Pheu Thai And Red Shirts Do Nothing To Help Their Own

[nicknostitz]

Other than the beatings and refusal to let Dems campaign freely without fear of violent reprisals. An open ballot with all competing voices freely heard in all districts. But we know that is not how the reds have allowed it in their areas, as seen VERY clearly in many wide ranging media reports. Yes, reds won't shut dow opposition parties, well not so far... As long as they only talk were reds say they can. Democracy...Oh right I forgot thats how it works, they are mistaken everywhere else..

This is an extremist position that simply is not reflected by reality. All international observers have stated that on the whole this last election was free and fair.

Both sides have stepped over the line on occasion (Red Shirts shouting at Abhisit, military and ISOC trying to "persuade" people not to vote for Puaeh Thai, etc.), but this was definitely not as systematic as you imply here.

[GentlemanJim]

Ok let me rephrase that for you.. "You have all these Red Shirt people running around with different ideas on how to bring what they believe is Democracy" and to add: "a Democracy filled with nepotism, unreliable system of check and balances under the proposed "Thaksin Thinks, Pheu Thai Acts (which is saying ONE man rules)" So yep, sounds like Democracy.

So Nick, how many people have you asked "What is Democracy?" Ask the middle aged majority of the rural poor people who fight so hard for Democracy. Ask them what is the system of check and balances and what should happen if it became unreliable through nepotism?

There are many ongoing discussions about exactly those questions in the Red Shirts, and much evolution took already place.

As to nepotism, weakening of checks and balances - this indeed has occurred under Thaksin, and more so under the Democrat led government.

Democracy takes time to develop, it isn't just there when you wake up in the morning, not in a country like Thailand and its more than checkered history of military coups and dictatorships and weak semi-managed pseudo democracies.

People running around with different ideas on what they believe is democracy and engaging in active discussion on their ideas is the basic premise for the development of democracy, one day in the future. This has to take place this way here as the parliamentary system is far to restricted when it comes to expressing political ideas, when Thailand is still in the political stone age and does not allow people to found a socialist party, and when the legal situation is so restrictive that in the public sphere any debate on certain issues is simply banned, and this way forced into the underground (which does not hinder Thais to debate those issues, on the opposite - the more suppression, the more active the debate became.

And yes, over the past years i have regularly asked Red Shirts over the meaning of democracy. As time passes, the answers become more qualified, which i think is a positive trend. That doesn't mean that there is still much wrong, and that there have been many incidents that show a clear lack of understanding of certain basics of democracy under many Red Shirts. If you discuss this with Red Shirts, you will find out that many will readily admit to this.

Basically, give it time, and lets see then. I am a bit tired of all this negativity here. The sky is not falling down just because the Red Shirts exist.

What an interesting last sentence. Why is it negative? I thought you were a journo claiming to be objective. That means both sides of a story, without an agenda to favour one or the other. If someone else's perception appears far more negative than yours then you should be asking why is that? It does not matter whether the perception is right or wrong, for the individual concerned it is a reality and therefore the underlying reasons need to be explored if you are to be objective. You just may have missed something important otherwise.

[thaicbr]

Ok let me rephrase that for you.. "You have all these Red Shirt people running around with different ideas on how to bring what they believe is Democracy" and to add: "a Democracy filled with nepotism, unreliable system of check and balances under the proposed "Thaksin Thinks, Pheu Thai Acts (which is saying ONE man rules)" So yep, sounds like Democracy.

So Nick, how many people have you asked "What is Democracy?" Ask the middle aged majority of the rural poor people who fight so hard for Democracy. Ask them what is the system of check and balances and what should happen if it became unreliable through nepotism?

There are many ongoing discussions about exactly those questions in the Red Shirts, and much evolution took already place.

As to nepotism, weakening of checks and balances - this indeed has occurred under Thaksin, and more so under the Democrat led government.

Democracy takes time to develop, it isn't just there when you wake up in the morning, not in a country like Thailand and its more than checkered history of military coups and dictatorships and weak semi-managed pseudo democracies.

