I totally disagree. The evidence from Rickys posts is just not there to say such a thing. Just because he took money from Rickys doesnt make him a MB. In Thai culture refusing a gift can be seen as an insult to the person offering. Even earning the alleged 20,000 a month, which is a good salary for a Thai, wouldnt be enough for a Thai guy to spend his money in the manner in which a westerner would. After his rent, bills,etc there wouldn't be enough left to pay for hotels, meals etc etc to the standard a westerner, on holiday, would want to experience. So either the foreigner pays or he doesnt go it's that simple.

[Ijustwannateach]

^The issue of payment was re. the CASH payment over and above paying for entertainment, hotel, etc. I think it's a given that if most Westerners want to take most normal Thais out to Western establishments that they'll have to cover costs for both.

Most "normal" Thais I've dated, far from being reluctant to offend me by refusing a gift, have made an effort to show they are not trying to use me for money even in dating expenses. And as I mentioned, there are different degrees of MB. I think anyone who is willing to accept cash money so readily is dodgy. If you want to think a different thing, that's up to you.

"Steven"

[Warts and all]

A Friend of mine who is Thai chinese went out with a Malaysian guy who gave him money for sex. My friend was 32 at the time earning 80,000++ a month. He found nothing wrong with this transaction. He told me he was surprised the guy offered even flattered and felt nothing wrong in taking the money. Now at 45 earning 180,000++ he still expected an Older American guy to pay for hotels and meals. Is my friend a MB far from it, just a tight ass! Well not that tight as he is a bottom. Money is very important to Thais and to some refusing to take it is unthinkable

[Ijustwannateach]

^Your story is not impossible, but most Thai-Chinese I know have more self-respect than this.

[smo]

I think, or like to think my own story is a little bit more romantic, inspite of me falling flat on my face at the end anyway. I remember reading another thread re Thai culture where love = affection + patronage. Since farangs arrive with pocket full of hard cash/credit cards we are expected to come up with both items, whereas our sweetheart can only offer affection and/or devotion. My ex was not a gogo boy or hooker by any standard (coming from the provinces, he was not that gorgeous, or rapacious) however he’s lived in Bangkok long enough to have similar aspirations. The fact that he was living with his uncle’s family, didn’t hold a job but we met at Babylon anyway should have told me something.

As time went by and we muddled along with our ups and downs I no longer could afford the “patronage” part, thus the ex put aside the devotion part for good measure. Toward the end, affection was also thrown to the wind from both sides. Let’s say we parted with more regret than anger. And without a definitive goodbye.

However, I feel I’ve got great returns on my initial “affection+patronage” investment. I believe to this day that love existed on the terrain that had been defined, and that we both were satisfied with the arrangement. Only when the aforementioned equation no longer computed that the whole romance fell apart. My ex was young and I read somewhere on this forum or the other that Bangkok is a “dangerous” place, especially for young minds. But for me, to borrow a cliché, or two, I have enough sweet memories to last me a lifetime, and I’ll always have Paris – I mean, Bangkok.

Now if only ChrisP would introduce me to his cadre of gay 30+yo Thai with decent jobs….

[gbswales]

I find this whole debate rather distasteful but unfortunately indicitave of how some western guys seem to think about their Thai b/fs. When I was young and dated girls it was normal for the boy to pay for most things, I bought presents took girls for meals and eventually married someone and for a good part of our married llife I was the breadwinner. - Did I or anyone else look on my girlfriends or my wife as some kind of gold digger or prosititute? Of course not! It was simply a matter of economics - I earned much more than they and so did the bulk of the paying - its called sharing!!

Now I have met a loving Thai boy and, unless something one day proves this wrong, I trust in his love and feeling for me - I in return feel as much for him. He earns about enough each day to feed himself and lives in overcrowded housing with his family. So what is expected in a situation like this - that i send him to a street stall to buy a 20baht bowl of noodles while I spend 400 baht on a hotel meal? He stayed with me the whole three weeks, showing more love and care than I could imagine, and at the end of the three weeks I stepped into an air conditioned plane and jetted back to a life 1000 times more comfortable than his. Despite him having so little he would often pay quietly for things, for both of us, which he could afford - like a taxi or some food. Even now he insists on making some phone calls using phone cards he can ill afford

I love him and I feel he loves me and if I choose to help him it is from my heart and not because of anything else. If any western guy is looking for love amongst Thai people he should find it, but he should not make judgments based on western values. If of course he is primarily looking for sex then he will get the return that this deserves. I dont mean that to offend or sound unkind it is just a fact of life that applies anywhere in the world.

If my love reads this then he should know that anything I give is from my heart and simply a sharing of what I have and not some kind of payment!!

[ChrisP]

Hi gbswales and Welcome!

Thnaks for your post, which shows that there are MANY types of guys in Thailand - and I sincerely hope you have found the one for you.

Yes, there is sharing, there is taking care of someone as in a marriage, there is taking care of someone in the Victorian society sense too - and nothing wrong with that) and yes if a Westerner has more, then sharing it is what should happen..

But, there is no doubt - as is illustrated both here and in many other posts, that there are also many shades of "money-boy" too.. where they can get greedy and want more than even a Westerner can reasonably afford.

I think that Thais do seem to have a remarkable propensity (both male and female) - sometimes - for "...killing the goose that laid the Golden Egg". I wonder why that is....??

ChrisP

[DUMPSTER]

gbswales it sounds like you have found a great guy. However, having lived here for 4 years, I have come across many similar guys from poor families who are only to willing to give their undying love within “5 minutes” of meeting you. The cynic in me always wonders if it is the opportunity to improve their lifestyle or is it real love. I guess this is the difficulty one has in such relationships. I myself have had 2 Thai b/f's. One was earning 50,000 a month and spoke perfect English and my current b/f is earning 20,000 and has a Masters in English. Their love for me has nothing to do with economics which at least convinced me that their love was genuine.

I set my own guidelines for a potential b/f.

1. They have to be self sufficient.

2. Speak very good English.

Of course this does not guarantee success. My first Thai b/f I met in London and I moved to Thailand to be with him. A friend told me years ago you never truly know a guy until you live with him and boy was he right. You may love someone but when you live together it could be a whole new ball game.

I have met many foreigners here who fall in love with a cute guy who cannot support himself and cannot speak English very well. Once the novelty of sex has dropped, as it always does in relationships, what are you left with? Two guys who cannot communicate outside the bedroom. It has disaster written all over it.

My warning is only that, Thai guys will give their undying love to you very quickly. I cannot give that to a guy so easily. So how come they can?

I wish you well and I hope you have found the real deal.

ChrisP wrote I think that Thais do seem to have a remarkable propensity (both male and female) - sometimes - for "...killing the goose that laid the Golden Egg". I wonder why that is....??

It's called human nature and greed. It's not just a Thai boy/girl thing it happens in all walks of life. From executives in big companies to boys and girls from poor families in Thailand. Not knowing when to stop is a problem for all of us.

Edited December 3, 2005 by DUMPSTER