The Riddle Of Epicurus

[thaibebop]

Your knowledge is likely to be greater than mine, but my understanding is that Lucifer (the light-carrier) was one of the 4 archangels, along with Michael, Gabriel and another

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

His name was Ariel, I seem to remember.

Also, bear in mind that the bible is not the sole repository of Christian teaching; indeed, much of the Old Testament is considered allegorical and should not be thought to be an absolute truth. (Although creationists, fundamentalists and Jews believe different, which is fine but not what I believe).

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Wasn't Uriel?

[suegha]

so many dictrines are opposed to what the bible actually says, ie satan being a fallen angel, hel_l being a place of eternal torment, heaven going at death, God being more than one - to mention but a few

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Your knowledge is likely to be greater than mine, but my understanding is that Lucifer (the light-carrier) was one of the 4 archangels, along with Michael, Gabriel and another (sorry, I'm at work and don't have access to books, references etc at present). He thought he was as powerful as God, challenged him and got the elbow. Satan is a far later term, I think found only in the New Testament.

As regards the differing doctrines - I don't know which ones you are referring to, but the Holy Trinity, heaven/he11 etc are cornerstones of Christianity and as such, are non-negotiable.

I'll dig out a couple of books later and post further.

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No, the trinity is not found anywhere in the bible, heaven going is not found anywhere in the bible and heither is he11 going. As for them being the corner stones of Christianity... Let's consider a few things. Firstly, God is only one. Jesus is the son of God, the saviour and redeemer, he came to save mankind, and will return to the earth to reign in righteousness. Linked to this, if we believe the plain bible message about Jesus return to the earth, we then can be with him after ressurection from the dead, not in heaven but on the earth. The references to he11 in the bible all refer to the grave - so we all go to hel_l! Our only hope is resurrection and judgement. I can back all of this up with scripture, however, the post would just be too long. If anyone is interested in the detail, please let me know.

Also check the references to Lucifer to see who it actually refers to. Satan is found 19 times in the OT and means adversary, and 36 times in the NT and means adversary or false accuser. Hence the Satans mentioned in the bible can and refer to people who were adversaries to God. I don't want to repeat myself but all this can be easily found by reading the bible for yourself. Please don't take my (or anyone elses) word for it.

ps Ariel is another name for Jerusalem and also a Jewish leader in the captivity.

Edited November 25, 2005 by suegha

[thaibebop]

so many dictrines are opposed to what the bible actually says, ie satan being a fallen angel, hel_l being a place of eternal torment, heaven going at death, God being more than one - to mention but a few

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your knowledge is likely to be greater than mine, but my understanding is that Lucifer (the light-carrier) was one of the 4 archangels, along with Michael, Gabriel and another (sorry, I'm at work and don't have access to books, references etc at present). He thought he was as powerful as God, challenged him and got the elbow. Satan is a far later term, I think found only in the New Testament.

As regards the differing doctrines - I don't know which ones you are referring to, but the Holy Trinity, heaven/he11 etc are cornerstones of Christianity and as such, are non-negotiable.

I'll dig out a couple of books later and post further.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, the trinity is not found anywhere in the bible, heaven going is not found anywhere in the bible and heither is he11 going. As for them being the corner stones of Christianity... Let's consider a few things. Firstly, God is only one. Jesus is the son of God, the saviour and redeemer, he came to save mankind, and will return to the earth to reign in righteousness. Linked to this, if we believe the plain bible message about Jesus return to the earth, we then can be with him after ressurection from the dead, not in heaven but on the earth. The references to he11 in the bible all refer to the grave - so we all go to hel_l! Our only hope is resurrection and judgement. I can back all of this up with scripture, however, the post would just be too long. If anyone is interested in the detail, please let me know.

