Pheu Thai And Red Shirts Do Nothing To Help Their Own

[h90]

So Nick and others, if those small radio-stations - spewing vile propaganda and lies - aren't representative of UDD and Red Shirts, alright.

Then tell me, who is? Is Jutaporn, Red Shirt leader and PT MP? Turn your TV to channel Voice TV now and it shows him being out by people close to flooding, doing propaganda speeches from the back of a truck/improvised stage. Is he representative?

Basically they are all "Red Shirts" or part of the 'Red Shirt movement'.

The Red Shirt movement consists of several independent groups. The largest group is the UDD, of which Jatuporn, Nattawut, etc are the main leaders. Until last year, together with about 20 something leaders formed the central committee of the UDD, with Veera Musikapong as their chairman. This set up has collapsed after the crackdown. In December 2010 the new acting central committee was formed, with Tida Thawornset as a chairwoman, and several other leaders as committee members. Nevertheless, while Jaturporn, Nattawut and Dr. Weng have no "official" position in the Red Shirt leadership - the are though the most loved leaders.

Besides the UDD the Red Shirts have many independent subgroups of varying size, such as Sombat's Red Sunday, The 24th of June Group, or what was formerly known as Daeng Siam, or Red Siam, who have split from the UDD after the 2009 crackdown, have now though been as a group dissolved, are though still existing as an alliance of sub groups. All these groups are not under the authority of the UDD leadership, work though in differing degrees, and depending on occasion together.

The Radio station are more complex, especially regarding their relationship with the UDD. There are also different models of the Radio Stations, which have been developed quite a bit from the early models of Shinawat Habunprad's Taxi Radio Station, Kwanchai's Udon Lovers or the also under Red Shirts highly disputed Chiangmai 51. There are also huge numbers of grassroots organizations which are to varying degrees close to the UDD, or directly under UDD hierarchy. There is no simple model though.

A new development are the Red Shirt villages, where it is yet too early to state too much about them, other than that this is mostly grass roots grown organization. Nevertheless, this movement has its own sort of leadership, but their structures are still in development. While PT party MP's and Red Shirt leaders have been at opening ceremonies, they are still quite adamant that they are not under UDD authority. One of their initiators has told me once that they will collaborate with the UDD when they feel that it is the right thing to do so, but when they don't feel so - they will not.

Basically - the Red Shirt movement is far larger and more complex than many think it is, and their relationship with Pueah Thai Party is even more complicated. There are huge differences in Ideology, tactics or strategy. What though combines all Red Shirts is their wish for democracy, the parliamentary system, to bring the military under the control of elected governments, and the end the power of what they define as "Amart" - the traditional elites.

That is it as brief as i can manage.

yes the old communist guide book and the the usual struggle, leninists, stalinists, maoists, etc etc. With their usual blabla about democracy, but only in their single party system. Not allowing other parties to promote their ideas in red areas is not very pro democracy, or? More "DDR" Deutsche Demokratische Republik (German Democratic Republic).

You know it is a bit of a shame for a real communist to use Thaksin as their tool in the hope too get rid of him later. I recommend to read some of the manifests: Something like taking the worst capitalist and fake the proletarian under his dictatorship was NOT the idea of the real communists.

[animatic]

1319985479[/url]' post='4808893']

1319984705[/url]' post='4808856']

1319981002[/url]' post='4808708']

So Nick and others, if those small radio-stations - spewing vile propaganda and lies - aren't representative of UDD and Red Shirts, alright.

Then tell me, who is? Is Jutaporn, Red Shirt leader and PT MP? Turn your TV to channel Voice TV now and it shows him being out by people close to flooding, doing propaganda speeches from the back of a truck/improvised stage. Is he representative?

Basically they are all "Red Shirts" or part of the 'Red Shirt movement'.

The Red Shirt movement consists of several independent groups. The largest group is the UDD, of which Jatuporn, Nattawut, etc are the main leaders. Until last year, together with about 20 something leaders formed the central committee of the UDD, with Veera Musikapong as their chairman. This set up has collapsed after the crackdown. In December 2010 the new acting central committee was formed, with Tida Thawornset as a chairwoman, and several other leaders as committee members. Nevertheless, while Jaturporn, Nattawut and Dr. Weng have no "official" position in the Red Shirt leadership - the are though the most loved leaders.

Besides the UDD the Red Shirts have many independent subgroups of varying size, such as Sombat's Red Sunday, The 24th of June Group, or what was formerly known as Daeng Siam, or Red Siam, who have split from the UDD after the 2009 crackdown, have now though been as a group dissolved, are though still existing as an alliance of sub groups. All these groups are not under the authority of the UDD leadership, work though in differing degrees, and depending on occasion together.

The Radio station are more complex, especially regarding their relationship with the UDD. There are also different models of the Radio Stations, which have been developed quite a bit from the early models of Shinawat Habunprad's Taxi Radio Station, Kwanchai's Udon Lovers or the also under Red Shirts highly disputed Chiangmai 51. There are also huge numbers of grassroots organizations which are to varying degrees close to the UDD, or directly under UDD hierarchy. There is no simple model though.

A new development are the Red Shirt villages, where it is yet too early to state too much about them, other than that this is mostly grass roots grown organization. Nevertheless, this movement has its own sort of leadership, but their structures are still in development. While PT party MP's and Red Shirt leaders have been at opening ceremonies, they are still quite adamant that they are not under UDD authority. One of their initiators has told me once that they will collaborate with the UDD when they feel that it is the right thing to do so, but when they don't feel so - they will not.

Basically - the Red Shirt movement is far larger and more complex than many think it is, and their relationship with Pueah Thai Party is even more complicated. There are huge differences in Ideology, tactics or strategy. What though combines all Red Shirts is their wish for democracy, the parliamentary system, to bring the military under the control of elected governments, and the end the power of what they define as "Amart" - the traditional elites.

That is it as brief as i can manage.

yes the old communist guide book and the the usual struggle, leninists, stalinists, maoists, etc etc. With their usual blabla about democracy, but only in their single party system. Not allowing other parties to promote their ideas in red areas is not very pro democracy, or? More "DDR" Deutsche Demokratische Republik (German Democratic Republic).

You know it is a bit of a shame for a real communist to use Thaksin as their tool in the hope too get rid of him later. I recommend to read some of the manifests: Something like taking the worst capitalist and fake the proletarian under his dictatorship was NOT the idea of the real communists.

Don't leave out the anarchists, who don't even realize they are anarchists.

[nicknostitz]

Thank you Nick for that. I am still not sure who we can say 'represents' Red Shirts, if they were to do something bad (or good), without being accused of trying to paint the whole group in an unfair light.

It is indeed quite difficult to see who represents the Red Shirts as a whole. This makes my work also more than difficult, especially now, as compared to when it all began in 2006 to 2008. The Red Shirt movement has grown so large and wide that most leaders themselves have certain difficulties with defining their movement as a whole. Of course added to this are the enormous complexities of Thai society itself, with its infinite patronage networks.