People running around with different ideas on what they believe is democracy and engaging in active discussion on their ideas is the basic premise for the development of democracy, one day in the future. This has to take place this way here as the parliamentary system is far to restricted when it comes to expressing political ideas, when Thailand is still in the political stone age and does not allow people to found a socialist party, and when the legal situation is so restrictive that in the public sphere any debate on certain issues is simply banned, and this way forced into the underground (which does not hinder Thais to debate those issues, on the opposite - the more suppression, the more active the debate became.

And yes, over the past years i have regularly asked Red Shirts over the meaning of democracy. As time passes, the answers become more qualified, which i think is a positive trend. That doesn't mean that there is still much wrong, and that there have been many incidents that show a clear lack of understanding of certain basics of democracy under many Red Shirts. If you discuss this with Red Shirts, you will find out that many will readily admit to this.

Basically, give it time, and lets see then. I am a bit tired of all this negativity here. The sky is not falling down just because the Red Shirts exist.

Good answer. And i'm glad that the Thai people are opening their eyes to what democracy is... what the reds now need to do as and when this current flooding disaster is over. Is to tell the world what they consider democracy is in their eyes (to many ex communists can spoil the view, especially with red villages)

[nicknostitz]

What an interesting last sentence. Why is it negative? I thought you were a journo claiming to be objective. That means both sides of a story, without an agenda to favour one or the other. If someone else's perception appears far more negative than yours then you should be asking why is that? It does not matter whether the perception is right or wrong, for the individual concerned it is a reality and therefore the underlying reasons need to be explored if you are to be objective. You just may have missed something important otherwise.

Yes, in case of Thavisa it clearly is lack of information that leads to this negativity (and not just in political discussions, but also in many discussion that touch cultural issues).

Anyhow, i am tired and gotta go to bed now. Good night.

Edited October 30, 2011 by nicknostitz

[animatic]

1319999536[/url]' post='4809259']

1319999264[/url]' post='4809254']

Other than the beatings and refusal to let Dems campaign freely without fear of violent reprisals. An open ballot with all competing voices freely heard in all districts. But we know that is not how the reds have allowed it in their areas, as seen VERY clearly in many wide ranging media reports. Yes, reds won't shut dow opposition parties, well not so far... As long as they only talk were reds say they can. Democracy...Oh right I forgot thats how it works, they are mistaken everywhere else..

This is an extremist position that simply is not reflected by reality. All international observers have stated that on the whole this last election was free and fair.

Both sides have stepped over the line on occasion (Red Shirts shouting at Abhisit, military and ISOC trying to "persuade" people not to vote for Puaeh Thai, etc.), but this was definitely not as systematic as you imply here.

And throwing rotten canned fish of course.Yes there was better behavior this round, not acceptably good, just better.

[rubl]

I don't believe Tilda is not a Communist anymore.

"Believe" belongs into the church, and not into an informed discussion. Unless you can show me clear and documented evidence that Tida indeed is still a communist it is rather fruitless to continue this conversation as you can counter anything what i write here with what you believe.

Sorry.

You believe from what you say you have gathered from talking with k. Thida.

Anyway, it's getting too late, off to bed. I hope you guys have fun here tonight

[nicknostitz]

Good answer. And i'm glad that the Thai people are opening their eyes to what democracy is... what the reds now need to do as and when this current flooding disaster is over. Is to tell the world what they consider democracy is in their eyes (to many ex communists can spoil the view, especially with red villages)

Well, the main initiator of the Red Village movement is hardly a communist - he is a retired police officer.

Anyhow, good night, i really am sort of discussed out.

[ThaiOats]

Ok let me rephrase that for you.. "You have all these Red Shirt people running around with different ideas on how to bring what they believe is Democracy" and to add: "a Democracy filled with nepotism, unreliable system of check and balances under the proposed "Thaksin Thinks, Pheu Thai Acts (which is saying ONE man rules)" So yep, sounds like Democracy.

