National Insurance - Uk

rio666uk · November 16, 2005

My Thai Wife has been in UK since October04, she started full-time work January05, to date her employer has never asked, mentioned or suggested getting herself a National Insurance Number... this isnt was bothers me though.

NI contributions are deducted each week from her wages, and her NI No: is "None" - as you would expect.

Can someone tell me if..

A: you've had experience of getting your thai wife/husband an NI Number and Card?

B: what are the benefits and why hasnt she been contacted previously about applying for one? - i guess its not compulsory - would it be helpfull to have next year when we apply for the "ILR visa"?

C: is it really as simple as they say on their website, just phone em and ask for an interview date, bring yer docs and there - its done! (see link at bottom of page if youre thinking of doing this)?

As always any advice is much appreciated.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/lifeevent/benefits/ni_number.asp#what

GuestHouse · November 16, 2005

You need to talk to your local Employment Office. Your wife should certainly have a National Insurance Number, if nothing else she will be building her own pension entitlement, it will also be more evidence of her commitment to living in the UK when she applies for Indefinate Leave to Remain and perhaps later Citizenship.

rio666uk · November 16, 2005

You need to talk to your local Employment Office. Your wife should certainly have a National Insurance Number, if nothing else she will be building her own pension entitlement, it will also be more evidence of her commitment to living in the UK when she applies for Indefinate Leave to Remain and perhaps later Citizenship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks GuestHouse, Im on hold to the Work & Pensions lot as we speak, hopefully get this one ticked off the "to do" list now as well.

and for anyone interested - after some more googling...

National Insurance - What do you get for your money?

Unlike income tax, NI is the basis for a range of state benefits, the retirement pension probably being the most common. Those benefits are in many cases based upon the contribution record of the individual, and are not the same for everyone. Women get a particularly poor deal at the moment with respect to this, as they often take many years off to bring up a family.

The self-employed get a poor deal too, but then they often pay less than an employed person on a similar income. For example, they are not entitled to Jobseekers' Allowance or the Second State Pension.

OxfordWill · November 16, 2005

As mentioned, get her to talk to your local council office or employment beureu (sp?). It's a short interview and a check of some documents and then she will be sent a NI number and card in the post.

khon_fused · November 16, 2005

In terms of the 'advantages' of registering to pay NI, much as there's room for debate on just how 'advantageous' it is (or indeed not) it must be remembered that it's a legal obligation and certainly adds to legitimacy when dealing with other issues (eg: ILR, citizenship).

Other than that, I can add that for my wife it certainly was a simple enough process. Just 'phone up to make an appointment and go along with all the specified documents. The only concerns we had on the day were navigating our way through the small gauntlet of already drunk guys, brandishing their bottles of wine and cans of Special Brew outside the main door of the social security office, and trying to avoid making eye contact with (or indeed look bemused at) the gaggle of young gents and ladies discussing the merits of rottweillers over pit bulls - I kid ye not, and this was the ladies debating - but the interview itself was a breeze (certainly not an interrogation in any way, shape or form), and the interviewer seemed to enjoy the experience, perhaps due to my wife's gracious air (if not mine).

Edited November 16, 2005 by khon_fused

rio666uk · November 16, 2005

In terms of the 'advantages' of registering to pay NI, much as there's room for debate on just how 'advantageous' it is (or indeed not) it must be remembered that it's a legal obligation and certainly adds to legitimacy when dealing with other issues (eg: ILR, citizenship).
Other than that, I can add that for my wife it certainly was a simple enough process. Just 'phone up to make an appointment and go along with all the specified documents. The only concerns we had on the day were navigating our way through the small gauntlet of already drunk guys, brandishing their bottles of wine and cans of Special Brew outside the main door of the social security office, and trying to avoid making eye contact with (or indeed look bemused at) the gaggle of young gents and ladies discussing the merits of rottweillers over pit bulls - I kid ye not, and this was the ladies debating - but the interview itself was a breeze (certainly not an interrogation in any way, shape or form), and the interviewer seemed to enjoy the experience, perhaps due to my wife's gracious air (if not mine).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks Khon_fused - thats pretty much how a friend described the offices too... cant wait!

the scouser · November 16, 2005

Rio,

Once your missus has her NINo, don't forget to get her previous contributions credited to her account.

