Justice Minister Rules Out Thaksin Pardon

[ajarnyai]

It would have been a master stroke if they would have pulled it off. I wonder why they thought they could do it? The law they were trying to change could be vetoed, and the pardon itself is not in the hands of the government. I think there are enough elements in the overall Thai government that don't want to see this man return. The PM may have the top spot, but she doesn't the most important spot.

[FOODLOVER]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

Are you wearing red glasses?

He's Hammered.

[pimay11]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

I think you may have commited a typo. Did you mean to say "Rabid reactions of his red supporters"? Burn baby burn! Bomb baby bomb!

[puck2]

The best part of a good plan

1) Make others think it is not your plan

2) Make others thing this is not your wish

3) Play the sympaphy game

4) Let the back room curruption take its road

5) when your plan works, tell every one it was not your idea, but what the others wanted so you will humbly comply

Is supportet by UDD = Union against Democracy and for Dictatorship

[ratcatcher]

Looks like the future is bright for Yingluck if she can sort out the remaining mess of the flood disaster.

She'll be P.M. for another 3 years +.

As for Big Brother, just like a cobra, he will go to ground until the next opportunity to strike arises.

And that won't be too long.

[hammered]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

Your opinion in your first paragraph is noted, but I disagree. I think it was a very well-worded Machiavellian letter...my opinion.

As for the second paragraph, you really thing Thaksin's return will only change a FEW people's lives??? Khun T likes to compare himself to Mandela - did his return not change the face of a country? In Mandela's case, it was for the better. In Thaksin's case, it would be for the worse - for virtually the entire country. Only change a few people's lives indeed...for the better; most would be for the worse.

Your post is not up to your usual standards of insight and clarity.

Reality is that most people have far more important things to think about and do than worry about Thaksin. His return to the country or not is hardly going to affect their income, job, family, education, life. Surely that is reality for any poltician when it comes to it. Thaksin's return will affect powerful people both ranged with him and against him and probably in the political and business spheres as well as a bunch of career bureaucrats etc. However, we are talking about a small number of people. The Mandela comparison is very different. That was about the majority getting the vote. In Thailand people already have that. It just affects a political balance but even there it will be limited as his parties win the elections and their policies aimed at throwing things to the majority so they are happy and keep voting for them are not going to change much.

I do wish there were a sarcasm smiley - it applied to the Mandela comparison, I guess you didn't get it. Sorry.

My wife is a social worker who ran an NGO here in Issan. I used to go around to the villages with her, and we heard many - many - horror stories from farmers who got trapped in the Thaksin-sponsored government loans, couldn't pay them back, got into trouble with money-lenders in an effort to repay those loans, and lost their farms and their houses. And that's just within one small province. Suicides occurred because of that program.

And you conveniently forget the lesson that history repeats itself. The extra-judicial killings on the so-called war on drugs, the murders in the South and the escalation of violence there brought out by his ill-designed policies... How can you say it will only affect a few?

And you are correct. History has shown that he "throws things" to those he supported, and withhold "things" from those who did not support him. Remember the tsunami in Phuket?

But keep digging...you'll hit rock bottom eventually.

I am not making a moral point just a political one. There are enough who make the moral points on here when it suits them and not when it doesnt, so I increasingly find it best left alone. The drug war was amazingly more popular than virtually anything else Thaksin did and received support form all kind of places and has faced little internal criticism. I dont agree with that personally but cannot deny the reality. The drug deaths are also by dint nowhere near as unpopular or for a variety of reasons as politically damaging as the deaths caused by the previous regime. Of course there are moral questions about both but that just takes us into how some jusitfy one while condemning the other.

Reality is though the vast majority of people in this country will not be affected if Thaksin is in Thailand or not. The country didnt fall apart when Suchinda was amnestied before even being charged or when Manoon returned unfettered and it goes on despite coupmakers never being punished. Whether the people want Thaksin back is another matter but his allies do have that habit of winning every election they contest without exception and that does suggest something maybe. And to suggest it is anything about upholding law when myriads of powerful lawbreakers including those who overthrew the entire democratic system and ripped up a constitution are never charged is a little bit of a stretch in many people's eyes as is the failure to investigate those who ordered last Mays events.

