Moving To Bkk From Uk

[Expat2B]

I have been pondering a move to Thailand for some time now for many reasons mainly the crap weather, poor quality of life, high taxes and miserable people here in the UK. Along the way I have acquired a Thai GF (soon to be fiance) who is highly qualified and working in a good professional job. She does however come from a conservative family, who are not at all happy at the amount of time we are spending together every 6 weeks to 2 months when I am in Thailand, and when I am there find myself constantly watching the clock to ensure she is back home "on time" each evening.

Since we have been together for some time, we are now keen to take the next step and get engaged and subsequently married. The big problem for me however is job/income uncertainty here in the UK (if we had to live here) and complete job/income uncertainty there if I take a gamble and just move to Thailand on spec.

In the Uk I have a small consulting business which brings in a very good income (£100k + right now), I am well educated to MBA level and have good all round business skills (and extensive experience in management and business improvement consulting with large companies and governmental bodies). However I also have fairly expensive tastes so have been spending a large amount/all of my earnings for as a long as I can remember (like many others I guess). I am in my mid 30's if this is of any relevance.

After returning to the UK earlier this week I am completely fed up and find it difficult to motivate myself workwise and I really just want to throw in the towe here and move, but I am sensible enough (and have done enough research) to know that this will be far from easy, especially finding something to bring in an income I would consider decent.

I sold up my property a few months ago (mainly as part of the final split from my ex here). Since I think that property values are due for a sharp fall in the UK, I havent bought anything new and have over £100k in the bank which rises on a monthly basis (quite significantly) from my contract income (which could end any day). I also have a further £50k available which covers my outstanding MBA loan (over 7 years at a very low rate of interest). I would be wary of tapping into this fund unless I could get a much better rate of return than the 5% interest I am currently paying (and enough extra to balance the currency risk).

So enough background about me, basically I am looking for advice on how/if it is possible to enjoy a very good lifestyle in LOS without being relocated there as an employee of a large foreign company. It seems there are 2 routes to finding a good job/income in Thailand, 1) local networking 2) buying a business. How realistic is it to take either of these routes and find something that will yield (over the longer term) at least 150k baht per month? Should I just give up on this goal now and try my luck in China/HK/SIN? How easy is it to find work in these regions also (I understand that the economy in SIN especially is having difficulties). I also seem to find that businesses for sale via brokers tend not to be particularly appealing (no offence intended to those who run brokerages) since I assume that the best opportunities tend to come from networking and word of mouth contact (as in any other part of the world), am I a million miles away here?

So I guess I am asking in a very long winded way, what are my realistic chances of being able to earn a reasonable income within a 12 month period of just moving to BKK? I have assumed that a non-imm B visa would be fairly straightforward to get from a consulate here based on cash for investment available and a letter from my own UK company.

[singa-traz]

Singapore should be better in 2004 ... provided Iran is not invaded :-) or Singapore hit by SARS

For the 150K++ THB, either:

- you are a real expat

- you own a business

- or you do consulting ... well, you own the business !

So, it's all about networking ... and why not start with the family (who knows ?)

As for the reason for the move, think about it ... and think about it:

- crap wether: check the rainy season

- poor quality of life ... define what is quality of life ...

- high taxes ... only 37% here ...

- miserable people ... check this forum ! ... just kidding guys ...

Good Luck !

[davidm]

Stay where you are, making good money. Visit Thailand at will for fun/social visits. Any other path will lead to disaster sooner or later, especially based on what you have revealed so far. This probably sounds harsh, but it's based on nearly 20 years over here, hearing countless horror stories that started in a similar vein to yours.

[mazo]

i to am thinking about the move to thailand full time i have about 120,000 pounds saved to start a small business but every body i talk to about it tells me not to but no one can tell me why ? is thailand that bad what are the horror stories what are the pit falls can any one make it clear what to look out for it looks to me that there are a lot of expats living in thailand that are veray happy so how come these make it and otheres dont ? life is a risk i could start a business in in england and lose it all i know its not going to be easy in thailand but pepole do do it and live ok from what i can make out i only now of a few pepole who have lost and thay came and opend a beer bar which is not a good move at all so why is thailand that bad

chears mazo

[Khun ?]

EX2B

Why would you give up 100G Lbs a year. You are doing great and have good savings and in a few more years you may be able to put yourself in a situation where money will not be dictating your life for many years to come. You mention you already have your savings working for you the same as a part time job, so why not get it to work for you to produce enough to be your full time job. You can then work as you wish. It sounds like you have done better than most of us so far

so no doubt you will survive which ever way you go.