Scouse.

mrbojangles · November 16, 2005

Guys,

do you have to wait until your Mrs is in employment, to get the NI number or is there some way of doing it before.

On another note, i suppose when she does start work, she won't have a P45 etc so will she just start on on emergency tax code?

the scouser · November 16, 2005

In order to have a NINo issued, the applicant needs to be either in employment or actively seeking such. If the latter, your missus may be expected to provide evidence of job rejections etc in order to prove that she is looking for work. Whilst the visa in her passport is sufficient by itself to indicate to a prospective employer that she is allowed to work, some will not accept it as prima facie proof.

When Mrs Scouse applied for her NINo she wasn't working, so we bent the rules by getting a couple of mates to write letters on their company headed notepaper refusing her employment.

When Mrs BoJ gets a job, she will be taxed at the emergency rate, so should get in touch with the Inland Revenue as soon as she starts work.

Cheers,

Scouse.

mrbojangles · November 16, 2005

Cheers Scouse,

Looks like a couple of my mates will be getting a phone call

oldoldgit!! · November 16, 2005

Wife had to get NI Number so that she could get child allowance, so no need for any type of letters french or Mates.

the scouser · November 16, 2005

Surely if Mrs Oldoldgit was claiming child benefit, it was too late in the day for Mates' letters?

Scouse.

gerrryuk · November 16, 2005

Guys,
do you have to wait until your Mrs is in employment, to get the NI number or is there some way of doing it before.

On another note, i suppose when she does start work, she won't have a P45 etc so will she just start on on emergency tax code?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

she will not have a National number until she starts employment, then her new employers will apply for one. BUT she will have a temporary number and it is very simple, first her initials then her date of birth then F for female. The NI no follows several months later and the contributions will automatically be transferred over. Her employer will also apply for a tax code, but until then she will use 489L from week one (like emergency code) but when she gets her proper number all the income tax will be refunded (unless she is earning an astronomical amount !!!). Of course if she started work in April it is unlikely she will get any refund.

rio666uk · November 17, 2005

Guys,
do you have to wait until your Mrs is in employment, to get the NI number or is there some way of doing it before.

On another note, i suppose when she does start work, she won't have a P45 etc so will she just start on on emergency tax code?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

she will not have a National number until she starts employment, then her new employers will apply for one. BUT she will have a temporary number and it is very simple, first her initials then her date of birth then F for female. The NI no follows several months later and the contributions will automatically be transferred over. Her employer will also apply for a tax code, but until then she will use 489L from week one (like emergency code) but when she gets her proper number all the income tax will be refunded (unless she is earning an astronomical amount !!!). Of course if she started work in April it is unlikely she will get any refund.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

gerryuk - can you expand on the points that you've made, Ive responded with my own experience.

"she will not have a National number until she starts employment, then her new employers will apply for one"

This has not been the case for my wife - shes been employed for 10 months.

"BUT she will have a temporary number and it is very simple, first her initials then her date of birth then F for female"

Since starting employment my mrs has recieved a P60 with her tax rebate - and a P45 when she left the agency she was working for to go full time for the Company, neither the P60 or P45 or any payslips display a NINO.

"The NI no follows several months later and the contributions will automatically be transferred over."

The advice on the DWP website is that she would need to apply for a NINO, phone call to Social Security, Short Interview and copies of relevant documents taken before she is issued with a NINO.

thanks

GU22 · November 17, 2005

she will not have a National number until she starts employment, then her new employers will apply for one. BUT she will have a temporary number and it is very simple, first her initials then her date of birth then F for female. The NI no follows several months later and the contributions will automatically be transferred over. Her employer will also apply for a tax code, but until then she will use 489L from week one (like emergency code) but when she gets her proper number all the income tax will be refunded (unless she is earning an astronomical amount !!!). Of course if she started work in April it is unlikely she will get any refund.[/b]

Not 100% correct, I'm afraid. Employers wont apply, the employee has to. Employers can allocate a temporary number, made up of TNddmmyyF if female or TNddmmyyM if male. TN being Temporary Number and ddmmyy being the date of birth. This is only a stop gap measure, and a proper, permanent number should be obtained as soon as possible.