Also check the references to Lucifer to see who it actually refers to. Satan is found 19 times in the OT and means adversary, and 36 times in the NT and means adversary or false accuser. Hence the Satans mentioned in the bible can and refer to people who were adversaries to God. I don't want to repeat myself but all this can be easily found by reading the bible for yourself. Please don't take my (or anyone elses) word for it.

ps Ariel is another name for Jerusalem and also a Jewish leader in the captivity.

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The Trinity was somethign that was hotly debated in the early church and many different groups had different views of it, like the Arian belief, whivh was quite a larger movement. The council of Nicaea took place and through this meeting the church decided what the relationship between God and Chirt was. It was here that the trinity was born. They wanted this because if Jesus wasn't God, then another human could claim divinity. The church was not well organizned and many groups were doing their own things. The Arians believed that Jesus was separate from God, so they were label heretics and hunted down. The idea behind supporting the idea of the trinity was to unify the church and the churches power.

[Gary A]

The TRUTH was implanted somewhere in a corner of your mind when you were born. It is up to you whether or not you want to accept that. Unfortunately people are easily led and listen to lunatics who interpret fairy tale books to suit their own purposes. The purposes are normally power and wealth and usually both. How and why people choose to kill each other because of a book confuses me to no end. Worship your God as you see fit but punish no one who chooses to think differently than you do. Only weak people need a book for a crutch.

[suegha]

Only weak people need a book for a crutch.

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I disagree with this comment - the bible to me is not a crutch! It is the word of God. I believe He is speaking to us and as such I want to know what he has to say. You could have said 'organised religion' is a crutch and we could have had a different debate.

Some people believe what their organisation says without any form of questioning. This is a good point to make regarding the Council of Nicaea, this occured in 325 AD, that's 300 after the advent of Jesus! What were they believing in the interim?

What has a council in Nicaea 300 years after Christ got to do with my Christian faith? I'll believe what the bible tells me.

[Gary A]

Only weak people need a book for a crutch.

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I disagree with this comment - the bible to me is not a crutch! It is the word of God. I believe He is speaking to us and as such I want to know what he has to say. You could have said 'organised religion' is a crutch and we could have had a different debate.

Some people believe what their organisation says without any form of questioning. This is a good point to make regarding the Council of Nicaea, this occured in 325 AD, that's 300 after the advent of Jesus! What were they believing in the interim?

What has a council in Nicaea 300 years after Christ got to do with my Christian faith? I'll believe what the bible tells me.

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I'm sure the muslims feel the same about their book. Who's right?

[thaibebop]

Only weak people need a book for a crutch.

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I disagree with this comment - the bible to me is not a crutch! It is the word of God. I believe He is speaking to us and as such I want to know what he has to say. You could have said 'organised religion' is a crutch and we could have had a different debate.

Some people believe what their organisation says without any form of questioning. This is a good point to make regarding the Council of Nicaea, this occured in 325 AD, that's 300 after the advent of Jesus! What were they believing in the interim?

It depends on what group you followed and there were many. Arians believed that Jesus and God were two separte things, for example. You also had groups like Cathars who believed that all things made by man were bad and that you should have sex at all becuase you will just bring another person in this world to suffer.

What has a council in Nicaea 300 years after Christ got to do with my Christian faith? I'll believe what the bible tells me.

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It has alot to do with modren Chirstianity. Jesus never left behind a frame work for Chirstians to follow in regards to the organization of the church or for that matter long term society. For quite a few hundred years Chirstians truely believed, and some still do, that Jesus's second coming was gonna happen tomorrow. So, they didn't concern themselves with organization. It wasn't until the religion was accpected by Constantine and thus Roman upper classes that the church wanted some more perment rules for the long run. Debates were carried out ,using the Bible, to determine what rules would be close to what was written in the Bible. At this time the western half of Europe wanted the unity the the eastern half was enjoying, so they organized the church and part of doing that was deciding on what the relationship between God and Jesus really was, also such issues as what date should Easter be celebrated, and Chirstmas. All groups who went against what was decided in this council were branded heretics and the church set out to destroy them.

