Zambrano Application; Uk

[thaigirllondon]

Why didn't she just secure ILR through the access-to-child route suggested to you in the original thread many months ago? It would have been sorted by now and the two routes currently under consideration are messy indeed.

Hello Bangkockney with the cool name. For knowledge, can you explain what Zambrano is in a notshell? And how it is different from ILR access to child? Its good to learn something new and you look like you have good knowledge of this already.After I spoke out with no knowledge, I should now try to understand it so I will improve all the time

Thanks

Jazz

Edited May 18, 2012 by thaigirllondon

[7by7]

As this topic is headed "Zambrano Application; UK" I would expect that anyone who wishes to comment would either already know what the Zambrano judgment is or if they didn't find out before passing comment on a Zambrano application; either by research elsewhere or by asking here!

The judgment

Judgment of the Court (Grand Chamber) of 8 March 2011.

Gerardo Ruiz Zambrano v Office national de l’emploi (ONEm).

Reference for a preliminary ruling: tribunal du travail de Bruxelles - Belgium.

Citizenship of the Union - Article 20 TFEU - Grant of right of residence under European Union law to a minor child on the territory of the Member State of which that child is a national, irrespective of the previous exercise by him of his right of free movement in the territory of the Member States - Grant, in the same circumstances, of a derived right of residence, to an ascendant relative, a third country national, upon whom the minor child is dependent - Consequences of the right of residence of the minor child on the employment law requirements to be fulfilled by the third-country national ascendant relative of that minor.

Case C-34/09.

Judgment on carers of British Citizens

The Court of Justice of the European Union (ECJ) recently handed down judgment in the case of Ruiz Zambrano (C-34/09) This judgment creates a right to reside and work for the sole carer of a dependent British citizen when that carer has no other right of residence in the UK and removing the carer from the UK would mean the British citizen would have to leave the European Union.

A Zambrano application is made under the EEA regulations.

An access to a child visa is made under the UK immigration rules. It allows the non EEA parent of a child living in the UK with their other parent to visit the UK so they can see that child. It is valid for 12 months and at the end of that time the holder can apply for ILR. For more details see this topic.

For a Zambrano application to succeed, the applicant must be the child's sole carer. For an access to child visa application to succeed, the child must be living in the UK with their other parent or another carer who has legal custody.

BTW, please stop making multiple posts one after the other to basically ask the same question or make the same comment. If you wish to add something to a post after posting you have 30 minutes to edit it (hint, click on the edit button in the bottom right hand corner).

Please also read the forum rules regarding fonts.

[thaigirllondon]

Thanks , I understand now. But what have these points got to do with a Zambro now that I have read and understand what it means? May I comment, but did she leave in this point below in the application? as wouldnt tht show it is the the marriage is 'sort of' genine? I am told you must write everything on an application so she took this route as it offered more security?

Marriage and her living in the UK with him was his idea, not hers. She did feel a sort of love for him and so chose this route rather than the access to child one as she felt it offered her more security.

[7by7]

Many people marry for reasons other than all consuming love; security being one reason. What about cultures where arranged marriages are the norm?

The marriage was genuine. It was certainly accepted as such by the UKBA when they issued her spouse visa. It was not her who ended it; it was her husband.

The breakdown of the marriage is relevant to a Zambrano application. If the marriage hadn't broken down she would have applied for ILR in the usual way at the relevant time and would not now be in this situation.

[7by7]

An off topic post has been deleted.

[thaigirllondon]

Many people marry for reasons other than all consuming love; security being one reason. What about cultures where arranged marriages are the norm?

In response to your post in this topic.

Like India, where they have arranged marriage? What about Afganistan where they marry at 12? Is this comparing apples and oranges?

In Thailand when a woman marries because she 'sort of' loved husband, where she married cause it was the 'safer option', this goes against our culture. And Thais refer to the marriage as a 'sort of' marriage.

I bet you did not put that on the application

Good luck with the application

[7by7]

Sigh! As you insist on doing this in public:-

I am not comparing apples and oranges; there are many reasons for marrying and ways of doing so. Some of those are good, some bad; according to one's cultural viewpoint.

A child being forced to marry an adult many years older than her is, I think, bad. Although it used to happen regularly in both the UK and Thailand not that long ago.

Arranged marriages between consenting adults? Up to them. I know Indian couples in arranged marriages who are perfectly happy; and will argue at great length that that way is better; and point to the comparative divorce rate between couples who marry for love and couples in arranged marriages.

