Can I Become A Thai Citizen?

[TheChiefJustice]

Sure there aren't that many, but did it ever occur to you that not many apply to begin with? That Thai citizenship is simply not high on the agenda for most western passport holders?

This is correct. My conversations with the Special Branch confirm that there are very few farangs who apply. On the day that I attended my interview at the Interior Ministry there were about 150 applicants there for the interview. Out of that number, I was one of only two farangs.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Your conclusion is flawed, Parent.

Few farangs obtain citizenship simply because few bother or feel the need to apply.

There is no conspiracy, and Asian applicants have no advantage over anyone else.

More self-pity and conspiracy theories.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Sure there aren't that many, but did it ever occur to you that not many apply to begin with? That Thai citizenship is simply not high on the agenda for most western passport holders?

This is correct. My conversations with the Special Branch confirm that there are very few farangs who apply. On the day that I attended my interview at the Interior Ministry there were about 150 applicants there for the interview. Out of that number, I was one of only two farangs.

Same with me. Nearly 200 applicants and fewer than five farangs the day I was processed. I stayed in touch with a couple of them. All of us were approved.

[AngryParent]

Sure there aren't that many, but did it ever occur to you that not many apply to begin with? That Thai citizenship is simply not high on the agenda for most western passport holders?

This is correct. My conversations with the Special Branch confirm that there are very few farangs who apply. On the day that I attended my interview at the Interior Ministry there were about 150 applicants there for the interview. Out of that number, I was one of only two farangs.

Taking your example, 2 farangs on that day and around 250 working days a year = around 500 farangs apply per year! However, only 6 get approved per year?

Even, if one assumed for every 5 working days that only 1 day per week is like your day, that still means 100 apply and only 6 get approved. Huge variance between those that apply and those that get it.

Good to hear you were one of the lucky ones however, I have lost a lot of hope.

[AngryParent]

And?

It is so easy, tell me how many farangs got citizenship last year! I really have no interest in the non-farangs that got citizenship (or the little new borns) - although I wish them true peace and happiness.

ZERO?

I just realized it. You are quoting Arkady (for the website) and using the common word for nationality (Thai) not other more appropriate words to use in a search related to farangs . Either you cannot read Thai (as a Thai Australian) or something is fishy! I can do it better! And That website is now flash based without the search engine! Your link does not work!

Smells fishy to me!

You can't seem to help but be insulting can you? Of course I can read Thai you arrogant gnat.

Anyway, Ms Karon Cox - an American would be one example this year.

http://www.ratchakit...554/D/108/7.PDF

The year before, a British lady, Miss Judith Sangpratum

http://www.ratchakit...553/D/142/1.PDF

Marina Evanova, from Russia, probably is happy she got her Thai citizenship

http://www.ratchakit...553/D/060/3.PDF

Angela Mary Prachanbutr, British, seems to have made it

http://www.ratchakit...553/D/060/2.PDF

If you think I'm showing too many women, then:

Timothy William Flikiss (sp?)

http://www.ratchakit...553/E/019/3.PDF

Mr Peter Carbress (sp?), the first on this list, would also care to disagree with you

http://www.ratchakit...3/E/093/123.PDF

The third bloke on this list (Garret Stip?) sounds 'farang'

http://www.ratchakit...53/E/096/21.PDF

I guess your post and Arkady's confirms I was right and you were wrong (again?).

The numbers of Western people that are granted Thai citizenship is so small that it indicates that farangs are granted as an "exception" rather than as part of some mainstream policy!

Hence, your advice, give up the good job, be a slave in an unstable job, just to get 40,000 Baht (so as to qualify) is not really good advice. As there is a high probability that even if the application is accepted, it may never get approved.

At the rate of citizenship approval, it will be decades before just the people who have posted on this thread on this forum get approved!

Which brings me back to my valid point that Thailand is not farang friendly and it is even less family friendly. I say this with sadness, as I am affected.