What also did not exactly help was that there is an almost complete vacuum of reporting on Red Shirt structures and hierarchies in the English language media outlets since the beginning. Also there is unfortunately not a single academic research on the development of the Red Shirts as a whole. I am working right now on a paper that i hope will bring some clarity into this mess, including describing the ideological developments and differences of the different groups. But that will take some more time to finish.

[nicknostitz]

yes the old communist guide book and the the usual struggle, leninists, stalinists, maoists, etc etc. With their usual blabla about democracy, but only in their single party system. Not allowing other parties to promote their ideas in red areas is not very pro democracy, or? More "DDR" Deutsche Demokratische Republik (German Democratic Republic).

You know it is a bit of a shame for a real communist to use Thaksin as their tool in the hope too get rid of him later. I recommend to read some of the manifests: Something like taking the worst capitalist and fake the proletarian under his dictatorship was NOT the idea of the real communists.

Actually - no, not at all.

The former communists are a minority under the Red Shirts. Most Red Shirts are politically in the middle ground.

And as an aside - far more former communists have been and are part of the PAD and not the Red Shirts.

[animatic]

1319986250[/url]' post='4808921']

1319985479[/url]' post='4808893']

yes the old communist guide book and the the usual struggle, leninists, stalinists, maoists, etc etc. With their usual blabla about democracy, but only in their single party system. Not allowing other parties to promote their ideas in red areas is not very pro democracy, or? More "DDR" Deutsche Demokratische Republik (German Democratic Republic).

You know it is a bit of a shame for a real communist to use Thaksin as their tool in the hope too get rid of him later. I recommend to read some of the manifests: Something like taking the worst capitalist and fake the proletarian under his dictatorship was NOT the idea of the real communists.

Actually - no, not at all.

The former communists are a minority under the Red Shirts. Most Red Shirts are politically in the middle ground.

And as an aside - far more former communists have been and are part of the PAD and not the Red Shirts.

Explain Weng and Tida, as old school red as it comes, old jungle hiders from the bad old days, and in leadership and organization seats now. A last hurrah so to speak..

[nicknostitz]

Explain Weng and Tida, as old school red as it comes, old jungle hiders from the bad old days, and in leadership and organization seats now. A last hurrah so to speak..

Again, no.

Both Weng and Tida are not "old school red as it comes" - on the opposite. Both are very educated and extremely well read. Tida is a brilliant strategist. I have often talked with Tida about how she sees her former self as a member of the CPT Central Committee and her role under the Red Shirts, and she has pointed out the mistakes she and the other communists have made back in the 70's, especially regarding the use of violence and the use of an ideology that was unacceptable to the majority of the population, that she does not want to repeat those mistakes again. Both know very well that the only way that the Red Shirts can succeed is not by following a radical ideology.

[philw]

So Nick and others, if those small radio-stations - spewing vile propaganda and lies - aren't representative of UDD and Red Shirts, alright.

Then tell me, who is? Is Jutaporn, Red Shirt leader and PT MP? Turn your TV to channel Voice TV now and it shows him being out by people close to flooding, doing propaganda speeches from the back of a truck/improvised stage. Is he representative?

Basically they are all "Red Shirts" or part of the 'Red Shirt movement'.

The Red Shirt movement consists of several independent groups. The largest group is the UDD, of which Jatuporn, Nattawut, etc are the main leaders. Until last year, together with about 20 something leaders formed the central committee of the UDD, with Veera Musikapong as their chairman. This set up has collapsed after the crackdown. In December 2010 the new acting central committee was formed, with Tida Thawornset as a chairwoman, and several other leaders as committee members. Nevertheless, while Jaturporn, Nattawut and Dr. Weng have no "official" position in the Red Shirt leadership - the are though the most loved leaders.

Besides the UDD the Red Shirts have many independent subgroups of varying size, such as Sombat's Red Sunday, The 24th of June Group, or what was formerly known as Daeng Siam, or Red Siam, who have split from the UDD after the 2009 crackdown, have now though been as a group dissolved, are though still existing as an alliance of sub groups. All these groups are not under the authority of the UDD leadership, work though in differing degrees, and depending on occasion together.

The Radio station are more complex, especially regarding their relationship with the UDD. There are also different models of the Radio Stations, which have been developed quite a bit from the early models of Shinawat Habunprad's Taxi Radio Station, Kwanchai's Udon Lovers or the also under Red Shirts highly disputed Chiangmai 51. There are also huge numbers of grassroots organizations which are to varying degrees close to the UDD, or directly under UDD hierarchy. There is no simple model though.

A new development are the Red Shirt villages, where it is yet too early to state too much about them, other than that this is mostly grass roots grown organization. Nevertheless, this movement has its own sort of leadership, but their structures are still in development. While PT party MP's and Red Shirt leaders have been at opening ceremonies, they are still quite adamant that they are not under UDD authority. One of their initiators has told me once that they will collaborate with the UDD when they feel that it is the right thing to do so, but when they don't feel so - they will not.

Basically - the Red Shirt movement is far larger and more complex than many think it is, and their relationship with Pueah Thai Party is even more complicated. There are huge differences in Ideology, tactics or strategy. What though combines all Red Shirts is their wish for democracy, the parliamentary system, to bring the military under the control of elected governments, and the end the power of what they define as "Amart" - the traditional elites.

That is it as brief as i can manage.

yes the old communist guide book and the the usual struggle, leninists, stalinists, maoists, etc etc. With their usual blabla about democracy, but only in their single party system. Not allowing other parties to promote their ideas in red areas is not very pro democracy, or? More "DDR" Deutsche Demokratische Republik (German Democratic Republic).

You know it is a bit of a shame for a real communist to use Thaksin as their tool in the hope too get rid of him later. I recommend to read some of the manifests: Something like taking the worst capitalist and fake the proletarian under his dictatorship was NOT the idea of the real communists.

Thanks H9o, you can certainly be relied on..................

To dirty the waters.

[ThaiOats]

How do you conspiracy theorist explain this photo then? Also photoshopped?

If I am not mistaken, the location is at the elephant building at the Lardprao/Pahon Yothin intersection, and this is where i have seen a team of a Red Shirt community radio station being positioned. Neither run by either the UDD or the government. Just a small team that does things on their own.

Usually, the criticism of Red Shirts is usually countered by a criticism of Yellow shirts and the Democrats. What red shirt apologists fail to realize that a lot of people on here don't support Yellow and fall into the category of "multi-colored shirts" aka regular people who don't take political sides. The fact the matter is that the Reds clearly favor one political side and are the ones causing this rift in Thailand. When asked in America "are you a Democrat or a Republican" I'd reply "neither, depends on the candidate". That's a more neutral approach that MANY people have and quite IMHO is the way it should be.