What about Thai women in their 20's who marry western men in their 60's? Are they marrying for love or security? Many Thai women marry Thai men older than them; is this against Thai culture? (Rhetorical questions; don't answer.)

I am glad that you have a perfect life, have married the man you love and have never made a mistake. Not everyone is as lucky as you.

This topic is seeking advice on an immigration matter.

This sub-forum is for those seeking and those offering immigration advice.

I said earlier:

"If anyone feels so morally superior to her that they feel she should be judged and found wanting rather than helped, that is their right. But don't parade such self perceived moral superiority here.

Any further posts along those lines in this topic will be deleted and the poster suspended.

The same for any posts not related to a Zambrano application, an ILR application on domestic violence grounds or posts on other ways she could stay in the UK."

Heed the warning, or suffer the concequences.

[7by7]

A post has been deleted.

(Rhetorical questions; don't answer.)

Last chance. Next off topic post and I will suspend posting rights.

Edit:-

Anyone who wishes to comment on this or try and explain themselves; do so by PM!

This topic has wandered all over the place enough.

Edited May 24, 2012 by 7by7
Addenda

[paully]

she finally spoke to CAB and they put her in touch with a solicitor who she saw last week. She has persuaded her to try the domestic violence route to ILR; even though she has very little evidence of DV other than her husband throwing her out of the marital home while she was pregnant. The solicitor reckons this is enough for her to not only be successful but because she is currently living on friend's floors, including ours

The solicitor says an ILR application under the DV rules would be better than a Zambrano application as once she had ILR that would be it, until and unless she applied for citizenship.

Any thoughts?

To get back to the topic, the solicitor may well be right about the advantages of an ILR application citing DV in support over a Zambrano application. But, as mentioned, there would need to be fairly compelling evidence of domestic violence, mental and/or physical, by this man over a period of time. It would not have to be as strong as the evidence needed for a judge to grant an injunction in a court, but there would need to be detailed evidence which looks convincing.

Has she begun to put together a diary of events and abuse, 7by7? With all due respect, if I were her solicitor, I would have told her to keep as comprehensive a record as possible of abuse/threats/harrassment etc by whatever means in the form of a diary, writing it down as soon as it occurs. This can then be put in the form of a sworn written statement in which she certifies that the contents are true to her knowledge and belief (and so can be relied on by the authorities). The police report and a brief statement from her friend should also, clearly, be included. I appreciate that this lady may not be the most organised person in the world (not trying to be nasty about her), but she needs to work methodically to collate her own evidence.

[7by7]

I appreciate that this lady may not be the most organised person in the world (not trying to be nasty about her), but she needs to work methodically to collate her own evidence.

Which is part of the problem, Paully. She does tend to let things drift and then panic when she thinks she's running out of time; after all, it's been 14 months now since he kicked her out!

One of the problems with the DV route is that there is no police report. The one time she tried to report it the police would not take her seriously and refused to take any details, so she never attempted to report it again. I advised her when she told me this to make an official complaint; but she is worried about complaining about police officers; despite my assuring her that it's not the same here as in Thailand.

Her son's British passport has arrived now, so the next step is up to her; Zambrano again or try the DV route to ILR.

[paully]

She does tend to let things drift and then panic when she thinks she's running out of time; after all, it's been 14 months now since he kicked her out!

One of the problems with the DV route is that there is no police report. The one time she tried to report it the police would not take her seriously and refused to take any details, so she never attempted to report it again. I advised her when she told me this to make an official complaint; but she is worried about complaining about police officers; despite my assuring her that it's not the same here as in Thailand.

Yes, there's only so much you can do for her, 7by7. That's a pity about the police, but she could still get enough together for a decent DV application if she tries.

[7by7]

Aye, there's the rub: if she tries.

I've been on at her, the CAB have tried to help her but she still wont get off her backside unless pushed.

As I've already said, the wife and I would leave her to it if it wasn't for the boy.

She's not with us, hasn't been for two weeks now. All we can, and will, do now is wait for her to ask for our help again. If she does, I'll make sure she knows it will be the last time we help her on this; she does something, DV or Zambrano, or she's on her own.

[bobrussell]

It would do no harm to get her to speak to a local domestic violence organisation. My sister in law was suffering all of the classic forms of emotional abuse but from the outside it all just looked like a lousy marriage.

A good advisor (CAB specialist, solicitor or DV advisor) can help put this down on paper in a form that the UKBA will recognise for what it is! My sister was classified as high risk to my surprise based on specialist knowledge. The Police were brought in to help (most have DV units) and these can be genuinely helpful as well as providing supporting paperwork.