I am wrong about 'what' exactly? You stated that there is some sort of conspiracy not to grant 'farangs' citizenship based on a conversation with a upcountry cop. I've shown a half dozen randomly selected cases from 2010 and 2011 which were, from the site which you said didn't work.

Sure there aren't that many, but did it ever occur to you that not many apply to begin with? That Thai citizenship is simply not high on the agenda for most western passport holders?

You really aren't the sharpest tool in the shed are you?

Rather than continue to insult, check my response to the Chief Justice. Not that many may apply, but a lot, lot less (from those that apply) get approved!

[TheChiefJustice]

Sure there aren't that many, but did it ever occur to you that not many apply to begin with? That Thai citizenship is simply not high on the agenda for most western passport holders?

This is correct. My conversations with the Special Branch confirm that there are very few farangs who apply. On the day that I attended my interview at the Interior Ministry there were about 150 applicants there for the interview. Out of that number, I was one of only two farangs.

Taking your example, 2 farangs on that day and around 250 working days a year = around 500 farangs apply per year! However, only 6 get approved per year?

Even, if one assumed for every 5 working days that only 1 day per week is like your day, that still means 100 apply and only 6 get approved. Huge variance between those that apply and those that get it.

Good to hear you were one of the lucky ones however, I have lost a lot of hope.

Angry - The Ministry of Interior does not interview every day. Lol. They interview in batches, usually two or three times a year. 2x3 = 6. The End

[AngryParent]

Sure there aren't that many, but did it ever occur to you that not many apply to begin with? That Thai citizenship is simply not high on the agenda for most western passport holders?

This is correct. My conversations with the Special Branch confirm that there are very few farangs who apply. On the day that I attended my interview at the Interior Ministry there were about 150 applicants there for the interview. Out of that number, I was one of only two farangs.

Taking your example, 2 farangs on that day and around 250 working days a year = around 500 farangs apply per year! However, only 6 get approved per year?

Even, if one assumed for every 5 working days that only 1 day per week is like your day, that still means 100 apply and only 6 get approved. Huge variance between those that apply and those that get it.

Good to hear you were one of the lucky ones however, I have lost a lot of hope.

Angry - The Ministry of Interior does not interview every day. Lol. They interview in batches, usually two or three times a year. 2x3 = 6. The End

Not really, then as there are no figures of how many walk in to apply, one must just leave it at only a small number get approved. For all you or anybody knows, there could be 1 applicant per year or 1000!

If I might add the 6 that get approved per year is even less than the number of people that got approved for PR in 2004! Depressing statistics!

That is the end!

Edited December 2, 2011 by AngryParent

[TheChiefJustice]

Angry - I understand that you are worried about your family. However, I do not think that flogging this now very dead horse is doing you any good. We have learned from this thread several things. First, you are not currently eligible to apply for Thai citizenship. Secondly, according to the Special Branch as well as anecdotal evidence very few farang males apply for Thai citizenship. Thirdly, some farang males who apply for Thai citizenship get approved - but none of us know the percentage approved against those who apply. That's it in a nutshell really.

So, my dear man, my advice to you is to try to occupy your mind with happy thoughts. Take your wife and son for a little vacation this long-weekend and enjoy your time together. Go and see a movie. Read a good book. Have fun teaching your students. There are many things we can do to enjoy ourselves. Do whatever makes you happy. Don't give your attention to the things that make you upset and things will get better. A positive attitude is a wonderful gift.

[luckyluke]

So, after 277 posts I come to the sad conclusion that one can not become A thai citizen in 24 hours.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Sure there aren't that many, but did it ever occur to you that not many apply to begin with? That Thai citizenship is simply not high on the agenda for most western passport holders?

This is correct. My conversations with the Special Branch confirm that there are very few farangs who apply. On the day that I attended my interview at the Interior Ministry there were about 150 applicants there for the interview. Out of that number, I was one of only two farangs.