Mazo

Just a little insight. I loaned out about 120G LBS, which in 3 1/2 years I would double my money. Of course this was to a couple honest Farang companies in Thailand (if there is such thing). Needless to say after 5 years and so far me only getting just over half my money back it has been nothing but lies and hassles. What you think may work or be a good deal most likely will not go as planned. 120G lbs is not that much over a long peroid of time. If you can afford to start over in 5 or 10 years again go for it. Then again people that can save this amount of money must have done something right. Without 700 or 800Lbs coming in a month on some type of pension I do not think thailand would be the best place to

try to make money from a small business. Sunbelt or Indo Siam on this board would be the best ones to speak to. Several people on this board have small businesses so maybe they may give you a bit of info on how much time you will have to put in to make a few bucks after using alot of your savings. I would advise where ever you made the money to save stay with it. Good Luck anyways!!

[Expat2B]

DavidM and Khun

Yea thanks for the feedback, I am not naive enough not to know the pitfalls here, but I think there are some advantages to being outside of the Uk for a little while too.

These include: -

No exposure to the (likely) falling property market

No kidding yourself that you have a secure job

Being forced to think harder about things which are of real value (rather than blow wads of money on crap as I do now)

Not being in the UK (an environment which I am beginning to hate with a passion)

I am not interested in some of the more obvious farang temptations, I have a gf from a good family with a good job (unfortunately not good enough to support me too ) to whom I am completely loyal (and intend to remain so). We want to get married and have a family, despite the fact that she has been educated in the west as well as in Thailand, I really feel she will be happier there (as would I with anything like a decent income), since she is close to her family and I am not so close to mine. I am not at all comfortable with starting married life however without a clear ability to support my wife and any future family.

The fallback position is finding work in the broader region perhaps as far away as Dubai. Given that she is at a quite early stage of her career I feel it could be damaging for her to leave even if this might seem the simplest option. also because of what she does working in the Uk would be likely to involve extensive and expensive retrainng.

I am currently spending the best part of £30k a year on airfares, accommodation etc for 1 visit every 2 months (I could cut this down, but I have admittedly expensive tastes), so how much will I really lose?

All this would be less relevant perhaps if I knew that in the long term I would carry on earning at the same rate (in the UK), I may do but I dont know, and there is little satisfaction in doing something that you really do not enjoy just for the money. I am not an idiot I paid a lot of (my own) money to get an expensive business education, so am not in a burning hurry to buy myself a bar, restaurant or any other crap business that someone is trying to unload. I have a strong desire to truly run a proper business (because I am good at that) rather than carry on in the quasi-employed state I am currently in.

I might perhaps be prepared to accept less pay for a year or so, so that i could retain skills whilst outside the Uk which would make it easier to return, however in my experience it is difficult to find even this type of opportunity. I really cannot believe that the choices come down to teaching english or buying a bar etc.

[pnustedt]

You say you have a consultancy business - could you not "dip your toe in the water" and attract a project or two in Thailand or the region? I think that you would be foolhardy to throw up your currant GBP100K income just when you are likely to need it most - i.e. you are going to get married and considering starting a family.

I am in HK and it is quite easy for a Brit to do business here - with new openings to the mainland creating further opportunities. The property market appears to have bottomed out. It is also very accessible to Bkk which, for me,is a major attraction. (Oh, and I forgot to mention - low taxes).

Don't even think about teaching English or buying a bar!

[Khun ?]

Dubia has been over ran by other third world countries who price each other out of

a half way decent wage. Many companies have relocted their main offices to UAE

from other middle east countries with the present climate in the region. Many multi national companies to look at and the winters are decent but the summer days are not to nice.

I do not know much about the bar and tourist industry other than there is plenty of mom and pop shops squeaking by from year to year. I would say not worth the time other than for someone who already has a pension and needs something to do.

I do not see putting the Misses first being of any career benefit to you now or later. Take care of work and everything else will be much easier and will fall in place. Earning what you do and be able to take time off that you indicated, sounds like you have the best of both worlds already. If your priority is saving money easy to see what you need to do. If you cannot save more in a place you hate,

then you most likely will you not do better in a place you like. Each time I get a deposit in the bank the smile gets a bit bigger knowing that puts me a bit closer to real freedom. Just because Thailand seems better than home now does not mean it will in a couple years after the move. It seems to me that you are being your own worst enmy. You seem to be finding excuses, to not like doing good at what you are doing. I guess after the holidays most of us look at things different

for a little while. Do not kid yourself on thinking you can just start over every time you get a whim. Maybe try getting a partner at home and expand to somewhere else if possible. You might have the 7 year itch, it will pass in a couple years.