The funny thing here is that many Chirstians keep saying that they will believe in the Bible but it has been changed to suit the needs on the church as well, and many of the practices Chirstians hold dear were things that were decided not by God but the church. Of Course the Protestant Reformation occured because of the changes that the orginal church had made. Debating such issues was common place as long as you had protection. Martin Luther was protected by the German princes that's why he got away with what he did. His church reform reorganized the whole religion once again creating practices that were decided on by man not God. You should Saint Augustine's City Of God as well as Saint Thomas Aquinas On Politics And Ethics. These books show what was being debated at the time and how Chirstians were trying to make decisions that the Bible didn't really cover.

[AlexLah]

Long time ago gods of the land, sea, air you name it came together.

They agreed that there were god's of everything so now they needed to make a god of the god's.

OK, the god's agreed, but where will we hide it.

Another god said:Let us put it in the deepest ocean, humans will never reach that.

No, another god said, one day they will and find god, let us put it at the highest mountain, humans will never get there.

Another god said: No, One day humans will reach the highest mountain.

Another god then stood up and said: Let us put it inside the human being itself, they will never search there.....

Kind regards,

Alex

[tripperj]

YES, I believe in God because I can fathom no other logical explanation where all this came from. The "Big Bang"? Where did that come from?

That said I do NOT believe in organized religion nor do I believe in the fairy tale books that some people regard as the sacred truth. My God wrote no books nor did he tell mentally unbalanced people to write any for him. Organized religion is the worst threat that the world has ever faced. Radicals are dangerous and that has been proven by the crusades of old and the muslims of today. Every man was born with a conscience (I think?) and if you treat people as you would like to be treated it would be a fine world to live in.

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The big bang happened because the "Dean" stuck his hands inside our universe and wiggeled his fingers.

[tripperj]

But on a more serious note. I find this kind of dabte fasinating. I was brought up a devote cathloic, and when i became a teen ager i became a devote athiest. I was extremly close minded and thought of religon as the realm of the week minded and foolish. But when my own life hit difficult times i was faced with a spritual solution the required me to open my mind. I am so glad i did.

Today i do not belong to any religon but have a personal contact with God. It is a feeling that my intelect can not explain or rationalise. If i think about it and try and figure it out in my head i always come up with the same conclution. That it's all &lt;deleted&gt; and of course theres no god. But when i use faith instead on my intelect, it works i can feel it, there is something/one there from whom i draw strenght to live and coupe with my life as it is, rather than striving to consantly control and minipulate it.

Now, as i say i don't understand this at all, perhaps the belief in the spritual is hard wired into our brains and its all just evolutions solution self awear intelect, in that if your living in a cave and you are self awear, ur life consistce of scrapping up a living and avoiding being eaten by some beasty and then you just die, why go through all the hard sh1t just kill ur self and cut out the middle man (or being stuck in a sh1ty office with a monkey on ur back). But if you've a belief in the spritual "other" world then this is not all there is, it's worth going on. Or maybe there really is a spritual aspect to our universe, i just don't know. But i do know opening my mind to these possiblities has im proved the quality of my life.

So imho the fact that sprituality does not stand up to rational scurtiny is the presice reason that it appeals to me. I know that much of it seems BS and fairy tales to my rational mind but i also know that if feels real and really improves my quatliy of life (and those around me!!!!), So God feels real but defy's all atemps to be explained rationaly. That is the point of faith.

Edited November 27, 2005 by tripperj

[Ice Maiden]

I have strong faith in God and I am a Christian.

I wasn't always a Christian or brought up that way with it forced down my neck. During school I became an Athiest and couldn't possibly understand why religion exsisted.

My quote was:

"Religion is a crutch for weak people"

But then during college I just changed and that is an experience I can not explain with words it is something one must experience to feel the way I did, an amazing uplift.