Her husband was/is a control freak and matters have been sorted out through the courts and divorce is the final stage. Don't assume that there is a weak DV case - it can take expertise to get the full story and many Thais have different standards of what are acceptable behaviour standards and may accept abusive behaviour as 'normal' which is not acceptable in the UK. I know this is a generalisation but attitudes can be very different between cultures.

A DV application is not always straight forward but I still feel she should fall under Zambrano (as a back up) from the information given (subject to supplying required information) but the UKBA are likely to drag these out for some time and I bet there will be more EU court cases as governments resist!

Has she applied for the child's passport yet? This confirms the childs EU status and will support both a Zambrano application and may well be taken into account by the UKBA processing a DV application. I have been very critical of a lot of the UKBA processes but cannot fault how they processed my sister-in-laws application.

Edited May 24, 2012 by bobrussell

[7by7]

I hear what you are saying, Bob, and have been on at her to do just that. She finally talked to the CAB about the DV issue a couple of weeks ago and they put her onto the solicitor who suggested the DV route to ILR and has offerred to help her preapre her application.

That was in Surrey where we live, although the CAB sent her to a solicitor in Farnborough (Hants), so hopefully she's a specialist.

But as said previously she went to Brum a couple of weeks ago to talk to her employer as her maternity pay is about to end, and is still there!

Yes, the boy does now have a passport. Even getting that was delayed as the counter signatory she used only gave his mobile number and the IPS tried to contact him but couldn't. It took her a couple of weeks to do anything about that. I counter signed the new application, but the IPS didn't contact me.

[thaigirllondon]

Lets not forget that seven, yes 7 said that there had been no direct violence. And he said that there was one incident when the husband (whom she felt a kind of love for) put her out of the marital home. A marital home that was his idea, not hers.

Opps sorry, I meant 7by7

Edited May 24, 2012 by thaigirllondon

[7by7]

As has already been said, not by me, domestic violence does not have to be physical; it can be emotional.

That the marriage was originally his idea, not hers, does not excuse domestic violence. Nor his ejecting her from her home when she was pregnant with his child.

A solicitor thinks she has a case and, with respect, I am sure she knows more about the law than you do.

[paully]

the CAB sent her to a solicitor in Farnborough (Hants), so hopefully she's a specialist.

That may well be the same solicitor in Farnborough that a Thai friend of the wife's was put on to by a local CAB in Hampshire, also concerning domestic violence and immigration. The firm were pretty good - but a bit of a drive for her to attend meetings!

[bobrussell]

7x7 has my sympathy! This is very frustrating to be on the outside, looking in especially if the person directly involved in the DV does not seem to be helping her/himself.

This can be a consequence of the abuse so despite the temptation to back off and walk away don't do it! I am certain that this option is not on your mind anyway despite its attraction! Good for you for sticking by her and it will hopefully end well. Clearly you are a good friend!

Domestic Violence is not a good name and I wish it was replaced with Domestic Abuse!

(For those that have never got embroiled in this situation a brief but good definition of DV is:

In Women's Aid's view domestic violence is physical, sexual, psychological or financial violence that takes place within an intimate or family-type relationship and that forms a pattern of coercive and controlling behaviour ).

[NRPF]

Hello, I just wondered what the current status of this case was - sounds like you've been putting in lots of good work on it. It seems to me that, so long as your friend's child is a British citizen and in her sole care then she falls squarely within the Zambrano exception and she should just gather as much evidence as she can to show 1) that the child does have British citizenship and 2) that he is solely dependent on her (e.g. perhaps get a statement from social services, a GP and take her along you your local MP's surgery and ask them to follow up her application?).

As you state, applications under Zambrano are free, whereas they are £800+ under the DV rule, which could be a thorough waste if there isn't any evidence. If there wasn't actually any real domestic violence either then it's pretty irresponsible of her solicitor to recommend this, because such a claim could constitute fraud. I can see why a solicitor would recommend an application which would lead to permanent settlement with full access to benefits rather than a route which may only allow her to work (UKBA are still finalising the rule, but it at the least it will include a right to work), but she needs to focus on making the application she meets the criteria for. You could consider sending a more detailed enquiry to the No Recourse to Public Funds Network?

[paully]

If there wasn't actually any real domestic violence either then it's pretty irresponsible of her solicitor to recommend this, because such a claim could constitute fraud.

But remember that the definition of 'domestic violence' for this purpose is quite wide, it covers abuse as well as violence, as bobrussell pointed out.