What Is Reasonable Living Together?

[foolforlove]

So... I live here in Bangkok. I met a guy and we became friends. For the first couple months, we hung out together and would go to movies and so forth.

I would always pay. Often we would spend time working on his English (which is not good) or he teaches me things in Thai (which I am studying). Since he works six days a week, we would see each other on his one day off.

He works a legitimate job at a restaurant. Making very little of course. Lives in an apartment with some siblings and is from upcountry.

I started out believing he was straight. But over time, he became more affectionate. And when I asked Thai gay friends about things he said or did, they invariably said "no straight thai guy would do/say that!". And he clearly knows I am gay.

When he had to work the night of Loy Khatrong, he apoligized he could not go with me. I told him I would go with a friend and he looked either worried or jealous. Until I explained it was a farang female friend from school.

So I tried asking in various ways if he likes guys or girls. Always getting answers I did not understand. Usually because he answered in English, not his forte, and the sentence was confusing and ambigious in English. I know when we are in public (at the mall or what have you), he does tend to look at women.

Sometimes he asks for things, usually very reasonable things. Like the zipper broke on his pants for work and we went somewhere and got a new pair for 200 baht.

Sometimes he takes me to out of the way places like an Isan music bar or a karaoke club. We will stay a couple hours and the bill for the night can be 500-1000 baht. Maybe a little expensive but not unreasonable for what we ordered. I think sometimes I am the only farang these places have ever seen. Customers there treat me like a celebrity, encourage me to dance and love to chat with me. He seems to beam and love to show me off as his farang friend.

I know how little money he makes and he says how his one priority in life is to send money home to his parents. He is the oldest son and the second oldest child.

Sometimes he asks if I can help him come to my home country so he could find work to send more money home.

When he tells me is hungry, I give him a little pocket money for a meal (100 baht)... and more recently, once a week or so 500 or 1000 baht.

When we are out together, he seems generous with his friends - for example giving them 100 baht (if the friend is up singing at the music bar and others are giving them tips). Sometimes he offers to pay for simple things (taxis, a drink, etc). And occasionally he gives me small gifts: tshirt or something like that.

On a recent night out, he did introduce me to a friend (who was pretty handsome) as his "younger brother" (not literally). My gaydar went off and the guy seemed very keen on getting my phone number and so forth. I thought at one point he was trying to introduce me to a nice gay guy because he was not interested in me. If this was the story, I didn't take the bait (for a couple reasons...).

I suggested that in a few months maybe we could share a studio apartment. That he could live with me and not pay rent. And we would each help each other with the others language. He seemed interested in this. And now he does stay at my house occasionally just sleeping in the same bed and pretty affectionate (but nothing else going on!).

He did say recently when I asked that he likes both men and women equally (I guess his way of saying bisexual). This was the first time I got a clear answer that made sense. But he also says he thinks he would like to get married someday. He is in his mid-20's. I would say he is ruggedly handsome and definitly not a pretty face/pretty boy.

I told him recently I am starting to have feelings for him. Which I think surprised him. Maybe shocked him. Though he seemed to say that "feen" was possible once we shared the apartment. I have to go away to work for a couple months and then come back to stay for a year. When I come back is when we would get the apartment.

I know that although for my home country I am not rich, for here I am. And I certainly have more money than he has ever seen. I think he (now) has (more) expectations that I will be generous - probably in the same way he is generous with others. Generous as far as going to places like the music bar and also generous in what I might help him out with weekly.

So what am I asking?

Does it really seem possible he is interested in guys - or is he just pretending that for my benefit? If he is interested in guys, he is very closeted about that aspect of himself. And certainly has a seemingly non-existent sex drive or very very shy.

Have I created a money boy? Or have I just discovered a low maintenance money boy? :-)

Even if its strictly a roommate (business) arrangement, I am still interested in having him share my home for the benefit of practicing Thai and learning about Thailand etc etc. There is only so much you can learn in a classroom. And he seems genuinely kind and honest. How is this best arranged? Should we both sign the lease for the apartment? I assume the security deposit would come 100% from me. I am hoping that with me paying the rent he will be more financially secure with his job earnings and I will be looked to less as providing ad hoc cash. What pitfalls and issues are here? Both legally (as far as the apt lease/deposit) and culturally about expectations for each other?

Thanks!

[ChrisP]

I think you're looking for a way to justify what's going on inside you.. attraction/lust/love..

It sounds like he is like many Thai guys in that their sexuality is fluid.. but they will eventually be leaned on by their family to come down on the str8 side. And, I supect he may be MORE str8 than gay.

