Rent Or Buy - Expats Living Here 9 Months Or More Each Year And Have Been Here More Than One Year.

[london]

I must say that my experience here is more that of Hooters and Samran.

Added to that, I don't feel that Bangkok condos are expensive and certainly, compared to Singapore, Tokyo, London and/or Paris are very inexpensive, in fact cheap.

15 Mil THB = approx $500K. This isn't expensive for a large condo in a good area of a major international city.

Oh, and please (for those who want to contradict my assessment of Bangkok), Bangkok IS a major international city, perhaps not yet a Singapore, Hong Kong or Tokyo, but it is part of the fastest growing region on the planet. Certainly larger than KL and comparable to Jakarta in size.

[Hooters]

I have yet to see anybody with significant wealth that doesn't have a large property portfolio. Very few renters in there and those that have large wealth and rent have usually acquired money through inheritance etc.

I kid you not I know some one cashed up through a house sale in OZ who is still waiting 9 years for the baht to collapse and the real estate market to implode, in the mean time he comes here every 3 months and stays at the nana hotel for a month. He is still waiting but he now has to pay 50% more for the same new condos he was looking at 9 years ago and spent a fortune on hotels.

Assuming Thailand will follow the upward trend in ASIA then effectively fence sitters have now priced themselves out of the market :-(

[london]

I have yet to see anybody with significant wealth that doesn't have a large property portfolio.

I can only agree with this. No-one I know with substantial wealth does not own real estate.

I kid you not I know some one cashed up through a house sale in OZ who is still waiting 9 years for the baht to collapse and the real estate market to implode, in the mean time he comes here every 3 months and stays at the nana hotel for a month. He is still waiting but he now has to pay 50% more for the same new condos he was looking at 9 years ago and spent a fortune on hotels.

Yes, I am 100% sure that this happens a lot. Its a fear of commitment. A strange country, different rules. Mind you, I'd be surprised if he's only looking to pay " 50% more for the same new condos he was looking at 9 years ago".

Assuming Thailand will follow the upward trend in ASIA then effectively fence sitters have now priced themselves out of the market :-(

Its not just Thailand. Its SE Asia as a whole. I always look at the "coffee index": how much a cup of coffee is in different cities. This is a good indication of on-the-ground affordability.

As I also try to point out to people, if you haven't got income from the same currency where you are living, you are too vulnerable to currency fluctuations. Rental INCOME is one way to give you some certainty. Asia is NOT going to get any cheaper. I am still advising my friends to buy now....and sure, prices may go down, but my view is that they are more likely to consolidate. Its what happens with the currencies that is the real issue, and I don't see Asian currencies collapsing.

[trogers]

Its not just Thailand. Its SE Asia as a whole. I always look at the "coffee index": how much a cup of coffee is in different cities. This is a good indication of on-the-ground affordability.

Are you comparing a cup of latte in Starbuck of different countries, or a cup of O Liang (Kopi O in Singapore & Malaysia)?

[london]

Its not just Thailand. Its SE Asia as a whole. I always look at the "coffee index": how much a cup of coffee is in different cities. This is a good indication of on-the-ground affordability.

Are you comparing a cup of latte in Starbuck of different countries, or a cup of O Liang (Kopi O in Singapore & Malaysia)?

I appreciate the humour, but honestly, you can use the "Starbucks index" although I tend to use the general coffee shop (Mall-type) price as a guide. It is remarkably interesting and accurate.

[kanderson]

I bought a condo about 5 years ago when I believed the usd would tank (bought at 38 Bt / $). I was used to 44 - 40 Bt per $.

Before I bought I thought there is no hurry until I saw prices going up and fear of resession etc..

Anyway it's about the price of a new car. I for one hate renting or having to move around so much.

Also it's a little something to leave to my kids along w/ the other place in Hawaii.

VT 1 is easy to rent out.

I have never bought or built as an investment but it's nice when things go your way.

I am mostly an absentee owner but at such a huge condo project there seems to be no problems at all.

