Bisexual Vs Gay

[thaibebop]

We've got an employee at our local supermarket that's been going through the change for the past couple of years. Unfortunately she ain't no katoey - more like a brickie with a badly made wig

Yeah, it's okay if they make it convincing, but kinda sad when they don't.

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't think Kathoeys are bisexual at all... they are almost universally interested in *straight* men.

"Steven"

[thaibebop]

I don't think Kathoeys are bisexual at all... they are almost universally interested in *straight* men.

"Steven"

Okay, that needs some more explanation. I think you and I might agree here, but a Kathoey being, genetically speaking, a man going after a straight man.... ...hold on I am thinking this though.....It's gay sex, but both are straight (?) becuase one is looking for straight men and the other is attracted to women, which is what the kathoey looks like. I am following you?

Wow, I never thought about like that. A whole new dimension.

Okay, so I think we can agree that sex (physical,gay or straight) is not the defining factor of a persons sexuality, yes? I think we can also agree that a persons sexuality is more like a spectrum with gay and straight being the extremes, right?

So, then how does one define their sexuality? It makes me think that maybe it's all personal and gay and straight don't really exist, they are just something we made up in an attemp to box things into a corner like everything else. There's some food for thought, eh?

[englishoak]

[thaibebop]

Well, am I on to something here or not? Come on, what do you think?

[Guest endure]

Katoeys are people who are born with male genitalia who believe that they should be women. After they've had all the treatment necessary they then are women, both mentally and physically. They're not men, they're not gay. They're straight women and thus fancy straight men. Gay men (I stand to be corrected here by anyone who does) don't fancy katoeys because katoeys are women and gay men fancy men. The men they fancy may be effeminate but they're men, not women. Clear?

Of course this all unravels when you start to consider straight Thai men who are quite willing to indulge in a bit of same sex hanky panky if they feel the urge. But as we know, Thai men don't 'think too much'. They just go with the flow and don't worry about what's gay and what's straight - just what feels nice

[thaibebop]

Katoeys are people who are born with male genitalia who believe that they should be women. After they've had all the treatment necessary they then are women, both mentally and physically. They're not men, they're not gay. They're straight women and thus fancy straight men. Gay men (I stand to be corrected here by anyone who does) don't fancy katoeys because katoeys are women and gay men fancy men. The men they fancy may be effeminate but they're men, not women. Clear?

Of course this all unravels when you start to consider straight Thai men who are quite willing to indulge in a bit of same sex hanky panky if they feel the urge. But as we know, Thai men don't 'think too much'. They just go with the flow and don't worry about what's gay and what's straight - just what feels nice

That's pretty much what I said, however, you aren't considering before the opp. What is the relationship then? Also, I don't think for every Kathoey opperstion is the goal, what about them?

[Guest endure]

It doesn't matter whether they've had the op or not. In their heads they're women. You're getting too tangled up in the bits and bobs bebop. Sexuality lives in your head not in your pants.

[PeaceBlondie]

The pre-op, cross-dressing katoeys confuse me. Or they turn me off. I finally took one home one night - what a disappointment! I won't give the gory details. Point is, they try their hardest to be a woman female girl lady, but they're not one until they get all the operations.

But there are a whole lot of gay men and straight men and bisexual men who get all turned on about a male wearing women's clothes. I think a gay man who dates a pre-op katoey is a case of two gay men doing gay things.

[Guest endure]

But there are a whole lot of gay men and straight men and bisexual men who get all turned on about a male wearing women's clothes. I think a gay man who dates a pre-op katoey is a case of two gay men doing gay things.

Sorry, going to have to disagree there. A pre-op katoey isn't a gay man, he's a woman in a man's body. If he were a gay man he wouldn't be waiting to have his bits sliced off.

[toptuan]

IMHO this whole discussion is pathetic. Everyone is trying to put "round" Thai society into "square" Western pidgeon holes. A male Thai's sexuality is not defined by his behavior nor by his thinking--from post-op lady-boys to the most feared Muay Thai fighter*.

The majority of you guys in here have mentally assented to that point at one time or another on this forum, but your heart's not in it--you keep trying to analyze it to death. It's hard to shake free of cultural entanglements when trying to define another culture's behavior (not that any of us will EVER make a 100% mental leap!).

Granted, if you have to quickly analyze what he/she is after your first 10-minute Silom bar conversation, so you can decide whether or not to whisk 'em off to Shag Hotel, then you deserve to be surprised. But people, and especially Thai society defy that quick analysis.

For every pidgeon hole you define, there'll be a half-dozen variations on both sides of it. Give it up. You'll go nuts. Just take each person on their own individual grounds as the Thai do. To do that, it will take time to get to know them.

If I was a thought-Nazi, I'd close this thread. But alas, the Voltaire in me graciously gives my blessing to you nit-pickers who wanna keep this hackneyed thread alive! **

______________________________________________________________________________

*Bad, bad example of the "macho" extreme. Remember the Beautiful Boxer? It just drives home my point! I tried to think of the extreme "macho example", but for every category I thought of, I immediately remembered one or two inviduals in the that category that defied the stereotype: from past Prime Ministers right on down the socio-political-academic-economic ladder.

**Just a 'touch" of flame to conflagarate the controversy...

[Guest endure]

IMHO this whole discussion is pathetic. Everyone is trying to put "round" Thai society into "square" Western pidgeon holes. A male Thai's sexuality is not defined by his behavior nor by his thinking--from post-op lady-boys to the most feared Muay Thai fighter*.