Some people are shocked when I tell them I am a Christian and expect me to be a person who goes to Church every Sunday and can quote the Bible word for word. They also expect a lot of things but I believe you don't need those things to be a Christian. I believe all you need is faith deep down

It is a daily struggle really because keping faith always is. I'm surrounded by people that don't believe and judge me for being who I am. Sometimes my faith will be weak but I will always believe.

[suegha]

This certainly is a facinating bebate - I'm so glad nobody's getting nasty, after all we are all entitled to our views.

Regarding faith, yes it's essential! However, the most important Christian attribute is 'Love'. If you have a bible read 1 Cor 13.

Re the point about early Christians expecting the return of Jesus to be tomorrow, well, Christians should still be expecting it, today!

It's also true, as so many people alluded, that 'organised' Christianity has ruined so much of what was pure and unadulterated. Jesus never had any time for man made institutions or traditions. I cannot find one positive reference to either. As many have said, the large institutions were driven by power and influence, that speaks for itself!

Constantine did indeed see the early church as a means to an end, hence the adoption of Christianity as a 'state religion'. It had to make several changes to the original purity to 'include' more views eg, Christmas and Easter. They were never intended to be Christian festivals.

Christianity is a relatively simple religion, the closing verse of Acts speaks of how Paul... "Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ." If we pursue these things all else will fall into place. The return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God are those things that we should really focus on.

[Gary A]

I was born and raised catholic. I was even an alter boy. Even at a young age I was offended by the discrimination the catholics showed towards the VERY few non-catholics in our small community. The other thing was that I was appalled by the huge amount of money spent maintaining a monstrosity called the church. It has twin towers well over 100 feet high. Why is it necessary to put money in such a building? When I went into the service I was a scrappy young man and fighting was actually a hobby. A jewish boy slept in a rack near my rack. We were jammed three high in a relatively small place. At first I ignored the other guys picking on him but the more I thought about it the more it upset me. I had no idea that he was jewish until one day I jumped out of my rack and challenged the guys who were picking on him. Of course it was no fun to pick on someone who stands up for himself. They decided I was a jew lover. I told them that from now on they would have to go through me to pick on the skinny little jew. It is a person's right to worship as they see fit and no one has the right to question or criticize that right. Some may question why I choose not to capitalize muslim, catholic, jew or christian. That answer is that they do not deserve to be emphasized thus no capital letters. Actually Buddha has the right ideas. Note the capitals? It is because it was his name. Greed has corrupted more people than any other single cause.

[sadman]

Your knowledge is likely to be greater than mine, but my understanding is that Lucifer (the light-carrier) was one of the 4 archangels, along with Michael, Gabriel and another

His name was Ariel, I seem to remember.

Also, bear in mind that the bible is not the sole repository of Christian teaching; indeed, much of the Old Testament is considered allegorical and should not be thought to be an absolute truth. (Although creationists, fundamentalists and Jews believe different, which is fine but not what I believe).

Wasn't Uriel?

Spot on, thanks.

[sadman]

No, the trinity is not found anywhere in the bible, heaven going is not found anywhere in the bible and heither is he11 going.  As for them being the corner stones of Christianity... Let's consider a few things.  Firstly, God is only one.  Jesus is the son of God, the saviour and redeemer, he came to save mankind, and will return to the earth to reign in righteousness.  Linked to this, if we believe the plain bible message about Jesus return to the earth, we then can be with him after ressurection from the dead, not in heaven but on the earth.  The references to he11 in the bible all refer to the grave - so we all go to hel_l!  Our only hope is resurrection and judgement.  I can back all of this up with scripture, however, the post would just be too long.  If anyone is interested in the detail, please let me know.

He11: The Gospels of Matthew and Luke, and letters of James, also Acts, all refer to going to he11. It is also referred to by different names - the pit, the flames, and so on.

Heaven: Again, numerous references, one of the most inspiring and hopeful, IMHO, being the crucified Christ telling the criminal hanging next to him "I tell you, this day you will be with me in paradise".

