Owner Wants To Reposess, I Want Money Back!

[womble]

Let me explain...........

I leased a piece of land for 20 years. I paid key money of several million when contract was signed and land taken over. I also have to pay 500,000 baht per year rent.

Now the land originally was 5 rai and I had investors who were to pay for construction. Then a problem arose. The neighbours annexed a piece of land (around 350sqm). On the opposite side tessaban wanted to put some drainage in, so lost another 200sqm.

So now the land is smaller and there is a dispute with the neighbours (who are leasing) which is going to court. This all took two years to resolve and several court appearances (abitration, not sure). I'm pretty sure my landlord did a deal with the neighbours as the landlord let it slip that they are allowing them to annex the land providing it is returned to them in 30 years. Surely they have just leased out land that is mine? They were supposed to be seeking damages for me!!!

In the meantime I lost my investors, had a couple of other fall through because of the land dispute (who in there right mind invests in land under dispute until it is sorted.

Anyway I havn't paid rent for a couple of years as refused to whilst the court case was on. Now the landlord says they are taking the land back due to non payment.

Can anyone advise me if they can take it back and keep $ i have paid so far.

The landlord is rich so they defo have the $. I think they have a further deal with neighbours to lease to them once they re-posess from me.

What can I do? Anyone have a lawyer they recommend.

This has wasted several years of my life and cost me a lot of $.............

Will I have to go through courts or is there an easier way. Also how can I check up on the court case my landlord was supposed to be fighting on my behalf. Is it recorded anywhere. If the agreed to let the neighbours annex the land surely it puts me in strong position.

any advise greatfully recieved.

[InterestedObserver]

What does your lease say about termination? If you have a valid lease registered on the back of the owner's Chanote, I don't see how the same land can be leased again.

[simon43]

See above comment. Was your land lease registered at the Amphur, taxes paid and your name registered as leasee on the back of the Chanote, (all of which are required by law)?

If not, I think you might not have a strong case.

Simon

[ludditeman]

Registered lease valid for above 3 years up to a maximum of 30 years (registered at land office on back of chanote)

Unregistered lease valid for a maximum of 3 years

So as others have said, which lease do you have?

If unregistered, they can get you to leave after 3 years with no comeback from you.

Edited November 5, 2011 by ludditeman

[womble]

It is not registered, it was a substantial amount of money which was to be paid by investor, but the investor wouldn't release any extra funds until the land dispute was sorted.

The three years comes to an end very soon, Jan 1st, in a couple of months.

The agreement with landlord was to pay half each.

Should I quickly go and register before 3 years is up?

Trouble is I know landlord will not go to register unless I pay all the rent.

[ludditeman]

I think you have been conned.

They will claim the key money was for the 3 years, and whatever you do they will keep the money and reclaim the land.

The lease should have been registered before you handed over the money, or simultaneously.

But that is only my opinion, get some legal advice, but don't throw too much extra money away.

Chances are a new lease has already been agreed with your rivals.

Edited November 5, 2011 by ludditeman

[InterestedObserver]

It is not registered,......

You don't have a legal leg to stand on. The law is very clear on this point, all immovable property leases of more than three years must be registered with the local land office to be enforceable. See Section 538 of the Civil and Commercial Code.

[womble]

I have contracts which clearly state the length of the lease (20 years), the contract also states that if eigher party cannot fullfill the terms of the lease then the contract is to be terminated and all money returned.

The landlord has failed to provide me with a piece of land of the agreed size, infact it seems they have leased part of the land twice. Perhaps even a criminal offense?

What should I do if they change the locks on the gates and prevent me having access to my own land before the three years is up?

I guess it's time to lawyer up. Which will cost me more money!

[womble]

It is not registered,......

You don't have a legal leg to stand on. The law is very clear on this point, all immovable property leases of more than three years must be registered with the local land office to be enforceable. See Section 538 of the Civil and Commercial Code.

yes but the three years is not up, so surely I can get back the key money and rent paid so far. The contract is surely ok for the first three years?