Now onto the quote. Just because it's a small team that does things on their own doesn't excuse the whole Red Shirt community from the negativity. They (the Red shirts) are accountable for any actions done by their people unless they admit that it was wrong and reprimand the people who've misrepresented them. Unless that's done, the negativity stays. In one example, unless the masses of the Red-Shirts came out and say "what Jatuporn and Arisman did in advocating the destruction of Thailand was wrong, they're not what we are" then it's safe to assume that the Red Shirts support it. Same as this boat issue. It's a stigma surrounding the Reds which the apologists have to deal with and have to understand.

So Nick, while you're involved in monitoring the Reds closely and trying to bring them into a better light, you'd have to convince a lot of people that you DO NOT agree with what they've done.

First of all, it is not my job or aspiration to "bring them into a better light". My job is to show them in a realistic light. Just because here on Thaivisa they majority opinion is distorted beyond any realistic connection does not mean that i have a need to convince people of anything. Facts speak for themselves, and if some on Thaivisa here have difficulties to accept facts, than this is not my problem.

I have already stated that i find this quite scandalous, if indeed they practice what the sticker says. Furthermore, due to the make up of the Red Shirts, which is not an army, but a multifaceted social mass movement which consists of numerous smaller and larger independent groups beyond the control of the UDD leadership (which means also most of the community radio stations), the here voiced criticism would only apply to the Red Shirts as a whole, if indeed such a Red only policy would be a stated and propagated policy by all groups, or a majority of them, especially also by the UDD leadership. I have already stated here that the UDD leadership has already at the beginning of the floods clearly said that they help all regardless of color. So has Sombat's independent Red Shirt affiliated group Red Sunday, and his Mirror Foundation is actively involved in relief work. Also, on the ground, i have said already, i have seen Red Shirts helping all, and working together with soldiers.

Again - this is a minority faction, most likely. Their stickers on the boats are scandalous. But first i would like to know if indeed they practice what their distasteful stickers say or if it was just an overeager stupid idea they do not follow up on on the ground before i pass any judgement.

Secondly - you are entirely mistaken about the "multi-colored shirts" - who are not "regular people that do not take sides". On the opposite, they began as a faction of the PAD, with covered support of the Democrat party and the military, their leaders were sub-leaders of the PAD, they used PAD guards and a few former Naclop Srivichai as guards in the heyday (after their first protest at Lumpini while wearing pink shirts went way out of hand when many of their protesters tried to lynch passing Red Shirts - and yes, i can prove it as i have photographed it), and the vast majority of attendants have been PAD protesters. Several second tire leaders of the PAD regularly spoke on their stages during last year's protest, such as Gen Pathumpong Kesornsuk and Gen Preecha Iamsuphan. Their rhetoric on the stages was far more vitriolic anti Red than even the PAD was. And they are far more of the political right than the PAD, regularly singing some of the most right wing patriotic songs Thailand that would not be able to be sung on the PAD stages (such as 'Nac Paendin'), as they PAD still has more than a few former left wingers who would not stand for these songs as they imply some of the worst excesses of Thailand's dark times of the 70's.

Now the "multi-colored shirts" are a tiny group under Dr. Tul that bring approximately 20 to at most 50 people to the streets, since their separation from the PAD, and quite irrelevant.

I am quite sure though that regardless of what i say, the majority here on Thaivisa will continue to exaggerate all fault in the Red Shirts, while completely ignoring their positive aspects.

Whatever...

First, I don't want to misrepresent myself when I said "multi-colored shirt", I should've said "any shirt, no shirt, or whatever shirt that has no political representation" sorry for the confusion and thanks for the reminder. As you mention, facts speak for themselves and unless there was mass delusion, people have seen the provocative speeches by the Red-Shirt leaders and the cheers that followed. People died, including soldiers who bleeds blood as much as the protesters. Even if there were just a small group of armed protesters, the fact the matter is that they represent the Reds and protesters did nothing to stop them from using violence. Do you really think the Army would have any justification to use live rounds if the protesters were truly unarmed? Jakrapob said in an interview that the Reds would not carry weapons, they would not disrupt the ASEAN summit and what happened? You can't just brush it off and say that it has gotten a bit out of control, the leash snapped.

Let's look at this small faction of Reds doing their own thing scenario. Are the leaders and Red community ready to come out on their TV stations and media channels to stop small groups from doing distasteful things? Highly unlikely, to do so would cause rifts within their own organization. If there's any reprimanding to do, it would most likely be kept low-key, and probably the reason why Chalerm has been so quiet since he was taking in so much negativity.

The positive aspects of the Reds such as helping people in the floods is something everyone should be doing without trying to score brownie points. There are things that you SHOULD be doing, and there are things that you SHOULDN'T be doing and it's the latter that gets most of the criticism. The existence of Red shirts make people hesitate to freely speak their mind, any criticism towards their "savior" is frowned upon, possibly inviting some sort of vengeance. It's fear. The fear that word might get around affecting their social life, their businesses, maybe even onto their children. Prior to the Red Shirt movement people didn't need to fear to openly express themselves at the local level.

I fear the Reds will continue to exist a long time, possibly indoctrinate from generation to generation, a political preference and furthering the division of Thailand. You're right, it's a movement unseen before in Thailand....

[nicknostitz]

First, I don't want to misrepresent myself when I said "multi-colored shirt", I should've said "any shirt, no shirt, or whatever shirt that has no political representation" sorry for the confusion and thanks for the reminder. As you mention, facts speak for themselves and unless there was mass delusion, people have seen the provocative speeches by the Red-Shirt leaders and the cheers that followed. People died, including soldiers who bleeds blood as much as the protesters. Even if there were just a small group of armed protesters, the fact the matter is that they represent the Reds and protesters did nothing to stop them from using violence. Do you really think the Army would have any justification to use live rounds if the protesters were truly unarmed? Jakrapob said in an interview that the Reds would not carry weapons, they would not disrupt the ASEAN summit and what happened? You can't just brush it off and say that it has gotten a bit out of control, the leash snapped.

Let's look at this small faction of Reds doing their own thing scenario. Are the leaders and Red community ready to come out on their TV stations and media channels to stop small groups from doing distasteful things? Highly unlikely, to do so would cause rifts within their own organization. If there's any reprimanding to do, it would most likely be kept low-key, and probably the reason why Chalerm has been so quiet since he was taking in so much negativity.

The positive aspects of the Reds such as helping people in the floods is something everyone should be doing without trying to score brownie points. There are things that you SHOULD be doing, and there are things that you SHOULDN'T be doing and it's the latter that gets most of the criticism. The existence of Red shirts make people hesitate to freely speak their mind, any criticism towards their "savior" is frowned upon, possibly inviting some sort of vengeance. It's fear. The fear that word might get around affecting their social life, their businesses, maybe even onto their children. Prior to the Red Shirt movement people didn't need to fear to openly express themselves at the local level.

I fear the Reds will continue to exist a long time, possibly indoctrinate from generation to generation, a political preference and furthering the division of Thailand. You're right, it's a movement unseen before in Thailand....