The Trinity: I agree about Nicenae etc (and I learned something there, as well. Thanks.) The mystery of the Blessed Trinity is a theological construct: however, Christ refers to the Father and to the Spirit, making it very clear that they are all God.

Also check the references to Lucifer to see who it actually refers to.  Satan is found 19 times in the OT and means adversary, and 36 times in the NT and means adversary or false accuser.  Hence the Satans mentioned in the bible can and refer to people who were adversaries to God.  I don't want to repeat myself but all this can be easily found by reading the bible for yourself.  Please don't take my (or anyone elses) word for it.

I have to disagree with the principle you propound. There is no doubt in my mind that the various terms, Lucifer, Satan, the devil etc all refer to the same character and not simply adversaries.

ps Ariel is another name for Jerusalem and also a Jewish leader in the captivity.

Thanks. It was Uriel, as another poster said. My mistake.

Also, I'm with you regarding the friendly nature of the posts on this thread.

[AlexLah]

Why do you believe in something called God.

You believe in something when it is not proven it exist, right?

If something exist you do not have to believe in it, you know and can prove it is there.

Please show me the prove that God exist.

And please do not come up with arguments like : Look around you and what power could have created this wonderfull life we see all around us.

Ore feelings you have after visiting a church ore mosque.

I would like to see God and talk with it.

KR,

Alex

[Neeranam]

I believe in a higher power that I sometimes call God.

It doesn't matter to me what I call it.

Simply, when I look at my life up til now, there have been many instances that "prove" to me that this force is active in and controlling my life. Too many "coincedences" and "lucky" escapes to belive that I am even alive today by my own will.

I've studied Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and some mixtures of these three.

I don't categorise myself as being any one of them.

I used to philosophize about God and religion and I was miserable.

Now I don't and my life has improved remarkably.

Fighting against the "will of "God"" doesn't work for me.

Accepting whatever this force throws at me seems to work.

I used to be very anti-prayer, but after trying it, miracles have happened - really.

[sadman]

Please show me the prove that God exist.

I only wish I could. I can only say that my belief comes as a combination of thought, faith and experience.

Like other posters, I don't try to rationalise or philosophise about God or His existence. I'm neither bright enough nor learned enough to do that, so I just stick to the simple things. Anyway, if I can't even get the simple things right regularly, how on earth would I do complicated stuff?

[thaibebop]

No, the trinity is not found anywhere in the bible, heaven going is not found anywhere in the bible and heither is he11 going.  As for them being the corner stones of Christianity... Let's consider a few things.  Firstly, God is only one.  Jesus is the son of God, the saviour and redeemer, he came to save mankind, and will return to the earth to reign in righteousness.  Linked to this, if we believe the plain bible message about Jesus return to the earth, we then can be with him after ressurection from the dead, not in heaven but on the earth.  The references to he11 in the bible all refer to the grave - so we all go to hel_l!  Our only hope is resurrection and judgement.  I can back all of this up with scripture, however, the post would just be too long.  If anyone is interested in the detail, please let me know.

He11: The Gospels of Matthew and Luke, and letters of James, also Acts, all refer to going to he11. It is also referred to by different names - the pit, the flames, and so on.

I believe that most of the views on He11 were really formed by Dante when he wrote The Divine Comedy. That was something that was read to people at church that had nothing to do with scripture. All references to he11 after The Inferno all somehow relate back to this work of poetry.

Heaven: Again, numerous references, one of the most inspiring and hopeful, IMHO, being the crucified Christ telling the criminal hanging next to him "I tell you, this day you will be with me in paradise".

The Trinity: I agree about Nicenae etc (and I learned something there, as well. Thanks.) The mystery of the Blessed Trinity is a theological construct: however, Christ refers to the Father and to the Spirit, making it very clear that they are all God.