I can't wait to retire - just 3 more years - Hawaii isn't so bad either.

20 years ago you counld have bought a shoebox in Waikiki for $25,000 (near the beach).

Those days are long gone.

To me Jomtien seems almost like hawaii was 20 years ago.

[london]

I bought a condo about 5 years ago when I believed the usd would tank (bought at 38 Bt / $). I was used to 44 - 40 Bt per $.

Before I bought I thought there is no hurry until I saw prices going up and fear of resession etc..

Anyway it's about the price of a new car. I for one hate renting or having to move around so much.

Also it's a little something to leave to my kids along w/ the other place in Hawaii.

VT 1 is easy to rent out.

I have never bought or built as an investment but it's nice when things go your way.

I am mostly an absentee owner but at such a huge condo project there seems to be no problems at all.

I can't wait to retire - just 3 more years - Hawaii isn't so bad either.

20 years ago you counld have bought a shoebox in Waikiki for $25,000 (near the beach).

Those days are long gone.

To me Jomtien seems almost like hawaii was 20 years ago.

Yes, so true.

You WILL definitely enjoy your retirement. Hawaii and Thailand. Mmmmm, not half bad !!!

[andre47]

Buying a property in Thailand is not a good idea at all. You are not allowed to buy the land. I know, many Farangs do, but its illegal. I could understand if it is cheap, but the prices are very often too high. The quality is poor and the political situation here is not stable. Farangs have no rights in Thailand at all. Bring only that money to Thailand what you are willing to loose.

[london]

Buying a property in Thailand is not a good idea at all.

Really. Your reasons are.....?

You are not allowed to buy the land. I know, many Farangs do, but its illegal

No, it is not illegal. You can do it legally but not directly. Know your facts.

I could understand if it is cheap, but the prices are very often too high.

Hello !! High in comparison to where ?

The quality is poor and the political situation here is not stable.

Examples please.

Farangs have no rights in Thailand at all. Bring only that money to Thailand what you are willing to loose.

Based on your experience or heresay?

I'm just so tired of hearing the same rubbish time and time again.

So lets hear what your actual experience is in property ownership, not just in Thailand, but anywhere.

Are you aware that not all real estate investment is just ownership of land? Ever heard of condo's, strata units, REIT's ?

Prices are too high???? In comparison to where? What's you experience in this area? Site examples.

Poor quality? Mmmm, sure some is, but that is not exclusively a Thailand issue....its everywhere. But when you are looking at prime quality, some Thai building and finishes can't be bettered.

Political situation here isn't stable? Well, perhaps not as stable as some places but a lot more stable than others. Does it impact property ownership?

If you are going to denigrate property investment in Thailand thats fine.... IF you site examples.

If you are only voicing an opinion, then state "in my opinion" as an introduction.

There are many members who own property both as their residence and as investment here and I doubt if 5% would say that it was a bad investment.

You are entitled to your opinion, but if you make statements, at least back them up with examples.

[chaihot]

London, excellent post! Thank you. You summed it up very nicely!

[andre47]

_{No, it is not illegal. You can do it legally but not directly. Know your facts.}

Of cause you can not buy directly land. Only Thais can own land. If you choose a company which buys the land for you than you have the problem, that you can hold only 39% of the this company. You must give shares to Thai people. This causes two new problems:

1. who will own these shares

a) Can you really trust these persons for a very long period?

Who pay the capital for these shares? Are these Thai people paying the money from their own capital or are you just giving (lending) them

the money for the investment. If you are lending them the money it is a circumvention of the Thai law. Actually the Thai authorities are

checking this only if the farang owns more than 39%, but who guarantee that they will not check it under 39% in future? Fact is that according to

the Thai law its illegal. You can ask any lawyer...