I am not going here into a discussion over last year's events. This has been covered in many fruitless debates before. The only thing i can say is that yes, there were armed militants under the Red Shirts, and yes there were quite a few incidents in which the army has fired at unarmed protesters and killed them. Several times in my directly next to me people were shot and killed, and i was fired upon as well by the army.

Chalerm has never been part of the Red Shirt movement, has never spoken at any Red Shirt stage. By far not all Pueah Thai politicians are Red Shirts.

And you are very wrong about criticism about Thaksin. One of the Red Shirt main leaders - Dr. Weng Tojirakarn - was even briefly part of the PAD before the military coup.

I would suggest to discuss these things with Red Shirts themselves instead of just discussing this on the forum here in which there is not a single Red Shirt i am aware off.

[ThaiOats]

So Nick and others, if those small radio-stations - spewing vile propaganda and lies - aren't representative of UDD and Red Shirts, alright.

Then tell me, who is? Is Jutaporn, Red Shirt leader and PT MP? Turn your TV to channel Voice TV now and it shows him being out by people close to flooding, doing propaganda speeches from the back of a truck/improvised stage. Is he representative?

Basically they are all "Red Shirts" or part of the 'Red Shirt movement'.

The Red Shirt movement consists of several independent groups. The largest group is the UDD, of which Jatuporn, Nattawut, etc are the main leaders. Until last year, together with about 20 something leaders formed the central committee of the UDD, with Veera Musikapong as their chairman. This set up has collapsed after the crackdown. In December 2010 the new acting central committee was formed, with Tida Thawornset as a chairwoman, and several other leaders as committee members. Nevertheless, while Jaturporn, Nattawut and Dr. Weng have no "official" position in the Red Shirt leadership - the are though the most loved leaders.

Besides the UDD the Red Shirts have many independent subgroups of varying size, such as Sombat's Red Sunday, The 24th of June Group, or what was formerly known as Daeng Siam, or Red Siam, who have split from the UDD after the 2009 crackdown, have now though been as a group dissolved, are though still existing as an alliance of sub groups. All these groups are not under the authority of the UDD leadership, work though in differing degrees, and depending on occasion together.

The Radio station are more complex, especially regarding their relationship with the UDD. There are also different models of the Radio Stations, which have been developed quite a bit from the early models of Shinawat Habunprad's Taxi Radio Station, Kwanchai's Udon Lovers or the also under Red Shirts highly disputed Chiangmai 51. There are also huge numbers of grassroots organizations which are to varying degrees close to the UDD, or directly under UDD hierarchy. There is no simple model though.

A new development are the Red Shirt villages, where it is yet too early to state too much about them, other than that this is mostly grass roots grown organization. Nevertheless, this movement has its own sort of leadership, but their structures are still in development. While PT party MP's and Red Shirt leaders have been at opening ceremonies, they are still quite adamant that they are not under UDD authority. One of their initiators has told me once that they will collaborate with the UDD when they feel that it is the right thing to do so, but when they don't feel so - they will not.

Basically - the Red Shirt movement is far larger and more complex than many think it is, and their relationship with Pueah Thai Party is even more complicated. There are huge differences in Ideology, tactics or strategy. What though combines all Red Shirts is their wish for democracy, the parliamentary system, to bring the military under the control of elected governments, and the end the power of what they define as "Amart" - the traditional elites.

That is it as brief as i can manage.

Thank you for the brief, insightful look into the Red Shirt structure. Basically it's worse than I've imagined. You have all these people running around with different ideas on how to bring (uphold) their version of Thai Democracy thus divisions within a division. While you're against propaganda, take a look at what you've written here and count how many channels of propaganda you've mentioned. It's no wonder why it's spreading like cancer. You do realize there are regular people affected by this right? Man this is becoming like Christianity... no offense, just stating that there are many divisions of the same faith. Sadly, this is all brought to surface by one megalomaniac man manipulating the masses by exploiting their weakness in poverty.

But back to the OP... Reds Do Everything To Help Their Own.

[philw]

So Nick and others, if those small radio-stations - spewing vile propaganda and lies - aren't representative of UDD and Red Shirts, alright.

Then tell me, who is? Is Jutaporn, Red Shirt leader and PT MP? Turn your TV to channel Voice TV now and it shows him being out by people close to flooding, doing propaganda speeches from the back of a truck/improvised stage. Is he representative?

Basically they are all "Red Shirts" or part of the 'Red Shirt movement'.

The Red Shirt movement consists of several independent groups. The largest group is the UDD, of which Jatuporn, Nattawut, etc are the main leaders. Until last year, together with about 20 something leaders formed the central committee of the UDD, with Veera Musikapong as their chairman. This set up has collapsed after the crackdown. In December 2010 the new acting central committee was formed, with Tida Thawornset as a chairwoman, and several other leaders as committee members. Nevertheless, while Jaturporn, Nattawut and Dr. Weng have no "official" position in the Red Shirt leadership - the are though the most loved leaders.

Besides the UDD the Red Shirts have many independent subgroups of varying size, such as Sombat's Red Sunday, The 24th of June Group, or what was formerly known as Daeng Siam, or Red Siam, who have split from the UDD after the 2009 crackdown, have now though been as a group dissolved, are though still existing as an alliance of sub groups. All these groups are not under the authority of the UDD leadership, work though in differing degrees, and depending on occasion together.

The Radio station are more complex, especially regarding their relationship with the UDD. There are also different models of the Radio Stations, which have been developed quite a bit from the early models of Shinawat Habunprad's Taxi Radio Station, Kwanchai's Udon Lovers or the also under Red Shirts highly disputed Chiangmai 51. There are also huge numbers of grassroots organizations which are to varying degrees close to the UDD, or directly under UDD hierarchy. There is no simple model though.

A new development are the Red Shirt villages, where it is yet too early to state too much about them, other than that this is mostly grass roots grown organization. Nevertheless, this movement has its own sort of leadership, but their structures are still in development. While PT party MP's and Red Shirt leaders have been at opening ceremonies, they are still quite adamant that they are not under UDD authority. One of their initiators has told me once that they will collaborate with the UDD when they feel that it is the right thing to do so, but when they don't feel so - they will not.

Basically - the Red Shirt movement is far larger and more complex than many think it is, and their relationship with Pueah Thai Party is even more complicated. There are huge differences in Ideology, tactics or strategy. What though combines all Red Shirts is their wish for democracy, the parliamentary system, to bring the military under the control of elected governments, and the end the power of what they define as "Amart" - the traditional elites.

That is it as brief as i can manage.

Thank you for the brief, insightful look into the Red Shirt structure. Basically it's worse than I've imagined. You have all these people running around with different ideas on how to bring (uphold) their version of Thai Democracy thus divisions within a division. While you're against propaganda, take a look at what you've written here and count how many channels of propaganda you've mentioned. It's no wonder why it's spreading like cancer. You do realize there are regular people affected by this right? Man this is becoming like Christianity... no offense, just stating that there are many divisions of the same faith. Sadly, this is all brought to surface by one megalomaniac man manipulating the masses by exploiting their weakness in poverty.