One cannot apply for a National Insurance number until one has need of it. The most common reason being, of course, because one has started work or is actively seeking it. However, one also needs a NI number to claim Child Benefit or Tax Credits (these benefits are not on the list of public funds that Spouse visa holders are banned from claiming).

For a brief and informative guide, see

Thailand-UK - National Insurance.

Edited November 17, 2005 by GU22

mrbojangles · November 17, 2005

(these benefits are not on the list of public funds that Spouse visa holders are banned from claiming).

GU22, does that mean they can claim "job seekers" allowance?

the scouser · November 17, 2005

Job Seekers Allowance would not be considered to be a public fund providing sufficient contributions had been paid.

Scouise.

GU22 · November 17, 2005

From UK Visas-Public Funds (26/04/05)

The following is a list of those benefits that are classified, for immigration purposes, as Public Funds:
housing and homelessness assistance

attendance allowance

severe disablement allowance

carer's allowance (formerly invalid care allowance)

disability living allowance

income support

council tax benefit

housing benefit

child benefit

jobseeker's allowance

a social fund payment

child tax credit (formerly children's tax credit)

working tax credit (formerly working families tax credit)

So, it seems that the rules were amended in April of this year and so my earlier statement that "Child Benefit or Tax Credits (these benefits are not on the list of public funds that Spouse visa holders are banned from claiming)." is out of date and wrong. Apologies.

GU22 · November 17, 2005

Ok, I've been reading through http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/ho...c%20Funds-W.pdf (which takes ages to load.)

Tax credits. Although this is on the list, under inland revenue rules, any one who is in the UK as the spouse or unmarried partner of a UK resident is able to claim tax credits.

Jobseekers allowance. Cannot claim income based JSA, but can claim contribution based JSA.

Apologies, again, for any confusion.

caledonia · November 17, 2005

Jobseekers allowance. Cannot claim income based JSA, but can claim contribution based JSA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep and they can't claim Contribution based JSA unless they have an NI number that all their 'contributions' have been registered against - !!!

GU22 is 100% right on the fact that the employer will not apply for an NI number for an employee but normally they put quite a bit of pressure on folk to produce them so I am surprised that they haven't been getting on at your wife to get one.

The Inland Revenue did used to issue people with temp numbers using the very simple formula described above when it was taking ridiculous lenghts of times to get your own NI through but they did away with temporary numbers a few months ago - although they forgot to tell everyone cos even the DWP are still using them in emergency cases (or maybe I just managed to convinve them to!!)

You also def have to be doing it for work purposes rather than anything else as I remember many a discussion with NICO trying to get NI numbers for foreign wives applying for Perosnal pensions - they were having none of it because supposidly there are millions of NI numbers out there that are never used!! hmmmm. Anyway I'm surprised that someone was able to get an NI number for benefits since both Family benefit and Child Tax credit can be claimed in the Father's name!!

I have been along with a few folk to these interviews (work related - i'm not a serial wife or anything) and they are very straight forward - just takes a while to get an interview but the staff are so glad not to be dealing with the nutters sipping special brew already mentioned above that they are very friendly.

Anyway seems you have the jist that you should sort this out as soon as possibile and get onto the NICO- I hope the well oiled machine that is the Inland Revenue (cough cough) can get your wifes contributions paid over into her NI when it is set up.

Just a wee pointer - Child Benefit has been classed as state assistance in terms of visa applications for at least the last two years because I clearly remember choking on my cornflakes noticing it on the IND website as soon as we were looking at our situation. Don't even get me started on how ridiculous this is - bit silly that someone on marriage number 2 can't claim family benefit (the ONLY 'state assistance' EVERY British family is entitled to) for their kids from the first marriage or risk an eagle eyes ECO noticing this. It is non means tested for a reason - even PM Blair gets it, so how on earth can this be classed as being reliant on state assistance!! Ofcourse the fact that it is normally women that claim I am sure has nothing to do with it, god forbid we would want to marry a foreigner after already having a family in the UK! I'm sure this little issue does not impact many guys with kids already in the UK as their ex-partners will be the claimants - a point not wasted on me! Anyway no doubt you are all rolling your eyes at this point - women and their feminist rants eh!!lol!!!

Just as well I have no kids!!!