_{I could understand if it is cheap, but the prices are very often too high.}

_{Hello !! High in comparison to where ?}

_{The quality is poor and the political situation here is not stable.}

_{Examples please.}

I am living in Pattaya. Here they are asking for a small house with about 80 sqm living area and about 300 sqm land about 7 Mill. Baht in a good location. The building quality is very simple. I'm coming from Germany. It is hard to compare, because you cannot find houses with such poor building quality but if I just compare the living area and the size of the land I could buy it for a similar price. But the main difference is that I really can own the land in Germany. Even a Thai could buy land in Germany and own it. Another important point is that in Thailand somebody can open 20 bars just 200 meters from your property and make loud music until 4 a clock in the morning. You can't do anything against it. This would be impossible in Germany or many other western countries. In Thailand you have sometimes water and electric power supply and sometimes not. In other countries you have this supply nearly always.

political situation: <snip>

_{Farangs have no rights in Thailand at all. Bring only that money to Thailand what you are willing to loose.}

_{Based on your experience or heresay?}

Ok, so please tell me what are the rights that we have. We have only the right to pay money and if you pay enough than perhaps you get some rights, if you understand what I mean. Talk with other people and read the internet. There are many examples.

_{Are you aware that not all real estate investment is just ownership of land? Ever heard of condo's, strata units, REIT's ?}

Yes, I know. I just don't like to live in a condo. A condo is no problem to own, but everybody must decide for himself if its a good investment. In my opinion the prices are too high.

Edited January 2, 2012 by soundman

[Darrel]

I am living in Pattaya. Here they are asking for a small house with about 80 sqm living area and about 300 sqm land about 7 Mill. Baht in a good location.

Asking prices in Pattaya are generally (always?) absurdly high. But I doubt that many people pay anything near the asking price, and if they do they may have a surprise when they try to resell later on.

As for houses, I think you would have to be out of your mind even to think about buying one unless:

1) you dont care about losing the money

and/or

2) you would be happy to live in it forever, no matter what happens to the neighbourhood.

and/or

3) you have a Thai GF/wife/BF/son/daughter whom you trust with your life. (And others before you have believed that and lived to regret it.)

Many condo asking prices are also way over the top, and that's probably why they hang around for years without being sold. But at least when you buy one (never in company name, of course) you own it, and can sell it easily and legally if you set the price right.

But in the end, all things taken into account, many asking prices here are indeed perhaps 25-50% more than the places would actually be worth in any freely convertible currency. The only real question is "will that continue?".

Edited January 1, 2012 by Darrel

[Khun Jean]

I am also tired of hearing the same rubbish again. And this time it is London spreading the rubbish.

Owning is not the same as having a lease or usufruct or any other type of contract..

Owning means that you are the freehold owner and can sell any moment you want with the money going into your pocket.

So andre47 is right and london is wrong.

There are always exceptions and the only exception is a foreign quota condo.

Having a company does not give you full ownership, 49% at the most.

Living in a house that you control via a usefruct or lease does not even come close to ownership. It is comparable with renting, only you paid the whole 30 years in one time. Thais are having a ball, that foreigners are that desperate to have a small spot in 'Paradise'.

Again the moment of truth is when you want to sell it! You will find out that you can't. 2 choices stay, or write it off.

[quiksilva]

More than 70% of the 72 respondents to this poll own property in Thailand. Yet, very few are complaining about their decision.

I wonder whether the opponents to buying have ever purchased here?

Khun Jean, who are you to say who is right and wrong? It is possible to own a leasehold interest, just as its possible to assign (sell) that interest to a third party.

I will not argue that it takes a long time to sell residential property, it does.

[Khun Jean]

I have every right because when some one says 'owning' and they are not talking about a foreign quota condo they mean 'leasing'. Sure you 'own' the lease right and sure you might not complain, but it is not ownership. It is renting.

As this topic is about renting or buying people can not use the argument that they rather buy when they are actually leasing. Just say that you are renting which is much closer to the truth.

So all the 'buyers', the 70% of the 72, they all have a foreign quota condo?

Ever tried to sell a leasehold, if you do it(and there are buyers which is doubtfull) do it in the first few years. It is a rapidly deprecating 'asset'.

I rent, buy, lease out, sell real estate for the last 10 years. I have to use a company for that, and i have 49% of that.