[whybother]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

Of course the letter would go down well with his supporters.

Anyone with half a brain would see right through it.

[hammered]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

I think you may have commited a typo. Did you mean to say "Rabid reactions of his red supporters"? Burn baby burn! Bomb baby bomb!

Its all about PR and this is by any standard a brilliant letter. Even the biggest of Thaksins enemies usually acknowledge what a brilliant PR player he is and lament the inability of his opponents ability at PR and marketing. This is not a comment about whether Thaksin is good or bad but an acknowledgement of a very good manouver. He has on this taken the middle ground. The letter also works in a variety of other levels

There isnt much point in either being rabidly anti or pro Thaksin if yo uask me, but enjoy the poltical games. As I said whether he returns or not isnt going to affect hardly anyone

[hammered]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

Of course the letter would go down well with his supporters.

Anyone with half a brain would see right through it.

I wouldnt underestimate the intelligence of his supporters and allies

[lannarebirth]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

I think you may have commited a typo. Did you mean to say "Rabid reactions of his red supporters"? Burn baby burn! Bomb baby bomb!

Its all about PR and this is by any standard a brilliant letter. Even the biggest of Thaksins enemies usually acknowledge what a brilliant PR player he is and lament the inability of his opponents ability at PR and marketing. This is not a comment about whether Thaksin is good or bad but an acknowledgement of a very good manouver. He has on this taken the middle ground. The letter also works in a variety of other levels

There isnt much point in either being rabidly anti or pro Thaksin if yo uask me, but enjoy the poltical games. As I said whether he returns or not isnt going to affect hardly anyone

I guess I gave you too much credit when claiming you were only being amoral.

[webfact]

The letter is well organised, consisting of 5 paragraphs. Mr T is not a well organised guy, who could write a structured letter.

First paragraph: He mentioned about crisis, a need for prong dong (reconciliation) and his willingness for self sacrifice.

Clinton and Obama have also supported Thai prong dong -- not coincidental.

Second paragraph: He withdrew himself from any benefits of the amnesty, currently crafted by the Govt.

Third paragraph: He referred to a need to prevent any complications from hurting the feeling of HM the King.

Fourth paragraph: Thaksin signalled an end of the conflict soon. "When the light of dharmma appears, everything will end."

fifth paragraph: He called for Thais to learn to "forgive and forget" (he used English terms here) so that the country returns to peace.

It sounded like a manifesto for the whole country to follow -- with him designing the game from the outside.

Thaksin's backing off from the amnesty is only a strategic retreat.

The retreat was aimed at cooling the opposition and the public outcry from the other side of the political spectrum.

This would help the govt's stability somewhat in immediate term, though govt's credibility has been badly damaged by flood mismanagement.

But he made it clear that he would come back since Thais had to learn to "forgive and forget."

"When the light of dharmma appears, everything will end." What is the light of dharmma?

The light of dharmma is New Thailand, which will replace the old structure.

/via @ThanongK

[elcent]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

Of course the letter would go down well with his supporters.

Anyone with half a brain would see right through it.

I wouldnt underestimate the intelligence of his supporters and allies

you're talking of those who are in line of getting cronied, lol, expecting their promises made to them to materialize, which would not affect common folks in any way. they all just ask --- WHY?

over 600 dead due to a designed flooding says it all.

[hammered]

Even Thanong obsessing over the hidden meaning of the letter, while at the same time by doing so promoting and marketing it. Thaksin has moved the whole story in the media again. Im sure Yingluck and oddly enough Sukhumband are both happy while the army, democrat party probably not so. The PAD may also be OK with it considering they would likely have had only a small turn out like the multicoloureds did. Ditto in the council of state who have possibly (we dont know what was going to be proposed we shouldnt forget) dodged a bullet

[hammered]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

Of course the letter would go down well with his supporters.

Anyone with half a brain would see right through it.

I wouldnt underestimate the intelligence of his supporters and allies

you're talking of those who are in line of getting cronied, lol, expecting their promises made to them to materialize, which would not affect common folks in any way. they all just ask --- WHY?

over 600 dead due to a designed flooding says it all.