So Nick, how many people have you asked "What is Democracy?" Ask the middle aged majority of the rural poor people who fight so hard for Democracy. Ask them what is the system of check and balances and what should happen if it became unreliable through nepotism?

There are many ongoing discussions about exactly those questions in the Red Shirts, and much evolution took already place.

As to nepotism, weakening of checks and balances - this indeed has occurred under Thaksin, and more so under the Democrat led government.

Democracy takes time to develop, it isn't just there when you wake up in the morning, not in a country like Thailand and its more than checkered history of military coups and dictatorships and weak semi-managed pseudo democracies.

People running around with different ideas on what they believe is democracy and engaging in active discussion on their ideas is the basic premise for the development of democracy, one day in the future. This has to take place this way here as the parliamentary system is far to restricted when it comes to expressing political ideas, when Thailand is still in the political stone age and does not allow people to found a socialist party, and when the legal situation is so restrictive that in the public sphere any debate on certain issues is simply banned, and this way forced into the underground (which does not hinder Thais to debate those issues, on the opposite - the more suppression, the more active the debate became.

And yes, over the past years i have regularly asked Red Shirts over the meaning of democracy. As time passes, the answers become more qualified, which i think is a positive trend. That doesn't mean that there is still much wrong, and that there have been many incidents that show a clear lack of understanding of certain basics of democracy under many Red Shirts. If you discuss this with Red Shirts, you will find out that many will readily admit to this.

Basically, give it time, and lets see then. I am a bit tired of all this negativity here. The sky is not falling down just because the Red Shirts exist.

Understandable and a bit of good news. So why can't Democracy develop and mature without the Red Shirts? I don't want to make it sound like I'm cheering on the Democrats but...

1: Why did Yingluck decline to attend PNET's invitation to debate with other political parties? I think debates are important as it gives us an idea of who we're voting for. Was it not important for her or did she believe that with all the Red support it wasn't needed anyway...

2: Abhisit setting up a Shadow Cabinet to monitor the government seems like a much more logical way of being an opposition instead of spreading propaganda, inciting hatred towards the government.

3. How bad was life under Abhisit's government that people traveled from far away to attend a protest? What made them hate him personally...

[GentlemanJim]

I don't believe Tilda is not a Communist anymore.

"Believe" belongs into the church, and not into an informed discussion. Unless you can show me clear and documented evidence that Tida indeed is still a communist it is rather fruitless to continue this conversation as you can counter anything what i write here with what you believe.

Sorry.

What a disappointing cop out. So many definitions of the word 'believe' and you choose to state it belongs to the church. One definition is

"To have an opinion; think"In particular you only took part of my quote, a rather tardy journalistic practice wouldn't you agree? I said

I don't believe Tilda is not a Communist anymore. What is 'her movement'. You don't just drop an Ideology like that when you are in Politics. However well it is hidden at the moment it is deep rooted. I am all for respecting the outcome of elections, when those elections have been held in a fair and corruption free manner, regardless of party.

The bit I have highlighted took away the notion that I was using the word believe as in the churches 'blind faith', and it was based on opinion from information I have read and gathered, and historical precedence.

So, In my opinion, I believe that Tilda is still a communist. That opinion is based on the fact it is highly unlikely she has shed completely her radical ideology of 30 years ago. She has merely tempered it to make it a bit more acceptable to the masses.

[nicknostitz]

Understandable and a bit of good news. So why can't Democracy develop and mature without the Red Shirts? I don't want to make it sound like I'm cheering on the Democrats but...

1: Why did Yingluck decline to attend PNET's invitation to debate with other political parties? I think debates are important as it gives us an idea of who we're voting for. Was it not important for her or did she believe that with all the Red support it wasn't needed anyway...

2: Abhisit setting up a Shadow Cabinet to monitor the government seems like a much more logical way of being an opposition instead of spreading propaganda, inciting hatred towards the government.

3. How bad was life under Abhisit's government that people traveled from far away to attend a protest? What made them hate him personally...