Yes, you have opened his eyes.. and I think created a low-maintainance MB.. but don't expect it to STAY low-money... the expctations will rise over time. Thai's are excellent at "killing the goose that laid the golden egg".. their greed often gets in the way.

Thais are generous.. in many ways. With money, even if it's their last 10baht, they will give it to someone else with no qualms.

Why did you offer him to share a place without any rent..? Surely the best way is for him to be responsible and pay a contribution of his earnings towards the rent, and you pay the rest. You are just promoting the "I have money and will take care of you" status..

Yes, he will expect you to go with him to see his family.. and expect you to provide money so that he can send back to them - to give him good face, and to prove he is helping them too - that's his duty and obligation in Thai society.

The lease arrangement is like any other country.. BUT you can bet your life the manager/office will be looking to you - not him.

My bf and I share the rent... but the office knows they will get paid (because I'm there) and consequently we don't get a hard time or charges if it's a bit late...! They just say ok.. whenever....

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Unless ambiguity and distance are what you're into, you can do a lot better. There must be thousands of young, cute, genuinely gay men of whatever type you like who would jump at the chance to be treated the way you're treating this guy, *plus* actually want to sleep with you. I think you already know what you need to about this fellow's sexuality, and you're just trying to push yourself to make a change. It won't help that if you do try to make a change this guy will no doubt do everything he can to sabotage your efforts. Perhaps the best thing you could do is find a new partner- who *doesn't* know him- who will do what *he* can to get rid of that guy.

However, I have learned from long experience that successful relationships are not what everyone is looking for. Some people will strive, time after time, to date people who are disagreeable, immature, greedy, or not even sexually attracted to them- and it's hard to say this without sounding sarcastic or pejorative, but if that's what works for them then that's what they should do. It's when they're consciously unhappy with this kind of pattern that they should start examining what draws them to such people; reflection and understanding can lead to becoming free.

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

Some people will strive, time after time, to date people who are disagreeable, immature, greedy, or not even sexually attracted to them...... It's when they're consciously unhappy with this kind of pattern that they should start examining what draws them to such people; reflection and understanding can lead to becoming free.

Ohhh yes..! been there - done that - and had therapy for it too..!

I think - I HOPE - I've learned to make better choices now - although I know I don't go for the "safe bet / quiet guy" either... A little excitement HAS to be there for me..

ChrisP

[foolforlove]

IJWT and ChrisP.

Thank you for your comments.

It gives me some things to consider.

I had a long term relationship end about 3 years ago. And so when I came to Thailand about 4 months ago, I was not looking for anything romantic.

This is sort of how I got connected with this guy. I wanted male companionship without sex or anything like that. Since I thought he was straight, I thought I had a way to spend uncomplicated time with someone. And we have similar tastes in music and enjoy sports and so forth. This is the kind of guy you could go ride your mountain bikes together through the mud and enjoy getting all muddy together. That's the kind of guy I like. It seems not as common anywhere I have lived. I usually avoid bars and clubs because I don't enjoy them and I think guys with the kind of interests/way of life that I have are not to be found there (of course there are always exceptions but I speak in percentages/generalities). Maybe if I could find the bar the gay muay thai fighters go to then I would be set?

I also was looking for someone to speak Thai with. His ability in English and mine in Thai are close to each other. So this makes us well matched. Most of the gay guys I have met in Thailand have mastered so much English that it ceases making sense and is just frustrating (for them) to talk to me in Thai.

Sometimes its hard for me to not give reasonable doubt that I do not understand enough about a culture and so forth. What I mean is its easy for me to look at the signs that he is interested in me romantically positively -- and think that the signs he is not interested I might be judging too harshly. We were already spending time together, it wasn't necessary to tell me how much he missed me when I had to go away for a week or so. Or to be affectionate with me. Stuff like that.

As for the rent issue... I did not spell out all the details here but the reason for free rent was that I expected him to help me with some things I need to get done (not sex!) and I saw this as sort of his "salary".

I think you raise a good point about self-reflection and understanding. Reflecting on it now, I think I am still "gun shy" from my past. And that if I was dating any gay guy, they would have emotional demands on me and be pushing the speed of the relationship. With this guy, its never going to go any emotionally faster than I want and perhaps slower than I want. So this feeds into me feeling safe from being hurt again/more.

[ChrisP]

Maybe if I could find the bar the gay muay thai fighters go to then I would be set?

I'm sure if you learn enough Thai you can ask someone..!