Taking your example, 2 farangs on that day and around 250 working days a year = around 500 farangs apply per year! However, only 6 get approved per year?

Even, if one assumed for every 5 working days that only 1 day per week is like your day, that still means 100 apply and only 6 get approved. Huge variance between those that apply and those that get it.

Good to hear you were one of the lucky ones however, I have lost a lot of hope.

I hope to God that logic isn't one of the courses you're teaching.

Out of the farangs I know who have applied in the past five years -- and the ones I kept up with from the interview day -- the approval rate is approximately...100%.

[samran]

Sure there aren't that many, but did it ever occur to you that not many apply to begin with? That Thai citizenship is simply not high on the agenda for most western passport holders?

This is correct. My conversations with the Special Branch confirm that there are very few farangs who apply. On the day that I attended my interview at the Interior Ministry there were about 150 applicants there for the interview. Out of that number, I was one of only two farangs.

Taking your example, 2 farangs on that day and around 250 working days a year = around 500 farangs apply per year! However, only 6 get approved per year?

Even, if one assumed for every 5 working days that only 1 day per week is like your day, that still means 100 apply and only 6 get approved. Huge variance between those that apply and those that get it.

Good to hear you were one of the lucky ones however, I have lost a lot of hope.

I hope to God that logic isn't one of the courses you're teaching.

Out of the farangs I know who have applied in the past five years -- and the ones I kept up with from the interview day -- the approval rate is approximately...100%.

Logic...ha!

he's the expert of course, despite the fact of having never walked into citizenship section of special branch's head office. In my case, I did notice a couple of tumbleweeds roll down the hallway on my last visit about 5 weeks ago, and had to call the officer away from the replay of the previous nights football match when I arrived. Overly worked bunch they are with all the farang's breaking down the doors to apply, obviously.

Edited December 2, 2011 by samran

[steveromagnino]

I presume the stats quoted above exclude the many 1/2 Thais who are eligible by other virtue of blood etc in acquiring Thai citizenship.

Those numbers are not large, but let me follow the story.

Angryparent wishes to become a Thai citizen; upon finding that Angryparent is not eligible at first glance, Angryparent concludes the system is somehow designed against Angryparent, but there may be some other group who are being given fasttrack citizenship.

Angryparent believes that there are no successful farang applicants and Angryparent asserts that NO ONE will show him the number of applicants/successful applicants:

"Show me even 6 farangs have been granted citizenship in the last 3 years - that was the evidence provided by your buddy that you defend!"

"It is so easy, tell me how many farangs got citizenship last year! I really have no interest in the non-farangs that got citizenship (or the little new borns) - although I wish them true peace and happiness. ZERO?"

Which is then answered to be Combined totals from 2005 to 2010 are:

496 women approved to adopt the Thai nationality of their husbands (average 82.7 p.a.)

604 naturalisations were approved(average 100.7 p.a.)

Farang sounding names accounted for 7% of naturalisations

So having now been shown proof that the number is NOT zero, and that there are certainly well more than 6 farangs in the last 3 years, the angle changes. Angryparent now asserts that while the number may be true, there might be some huge groundswell of applications, so it is a conversion rate issue.

"The numbers of Western people that are granted Thai citizenship is so small that it indicates that farangs are granted as an "exception"....there is a high probability that even if the application is accepted, it may never get approved."

And an earlier belief there is a conspiracy to somehow make farangs suffer in silence.

"Where I had the energy to try for what I thought was possible, I now realize it is not possible....It is a master plan! Foreigners keep chasing the carrot, and pay for the priviledge, and at the same time because they are living in hope of heaven (citizenship) they become quiet farangs for 5-10 years (or the application may never get approved)! So, all the pain and suffering they endure, they shut up for (in the hope of citizenship).

Angryparent attempts to claim that the number of farang applications is massive with a low conversion rate

"Even, if one assumed for every 5 working days that only 1 day per week is like your day, that still means 100 apply and only 6 get approved. Huge variance between those that apply and those that get it."