A post op ladyboy isn't male.

[thaibebop]

It doesn't matter whether they've had the op or not. In their heads they're women. You're getting too tangled up in the bits and bobs bebop. Sexuality lives in your head not in your pants.

That what I said a few posts back, Endure. I am not getting caught up in anything. I thinking about it and inviting comment just for the fun of it. I believe there is no such thing as gay or straight.

Oh yes, and Toptuan, it's just a conversion. Lighten up!

Edited February 19, 2006 by thaibebop

[PeaceBlondie]

Mea cuplpa; I'm wrong, and I was thinking like a Westerner. A Thai ladyboy, pre-op, is a female inside her head. Please forgive me for saying that when (s)he has sex with another person with male genitalia, they're both having gay sex. There must be a vag.i.na in there somewhere, but it's only inside the ladyboy's imagination.

To be more clear, we should delineate between what's going inside their brains, and what sex organs they're using.

[toptuan]

Oh yes, and Toptuan, it's just a conversion . Lighten up!

Who was converted Boppy? Not me!

[thaibebop]

Oh yes, and Toptuan, it's just a conversion . Lighten up!

Who was converted Boppy? Not me!

Oops! Misspell.

[toptuan]

Oops! Misspell.

Methinks more of a Freudian slip!

[jdinasia]

Mea cuplpa; I'm wrong, and I was thinking like a Westerner. A Thai ladyboy, pre-op, is a female inside her head. Please forgive me for saying that when (s)he has sex with another person with male genitalia, they're both having gay sex. There must be a vag.i.na in there somewhere, but it's only inside the ladyboy's imagination.

To be more clear, we should delineate between what's going inside their brains, and what sex organs they're using.

OK ... not that i deserve 1 baht's worth of input here but it's my 2cents anyways.

1) Not all Kathoey are planning on having an operation. Many like their genitals.

2) The term Kathoey is still used to refer to all gay men that are even remotely femme.

Even in the West there are differences ... TG's TV's TS's etc etc ... and nobody gets it right there .... how can you get it right here?

[thaibebop]

Oops! Misspell.

Methinks more of a Freudian slip!

How so? Who is converting?

[PeaceBlondie]

jdinasia, I agree with both of your cent's worth. I once asked my longterm Thai b/f if there was another word for 'katoey' that just meant gay but not overly femme, and his answer was not clear. I'm sure I've heard, time and again for three years, the term katoey used to refer to anybody who was merely gay. My student who died was a bit femme, but not extreme, and even the teachers referred to him as "her" sometimes.

Most of the dress-wearing katoeys I've met were cabaret dancers, and I'm not sure they want to get the complete, genital operation.

Oops, maybe we're off topic. In our Western cultures, bisexuality is almost a new concept publically. I remember Newsweeek magazine in the States having a splashy cover article about it in the early 1990's, as if it were the latest fad that had never before been discussed in public. Yet, when I came out to my 14 year old twin girls, they replied, "Oh, all our friends are bisexual." Maybe that's just common among potheads in west Houston.

But if Thais measure sexual preference or sexual orientation by what's inside their brains, rather than what they do with their genitals, maybe lots of 'straight' Thais don't consider it bisexual to fool around with the same gender. Most or many macho Mexican males would agree.

[Guest endure]

jdinasia, I agree with both of your cent's worth. I once asked my longterm Thai b/f if there was another word for 'katoey' that just meant gay but not overly femme, and his answer was not clear. I'm sure I've heard, time and again for three years, the term katoey used to refer to anybody who was merely gay. My student who died was a bit femme, but not extreme, and even the teachers referred to him as "her" sometimes.

Most of the dress-wearing katoeys I've met were cabaret dancers, and I'm not sure they want to get the complete, genital operation.

I have a TV programme on tape that was made at least 10 years ago and broadcast in the UK called 'Ladyboys'. It was quite sensationalised 'Young Thai men go to work in Pattaya as prostitutes blah blah blah' but part of it was interviews with the dancers at Alcazar in Pattaya. To a man(?) they were all saving for the operation. They were all looking for straight boyfriends too. In between all the drama it was quite informative. I must watch it again

[Hollywood]

I'm around allot of the 18-30 year old generation and they don't really put a label on it, some of them just have sex, male or female. I quess they have been exposed to so much gayness on TV, movies and with sports figures that it is becoming more and more acceptable. Hooray!

[ChrisP]

Ok, let's hope my bf never reads this... BUT..

He's a "pretty-boy" type.. who works in the Freeman Dance Center Cabaret Show (in LOS "Cabaret" usually means some kind of LipSynch show with "LadyBoys" as the Female Impersonators - what is known as a Drag Show in the West."

He used to be a male "boy-dancer" there and now does Drag instead - usually Whitney Houston, btw!. He is considered by everyone who works there to be a "LadyBoy".... but he has NO desire to have any kind of operation. He's happy being a male. He says he is only a LadyBoy for his work...

However, I know he is somewhat proud of his work, and "look", 'coz he will happily walk with me in Silom to eat, chat with friends, and get a cab home with me etc with his feminine make-up on, and male clothes btw (T-shirt and jeans). Oh, and his Mum refers to him as "she" now btw!

I now know all the performers there well.. and it's also instructive to note the many variations of 'LadyBoy" Drag Queens who perform there... ones from Full-PostOps to no-ops or hormones at all.

ChrisP

Btw, Funny to see last week they were having an Amateur "Lip Sing" contest at Freeman Dance Club. (Well, I guess it DOES make sense..!)