But back to the OP... Reds Do Everything To Help Their Own.

It may not be about Thaksin any more.......

What do you think if that is true ???

[rubl]

begin removed ...

I would suggest to discuss these things with Red Shirts themselves instead of just discussing this on the forum here in which there is not a single Red Shirt i am aware off.

You could have fooled me

[serenitynow]

So Nick and others, if those small radio-stations - spewing vile propaganda and lies - aren't representative of UDD and Red Shirts, alright.

Then tell me, who is? Is Jutaporn, Red Shirt leader and PT MP? Turn your TV to channel Voice TV now and it shows him being out by people close to flooding, doing propaganda speeches from the back of a truck/improvised stage. Is he representative?

Basically they are all "Red Shirts" or part of the 'Red Shirt movement'.

The Red Shirt movement consists of several independent groups. The largest group is the UDD, of which Jatuporn, Nattawut, etc are the main leaders. Until last year, together with about 20 something leaders formed the central committee of the UDD, with Veera Musikapong as their chairman. This set up has collapsed after the crackdown. In December 2010 the new acting central committee was formed, with Tida Thawornset as a chairwoman, and several other leaders as committee members. Nevertheless, while Jaturporn, Nattawut and Dr. Weng have no "official" position in the Red Shirt leadership - the are though the most loved leaders.

Besides the UDD the Red Shirts have many independent subgroups of varying size, such as Sombat's Red Sunday, The 24th of June Group, or what was formerly known as Daeng Siam, or Red Siam, who have split from the UDD after the 2009 crackdown, have now though been as a group dissolved, are though still existing as an alliance of sub groups. All these groups are not under the authority of the UDD leadership, work though in differing degrees, and depending on occasion together.

The Radio station are more complex, especially regarding their relationship with the UDD. There are also different models of the Radio Stations, which have been developed quite a bit from the early models of Shinawat Habunprad's Taxi Radio Station, Kwanchai's Udon Lovers or the also under Red Shirts highly disputed Chiangmai 51. There are also huge numbers of grassroots organizations which are to varying degrees close to the UDD, or directly under UDD hierarchy. There is no simple model though.

A new development are the Red Shirt villages, where it is yet too early to state too much about them, other than that this is mostly grass roots grown organization. Nevertheless, this movement has its own sort of leadership, but their structures are still in development. While PT party MP's and Red Shirt leaders have been at opening ceremonies, they are still quite adamant that they are not under UDD authority. One of their initiators has told me once that they will collaborate with the UDD when they feel that it is the right thing to do so, but when they don't feel so - they will not.

Basically - the Red Shirt movement is far larger and more complex than many think it is, and their relationship with Pueah Thai Party is even more complicated. There are huge differences in Ideology, tactics or strategy. What though combines all Red Shirts is their wish for democracy, the parliamentary system, to bring the military under the control of elected governments, and the end the power of what they define as "Amart" - the traditional elites.

That is it as brief as i can manage.

Thank you for the brief, insightful look into the Red Shirt structure. Basically it's worse than I've imagined. You have all these people running around with different ideas on how to bring (uphold) their version of Thai Democracy thus divisions within a division. While you're against propaganda, take a look at what you've written here and count how many channels of propaganda you've mentioned. It's no wonder why it's spreading like cancer. You do realize there are regular people affected by this right? Man this is becoming like Christianity... no offense, just stating that there are many divisions of the same faith. Sadly, this is all brought to surface by one megalomaniac man manipulating the masses by exploiting their weakness in poverty.

But back to the OP... Reds Do Everything To Help Their Own.

It may not be about Thaksin any more.......

What do you think if that is true ???

I think that would be a fantastically positive development if it were true. Aside from the factionalization and no one ever taking responsibility for criminal acts commited, I think peoples chief objections to this amorphous movement is that a criminal cabal seems to overlaid itself upon it and calls itself their leaders. I wish those people would clean out the garbage, but I'm not hopeful at all.

[ThaiOats]

First, I don't want to misrepresent myself when I said "multi-colored shirt", I should've said "any shirt, no shirt, or whatever shirt that has no political representation" sorry for the confusion and thanks for the reminder. As you mention, facts speak for themselves and unless there was mass delusion, people have seen the provocative speeches by the Red-Shirt leaders and the cheers that followed. People died, including soldiers who bleeds blood as much as the protesters. Even if there were just a small group of armed protesters, the fact the matter is that they represent the Reds and protesters did nothing to stop them from using violence. Do you really think the Army would have any justification to use live rounds if the protesters were truly unarmed? Jakrapob said in an interview that the Reds would not carry weapons, they would not disrupt the ASEAN summit and what happened? You can't just brush it off and say that it has gotten a bit out of control, the leash snapped.

Let's look at this small faction of Reds doing their own thing scenario. Are the leaders and Red community ready to come out on their TV stations and media channels to stop small groups from doing distasteful things? Highly unlikely, to do so would cause rifts within their own organization. If there's any reprimanding to do, it would most likely be kept low-key, and probably the reason why Chalerm has been so quiet since he was taking in so much negativity.

The positive aspects of the Reds such as helping people in the floods is something everyone should be doing without trying to score brownie points. There are things that you SHOULD be doing, and there are things that you SHOULDN'T be doing and it's the latter that gets most of the criticism. The existence of Red shirts make people hesitate to freely speak their mind, any criticism towards their "savior" is frowned upon, possibly inviting some sort of vengeance. It's fear. The fear that word might get around affecting their social life, their businesses, maybe even onto their children. Prior to the Red Shirt movement people didn't need to fear to openly express themselves at the local level.

I fear the Reds will continue to exist a long time, possibly indoctrinate from generation to generation, a political preference and furthering the division of Thailand. You're right, it's a movement unseen before in Thailand....

I am not going here into a discussion over last year's events. This has been covered in many fruitless debates before. The only thing i can say is that yes, there were armed militants under the Red Shirts, and yes there were quite a few incidents in which the army has fired at unarmed protesters and killed them. Several times in my directly next to me people were shot and killed, and i was fired upon as well by the army.

Chalerm has never been part of the Red Shirt movement, has never spoken at any Red Shirt stage. By far not all Pueah Thai politicians are Red Shirts.

And you are very wrong about criticism about Thaksin. One of the Red Shirt main leaders - Dr. Weng Tojirakarn - was even briefly part of the PAD before the military coup.

I would suggest to discuss these things with Red Shirts themselves instead of just discussing this on the forum here in which there is not a single Red Shirt i am aware off.

What I'm suggesting is that they're all on the same boat and to reprimand anyone openly isn't going to help their cause.