An equal and opposite argument could be made for those who vote the other way. However, I would never suggets anyone was stupid for who they support. I find that when you talk to people they have their reasons which make sense even if I dont agree with them. That is the beauty of these things. People can have different ideas and they get resolved at the ballot box

[webfact]

Yingluck Urged to Review Thaksin Pardon Bid

The opposition party leader called on Yingluck Shinawatra's government to reconsider the attempt to give her deposed brother and ex-premier a royal pardon.

Yesterday, opposition party leader, Abhisit Vejjajiva expressed his view about the open letter written by fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra in Dubai.

In the handwritten letter, Thaksin said he is ready to sacrifice his personal happiness in exchange for national reconciliation.

Abhisit said he has not yet looked into the details of the letter.

However, he stated that the government should not do anything that would benefit any one person in particular, after the cabinet paved the way for royal clemency for the deposed former PM, Thaksin.

Abhisit suggested that Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra review the government's controversial draft royal decree seeking a pardon for jailed convicts, including her sibling and fugitive former leader, Thaksin Shinawatra on the occasion of His Majesty the King's 84th birthday on Dec 5.

Abhisit insisted that the government stop making inappropriate moves.

He added that Thaksin must adhere to the law and the justice system.

Therefore, he should be punished for the cases in which he was found guilty.

However, Thaksin is entitled to seek justice and appeal the other pending cases in court.

Meanwhile, he stated that the government must listen to everyone, especially those who oppose the government's moves.

Abhisit said Yingluck must make clear her stance on the proposed decree and give straightforward answers to any questions arising from it as soon as she returns from Bali, Indonesia, where the 19th ASEAN Summit was taking place.

-- Tan Network 2011-11-21

[elcent]

Even Thanong obsessing over the hidden meaning of the letter, while at the same time by doing so promoting and marketing it. Thaksin has moved the whole story in the media again. Im sure Yingluck and oddly enough Sukhumband are both happy while the army, democrat party probably not so. The PAD may also be OK with it considering they would likely have had only a small turn out like the multicoloureds did. Ditto in the council of state who have possibly (we dont know what was going to be proposed we shouldnt forget) dodged a bullet

you forgot that it was admitted that the amnesty bill was altered from standard amnesties before.

... nice try, but try another one ...

[ianf]

The best part of a good plan

1) Make others think it is not your plan

2) Make others thing this is not your wish

3) Play the sympaphy game

4) Let the back room curruption take its road

5) when your plan works, tell every one it was not your idea, but what the others wanted so you will humbly comply

Off course, the guy is the ultimate arch-manipulator

[PaulBax]

it is very strange that people scream so much about corruption and drug users being part of an amnesty!

violent offenders etc are fine as are parts of organised crime but someone who only takes a back hander is not! (not talking about Thaksin here)

[hanuman1]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

Edited November 21, 2011 by hanuman1

[elcent]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

there are background messages floating that are beyond ones wildest imagination here. There was a good reason to call it off.

[hanuman1]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

there are background messages floating that are beyond ones wildest imagination here. There was a good reason to call it off.

Okay, I'll add this option:

v) It's something we cannot possibly conceive but nevertheless based on good reason.

I'm sensing that which makes a mockery of most debates pertaining to Thai political power these days, and necessitates cryptic beating-about-the-bush such as the first half of this sentence. Presuming of course you know what you're on about. Whatever that is. Maybe..

Edited November 21, 2011 by hanuman1

[elcent]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

there are background messages floating that are beyond ones wildest imagination here. There was a good reason to call it off.

Okay, I'll add this option:

v) It's something we cannot possibly conceive but nevertheless based on good reason.

I'm sensing that which makes a mockery of most debates pertaining to Thai political power these days, and necessitates cryptic beating-about-the-bush such as the first half of this sentence. Presuming of course you know what you're on about. Whatever that is. Maybe..

I don't think they would risk to have the whole clan and supporters sent to undisclosed destinations. Not sure how far this plan has developed, but people have simply enough, even former reds.

[hanuman1]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

there are background messages floating that are beyond ones wildest imagination here. There was a good reason to call it off.

Okay, I'll add this option:

v) It's something we cannot possibly conceive but nevertheless based on good reason.

I'm sensing that which makes a mockery of most debates pertaining to Thai political power these days, and necessitates cryptic beating-about-the-bush such as the first half of this sentence. Presuming of course you know what you're on about. Whatever that is. Maybe..