Last answer ( I am really tired):

1: I guess this was election strategy. Abhisit is a very accomplished debater, and it takes a lot to catch him out (i have managed to do that only twice, and it took a whole lot of mental preparation to do that). Being a great debater though is not all. Yinluck may have the reputation on this forum as a simple puppet, but my impression of her (having spoken with her a few times) is that she is very intelligent, forceful, and knows what she wants. Yingluck's team's strategy has played well for her - she is PM, isn't she?

2: If you would have been at the Democrat election rally at Rajaprasong, you would have seen especially Suthep spreading a lot of hatred. Khunying Kalaya Soponpanich has regularly spoken at election rallies (she was also once closely associated with the PAD), and her speeches are clear hate speeches.

The Pueah Thai strategy in the elections was different, their rhetoric was unusually soft and conciliatory.

Even today the Democrats seem politically quite lost. If you listen to their statements, their main rallying point is still Thaksin. As long as the continue with in this way, my bold prediction is that they will lose elections for the foreseeable future.

3: it is more the system he represented that made Red Shirts hate him, less so him as a person.

[MAJIC]

<snip>

The Red Village movement is a very new phenomenon in the early stages of development. What can be clearly stated is that it is UDD affiliated, supported by most UDD leaders (not all though!), but so far an independent movement outside the authority of the UDD leadership.

Affiliated. Supported. But independent so that anything bad that they do can't reflect badly on the UDD.

Of course! its all very convenient and predictable.

A get out clause/ready made excuse, for the Redshirts,i.e it wasn't us,it was the splinter groups,and nothing to do with the UDD

Seems likeThe Redshirts have more sides than an Octagon!

Edited October 30, 2011 by MAJIC

[473geo]

<snip>

The Red Village movement is a very new phenomenon in the early stages of development. What can be clearly stated is that it is UDD affiliated, supported by most UDD leaders (not all though!), but so far an independent movement outside the authority of the UDD leadership.

Affiliated. Supported. But independent so that anything bad that they do can't reflect badly on the UDD.

Of course! its all very convenient and predictable.

A get out clause/ready made excuse, for the Red shirts,i.e it wasn't us,it was the splinter groups.

Seems likeThe Reds have more sides than an Octogon!

At least 7 are wasted then.......as most on this forum only appear to see 2 sides.....and one is their own.

Edited October 30, 2011 by 473geo

[thaicbr]

Good answer. And i'm glad that the Thai people are opening their eyes to what democracy is... what the reds now need to do as and when this current flooding disaster is over. Is to tell the world what they consider democracy is in their eyes (to many ex communists can spoil the view, especially with red villages)

Well, the main initiator of the Red Village movement is hardly a communist - he is a retired police officer.

Anyhow, good night, i really am sort of discussed out.

When has a job ever defined your political, social ideal. You can have communist police officers the same as communist doctors or communist university lecturers.

The same way you can have good cops and bad cops. Or cops that end up being multi millionaires. Look at the larger middle / upper class families they tend to have at least one member who is a cop. Wonder why?

Good night Nick. Have a good sleep and be back here tomorro for another round of enlightening conversation

Edited October 30, 2011 by thaicbr

[animatic]

1319997633[/url]' post='4809222']

1319997391[/url]' post='4809219']

1319994031[/url]' post='4809154']

1319992390[/url]' post='4809104']

begin removed ...

I would suggest to discuss these things with Red Shirts themselves instead of just discussing this on the forum here in which there is not a single Red Shirt i am aware off.

You could have fooled me

I seem to recall reading Koo82 as saying she was a Red Shirt, as well as others.

.

Yes, and i am sure that this forum must have welcomed her with open arms. Well, until she was banned.

Are there presently any Red Shirts actively taking part in the discussions? Not any that i have seen.

Actually we did. It only changed when others took over her handle for propaganda.She would sometimes post herself and made it most obvious more than one hand as using her handle.That caused her ban.

[Siam Simon]

Actually we did. It only changed when others took over her handle for propaganda.She would sometimes post herself and made it most obvious more than one hand as using her handle.That caused her ban.