I wanted male companionship without sex or anything like that. Since I thought he was straight, I thought I had a way to spend uncomplicated time with someone. And we have similar tastes in music and enjoy sports and so forth. This is the kind of guy you could go ride your mountain bikes together through the mud and enjoy getting all muddy together. That's the kind of guy I like.

Ok, this sounds like a best friend.

I told him recently I am starting to have feelings for him.

This doesn't.

Does it really seem possible he is interested in guys - or is he just pretending that for my benefit? If he is interested in guys, he is very closeted about that aspect of himself. And certainly has a seemingly non-existent sex drive or very very shy.

I suspect he's pretending an interest in guys.. (and, btw, if you're loking for a Thai best friend, why do you care..?) And if he's from a small village, he may be very shy about sex. Thai's have an amazing ability to compartmentalize.. just because they have "Hooker Bars and Massage Parlours" - for Thais - doesn't mean they all approve of it.

Try and get hold of a copy of "Thailand Fever".. it's about western/thai relationships, it's written in both languages, so that both get the same story - and explains the dynamics well.

You can also check out this Topic here too...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46251

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

foolforlove,

You have remarkable self-awareness, which will help you out a lot in this or any other country.

Yeah, he sounds like a pretty "safe" relationship! The trick is not to let this be something that becomes a permanent stand-in for everything you need (i.e., sex). I think if you at least start getting laid outside your friendship with him, you may find that your *real* feelings for him get put into perspective (i.e., when there is no need for him to fulfill a sexual role) and you'll be in a better position to judge what his real value is to you. I would advise some quality no-strings-attached, no-relationship-sought sex of some kind as quickly as possible!

"Steven"

[foolforlove]

ChrisP and IJWT.

Thanks again.

ChrisP: sorry for the confusion on the "best friend" versus "more than friend" thing. What I was trying to say is that type of guy (mountain bike muddy) is the kind of guy I want to be around either as best friend or romantically.

And that when I met this str8(?) guy, I thought I had found someone with similar interests. Someone who would be a good male best friend. I did not think I would develop romantic feelings for him because he wouldn't be giving me any emotional feedback to cause that to happen.

Then after like 6 weeks, he started saying things like "khitung khun" when he didnt see me, giving me a wallet photo, and giving me backrubs and hugs and so forth.

At first I thought "oh this is just friendly thai guy. how nice and sweet. amazing thailand yada yada.".

In a funny twist, I plagarized something this guy said to me in thai and said it to one of my thai aquaintances at the gym. (always trying to expand what I can say in thai y'know). The guy gave me this wierd look and said "what? are you gay?!!".

So then I started checking out things said/done with several thai gay friends and they were all like "whoa! he is NOT str8! no thai str8 guy would say or do that! not only not str8 but interested in you". one of them might even have muttered that i am blind and clueless. j/k.

So this is how we started down this slippery slope... where my attention got caught.... and my feelings invoked.

I know some other thai coworkers of his both male and female, who all speak English much better than him. I've alternately heard them say he is str8 or bisexual on different occasions. Sometimes the same person switching answers from one occasion to the next. I've pretty much concluded they really don't know, he doesn't really tell them, or I should forget my western-fixed labelized notions of sexuality for Thailand. Probably "D" - 'all of the above'.

And yes he is from a very small village so, like you said, I think he is shy about sex. See its stuff like that where I start thinking "yeah there are interpretations of the scenario that say I could have just a nice shy bisexual guy, somewhat closested, on my hands who is genuinely interested in me".

All along I've really enjoyed his friendship. If I think back over the last several months, the times we are together are some of my happiest times in Thailand. Going to Isan Music Bar... karaoke... we both discovered we wanted to get our first tattoo so we went and did that together (that was an experience!).

As I think you have alluded to, he could be just pretending to like guys. And its entirely possible he has done some of these "gay" things out of some sort of misguided idea of friendship and that he is being true friend and sacracficing for me. I am not a mind reader.....unfortunately.

If he wants to be with me romantically, I guess its just wait and see? I don't see another option for ferreting out the truth.

I should just hold back and let him come closer.

Argh. He has me as a friend and nothing extra needs to be done.

No pretending needed......

I will check out that link and the Thailand Fever book.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd just like to advise more specifically that you don't start living with this guy. It will only aggravate the ambiguous aspects of your relationship and keep it in the foreground; furthermore if you meet any normal gay guy later for a relationship you're going to have a difficult job either explaining him or kicking him out.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

"Steven"