Somehow, gleaning from the minimal data, Angryparent asserts:

"Not that many may apply, but a lot, lot less (from those that apply) get approved!"

Which the Chief Justice corrects, commenting that the assumption of 1 day per week is in fact something like 3X per year, not 52; therefore no tiny conversion rate.

So..this brings us to today.

1. It is not difficult or impossible to become a Thai national, however there are certain criteria that some people cannot meet and a 3-5 year time frame possibly more if via the PR route

2. 40,000b for a foreigner...FYI...There are countless jobs that pay more than this. For tax purposes, for most countries, unless as a teacher, you have to earn more than this to even hold a work permit from many countries (IIUC). If you don't like it....get another type of job. Thais in Bangkok with a decent education and more than 3 years work experience would not consider this to be a high wage....Thailand, for better or for worse, is not interested in bringing people earning less than this, and that is a country's right to decide who they want and who they don't

3. There is no conspiracy favouring certain nations (although arguably there is a sexist element); however it is entirely possible that certain nationalities apply far more than other nationalities; at a guess proximity to Thailand and number of applicants would be correlated, as would size of country vs. number of applicants as would Thai speaking ability vs. number of applicants (China, India, Cambodia, and various other countries nearby teach Thai university courses, very few western countries that I know of do - Australia being one)

4. the number of applicants remains low, and anecdotal evidence suggests that the people who are not eligible are not encouraged to apply; therefore anecdotally there appears to be no conspiracy regarding conversion rates (i.e. there are not millions of people applying for 100 spots

5. Samran most certainly can speak, read and write Thai, I can personally attest to that....he's Thai. Now while he may not sport the trendy educated abroad "oh i forgot what's the Thai word for sustainable competitive advantage, I know I'll just say in english with a Thai accent" affectation, he certainly has no reason to give you anything personal advice and honest experience - there is not some almighty conspiracy where he is working for the government and surreptitiously scooping 20% commissions on all those 5,000b applications fees from would be Thai citizens applying as a result of this thread in Thai visa. Hell, the amount of time posting here converted to a monthly wage...his earnings power based on 1,000b if 1 person applies would be a pitance....perhaps a mere 40,000b or less

I wish you the best of luck, and can only recap the story of a friend of my who migrated from Canada to a new country gave me as he spent 4 years jumping through hoops to get PR, and from there citizenship. As a former tradesman, at that time, his wife was highly sought after, him less so (due to education and age). At that time, the main way in was money; both being married twice, they weren't getting in on net worth alone. So he spent his evenings, studying for the first time in 20+ years, got a degree; he worked hard and proved that he was paying taxes; he contributed to the community, coaching IIRC ice hockey. He did this because for him, he didn't want to live in Canada, he wanted to live in a new country.

If it matters...I am sure you can find a way. Otherwise, this argument brings back happy memories where Samran and I went BAF and forth with an Italian who was stubborn, convinced the world was against him and insisted that Thai laws should be held to the standard of Italy immigration.

[AngryParent]

Angry - I understand that you are worried about your family. However, I do not think that flogging this now very dead horse is doing you any good. We have learned from this thread several things. First, you are not currently eligible to apply for Thai citizenship. Secondly, according to the Special Branch as well as anecdotal evidence very few farang males apply for Thai citizenship. Thirdly, some farang males who apply for Thai citizenship get approved - but none of us know the percentage approved against those who apply. That's it in a nutshell really.

So, my dear man, my advice to you is to try to occupy your mind with happy thoughts. Take your wife and son for a little vacation this long-weekend and enjoy your time together. Go and see a movie. Read a good book. Have fun teaching your students. There are many things we can do to enjoy ourselves. Do whatever makes you happy. Don't give your attention to the things that make you upset and things will get better. A positive attitude is a wonderful gift.

Thank you for your kind words.

[Time Traveller]

Good summary by steveromagnino, can we delete the previous 11 pages?