I've looked back at this since you flagged it up, and, as a propaganda exercise it's so comically amateurish that it would've been hilarious kept on for entertainment purposes. There were several encore personae, including one which claimed to have been converted and become an acolyte of 'Mark'. Nothing much to see there, just an entertaining troll. Move along folks.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Siam Simon

[h90]

So Nick, you would agree then that they are still Communists, they just don't want to have the violence, is that it? And if they are Communists then just what is the ultimate goal as far as they are concerned for Thailand? Just what is Tilda's strategic vision? A one party democracy, Governed by a President is the set up most Communists wish for. I fear that Red will be the colour of this fair lands streets.

No, they are not communists anymore.

No, Tida has on numerous occasions in public (and in private conversations) said that her movement is about respecting the outcome of elections, whichever party will win. There has been no indication and no evidence whatsoever that there are aspirations of the UDD, or of the Red Shirts as a whole, towards a one party state.

This strange notion is only flying around here on Thaivisa.

respecting the outcome of elections: but not let the opposition promote their ideas in red areas.

Speaking about democracy but buying votes on massive scale.

Speaking about democracy but destroying the check and balance system by exchange to buerocrates to family members?

Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

[Siam Simon]

respecting the outcome of elections: but not let the opposition promote their ideas in red areas.

Speaking about democracy but buying votes on massive scale.

The elections were given the thumbs up by independant observers. Keep clutching at straws.

Speaking about democracy but destroying the check and balance system by exchange to buerocrates to family members?

Haha! A poster writing about a new government democratically elected in independantly approved free and fair elections. And a poster who keeps begging for a coup from Thailand's utterly corrupt military.

Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that so many extremists and weirdos gravitate to Thailand and appear on internet forums trying to present a parallel universe of reality. I dread to think what places like the Philippines will be like when Thailand finally earns the first world status that it's economy and masses deserve.

[thaicbr]

respecting the outcome of elections: but not let the opposition promote their ideas in red areas.

Speaking about democracy but buying votes on massive scale.

The elections were given the thumbs up by independant observers. Keep clutching at straws.

Speaking about democracy but destroying the check and balance system by exchange to buerocrates to family members?

Haha! A poster writing about a new government democratically elected in independantly approved free and fair elections. And a poster who keeps begging for a coup from Thailand's utterly corrupt military.

Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that so many extremists and weirdos gravitate to Thailand and appear on internet forums trying to present a parallel universe of reality. I dread to think what places like the Philippines will be like when Thailand finally earns the first world status that it's economy and masses deserve.

utterly corrupt military .... in what way?

how will Thailand become a 1st world country when the government fills important positions with family members???

[h90]

respecting the outcome of elections: but not let the opposition promote their ideas in red areas.

Speaking about democracy but buying votes on massive scale.

The elections were given the thumbs up by independant observers. Keep clutching at straws.

Speaking about democracy but destroying the check and balance system by exchange to buerocrates to family members?

Haha! A poster writing about a new government democratically elected in independantly approved free and fair elections. And a poster who keeps begging for a coup from Thailand's utterly corrupt military.

Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that so many extremists and weirdos gravitate to Thailand and appear on internet forums trying to present a parallel universe of reality. I dread to think what places like the Philippines will be like when Thailand finally earns the first world status that it's economy and masses deserve.

I was here when there was elections, I don't know what your independent observer saw, but I saw full scale vote buying almost everywhere. Which makes the elections not democratic. And even if they would have been democratic it would not give the government the right to exchange top positions of police, courts and they even tried at the army. I can't see any big corruption at the military in compare with the Shinawatra clan.

[animatic]

Koo82 was real when she arrived , did not last long but she was not a troll in the begining. Nice try to muddy the waters simon, no sale.

Edited October 31, 2011 by animatic

[hammered]

respecting the outcome of elections: but not let the opposition promote their ideas in red areas.

Speaking about democracy but buying votes on massive scale.

The elections were given the thumbs up by independant observers. Keep clutching at straws.