You're comparing one or even hundreds of people against millions when it comes to criticism of Thaksin. It's safe to assume that 99% of the Red Shirt movement is for Thaksin, as suggested in their motive of bringing him back (and his posters, villages, t-shirts etc.)

So you really think there's no Red Shirt in here or at least a husband/relative of one?

[thaicbr]

Explain Weng and Tida, as old school red as it comes, old jungle hiders from the bad old days, and in leadership and organization seats now. A last hurrah so to speak..

Again, no.

Both Weng and Tida are not "old school red as it comes" - on the opposite. Both are very educated and extremely well read. Tida is a brilliant strategist. I have often talked with Tida about how she sees her former self as a member of the CPT Central Committee and her role under the Red Shirts, and she has pointed out the mistakes she and the other communists have made back in the 70's, especially regarding the use of violence and the use of an ideology that was unacceptable to the majority of the population, that she does not want to repeat those mistakes again. Both know very well that the only way that the Red Shirts can succeed is not by following a radical ideology.

Maybe they learnt that from POL POT who was also very well educated for his time.. didn't stop him and his other well educated communists from nearly destroying Cambodia did it.

[Thaddeus]

So Nick and others, if those small radio-stations - spewing vile propaganda and lies - aren't representative of UDD and Red Shirts, alright.

Then tell me, who is? Is Jutaporn, Red Shirt leader and PT MP? Turn your TV to channel Voice TV now and it shows him being out by people close to flooding, doing propaganda speeches from the back of a truck/improvised stage. Is he representative?

Basically they are all "Red Shirts" or part of the 'Red Shirt movement'.

The Red Shirt movement consists of several independent groups. The largest group is the UDD, of which Jatuporn, Nattawut, etc are the main leaders. Until last year, together with about 20 something leaders formed the central committee of the UDD, with Veera Musikapong as their chairman. This set up has collapsed after the crackdown. In December 2010 the new acting central committee was formed, with Tida Thawornset as a chairwoman, and several other leaders as committee members. Nevertheless, while Jaturporn, Nattawut and Dr. Weng have no "official" position in the Red Shirt leadership - the are though the most loved leaders.

Besides the UDD the Red Shirts have many independent subgroups of varying size, such as Sombat's Red Sunday, The 24th of June Group, or what was formerly known as Daeng Siam, or Red Siam, who have split from the UDD after the 2009 crackdown, have now though been as a group dissolved, are though still existing as an alliance of sub groups. All these groups are not under the authority of the UDD leadership, work though in differing degrees, and depending on occasion together.

The Radio station are more complex, especially regarding their relationship with the UDD. There are also different models of the Radio Stations, which have been developed quite a bit from the early models of Shinawat Habunprad's Taxi Radio Station, Kwanchai's Udon Lovers or the also under Red Shirts highly disputed Chiangmai 51. There are also huge numbers of grassroots organizations which are to varying degrees close to the UDD, or directly under UDD hierarchy. There is no simple model though.

A new development are the Red Shirt villages, where it is yet too early to state too much about them, other than that this is mostly grass roots grown organization. Nevertheless, this movement has its own sort of leadership, but their structures are still in development. While PT party MP's and Red Shirt leaders have been at opening ceremonies, they are still quite adamant that they are not under UDD authority. One of their initiators has told me once that they will collaborate with the UDD when they feel that it is the right thing to do so, but when they don't feel so - they will not.

Basically - the Red Shirt movement is far larger and more complex than many think it is, and their relationship with Pueah Thai Party is even more complicated. There are huge differences in Ideology, tactics or strategy. What though combines all Red Shirts is their wish for democracy, the parliamentary system, to bring the military under the control of elected governments, and the end the power of what they define as "Amart" - the traditional elites.

That is it as brief as i can manage.

Thank you for the brief, insightful look into the Red Shirt structure. Basically it's worse than I've imagined. You have all these people running around with different ideas on how to bring (uphold) their version of Thai Democracy thus divisions within a division. While you're against propaganda, take a look at what you've written here and count how many channels of propaganda you've mentioned. It's no wonder why it's spreading like cancer. You do realize there are regular people affected by this right? Man this is becoming like Christianity... no offense, just stating that there are many divisions of the same faith. Sadly, this is all brought to surface by one megalomaniac man manipulating the masses by exploiting their weakness in poverty.

But back to the OP... Reds Do Everything To Help Their Own.

It may not be about Thaksin any more.......

What do you think if that is true ???

It may not all be about the great man himself, but it is certainly all about the path he started.

A bunch of wanna be T's with less charm and fewer functioning brain cells (if that was possible)

Not a good prospect for the country.

[GentlemanJim]

Explain Weng and Tida, as old school red as it comes, old jungle hiders from the bad old days, and in leadership and organization seats now. A last hurrah so to speak..

Again, no.

Both Weng and Tida are not "old school red as it comes" - on the opposite. Both are very educated and extremely well read. Tida is a brilliant strategist. I have often talked with Tida about how she sees her former self as a member of the CPT Central Committee and her role under the Red Shirts, and she has pointed out the mistakes she and the other communists have made back in the 70's, especially regarding the use of violence and the use of an ideology that was unacceptable to the majority of the population, that she does not want to repeat those mistakes again. Both know very well that the only way that the Red Shirts can succeed is not by following a radical ideology.

So Nick, you would agree then that they are still Communists, they just don't want to have the violence, is that it? And if they are Communists then just what is the ultimate goal as far as they are concerned for Thailand? Just what is Tilda's strategic vision? A one party democracy, Governed by a President is the set up most Communists wish for. I fear that Red will be the colour of this fair lands streets.

[nicknostitz]

It may not be about Thaksin any more.......

What do you think if that is true ???

I think that would be a fantastically positive development if it were true. Aside from the factionalization and no one ever taking responsibility for criminal acts commited, I think peoples chief objections to this amorphous movement is that a criminal cabal seems to overlaid itself upon it and calls itself their leaders. I wish those people would clean out the garbage, but I'm not hopeful at all.

For the foreseeable future Thaksin will stay a large part, or symbol, of this movement as a whole, even if there are minority groups under the Red Shirts that dislike Thaksin almost as much as the Democrats. For those groups mostly though their idea of changes are quite more... lets say... radical.

But regardless, people who do like Thaksin have the right to like him. They have voted for him, and their vote was taken away by the 2006 military coup. It does not really matter if us foreigners here like him or not - it is Thais that cast their vote, and have to decide over who will be their prime minister, and not us. The same way, people who dislike Thaksin, and will note vote for him (or whoever stands in his place) have a right to feel that way.

[nicknostitz]

Thank you for the brief, insightful look into the Red Shirt structure. Basically it's worse than I've imagined. You have all these people running around with different ideas on how to bring (uphold) their version of Thai Democracy thus divisions within a division. While you're against propaganda, take a look at what you've written here and count how many channels of propaganda you've mentioned. It's no wonder why it's spreading like cancer. You do realize there are regular people affected by this right? Man this is becoming like Christianity... no offense, just stating that there are many divisions of the same faith. Sadly, this is all brought to surface by one megalomaniac man manipulating the masses by exploiting their weakness in poverty.