Anyway, even if Angryparent is correct, I can not understand why he has a problem with low number of farang applications? Most immigration to any country is because of either (1) family connections (more than 25% of Thai's are of Chinese Ancestry) or (2) from neighboring countries (again favoring the large numbers of Chinese, but also Lao and persons living in Thai but are stateless) or (3) through economic migration of people from low income countries to higher income countries. All 3 of these most common reasons for immigration give reason to expect large numbers of Chinese and applicants from places near Thailand. Why is this a surprise that farang applicants are only a small percentage of total citizenships awarded?

Edited December 2, 2011 by Time Traveller

[beechguy]

Thailand gives 24 hours to leave (+/- and not much more +).

Not if you pay for the 7 day extension.....

or the 60 day extension if you bring your wife along...

Not to mention it's easy enough to go to Laos and get a one year multi-entry "O" Visa for being married and no financial information required. It may not work for the citizenship qualification, but that's good for 15 months to stay with family if used properly with border runs.

http://www.thaivisa....06#entry4783406 or http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473258-loas-1-year-visa/page__p__4473330#entry4473330

If a guy is going to whine and bitch about the system, I wish he would learn something about it.

Edited December 2, 2011 by beechguy

[tombkk]

Oh i do wish the UK had laws like Thailand that prevented every Mohammed, Leroy and Patel becoming British citizens........Thailand may be or is laughable in some respects but just think how much better the UK would be doing immigration things the Thai way

Perhaps Thailand can import the UK system of making many tourists getting overpriced visas before they travel. The Brits like a good queue so I am sure that the idea of lining up at 6am to submit a tourist visa application with oodles of documentation which can then be rejected as easily as not.

Would be good at preventing visa running.

I think the idea has merit!

And then tit for tat.

End result, all those dual national Thais lose British citizenship, have to go back to Thailand and work. All those properties owned in the West (that were purchased under non-zenophobic laws) need to be sold within 1 year. Thais cannot work in prohibitted jobs in England - leaving them completely unable to work and live there. Restrictions on foreign money repatriation - all that money amassed in the UK can only stay in the UK. All Thais now living in the UK are on a tourist visa and have 30 days to leave. As this is not enough time to go to court and as a tourist they have ZERO legal rights, all is lost for all those Thais that do not suffer like farangs (with a Thai family) do in Thailand.

Get the point?

Case closed. Zenophobic off topic posts be it from whichever side should be started under a different topic.

Just picking a random post of yours to reply.

The reason you don't qualify for Thai citizenship is your negative attitude, I'd say. As with all goals in life, we can achieve them if we really want to, and if we try to find a way to succeed, rather than finding reasons why we won't.

Reality check: Others have succeeded, why wouldn't you? If your salary is the only reason, go get additional education so you'll qualify for better salaries. In fact, many of the Thai staff in my company earn more than THB 40,000 per month. If you want to be a teacher, I know a few who make THB 70,000 a month, both Thais and farangs. That's in tertiary education though, which might require you to get additional qualifications, which will be no problem if you really want to support your family.

And certainly, your family won't die of you lose your job. Not even if you choose to abandon them. Saying something like that just makes the reader on this forum feel that you are pathetic. Please get real.

[tombkk]

Please note that Thailand is a tourist country. If Thailand allows foreigners a citizenship, All foreigners will become Thai citizens and so in that case what will happen to the local poor Thai citizens. The policies here are to protect the local citizens and only allow citizenship to those who have enough resources to pay Thai government a tax and can earn revenue for Thai government and Thai people to strengthen Thai economy.

That's a remarkable statement.

Indeed! And idiotic beyond belief.

Personally, I do not see any reason for a foreigner to obtain Thai citizenship.

Which is another remarkable statement, as obviously, quite a number of foreigners choose to apply every year.