I don't think they would risk to have the whole clan and supporters sent to undisclosed destinations. Not sure how far this plan has developed, but people have simply enough, even former reds.

You're getting more cryptic than me, now. This must be serious. Whatever it is.

[sparebox2]

Thaksin is a big bad wolf. No pardon of any kind must be given.

In fact, if he go to court for all those pending charge, he could end up in jail for life.

[Thaddeus]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

I'll add one.

v) they got a small whisper in their ears "try it and the tanks roll"

[elcent]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

I'll add one.

v) they got a small whisper in their ears "try it and the tanks roll"

worse than that probably. I hear people thinking

vi) "wipe out"

just listen around without being noticed.

Edited November 21, 2011 by elcent

[whybother]

Brilliant letter showing calmness, reasonableness and willingness to take sacrifice by Thaksin especially when compared to the rabid reactions of his enemies. This letter will go down very well with his supporters and also helps with those in the middle who want ti to all go away by making him look reasonable compared to his never willing to compromise enemies.

The reality is whether Thaksin returns or not isnt going to change more than a few people's lives, but most realise that keeping him outside is going to keep the silliness going on and on, and that does affect lives. Realpolitik

Of course the letter would go down well with his supporters.

Anyone with half a brain would see right through it.

I wouldnt underestimate the intelligence of his supporters and allies

I'm sure his supporters with intelligence see right through it too. They understand the aim of the letter.

[CWMcMurray]

Its simply amazing that a crook on the run from jail time could be considered for a Pardon in the first place . Simply amazing .....

I completely agree with you that no fugitive on the run should ever be considered for a pardon. I also belive any pardon for Thaksin would likley be the absolute worst things that could happen to Thailand, as it would likely lead to so much civil unrest from both supporters and those against.

That being said... it would not be the first time that a government abused this power

http://en.wikipedia....don_controversy

While most presidents grant pardons on several days throughout their terms, Clinton chose to make most of them on January 20, 2001. Collectively, the controversy surrounding these actions has sometimes been called Pardongate in the press

Marc Rich, a fugitive who had fled the U.S. during his prosecution, was residing in Switzerland. Rich owed $48 million in taxes and was charged with 51 counts of tax fraud, was pardoned of tax evasion. He was required to pay a 100 million dollar fine and waive any use of the pardon as a defense against any future civil charges that were filed against him in the same case. Critics complained that Denise Rich, his former wife, had made substantial donations to both the Clinton library and to Mrs. Clinton's senate campaign. According to Paul Volcker's independent investigation of Iraqi Oil-for-Food kickback schemes, Marc Rich was a middleman for several suspect Iraqi oil deals involving over 4 million barrels (640,000 m³) of oil.^[21] Longtime Clinton supporters and Democratic leaders such as former President Jimmy Carter, James Carville and Terry McAuliffe, were all critical of the Clinton pardon. Carter said the pardons were "disgraceful."^[22]

Maybe this is why Clinton helped Yingluck sidestep some of the questions during the joint press conference.... as she may simpathize with a leader abusing their power to push through unjust pardons???

Edited November 21, 2011 by CWMcMurray

[lannarebirth]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

I'll add one.

v) they got a small whisper in their ears "try it and the tanks roll"

I think the whispers may have been more of a personal nature. Enough is enough! More people have died needlessly in these floods than all the Red / Yellow conflicts combined. All while this governments priorities and attention were clealy elsewhere.

[lannarebirth]

So the justice minister blows the pardon out of the water.

Isn't the justice minister a part of this government? If so, could someone please explain whether:

i) The government isn't able to do whatever it wants in getting Thaksin back just because it won an election.

ii) The justice minister missed an important meeting and was unaware of the government's plans.

iii) Everything that happens is all a part of a hugely detailed plan formulated a long time ago by Thaksin to make it look like it does.

iv) Something else - please explain.

Cheers for the reply!

I'll add one.

v) they got a small whisper in their ears "try it and the tanks roll"

worse than that probably. I hear people thinking

vi) "wipe out"

just listen around without being noticed.

It's the way Thais used to do things. I'm sure people ARE talking about it, but I wouldn't put too much credence in it having been an executable plan.