Speaking about democracy but destroying the check and balance system by exchange to buerocrates to family members?

Haha! A poster writing about a new government democratically elected in independantly approved free and fair elections. And a poster who keeps begging for a coup from Thailand's utterly corrupt military.

Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that so many extremists and weirdos gravitate to Thailand and appear on internet forums trying to present a parallel universe of reality. I dread to think what places like the Philippines will be like when Thailand finally earns the first world status that it's economy and masses deserve.

I dont think a lot of the people on here realise that the flood isnt going to justify a coup either military or legal that is going to be accepted by the people. The government maintain huge support and the people currently in flooded areas are in the majority of caused people who voted this government in and want them to now resolve the problems. A coup or lets get Abhisit back in through some shennanigans will be an utter disaster. People want those they vote for to sort things not those they dont vote for and do not trust.

And not reported as much on but talked about by virtually everybody I have listened to and in an almost totally negative manner is the role of the BMA and its Democrat governor. That the media hasnt lambasted this man when anyone flooded north of BKK's first question is why didnt Sukhumband open the gates shows at best crass Bangkokcentricness and at worst political gamesmanship. And even yesterday the BMA were playing games of not doing what FROC wanted and what they had agreed with local communities in terms of gate opening which resulted in nasty confrontations and dyke destruction.

Edited October 31, 2011 by hammered

[whybother]

<snip>

And not reported as much on but talked about by virtually everybody I have listened to and in an almost totally negative manner is the role of the BMA and its Democrat governor. That the media hasnt lambasted this man when anyone flooded north of BKK's first question is why didnt Sukhumband open the gates shows at best crass Bangkokcentricness and at worst political gamesmanship. And even yesterday the BMA were playing games of not doing what FROC wanted and what they had agreed with local communities in terms of gate opening which resulted in nasty confrontations and dyke destruction.

How would flooding Bangkok have helped anyone? All it would do is to put another 10 million people in harm's way. How does the government support that many people. They can't even manage the 2.5 million that are flooded now.

Also, the governor isn't in charge of the areas that are used to pump water OUT of the Bangkok klong system.

[nicknostitz]

Good answer. And i'm glad that the Thai people are opening their eyes to what democracy is... what the reds now need to do as and when this current flooding disaster is over. Is to tell the world what they consider democracy is in their eyes (to many ex communists can spoil the view, especially with red villages)

Well, the main initiator of the Red Village movement is hardly a communist - he is a retired police officer.

Anyhow, good night, i really am sort of discussed out.

When has a job ever defined your political, social ideal. You can have communist police officers the same as communist doctors or communist university lecturers.

The same way you can have good cops and bad cops. Or cops that end up being multi millionaires. Look at the larger middle / upper class families they tend to have at least one member who is a cop. Wonder why?

Good night Nick. Have a good sleep and be back here tomorro for another round of enlightening conversation

You have to look at Thai history and specifics here. It is more than unlikely to have communist police officers, given the civil war between communists and and the state in the past, and the way how police officers are trained and indoctrinated. Only the 2006 military coup and the Nong Bo funeral incident have changed the parameters regarding the police force's ideological and political indoctrination.

There is also quite a misconception regarding what it means to be a "communist". Generally speaking - it is not enough to just declare oneself a "communist". Being left leaning is not being a "communist". Communists have to go through very rigid party schooling, ideological indoctrination and are part of a very strict party hierarchy. The political education/indoctrination of the UDD schools have nothing in common with communist indoctrination, they are at most very slightly left leaning (and which in most European countries would be considered established party program of even conservative parties). The former communists in leading positions of the UDD have long realized that communist ideology is simply not acceptable to the majority of the Red Shirts.

There are a few small Red Shirt organizations who are more radical leftist in their ideology, but not what i would call "communist", even though older individual members are still communists. But personally i do not see this as a problem. Maybe because i am European, and in most European countries we perfectly legal communist/socialist parties, which at times are even part of coalition governments.