But back to the OP... Reds Do Everything To Help Their Own.

People running around with different ideas. That sounds just like... democracy!

[Buchholz]

As valid an exchange today as it was when written a year ago.

Still waiting for that separation to occur.

To overcome that stumbling block requires the non-violent Red supporters to remove themselves from the Red leadership and PTP. Until that occurs, the bond that labels them together as one will remain inextricable. I think nothing short of scrapping the Red Shirt movement and starting afresh without those Red leaders and PTP will achieve that.

As long as the Thaksin/Red Shirt/PTP connections remain, the labeling is rather justified. When Red Shirts continue to hold Thaksin aloft and the PTP calls him their "policy maker", how can it not be justified? If they wish to divorce themselves from those labels, they need to divorce themselves from the Red leaders and Thaksin.

I find very few posts that don't support the labor class and their legitimate problems. What I see more commonly is suggestions that they find another avenue with which to pursue relief from their admittedly heavy burden. That change will necessarily have to come from them, but for now, too many seem to continue to pursue Thaksin and the Red leaders as their messiah, which is unfortunate, because I don't see them accomplishing their goals while wearing that yoke. It's not going to be an easy task for them, but their worthwhile cause will hopefully be achieved once they strip themselves of those radicals. As for the anti-monarchy claims, I have no doubt that the majority of Reds don't share those views. However, until the Reds come out and completely disown the likes of Giles and Jakrapob, that label, too, will remain. The Reds need to be clear and forthright and loudly proclaim that that aspect of their movement doesn't represent them. Until now, that's not occurred.

Says it all perfectly. The red sympathisers had no answer to the points raised in the above three weeks ago, and nothing will have changed.

It's easy for an individual to say they don't want this or that leader. When it comes to an umbrella group containing several factions like the red shirts it becomes more difficult.

How do you envisage those red shirts who aren't that interested in Taksin and who abhor violence to show it? Do you think they should organize a rally and carry banners saying 'We don't like Taksin' and 'We hate violence'? Not even anti-reds do that, but people do in other countries (e.g. Spanish public rallies against ETA violence, Mexican public rallies against cartel violence etc). And who should organize such a rally for the redshirts? The same leaders most of us have already agreed are unsuitable for their roles?

There have been painfully few political leaders who ever held their own constituents' interests above their own personal ones, on any side. And now suddenly you expect some kind of messianic figure to emerge from the red shirt ranks and make it a key policy to allay your fears. Well, I wish that would happen too, but I'm surprised you think this could ever be possible in a country with a political environment like Thailand's.

And by pinning your disdain for the entire red shirt movement on the impossibility of what you demand you are very clearly, very consciously ensuring you will never have to contemplate supporting any of their demands.

Several of the things that you said, apparently facetiously, are exactly some of the things they DO need to do if they ever hope to have even the slightest bit of credibility, eg. carry banners that both denounce any association with Thaksin and the anti-royals.

They do need someone new to lead. Until they do, it's Thaksin. If they are serious about forging ahead out of his shadow, it's mandatory. They and you might not like that and produce a list of excuses of why they can't, but at this point there has not even been a meager attempt to separate PTP=Thaksin=Reds.

The opposite has been occurring as it has been reinforced on a daily basis. Nearly every news headline, issue, speech, lawsuit, etc. for several weeks has all been about connecting the three.

I do agree, it ain't easy to separate and drop Thaksin, but life isn't easy and this is one of those times.

I sincerely wish them well in their endeavors to air their legitimate concerns, but they have to drop the bastard like the SOB he is first and foremost.

[nicknostitz]

So Nick, you would agree then that they are still Communists, they just don't want to have the violence, is that it? And if they are Communists then just what is the ultimate goal as far as they are concerned for Thailand? Just what is Tilda's strategic vision? A one party democracy, Governed by a President is the set up most Communists wish for. I fear that Red will be the colour of this fair lands streets.

No, they are not communists anymore.

No, Tida has on numerous occasions in public (and in private conversations) said that her movement is about respecting the outcome of elections, whichever party will win. There has been no indication and no evidence whatsoever that there are aspirations of the UDD, or of the Red Shirts as a whole, towards a one party state.

This strange notion is only flying around here on Thaivisa.

[Buchholz]

begin removed ...

I would suggest to discuss these things with Red Shirts themselves instead of just discussing this on the forum here in which there is not a single Red Shirt i am aware off.

You could have fooled me

I seem to recall reading Koo82 as saying she was a Red Shirt, as well as others.

.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Buchholz

[nicknostitz]

begin removed ...

I would suggest to discuss these things with Red Shirts themselves instead of just discussing this on the forum here in which there is not a single Red Shirt i am aware off.

You could have fooled me

I seem to recall reading Koo82 as saying she was a Red Shirt, as well as others.

.

Yes, and i am sure that this forum must have welcomed her with open arms. Well, until she was banned.

Are there presently any Red Shirts actively taking part in the discussions? Not any that i have seen.

[ThaiOats]

Thank you for the brief, insightful look into the Red Shirt structure. Basically it's worse than I've imagined. You have all these people running around with different ideas on how to bring (uphold) their version of Thai Democracy thus divisions within a division. While you're against propaganda, take a look at what you've written here and count how many channels of propaganda you've mentioned. It's no wonder why it's spreading like cancer. You do realize there are regular people affected by this right? Man this is becoming like Christianity... no offense, just stating that there are many divisions of the same faith. Sadly, this is all brought to surface by one megalomaniac man manipulating the masses by exploiting their weakness in poverty.

But back to the OP... Reds Do Everything To Help Their Own.

People running around with different ideas. That sounds just like... democracy!

Ok let me rephrase that for you.. "You have all these Red Shirt people running around with different ideas on how to bring what they believe is Democracy" and to add: "a Democracy filled with nepotism, unreliable system of check and balances under the proposed "Thaksin Thinks, Pheu Thai Acts (which is saying ONE man rules)" So yep, sounds like Democracy.

So Nick, how many people have you asked "What is a Democratic government?" Ask the middle aged majority of the rural poor people who fight so hard for Democracy. Ask them what is the system of check and balances and what should happen if it became unreliable through nepotism? Or if there should even be such a system where once given the mandate, the government can do whatever they want.

Edited October 30, 2011 by ThaiOats

[GentlemanJim]

So Nick, you would agree then that they are still Communists, they just don't want to have the violence, is that it? And if they are Communists then just what is the ultimate goal as far as they are concerned for Thailand? Just what is Tilda's strategic vision? A one party democracy, Governed by a President is the set up most Communists wish for. I fear that Red will be the colour of this fair lands streets.

No, they are not communists anymore.

No, Tida has on numerous occasions in public (and in private conversations) said that her movement is about respecting the outcome of elections, whichever party will win. There has been no indication and no evidence whatsoever that there are aspirations of the UDD, or of the Red Shirts as a whole, towards a one party state.