Good Luck

[Indo-Siam]

E-2-B -

With no background as an entrepreneur, I launched my own business here in Bangkok back 21 months ago. I did just about everything wrong. Many painful lessons learned. 'Ate up most of my life's savings. But - some serendipity occurred, and I now have a sustaining business going, with steadily growing income. And I see Thailand poised right now for at least 2-3 years of tremendous national business success. For business, Thailand is "the right place, at the right time."

I personally would never buy a business in Thailand unless I had lived next to it or worked in it for a couple of years.

My advice (based on lessons learned):

1. Do not try to pursue anything here until AFTER you have spent some time on the ground here, IN A BUSINESS FRAME OF MIND.

2. Try to delay launching a business here until you have some customers "pre sold" on whatever you will deliver.

3. Satisfying existing unfulfilled demand is much easier here than creating new demand, and then filling it. It is a long, slow process to introduce new things here and try to builddemand.

4. You have four general alternatives: a) sell to Thais (including Thai government); sell to multinationals - foreign-run interests inside Thailand; c) sell Thai products overseas via export trading; 4) provide services to clients outside Thailand who want tasks accomplished for them inside Thailand.

(I initially tried a and b, and failed miserably. I then tried c - and again failed. I then tried d, and that is where I became successful. But - many, many people do run successful export businesses here.)

5. Thailand imposes a bunch of burdens on foreigners wanting to launch businesses here. But - most everyone gets treated pretty much the same, so it is a "level paying field" between foreigners. As long as you can start earning revenue pretty early after launch, you should be OK. All Thai requirements are trivial for established businesses - you will almost automatically satisfy all requirements once you get up and running. They are just tough an initial start-up.

6. Thailand is a strange place in that things do not "move in straight lines" here. All my life, I was trained to select an objective, make a plan to reach that objective, then set out and remain focussed on that objective. Don't let anything distract you or pull you away from your objective. That approach failed me miserably. Here - everything "moves in circles". You still set an inirtial objective, and set out for it. But you never get there. Instead, the flow of events starts pulling you in some new direction. Don't fight it - just pick a new objective out in the direction you are being pulled. And then continue adjusting to new directions. A guy sets out to run a diving instruction school, and ends up with a successful business overhauling boat engines. Go with it.

7. Typical Thai workers have very low ability to multi-task, and low "bandwidth" for adapting to rapidly changing situations. They get paid poorly, so they generally care little about whether anything gets accomplished - and they move v-e-r-y slowly. Establishing a "go-go" work culture here is very difficult. Thai workers tend to accept "no" for an answer way too easily - they do not readily look for ways to go around obstacles, or find an alternate solution to a problem. They view all such effort as being "the bosses problem". There is little capability here to ake a message to Garcia.

8. Thailand is the best place for networking that I have ever experienced. Something about this place lowers people's inhibitions, and brings out the untested ideas and unrealized dreams of many. Westerners share their ideas here more readily than usual. The hard part is that very few people here are serious - once they leave, their "Bangkok" ideas fade back into fantasyland. So - a key ability here is to be able to identify the few real gems among the phonies.

9. It is fairly hard to find reliable people here. I generally dismiss 90% of all westerners I meet here as fundamentally unreliable. Building up a networking base of reliable people here is critical.

10. It is hard to establish a new corporate identity here. No one can become your customer until they know you exist, and how to find you. For the longest time, it seems like no one knows or cares about you. Then - at about the 18 month point in business - something magical happens. Maybe it is just the "network effect" - or the achievement of critical mass. Or - folks dismiss anyone who hasn't been around for at least that long. But - whatever the reason - at almost precisely the 18 month point, business began to come raining down on us, and has never stopped. Its downright eerie. So - you have to have the staying power to reach the 18-24 month point - and if you can survive that long, success and growth suddenly becomes much easier.

11. Being a first-time entrepreneur is scary. The thing I most remember is when the realization hit me - everyday, money was flowing out of my company account, paying expenses. Outflow of money is continual and spontaneous, and occurs no matter what you are doing. But - income only came in when you went out and fought for it. Any day that you are not successfully bringing in money is one day closer to doom. So - you have to live and breathe turning over business, and converting deliverables into cash.

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam Group

[email protected]

[Sunbelt Asia]

since I assume that the best opportunities tend to come from networking and word of mouth contact (as in any other part of the world), am I a million miles away here?

Thank you for asking the question. I would love to explain.

Sorry but I don't know one company worth its salt, would ever try to sell it themselves by networking.

The Seller would simply distroy their business. The poor buyer would most likely be buying a business that would be a shadow of its former self. The reason is, the fear of the unknown by the employees and customers. They would leave before the new buyer was announced because the confidentiality was violated. Business is a dog eat dog World and competitors take no prisoners. Talk about a blood bath if the word got out. In networking, people talk. They have to in order to have networking work.