Edited November 17, 2005 by caledonia

caledonia · November 17, 2005

From UK Visas-Public Funds (26/04/05)
The following is a list of those benefits that are classified, for immigration purposes, as Public Funds:
housing and homelessness assistance

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry didn't notice this before - now that little entry is interesting and I haven't noticed it before.

Can we assume that this means Local Authority Hosuing? It certainly does in terms of those with no recourse to public funds. Having just had the Home Office's finest (ECO's) give us training on this at work and making it very clear that Local Authority Housing is not allowed for those with no recourse to public funds how does this implicate for those living in Local Authority Housing who want to bring their foreign wife/husband home. There are certainly people in Council houses that get spousal visas for their foreign partners hmmmmm!!

Now I am confused!!!

GU22 · November 18, 2005

On the child benefit issue, when my wife and her daughter arrived I asked about this, and was told by the by the CHB people that my wife couldn't claim, but that I could, even though the child was Thai and not my natural daughter. The only thing they seemed concerned with was that I was solely responsible financially for her. The Immigration Directorate Instructions actually say this.

On the housing issue, I know many people living in social housing who have successfully applied for visas for their partners. I also know people living on state benefits who have done the same. The rule appears to be applied thus; if the sponsor is claiming public funds this doesn't matter, as long as they do not need to claim additional public funds.

rio666uk · December 21, 2005

Just to update this topic - if you are going to be doing this in the future

Me n the Mrs went for our NI Interview yesterday at our local Work & Pensions Dept Offices.

Interview was really simple - about 30 mins in all - think this was down to having the right documents. I was allowed into the interview room to help my wife, if she needed it, but i shut up and let her do as much as she could.

Docs taken: (* denotes what they actually took as evidence in the interview)

Her Passport*

Our Marriage Cert (thai only - so they werent too interested)

Her Payslips from current and previous employer

Her P45

Her Contract of Employment*

Coucil Tax Statements (addressed to both of us)*

so thats it - all done - just wait now for it to turn up in the post

Rinrada · December 21, 2005

Did the same thing a couple of years ago at our local Work & Pensions Dept Office in Edmonton North London (wot a dump)and as you said interview very simple (and interviewer very polite.)

Got KWs N.I number about 3 weeks later.

The office has sinced been demolished.....

mrbojangles · August 7, 2006

Hi guys, just resurrecting an old post, with much information here already, rather than starting again.

I phoned my local Jobcenter Plus office today, asking for how to go about getting the NI number for MrsBoJ. As we know, they need evidence of her actively seeking or already in a job etc.

Now the kind young lady said she would send a letter, in it confiming to any potential employee that Mrs BoJ doesn't need an NI to start work. That should cut out any issues with employees (especially small businesses) who aren't in the know etc.

But will this letter also act as an "official" correspondence, that she can use when she applies for ILR next year?

vinny · August 7, 2006

See also [2006] EWCA Civ 882, paragraph 39:

The Secretary of State has made clear that a national insurance number can be applied for, and will be allocated, irrespective of any intention to work and without any conflict with a visa condition prohibiting a person from working in this country. The use of a national insurance number has a non-work-related function in the control of fraud in benefit claims. That view is supported by the contents of an internal departmental document, referred to as the "SNAP [secure Number Allocation Procedure] Code", which contains guidance to officials on the operation of the relevant administrative arrangements. Thus, it was open to Mrs Wilson to apply for a national insurance number (as she eventually did) without prejudicing her immigration status or her application for leave to remain. The advice to the contrary that she received from her solicitors was in practice mistaken. It is true that the use of a national insurance number for this purpose may give rise to misunderstanding, as it did with Mrs Wilson's solicitors, and that the issue of a national insurance number could even encourage people to take work in breach of their visa conditions, but I do not think that this can be regarded as creating any real unfairness.

the scouser · August 7, 2006

But will this letter also act as an "official" correspondence, that she can use when she applies for ILR next year?

Yes, providing your wife's name and address are written on the letter itself and not just on the envelope.

Cheers,

Scouse.

Edit: the letter should be dated, too.

mrbojangles · August 9, 2006

But will this letter also act as an "official" correspondence, that she can use when she applies for ILR next year?

Yes, providing your wife's name and address are written on the letter itself and not just on the envelope.

Cheers,

Scouse.

Edit: the letter should be dated, too.

cheers buddy

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