Also check the references to Lucifer to see who it actually refers to.  Satan is found 19 times in the OT and means adversary, and 36 times in the NT and means adversary or false accuser.  Hence the Satans mentioned in the bible can and refer to people who were adversaries to God.  I don't want to repeat myself but all this can be easily found by reading the bible for yourself.  Please don't take my (or anyone elses) word for it.

I have to disagree with the principle you propound. There is no doubt in my mind that the various terms, Lucifer, Satan, the devil etc all refer to the same character and not simply adversaries.

ps Ariel is another name for Jerusalem and also a Jewish leader in the captivity.

Thanks. It was Uriel, as another poster said. My mistake.

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Also, I'm with you regarding the friendly nature of the posts on this thread.

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[Gary A]

Neither I nor anyone else has to prove anything to you. If you choose to be an atheist it is up to you. If you do manage to get an interview with God please let me know because I’d like a few words with Him too.

I have friends who adhere to many different religions. Who are the best people? The worst screwing I ever got in my life was from an atheist. The most morally corrupt people I ever met have been christians. (Probably because I know so many). That said I was also cheated BIG time by a Buddhist. Very recently I was lied to and cheated by a jew. His word was absolutely NO good and why tell the truth when a lie is more acceptable was his theory.

There are good and bad people in this world and no religion or culture can be generalized. I am a believer in what goes around comes around.

Why do you believe in something called God.

You believe in something when it is not proven it exist, right?

If something exist you do not have to believe in it, you know and can prove it is there.

Please show me the prove that God exist.

And please do not come up with arguments like : Look around you and what power could have created this wonderfull life we see all around us.

Ore feelings you have after visiting a church ore mosque.

I would like to see God and talk with it.

KR,

Alex

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[suegha]

Why do you believe in something called God.

You believe in something when it is not proven it exist, right?

If something exist you do not have to believe in it, you know and can prove it is there.

Please show me the prove that God exist.

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Show me the proof that God doesn't exist! Just because we can prove, or otherwise, the existance of something it doesn't mean anything. My faith is in the God of omnipotence His son Jesus and the return of Jesus to establish God's Kingdom. This is my belief and I have faith in it and I am a happy and contented man. I hope that you are too...

May God bless anyone who searches for His truth.

ps I will post on the other points raised later,

Edited November 29, 2005 by suegha

[suegha]

Hello again, dealing with some of the thoughts posted. Firstly, let me say that a lot of the 'organised Christianity' doctrine came about as a result of the musings of men and not on the text of scripture. I was brought up an Irish Catholic and started reading the bible for myself when I was sixteeen, it was then that I started seeing the differences between what the bible says and what 'organised Christianity' says.

Re Satan. I can only say again, you must read the references for yourself, however, on my statement that satan simply means adversary - well, it does. the word satan is a hebrew word which means adversary, opponenent, or withstand. The best way to do this is to check all the times when it's not tranlated as 'satan'. eg In Numbers 22.22 an angel of the Lord is described as an adversary ie Hebrew 'satan', when he stands in the way of Balaam who was trying to do something God said he shouldn't do.

Re paradise. Let's deal with Jesus saying to the thief on the cross 'I say unto you today thou shalt be with me in paradise'. It's a useful one to examine what I am saying about Heaven going, and how salvation is dependant on resurrection at the return of Jesus. Firstly 'paradise is a greek word meaning 'garden'. Secondly Jesus did not ascend to Heaven that day, it was another 3 days before he himself stated to Mary Magdalene in John 20.17 Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:" So Jesus could not have meant that he and the thief were going to heaven that day. Some people say because the puctuation was not in the Greek text that the comma would be better after today, so 'I say unto you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise'. So at some stage in the future the thief would be resurrected to be with Jesus in paradise.

Re he11. The word He11 is never used in the OT to describe the doctrine of eternal hellfire. This myth is part of Greek mythology and as you said yourself is a part of Dante's inferno. It simply refers to the grave, check modern translations to verify this. Some confusion arose in the NT when references to Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom outside the city's walls, were used figurativley as he11. Gehenna was a rubbish dump where they burned rubbish, and would also burn the bodies of dead criminals. In fact this probably would have happened to the body of Jesus if Joseph of Arimathea had not claimed the body and laid it in his own unused tomb.