I can assure you, Sunbelt Asia gets the best businesses. Our sellers make sure we know confidentiality. If you have a open mind, review our listings. It doesn't cost you anything. I guarantee in 5 years of networking you won't hear any better opportunities with networking than we get in one single week. Do your due diligence with our listings and you'll be impressed. We have mfgs, computer companies. Many many businesses other than bars or restaurants. Not to say restaurants are bad either, the one I owned, made 280K net last month. I have a wife who is an excellent mgr. but every type of business is not for everyone. You have to own a business that you enjoy.

As for a person selling their business. its an art to transferring a business, we are the professionals with over 16,000 registered buyers in Thailand and over 500,000 potential buyers in the World through our contacts.

To sum it up it ...Why would a buyer go thru a network of 50 or 100 friends when they can get worldwide exposure with confidentiality?

No one ever finds out about a business with our firm until they sign a strongly worded confidentiality agreement. Thats why the Sellers who have human reasons for selling come to us... retirement, relocation, divorce, partnership dispute. They want the World to know, but none of their close friends and people they know, to know.

As for making it in business, I can introduce you to around 120 foreigners that acquired a business with us in 2003. I'll take you around and you can ask them " Are they happy? " I know 90% would say "YES!!!!" Even some Bar owners,anywhere from 60,000 Baht to 500,000 Baht profit per month. Who are very happy..no they are not selling. :-) You can make money in Thailand. It's hard work but I see it everyday, people who do well to supplement their income here. Have no idea, why the naysayers talk about nightmare stories. I seem to only hear and see the positive experiences.

Good luck in your move. I would be happy to sit down and have coffee with you.

[email protected] 02-642-0213

[bmanly]

In the Uk I have a small consulting business which brings in a very good income (£100k + right now),

My friend listen too me. If you are earning 100K pounds a year then in 2 years you will have 200K theoretically if you can save it. In Thai baht at the current exchange rate that is 14 million baht, that in both your standards and Thai standards is a lot of money. That is an incredible amount of income by any standards in the world, why give it away for the unknown unless sure?

You should do what I did, I worked my guts out for 25 years in my home country in Mondaying jobs to buy property and invest in shares, in the end the debt was finally paid off and now I live off the income that provides. I won't go into it any further details here but if you want to private message please feel free to do so.

In your case with that kind of income you only need to save for 2 years! That is what it took me 25 years to get together!! If you put 200K pounds in for 5% interest that would give give you 58,000 baht a Month income for sitting on your ringer doing nothing! I assure you most ex pats including myself live on a lot less than that per Month.

If you are spending 30K Pounds a year in Travel to Thailand then you have a serious expenditure problem. That is way over the top and as I write Im using my calculator saying this guy spends 2 million baht a year in travel!!

In summary old mate, save your money for 2 years then retire on the interest and live happily ever after in Thailand with NO hassels and no business worries. Good luck!

[Expat2B]

You say you have a consultancy business - could you not "dip your toe in the water" and attract a project or two in Thailand or the region? I think that you would be foolhardy to throw up your currant GBP100K income just when you are likely to need it most - i.e. you are going to get married and considering starting a family.

I am in HK and it is quite easy for a Brit to do business here - with new openings to the mainland creating further opportunities. The property market appears to have bottomed out. It is also very accessible to Bkk which, for me,is a major attraction. (Oh, and I forgot to mention - low taxes).

Don't even think about teaching English or buying a bar!

Thanks for this pnustedt.

I have no intention of buying a bar or teaching english I just raised these as illustrations of the 2 main things it seems many do as "easy" options. I would love to pick up some contracts in the region, my difficulty is lacking network contacts to pick up work opportunities. Is it easy to pick things up "on the ground" so to speak, employed or contract? I have spent a bit of time in HK and think in many ways is a more natural environment for us Brits. Just out of curiosity what do you do there (PM me if you like)?

[Expat2B]

E-2-B -

With no background as an entrepreneur, I launched my own business here in Bangkok back 21 months ago.  I did just about everything wrong.  Many painful lessons learned.  'Ate up most of my life's savings.  But - some serendipity occurred, and I now have a sustaining business going, with steadily growing income.  And I see Thailand poised right now for at least 2-3 years of tremendous national business success.  For business, Thailand is "the right place, at the right time."

I personally would never buy a business in Thailand unless I had lived next to it or worked in it for a couple of years.

Thanks for the detailed response Steve, I must say a lot of your advice tallies with my own thoughts. I feel that I could take a year or two off right now and still return to the UK and get a decent income if everything went "tits up".