This strange notion is only flying around here on Thaivisa.

I don't believe Tilda is not a Communist anymore. What is 'her movement'. You don't just drop an Ideology like that when you are in Politics. However well it is hidden at the moment it is deep rooted. I am all for respecting the outcome of elections, when those elections have been held in a fair and corruption free manner, regardless of party.

But regardless, people who do like Thaksin have the right to like him. They have voted for him, and their vote was taken away by the 2006 military coup. It does not really matter if us foreigners here like him or not - it is Thais that cast their vote, and have to decide over who will be their prime minister, and not us. The same way, people who dislike Thaksin, and will note vote for him (or whoever stands in his place) have a right to feel that way.

Now this always makes me laugh. Thaksin did not have power taken away from him in 2006. He took it away from himself didn't he. Faced with mounting claims of corruption and mass protests calling for his resignation he dissolved parliament in Feb 2006. He then called for early elections which the opposition boycotted. The courts then annulled the elections planned for April 2006, and in Sept, prior to the next Elections, still with a dissolved parliament the Army stepped in. Thaksin was trying to play a clever game and was caught out. Parliament was in fact dissolved by Thaksin, long before any coup, a fact most media seem to ignore or are unaware of. The Army over threw a caretaker Government Thaksin had put in place.

Edited October 30, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[animatic]

1319987081[/url]' post='4808943']

1319986614[/url]' post='4808927']

Explain Weng and Tida, as old school red as it comes, old jungle hiders from the bad old days, and in leadership and organization seats now. A last hurrah so to speak..

Again, no.

Both Weng and Tida are not "old school red as it comes" - on the opposite. Both are very educated and extremely well read. Tida is a brilliant strategist. I have often talked with Tida about how she sees her former self as a member of the CPT Central Committee and her role under the Red Shirts, and she has pointed out the mistakes she and the other communists have made back in the 70's, especially regarding the use of violence and the use of an ideology that was unacceptable to the majority of the population, that she does not want to repeat those mistakes again. Both know very well that the only way that the Red Shirts can succeed is not by following a radical ideology.

Chez Guevara was a medical doctor, most of the french far left is highly educated. Often the communist leaderships have been intelectuals, leading the proletariate to the philosophial promised land. So that doesn't bypass the issue. So if they went to far 30 years ago, they are just dialing it back niw, but has the core goal changed that much. They can't succede except by being radical. Which for many translates to; dangerous loose cannons, making change that will spin out of control..

[thaicbr]

Thank you for the brief, insightful look into the Red Shirt structure. Basically it's worse than I've imagined. You have all these people running around with different ideas on how to bring (uphold) their version of Thai Democracy thus divisions within a division. While you're against propaganda, take a look at what you've written here and count how many channels of propaganda you've mentioned. It's no wonder why it's spreading like cancer. You do realize there are regular people affected by this right? Man this is becoming like Christianity... no offense, just stating that there are many divisions of the same faith. Sadly, this is all brought to surface by one megalomaniac man manipulating the masses by exploiting their weakness in poverty.

But back to the OP... Reds Do Everything To Help Their Own.

People running around with different ideas. That sounds just like... democracy!

Actually it sounds more like anarchy.. people with different ideas talking them through rationally that sound like .... democracy.

Quick question do ALL the people in RED villages support the REDS. If the answer is no, were is the democracy ?

[nicknostitz]

Ok let me rephrase that for you.. "You have all these Red Shirt people running around with different ideas on how to bring what they believe is Democracy" and to add: "a Democracy filled with nepotism, unreliable system of check and balances under the proposed "Thaksin Thinks, Pheu Thai Acts (which is saying ONE man rules)" So yep, sounds like Democracy.

So Nick, how many people have you asked "What is Democracy?" Ask the middle aged majority of the rural poor people who fight so hard for Democracy. Ask them what is the system of check and balances and what should happen if it became unreliable through nepotism?

There are many ongoing discussions about exactly those questions in the Red Shirts, and much evolution took already place.

As to nepotism, weakening of checks and balances - this indeed has occurred under Thaksin, and more so under the Democrat led government.

Democracy takes time to develop, it isn't just there when you wake up in the morning, not in a country like Thailand and its more than checkered history of military coups and dictatorships and weak semi-managed pseudo democracies.

People running around with different ideas on what they believe is democracy and engaging in active discussion on their ideas is the basic premise for the development of democracy, one day in the future. This has to take place this way here as the parliamentary system is far to restricted when it comes to expressing political ideas, when Thailand is still in the political stone age and does not allow people to found a socialist party, and when the legal situation is so restrictive that in the public sphere any debate on certain issues is simply banned, and this way forced into the underground (which does not hinder Thais to debate those issues, on the opposite - the more suppression, the more active the debate became.

And yes, over the past years i have regularly asked Red Shirts over the meaning of democracy. As time passes, the answers become more qualified, which i think is a positive trend. That doesn't mean that there is still much wrong, and that there have been many incidents that show a clear lack of understanding of certain basics of democracy under many Red Shirts. If you discuss this with Red Shirts, you will find out that many will readily admit to this.

Basically, give it time, and lets see then. I am a bit tired of all this negativity here. The sky is not falling down just because the Red Shirts exist.

[nicknostitz]

I don't believe Tilda is not a Communist anymore.

"Believe" belongs into the church, and not into an informed discussion. Unless you can show me clear and documented evidence that Tida indeed is still a communist it is rather fruitless to continue this conversation as you can counter anything what i write here with what you believe.

Sorry.

[animatic]

1319997031[/url]' post='4809215']

1319996497[/url]' post='4809205']

So Nick, you would agree then that they are still Communists, they just don't want to have the violence, is that it? And if they are Communists then just what is the ultimate goal as far as they are concerned for Thailand? Just what is Tilda's strategic vision? A one party democracy, Governed by a President is the set up most Communists wish for. I fear that Red will be the colour of this fair lands streets.

No, they are not communists anymore.

No, Tida has on numerous occasions in public (and in private conversations) said that her movement is about respecting the outcome of elections, whichever party will win. There has been no indication and no evidence whatsoever that there are aspirations of the UDD, or of the Red Shirts as a whole, towards a one party state.

This strange notion is only flying around here on Thaivisa.

Maybe they are now just hardcore Socialists, Trotsky is out, but Arletty is in.

The red indoctrination schools sure fit the maoist playbook....

Other than the beatings and refusal to let Dems campaign freely without fear of violent reprisals. An open ballot with all competing voices freely heard in all districts. But we know that is not how the reds have allowed it in their areas, as seen VERY clearly in many wide ranging media reports.

Yes, reds won't shut down opposition parties, well not so far... As long as they only talk were reds say they can. Democracy...

Oh right I forgot thats how it works, they are mistaken everywhere else..

Edited October 30, 2011 by animatic