[hammered]

<snip>

And not reported as much on but talked about by virtually everybody I have listened to and in an almost totally negative manner is the role of the BMA and its Democrat governor. That the media hasnt lambasted this man when anyone flooded north of BKK's first question is why didnt Sukhumband open the gates shows at best crass Bangkokcentricness and at worst political gamesmanship. And even yesterday the BMA were playing games of not doing what FROC wanted and what they had agreed with local communities in terms of gate opening which resulted in nasty confrontations and dyke destruction.

How would flooding Bangkok have helped anyone? All it would do is to put another 10 million people in harm's way. How does the government support that many people. They can't even manage the 2.5 million that are flooded now.

Also, the governor isn't in charge of the areas that are used to pump water OUT of the Bangkok klong system.

Go to the flooded placers and make the arguement. While Sukhumband may be the darling of the BKK elite and their media buddies one of whom today eulogised on how he managed to ignore Yinglucks orders and stop water moving into his democrat heartlands of inner Bangkok, he is pretty despised by a lot of the great ignored in metres of flood water in the suburbs and surrounding provinces. By the way 10 million people dont live in the area he protected. Millions live in the suburbs but only those suburbs that dont always vote Dem got inundated and old Canute Sukhumband demanded police protection so his BMA boys could make sure no gates were opened that led anywhere near his heartland and it got wet. great politiciking but nothing to do with caring about the country or all standing together.

Edited to add: It is all about perceptions especially in a poltically divided and poltically charged atmosphere

Edited October 31, 2011 by hammered

[whybother]

<snip>

And not reported as much on but talked about by virtually everybody I have listened to and in an almost totally negative manner is the role of the BMA and its Democrat governor. That the media hasnt lambasted this man when anyone flooded north of BKK's first question is why didnt Sukhumband open the gates shows at best crass Bangkokcentricness and at worst political gamesmanship. And even yesterday the BMA were playing games of not doing what FROC wanted and what they had agreed with local communities in terms of gate opening which resulted in nasty confrontations and dyke destruction.

How would flooding Bangkok have helped anyone? All it would do is to put another 10 million people in harm's way. How does the government support that many people. They can't even manage the 2.5 million that are flooded now.

Also, the governor isn't in charge of the areas that are used to pump water OUT of the Bangkok klong system.

Go to the flooded placers and make the arguement. While Sukhumband may be the darling of the BKK elite and their media buddies one of whom today eulogised on how he managed to ignore Yinglucks orders and stop water moving into his democrat heartlands of inner Bangkok, he is pretty despised by a lot of the great ignored in metres of flood water in the suburbs and surrounding provinces. By the way 10 million people dont live in the area he protected. Millions live in the suburbs but only those suburbs that dont always vote Dem got inundated and old Canute Sukhumband demanded police protection so his BMA boys could make sure no gates were opened that led anywhere near his heartland and it got wet. great politiciking but nothing to do with caring about the country or all standing together.

Edited to add: It is all about perceptions especially in a poltically divided and poltically charged atmosphere

Perceptions that don't look at the reality.

So, how was flooding Bangkok going to help anyone?

[h90]

quote h90

respecting the outcome of elections: but not let the opposition promote their ideas in red areas.

Speaking about democracy but buying votes on massive scale. end quote

The elections were given the thumbs up by independant observers. Keep clutching at straws.

Speaking about democracy but destroying the check and balance system by exchange to buerocrates to family members?

Haha! A poster writing about a new government democratically elected in independantly approved free and fair elections. And a poster who keeps begging for a coup from Thailand's utterly corrupt military.

Don't you see how ridiculous that is?

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that so many extremists and weirdos gravitate to Thailand and appear on internet forums trying to present a parallel universe of reality. I dread to think what places like the Philippines will be like when Thailand finally earns the first world status that it's economy and masses deserve.

I dont think a lot of the people on here realise that the flood isnt going to justify a coup either military or legal that is going to be accepted by the people. The government maintain huge support and the people currently in flooded areas are in the majority of caused people who voted this government in and want them to now resolve the problems. A coup or lets get Abhisit back in through some shennanigans will be an utter disaster. People want those they vote for to sort things not those they dont vote for and do not trust.