I am really enjoying this debate, any more thoughts?

[sadman]

Sorry, Suegha - your knowledge is vastly greater than mine, so I can't compete. I get the impression, however, that you stick with the bible rather than subsequent theological discussions or works. In fact, you seem to stick with the OT. Am I right, or I have I misread it? If I'm right, why do you not take on board the NT or other work?

[AlexLah]

Hi all,

Maybe from my previous post in here you might think I am only sort of bashing

people that are Christian or whatever religion. That is certainly not the case.

I really like discussions on those kind of topics like : Does God exist, Why are we here and so on.

Maybe there should be a seperate entry in TV forum where people can discuss and think about those kind of issues?

Could be called: Science, Religion and Philosophy?

What do you think?

KR,

Alex

[suegha]

Sorry, Suegha - your knowledge is vastly greater than mine, so I can't compete. I get the impression, however, that you stick with the bible rather than subsequent theological discussions or works. In fact, you seem to stick with the OT. Am I right, or I have I misread it? If I'm right, why do you not take on board the NT or other work?

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Hi sadman. I actually read and adhere (as best I can) to the whole of the bible. I also consider the whole bible to be the inspired word of God. I believe that the OT has Jesus woven into every book. Jesus said it himself, the law and the prophets all pointed to him. And he came to fulfill the law and the prophets not to destroy it. You are right I give no credibility to subsequent theological discussions or works.

While I welcome discussions from all sourses, I use the bible as the yardstick against which all else is measured. For example, I am a 'creationist' I believe that God created the heavens and the earth and that nothing happened by accident. I attended a debate on 'Theological evolution and literal creation' (it sounds dead heavy but it wasn't!). I went with an open mind and had some wonderful discussions afterwards and I would not fall out with anyone holding the evolutionist view. My reading of scripture tells me it was literal and created by God. This is just one example there are many more. I hope this clarifies my views.

As I wrote earlier in the post "My faith is in the God of omnipotence His son Jesus and the return of Jesus to establish God's Kingdom." I read the whole bible to be strengthened in my faith.

[suegha]

Maybe there should be a seperate entry in TV forum where people can discuss and think about those kind of issues?

Could be called: Science, Religion and Philosophy?

What do you think?

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Hi AlexLah, I agree about a separate forum to discuss 'spiritual' matters. Maybe that would be a good name for it 'Spiritual matters'. How do we go about organising this?

[AlexLah]

Spiritual matter would that limit that forum to only religous matters?

There are so many things we can discuss and share thoughts about.

How can we call it to serve a broader spectrum of life and the questions we have about it?

Alex

[suegha]

Spiritual matter would that limit that forum to only religous matters?

There are so many things we can  discuss and share thoughts about.

How can we call it to serve a broader spectrum of life and the questions we have about it?

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think 'spiritual matters' would limit it to purely religious matters! As you say a broad spectrum of life and questions and thoughts about it.

[sadman]

You are right I give no credibility to subsequent theological discussions or works.

That may well account for our differences, as a good deal of what I believe comes from subsequent works.

I would not fall out with anyone holding the evolutionist view.  My reading of scripture tells me it was literal and created by God.

I read it differently, but wholeheartedly agree that I wouldn't fall out with someone holding different views: we are really differing only in the minutiae, as we worship the same God and try to adhere to the same tenets.

As I wrote earlier in the post "My faith is in the God of omnipotence His son Jesus and the return of Jesus to establish God's Kingdom."  I read the whole bible to be strengthened in my faith.

No arguments here.

[suegha]

Thanks for the reply sadman, it's been a pleasure. I'm sure we'll communicate again on the forum.

May God bless you in your search for his truth.

Grace & Peace