The only thing I would disagree with is your forecast for the thai economy, I do wonder about the health of the thai economy after the next election, since the government seem to be stoking up an irresponsible consumer credit boom/bubble accompanied by similar property and stock market bubbles. When these burst things could get a little nasty, so servicing a foreign market/exporting, seems to be the safest place to be.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment on not buying a business unless you know it well. It seems to me that in buying a business in thailand one encounters problems unusual elsewhere in the world. Since the flow of cash through the business and the financial accounts of that business may not perfectly match (to put it mildly), it seems impossible to really know what you are/are not buying unless you know the business very well.

I would pose this question to Greg from Sunbelt, how can anyone really truly know the cashflow they are buying in an environment where it would seem that so much cash is not properly accounted for (to save tax, or to meet the needs of customers)? It seems that unless you personally know the business very well, that you can never have anything like enough certainty to do anything other than take a big gamble. I still think for this reason many of the "plum" businesses are likely to be bought by those close to them rather than via brokerages.

[Expat2B]

In the Uk I have a small consulting business which brings in a very good income (£100k + right now),

My friend listen too me. If you are earning 100K pounds a year then in 2 years you will have 200K theoretically if you can save it. In Thai baht at the current exchange rate that is 14 million baht, that in both your standards and Thai standards is a lot of money. That is an incredible amount of income by any standards in the world, why give it away for the unknown unless sure?

You should do what I did, I worked my guts out for 25 years in my home country in Mondaying jobs to buy property and invest in shares, in the end the debt was finally paid off and now I live off the income that provides. I won't go into it any further details here but if you want to private message please feel free to do so.

In your case with that kind of income you only need to save for 2 years! That is what it took me 25 years to get together!! If you put 200K pounds in for 5% interest that would give give you 58,000 baht a Month income for sitting on your ringer doing nothing! I assure you most ex pats including myself live on a lot less than that per Month.

If you are spending 30K Pounds a year in Travel to Thailand then you have a serious expenditure problem. That is way over the top and as I write Im using my calculator saying this guy spends 2 million baht a year in travel!!

In summary old mate, save your money for 2 years then retire on the interest and live happily ever after in Thailand with NO hassels and no business worries. Good luck!

bmanly

Thanks for your thoughts, I coud actually have about £200k in the bank by the end of this year, the problem is that because of the nature of my work this is in no way guaranteed. I dont want to move to Thailand as some sort of utopian dream of bar crawling and a new girl every night. I want to be there because the girl I want to marry is Thai and I think it is a better environment to live and bring up kids. Due to pressure from her family etc. (see my original post) I cannot inifintely delay this, even if I wanted to (which I do not).

As I have freely admitted I have a very good standard of living here in the UK (although since selling my house I am now skimping a bit on accommodation costs, whist I work out the direction my life will take). One of lifes great ironies is that it is far easier to get accustomed (and adicted) to a higher standard of living than a lower one. I have recalculated my travel expenses and notice I did overstate a little, they are in reality closer to £26k at 6 trips a year, business class flights, 5 star hotel/condo etc for 10-21 days a time. Luckily I recharge the bulk of these to my uk company so at least effectively offset about 20% to 25% of the cost (as business development costs )

I am 34 and too young to retire (and would be bored out of my brain if I did). I couldnt manage on 58k a month and even if I did, the depreciation on capital (i.e. inflation) would start to bite after taking all the interest earned, this is quite apart from visa and other issues which would be raised by not having a WP.

I personally think the £-Baht rate will hit 85 before it stops slipping (see my response to the speculators thread) which would assist in an early move, that said as mentioned above I think the bubbles within the Thai economy are due to be pricked very soon after the next election (at the latest) and this might well push the baht towards the 100 to the £ level or beyond.

The bottom line as I said above if everything goes pear shaped I can ship back to the Uk and still earn a good salary as long as I either dont spend too long out of the UK (24 months max) or do somethinig to retain/enhance my skills whilst in Thailand. It is this latter course which I find most appealing, but with the former as a good fallback position.

[en184]

I have a few points to make:

1) The UK is a safe, stable country with a temperate climate, (not to hot, not to cold), a stable government, an excellent education system, with a strong currency, good economic growth, and manages to provide a reasonable living standard for most of its population. It is also a land of opportunity. Immigrants from asia often risk thier life to come to britain, hiding in trucks, claiming to be refugees, etc. Why leave such a country.

2) I assume the reason you have 200k is because you sold your house. How much are you really saving per year... 10K?

3) You spend more than the average brit earns in a year on travel. You might have a speding problem..

4) Expats worldwide send thier kids to school in the UK. In SIngapore, a UK education is deemed very prestigous. The uk has many famous boarding schools. Why do asian fdamilies save for many years to send thier kids to the uk to be educated?