And not reported as much on but talked about by virtually everybody I have listened to and in an almost totally negative manner is the role of the BMA and its Democrat governor. That the media hasnt lambasted this man when anyone flooded north of BKK's first question is why didnt Sukhumband open the gates shows at best crass Bangkokcentricness and at worst political gamesmanship. And even yesterday the BMA were playing games of not doing what FROC wanted and what they had agreed with local communities in terms of gate opening which resulted in nasty confrontations and dyke destruction.

I give up....I think we may talk from different countries....maybe one of us confuse Taiwan with Thailand, or I only missed the red schools.

[hammered]

<snip>

And not reported as much on but talked about by virtually everybody I have listened to and in an almost totally negative manner is the role of the BMA and its Democrat governor. That the media hasnt lambasted this man when anyone flooded north of BKK's first question is why didnt Sukhumband open the gates shows at best crass Bangkokcentricness and at worst political gamesmanship. And even yesterday the BMA were playing games of not doing what FROC wanted and what they had agreed with local communities in terms of gate opening which resulted in nasty confrontations and dyke destruction.

How would flooding Bangkok have helped anyone? All it would do is to put another 10 million people in harm's way. How does the government support that many people. They can't even manage the 2.5 million that are flooded now.

Also, the governor isn't in charge of the areas that are used to pump water OUT of the Bangkok klong system.

Go to the flooded placers and make the arguement. While Sukhumband may be the darling of the BKK elite and their media buddies one of whom today eulogised on how he managed to ignore Yinglucks orders and stop water moving into his democrat heartlands of inner Bangkok, he is pretty despised by a lot of the great ignored in metres of flood water in the suburbs and surrounding provinces. By the way 10 million people dont live in the area he protected. Millions live in the suburbs but only those suburbs that dont always vote Dem got inundated and old Canute Sukhumband demanded police protection so his BMA boys could make sure no gates were opened that led anywhere near his heartland and it got wet. great politiciking but nothing to do with caring about the country or all standing together.

Edited to add: It is all about perceptions especially in a poltically divided and poltically charged atmosphere

Perceptions that don't look at the reality.

So, how was flooding Bangkok going to help anyone?

Go ask the people in the flood zones. I am sure they could answer your question. I have listened to people from Pathum Thani and Nonthaburi but think it serves understanding better to listen personally.

Politics is all about perception.

[jayboy]

I was here when there was elections, I don't know what your independent observer saw, but I saw full scale vote buying almost everywhere. Which makes the elections not democratic. And even if they would have been democratic it would not give the government the right to exchange top positions of police, courts and they even tried at the army. I can't see any big corruption at the military in compare with the Shinawatra clan.

Back to the old PAD songbook I see.Let's hope this doesn't reflect a wider movement.

[whybother]

Go ask the people in the flood zones. I am sure they could answer your question. I have listened to people from Pathum Thani and Nonthaburi but think it serves understanding better to listen personally.

Politics is all about perception.

Right. Politics is all about perception, and very little about reality.

You're the one going on about how Bangkok should have been flooded. Why don't you answer the question?

[hammered]

I was here when there was elections, I don't know what your independent observer saw, but I saw full scale vote buying almost everywhere. Which makes the elections not democratic. And even if they would have been democratic it would not give the government the right to exchange top positions of police, courts and they even tried at the army. I can't see any big corruption at the military in compare with the Shinawatra clan.

Back to the old PAD songbook I see.Let's hope this doesn't reflect a wider movement.

I dont think most realise that Thaksins opponents outspend Thaksin in trying to win elections by up to three times. The source: former finance minister Korn of the democrat party. I dont think people realise that the constitution was changed by the last government to create the smaller single MP constituencies to make vote buying more effective. I dont think people realise that Thaksin is actually very very popular in much of the country as are the red shirts which is a movement that people feel part of. I think the PAD themselves actually undertand all of the above I have mentioned.