[ludditeman]

Why didn't you and he register the lease, when you made the contract, as is required by Thai law?

He knows the law even if you didn't, so seems like his motives were suspect from day 1.

[InterestedObserver]

It is not registered,......

You don't have a legal leg to stand on. The law is very clear on this point, all immovable property leases of more than three years must be registered with the local land office to be enforceable. See Section 538 of the Civil and Commercial Code.

yes but the three years is not up, so surely I can get back the key money and rent paid so far. The contract is surely ok for the first three years?

You have recourse for three years only, after that the lease is not enforceable.

[womble]

Why didn't you and he register the lease, when you made the contract, as is required by Thai law?

He knows the law even if you didn't, so seems like his motives were suspect from day 1.

I didn't have the $ and investor wouldn't pay due to the dispute.

It's required by law but is my contract still good till three years is up? I.e. Jan 1st? If it is ok till then does issue need to be resolved by then or do I need to get the legal ball rolling before then.

[InterestedObserver]

Why didn't you and he register the lease, when you made the contract, as is required by Thai law?

He knows the law even if you didn't, so seems like his motives were suspect from day 1.

I didn't have the $ and investor wouldn't pay due to the dispute.

It's required by law but is my contract still good till three years is up? I.e. Jan 1st? If it is ok till then does issue need to be resolved by then or do I need to get the legal ball rolling before then.

You need to immediately get a lawyer and file/sue the landowner before the three years is up. Since you haven't paid rent for a couple of years what's the point, unless you can prove the landowner defrauded you.

[stgrhe]

Why didn't you and he register the lease, when you made the contract, as is required by Thai law?

He knows the law even if you didn't, so seems like his motives were suspect from day 1.

I didn't have the $ and investor wouldn't pay due to the dispute.

It's required by law but is my contract still good till three years is up? I.e. Jan 1st? If it is ok till then does issue need to be resolved by then or do I need to get the legal ball rolling before then.

You need to immediately get a lawyer and file/sue the landowner before the three years is up. Since you haven't paid rent for a couple of years what's the point, unless you can prove the landowner defrauded you.

I agree with IO. Should the OP decide to sue the landowner the case will be determined by the Civil & Commercial Code Law and not the criminal law. This is simply a business transaction that has turned sour. It appear to me that both parties are in the fault so if I was the OP I'd try to settle with the landowner.

[moe666]

You didn't pay the monthly rent you are in default. It doesn't matter that it was in court. It appears you are in over your head.

[Khun Jean]

When i read the OP i thought 'another Samui "investment" going sour'.

So you paid 'several million' keymoney, and agreed upon 500.000 per year rent of which you did not pay several years. Is several 2 or 3?

Keymoney is just that, don't expect it back. 3 years almost finished and of those several not paid.

And then you want to do what again?

Good luck, you never know how much that will cost. I would only use a lawyer and go to court on a no cure no pay basis.

My advice, cut your losses, learn from it.

Other option, pay more money, have more headaches, waste more time.

[simon43]

Hopefully you can learn from this incident:

- Key money should be only paid on operating businesses - it's effectively buying the goodwill/reputation of the business. You should not pay key money on a plot of land.

- 3 year rental agreements are often preferred by landlords because they do not have to be registered at the land office, thus minimising any security of tenure that you might have. It also means that the landlord does not have to pay any land lease registration tax and he can kick you off the land/business or increase the rent after that 3 year period.

- It is not wise to lease any land or business where there is an ongoing dispute.

Simon

[quiksilva]

The fact that a lease with a term in excess of 36 months is not registered is just another problem you are facing (it will only be enforceable for the first 3 years, but the fact that you are in breach of contract for non-payment of rent essentially makes your contract (regardless of its length) void.

I'd be very surprised if it didnt after all this is the most important of all your covenants.

Good luck, but it seems that the landlord will get the better of you.

A lesson to everyone, non-payment of rent is not a very good solution to turn to in case of dispute.