5) You could easily afford to briing your thai wife over to britain. Why would her family object. Most thai women would jump at the opportunity to mov to england with a guy earning in excess of 7m bhat per year.

6) you should be investing to develop an income from dividends and rent. Why not buy your wife a small business, and see how much it makes.

7) if you already spend several months a year in thailand, why change your jet set life style. Buy some property in phuket, and enjoy your time with your wife. '

8) I assume you are some sort of IT contractor or project manager? Your skills can very quickly disappear if you do not use them. Protect your earnings and stay in the UK.

[Expat2B]

I have a few points to make:

1) The UK is a safe, stable country with a temperate climate, (not to hot, not to cold), a stable government, an excellent education system, with a strong currency, good economic growth, and manages to provide a reasonable living standard for most of its population.  It is also a land of opportunity.  Immigrants from asia often risk thier life to come to britain, hiding in trucks, claiming to be refugees, etc.  Why leave such a country.

2) I assume the reason you have 200k is because you sold your house.  How much are you really saving per year... 10K?

3) You spend more than the average brit earns in a year on travel.  You might have a speding problem.. 

4) Expats worldwide send thier kids to school in the UK.  In SIngapore, a UK education is deemed very prestigous.  The uk has many famous boarding schools.  Why do asian fdamilies save for many years to send thier kids to the uk to be educated?

5) You could easily afford to briing your thai wife over to britain.  Why would her family object.  Most thai women would jump at the opportunity to mov to england with a guy earning in excess of 7m bhat per year. 

6) you should be investing to develop an income from dividends and rent.  Why not buy your wife a small business, and see how much it makes.

7) if you already spend several months a year in thailand, why change your jet set life style.  Buy some property in phuket, and enjoy your time with your wife.  '

8) I assume you are some sort of IT contractor or project manager?  Your skills can very quickly disappear if you do not use them.  Protect your earnings and stay in the UK.

en,

Its horses for courses I suppose but in answer to your queries

1) Simple answer for me is increasing disillusionment and the prospect of poor economic conditions following the inevitable meltdown in property values. Another very good reason is to extract cash from my company without paying punitive levels of tax, I need to be non resident in the Uk for a period of time. Other than that its personal choice, I am not knocking the place but have spent too long here not to know it isnt time for a change (even if that isnt forever).

2) Nope you are wrong, unfortunately I only got half of the sale proceeds of my house due to the end of my former relationship, about 70k came from property sale, I can comfortably save somewhere in the order of £50k per annum at the moment

3) Its relative, if the average Brit earned what I do I am sure they would spend a lot more on travel, given the way my travel is financed (since the very act of seeking new business opportunities in asia makes it a tax deductible expense) the net cost is a lot lower than the headline figure. I am happy with my lifestyle, but could cut back as and when it really became essential for me.

4) Boarding schools in the uk might be great (at a price) but state schools are poor and I wouldnt want to send my kids to one (and I went to one myself). Not only that but the pressures and influences on kids here I think are unhealthy (just look at the way some of them dress and act). Many pepople send their kids to Uk boarding schools out of sheer snobbery. I am not a great believer in boarding schools at least until the age of 11, there are great schools in thailand and a fraction of the cost of something adequate in the UK.

5) Neither she nor her family would object, I believe she would miss her home however and she is close to her parents whilst I am not to mine. Since they are not getting any younger how easy would it be to visit them or respond to a crisis? She is an only child which also I think makes this even more important.

6) No point developing income from rent when the arse is falling out of the uk buy to let property market (massive oversupply of property forcing down rents at a time when underlying values are likely to fall from the property bubble either bursting or gradually deflating - depending upon who you choose to believe). I dont know enough about property elsewhere in the workd to make informed investement decisions (except I belive that the thai property market is potentially even more overvalued than that in the UK). In my opinion current stock market growth in the west (and especially in Thailand) is based on an overoptimistic view of economic growth and unrealistic discounting of potential economic problems. i prefer to remain relatively liquid from considered choice, not naivety, howver I did not say I didnt have additional (carefully chosen) investments did I?

My wife to be is a lawyer not a business person, and where would I buy her a business anyway? In BKK whilst I was in the Uk (I know many people do that but not for me), or in the uk where she could combine her lack of business experience with a lack of understanding of the uk market, people and products?

7) I am able to spend a reasonable amount of time in thailand right now because of the nature of my particular work right now, this may well change significantly in the near future. In addition I would like to be able to spend some time living at least in the same city as my fiance before finally taking the plunge into marriage.