[AngryParent]

Logic...ha!

he's the expert of course, despite the fact of having never walked into citizenship section of special branch's head office. In my case, I did notice a couple of tumbleweeds roll down the hallway on my last visit about 5 weeks ago, and had to call the officer away from the replay of the previous nights football match when I arrived. Overly worked bunch they are with all the farang's breaking down the doors to apply, obviously.

No, you are the expert??? You only were completely wrong when you said the minimum salary was 15,000. And you sure made me feel like you were the expert when you failed to even mention the basic requirements e.g. house registration and many other matters.

You only had your wife take part in this and you also say you were there 5 weeks back? Gee, for somebody that experienced, I knew more than you by the middle of this thread!

I am sure others believe who you claim to be. Forgive me if I think this persona sounds like somebody living in a condo in Pattaya and acting like a Thai citizen with much clout and knowledge.

[AngryParent]

Good summary by steveromagnino, can we delete the previous 11 pages?

Anyway, even if Angryparent is correct, I can not understand why he has a problem with low number of farang applications? Most immigration to any country is because of either (1) family connections (more than 25% of Thai's are of Chinese Ancestry) or (2) from neighboring countries (again favoring the large numbers of Chinese, but also Lao and persons living in Thai but are stateless) or (3) through economic migration of people from low income countries to higher income countries. All 3 of these most common reasons for immigration give reason to expect large numbers of Chinese and applicants from places near Thailand. Why is this a surprise that farang applicants are only a small percentage of total citizenships awarded?

How would I end this thread that I started?

Well, I knew a bit, but not that much when I started and the first post was the kind request for information. Many were a bit positve, many also were very rude and insulted me and my family, my work and a lot more that was not requested.

I found that those who claimed to have gone through this, had got it etc lacked a lot of knowledge that I had gained by speaking to real government employees and many Thais outside the forum. I also did gain a lot of knowledge from the forum, but it mainly started with somebody giving me the phone number of the department responsible. But it took a lot of posts to just get to that point (and in light of many who claim citizenship etc. surely the website of Special Branch - which I posted! - and other first steps should have been provided within the first few posts!

It appeared that those who claimed to be the wisest and most knowledgable were just regurgitating what most of the PR forums from a decade back stated i.e. not really firsthand or experienced or knowledgable posts. And this was more apparent as the thread got longer, as nothing new was brought to the table. However, after my call to SB, those that claimed to have done it suddenly started to acknowledge the significant differences between PR and citizenship and esp. in relation to the basic application system. However, most of the data was brought by myself to the table first and only then the "wise" babbled a bit about it.

The lofty claims regarding this being a fair and achievable procedure, by the "wise" hit a major hurdle at the end when it was discovered (mainly thanks to me having to prod and push) that the number of male Westerners that are granted citizenship is 6 per year. Some may take comfort in this, however, I look at it in the persepective that more were approved for PR status in 2004 than Citizenship in 2010. And with a very expensive, complicated, and lottery system for PR many applied - I would be surprised if a lot, lot more did not apply for citizenship (esp. as the regulations are less) but, it appears that a lot less get approved.

With this, I will end by saying, maybe one day I will apply for Thai citizenship, but with the evidence in this thread, donkeys chasing carrots spring to mind! And I would like to once again say thanks to only 2 people: 1 Arkady (for posting data without a single critical comment regarding my life or my family) and 2 The Cheif Justice for being postive and kind.

[endure]

What's really remarkable about this thread is that there are good people who insist on trying to help the OP even as he insults them and refuses to be helped. One question for the OP:

Have you been to Special Branch in Bangkok yet? If the answer is no then all the rest of your posts are totally irrelevant.

[Maestro]

Ok, this has gone far enough. There have been too many personal attacks in recent posts and I can't imagine anything useful and constructive that has not already been said so far.

Topic closed. If and when the OP goes for a personal meeting with officials at the Special Branch headquarters he should feel free to click on the REPORT button below this post and suggest that the topic be reopened so that he may post the result of his meeting.