8) I do not work in IT, although often work on the fringes of IT, my work does involve large chunks of project management amongst other things. But recent tax proposals would see me paying effectively 40% more tax on my earnings and effectively being in a worse financial position than someone employed by a large company on 50% of what i am currently paid. I would like to retain practice in some areas of work if at all possible (and have said as much in earlier posts).

I answer these questions (in spite of the clear implication contained within them) to underline the point that I am not some naive dreamer but have thought long and hard about the things I do want and the things I do not. I have a clear goal in mind and raised my original post to try and bottom out some views from others (who may even have been through the same experience) on how to move closer to my goal. If it turns out that it was the wrong goal then I have only myself to blame but at 35 I am confident that I could (if it came to it) make some mistakes for a year or two and still return to the Uk and find something which paid me well.

I am not looking for a way to finance hanging out in go go bars every night (not that I have anything against those who choose to do so), I am looking at trying to find a way of life which I think will make me and my new family happier. Is it that hard to believe that someone is willing to trade quite a lot of income against a potentially better quality of life?

[Khun ?]

If you want positive and up beat then my feelings are Thailand has many things going for it and will be the regions leader in the future. Being in a bubble maybe in some ways but I think they have finally started to go in the right direction and they will definetly expand in many areas. Not the cheapest labor in the region but

cost of running multi national business without the religious problems of others in

the region alone give Thailand a good advantage as long as they keep corruption

down. I do not know any other countries in SE Asia that westerners will beg borrow and steal to get to live there.

Would it be possible to hire your girlfriend as an employee for your company and

her get you started in Thailand while you give it a last go at home getting the big bucks. That may get you the tax benefits you are looking for, and let her do the traveling while you hit the last couple years in a big way.

Anyways you have done well and have the best of both worlds and only 34. Sunbelt and IndioSiam seem to be the 2 that can give detailed info.

Good Luck

[en184]

Hi,

I am a bit biased, since I have just accepted a 6 month contract in the UK. Even after tax, the UK still pays well.

If I was to move to south east asia, singapore is best, and would have most opportunities for someone like you.

Thailand is a tough market to operate in, with alot of low cost operators.

I have seen many farang lose all because of a thai women (myself included).

[Sunbelt Asia]

Since the flow of cash through the business and the financial accounts of that business may not perfectly match (to put it mildly), it seems impossible to really know what you are/are not buying unless you know the business very well.

I would pose this question to Greg from Sunbelt, how can anyone really truly know the cashflow they are buying in an environment where it would seem that so much cash is not properly accounted for (to save tax, or to meet the needs of customers)? It seems that unless you personally know the business very well, that you can never have anything like enough certainty to do anything other than take a big gamble. I still think for this reason many of the "plum" businesses are likely to be bought by those close to them rather than via brokerages.

If a businessman declared the income and paid 30% corp tax on it. Thats a pretty good sign. In my 20 years, never saw that you couldn't take that to the bank especially if 7% was collected as well on the gross sales. To get the " cash flow" we use to recast the financial, you simply add back the depreciation, one time charges and owners salary. You then have your multiple.

Most all foreign owned businesses file as they need to for their work permit. Those tax returns are a good starting point for due diligence. Funny thing, foreign businessmen in Thailand are alot more honest on their taxes than the West. Think it comes down to Thai prisons . :-)

Some foreigners use offshore banking as well for their import and export but of course all those bank records are available as well. In due diligence you really get to look deep inside the guts of the company.

As for Thais, probably 50% of the bigger companies such as mfgs would pay 100% on their taxes. The other half don't lie on gross sales, the same as the West. They do it on expenses. If a business has been around 5 years, you can in most cases take 10% of the companies gross sales and say thats the minimum cash flow. ( profit before depreciation, taxes, owners salary)

The beautiful thing about acquiring a business is if it doesn't make you comfortable after looking at the financial books, you walk away. It doesn't cost a thing. Their are others to look at.

On small Mom and Pop shops. If its a lunch restaurant. The potential buyer monitors how many people come in for two weeks. The Seller tells the employees they are a friend thinking of acquiring a restaurant in their home country . See how many people come in for 10 straight days. Get the average check and multiply it by the ave # of guests. You know the food costs should be 25% if its a Thai restaurant. Subtract that along with the rent, electricity and labor costs. Take 10% off that number and you have a good idea of the cash flow.

On a bar, you can look at the liquor distributors invoice. Checking how much beer is ordered, etc. check bins of the customers...Check the bank accounts, life style of the seller. Watch the bar and see what the customers order, does this seem to correspond to the distributors invoice.

Laundries check the electricity bill.

Lots more rules of thumb, I can pass on..

As for the plum businesses, they sure don't want their friends going through their personal bank accounts, etc.. The seller understand that the potential buyer will need to do so. If they can agree on the price then the books are open. Strangers are fine but friends seem to talk to other friends who are their friends as well. Now everyone at the country club knows you made XXX last year. Who needs that?

Thats why Sunbelt will always get the best businesses. Confidentiality is our middle name. The buyer and seller both know its important. Hope I was able to convey the physics of our clients.

www.sunbeltasia.com or 02-642-0213

[Digger]

I have been pondering a move to Thailand for some time now for many reasons mainly the crap weather, poor quality of life, high taxes and miserable people here in the UK. Along the way I have acquired a Thai GF (soon to be fiance) who is highly qualified and working in a good professional job. She does however come from a conservative family, who are not at all happy at the amount of time we are spending together every 6 weeks to 2 months when I am in Thailand, and when I am there find myself constantly watching the clock to ensure she is back home "on time" each evening.

Since we have been together for some time, we are now keen to take the next step and get engaged and subsequently married. The big problem for me however is job/income uncertainty here in the UK (if we had to live here) and complete job/income uncertainty there if I take a gamble and just move to Thailand on spec.

In the Uk I have a small consulting business which brings in a very good income (£100k + right now), I am well educated to MBA level and have good all round business skills (and extensive experience in management and business improvement consulting with large companies and governmental bodies). However I also have fairly expensive tastes so have been spending a large amount/all of my earnings for as a long as I can remember (like many others I guess). I am in my mid 30's if this is of any relevance.

After returning to the UK earlier this week I am completely fed up and find it difficult to motivate myself workwise and I really just want to throw in the towe here and move, but I am sensible enough (and have done enough research) to know that this will be far from easy, especially finding something to bring in an income I would consider decent.

I sold up my property a few months ago (mainly as part of the final split from my ex here). Since I think that property values are due for a sharp fall in the UK, I havent bought anything new and have over £100k in the bank which rises on a monthly basis (quite significantly) from my contract income (which could end any day). I also have a further £50k available which covers my outstanding MBA loan (over 7 years at a very low rate of interest). I would be wary of tapping into this fund unless I could get a much better rate of return than the 5% interest I am currently paying (and enough extra to balance the currency risk).

So enough background about me, basically I am looking for advice on how/if it is possible to enjoy a very good lifestyle in LOS without being relocated there as an employee of a large foreign company. It seems there are 2 routes to finding a good job/income in Thailand, 1) local networking 2) buying a business. How realistic is it to take either of these routes and find something that will yield (over the longer term) at least 150k baht per month? Should I just give up on this goal now and try my luck in China/HK/SIN? How easy is it to find work in these regions also (I understand that the economy in SIN especially is having difficulties). I also seem to find that businesses for sale via brokers tend not to be particularly appealing (no offence intended to those who run brokerages) since I assume that the best opportunities tend to come from networking and word of mouth contact (as in any other part of the world), am I a million miles away here?

So I guess I am asking in a very long winded way, what are my realistic chances of being able to earn a reasonable income within a 12 month period of just moving to BKK? I have assumed that a non-imm B visa would be fairly straightforward to get from a consulate here based on cash for investment available and a letter from my own UK company.

Why dont you consider setting up a consultancy business in HKG and then pitching for business in the region. HKG has many advantages, not least the fact that if your revenues are earnt outside of HKG and remited in, corporation tax is negligable if anything on the profits and from a personal standpoint, if you are in HKG less than I think 40 days per year, you dont even pay the very low rates of income tax. Therefore to all intent and purpose, you are a HKG based company and work permit but it costs you virtually nothing. Come in and out of Thailand on regular 30 day arrival visa's, staying for a say 10-14 days each time and then go out again to say HKG, Singapore, Jakarta etc to do actual business. Have these companies pay your fee's into HKG and your sorted. You have no Thai business and therefore do not need a work permit here, assuming you dont work for Thai companies.

Thats what I would tend to consider - however you need to be prepared to shell out for some good advice from a decent law firm and Accountants in HKG to tell you how to structure it correctly. If you really wanted to be super clean, you could set up a business in Thailand as well - declare your Thai income and pay tax - even if its by setting up a company to own a house and paying rent to your company. That helps you get started to 3 years of B visa's and work permits which could lead to permanent residency if you wanted.

Most people in the region are cynical of someone being based in Thailand on a regional role - therefore HKG has a lot of appeal.

Hope this helps

[Expat2B]

Digger

Thanks for this useful and constructive advice. It seems like a viable way forward that I hadnt really considered. The only big issue with entering the regional market in consulting is that it can be a very difficult market to pentrate without a good network of contacts. Do you have personal experience in this market?