So do i own anything, yes 49%.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Khun Jean

[london]

Dear Khun Jean,

of course, "Owning is not the same as having a lease or usufruct or any other type of contract" I have not said that it was.

"Owning means that you are the freehold owner and can sell any moment you want with the money going into your pocket." 100% correct. I can't see where we differ.

So andre47 is right and london is wrong. I am happy to be PROVED wrong, IF that is the case.

"Having a company does not give you full ownership, 49% at the most." However, on your statement above: "Owning means that you are the freehold owner and can sell any moment you want with the money going into your pocket." I have yet to meet an owner who purchased land or a house through a company structure who has only received 49% of the proceeds. They have received 100% of the sale proceeds. Ownership is a term is NOT restricted to Freehold only. See below.

Re: "Living in a house that you control via a usefruct or lease does not even come close to ownership. It is comparable with renting, only you paid the whole 30 years in one time. Thais are having a ball, that foreigners are that desperate to have a small spot in 'Paradise'." is this any different than in Singapore where the maximum time of ownership is 99 years LEASE, or London for that matter where leaseholds are traded the same as freeholds?

My situation has been spelt out previously Khun Jean. I own condos here and I have sold condos too. I have never had an issue with getting my money when the properties were sold. 100% of it !

My objection is the blanket "don't invest in Thai property" that is based on a position of, on the majority of occasions, no experience in the market here at all.

From your posts, you have experience here. Would you say "Buying a property in Thailand is not a good idea at all"?

I don't think so.

Buying property is NOT just about $'s of profit in your hand. As I have stated many times, in Thailand in particular, its about Lifestyle.

And on that note, a Very happy lifestyle to all of us in Thailand in 2012 !

Edited January 1, 2012 by london

[kwonitoy]

So all the 'buyers', the 70% of the 72, they all have a foreign quota condo?

Dont' know about all of them, but yes mine is in a foreign name. Wouldn't buy other wise.

One of the first to buy in 2006 off plan, finished in 2010, beachfront, high floor, doubled in value. A unit 3 floors down from mine with the same plan recently sold for more than double of my original purchase price.

Didn't buy it as an investment, but extremely glad I bought it when I did, because at today's price I couldn't afford to buy it now.

Edited January 1, 2012 by kwonitoy

[Thighlander]

I have been following Thailand RE prices since a trip in 2004. I bought with a great attorney in 2006 and sold in 2008. I made a few $$$ and had a rent free place to stay for two years. My house was 9 years old. Moo Baans are mostly a nightmare with dogs roaming the streets. You really can't tell people you own...as stated earlier, you don't. I would buy a condo, but the returns are poor and the management fees high--if you are going to live in it, you may fare pretty well, but the way condos depreciate is almost puzzling in Thailand.

I see prices on the way down, while there was no true bubble, except for the CBD in BKK and some very expensive resorts; there is too much supply. The denial involved in real estate prices reversing and heading down is a real interesting topic.

[ludditeman]

More than 70% of the 72 respondents to this poll own property in Thailand. Yet, very few are complaining about their decision.

But does the vote of a delusional person actually mean anything?

While it's great that some people have had a bit of luck, that's all it was 'a bit of luck' and a lucky streak won't last forever.

Edited January 2, 2012 by ludditeman

[Hooters]

I see prices on the way down, while there was no true bubble, except for the CBD in BKK and some very expensive resorts; there is too much supply. The denial involved in real estate prices reversing and heading down is a real interesting topic.

Always good to back what you "see' with stats. for example the avg cost per sqm in lower Sukhumvit has doubled in the 6 years I bought. The building 20m down the road finishes mid 2012 and is more than double.

Location as always will provide a good return. Im 2 min from the bts, cant stress highly enough the importance. Also check out the rent in the area. A superbly located condo in BKK will bring a Much much greater return per sqm than a 5 story mansion in Isaan.

Those getting 4 % in a bank whilst renting a 50k/month condo will not be in Thailand for very long. The biggest expense by far is the rent and then inflation eating away at your savings, Most dont even seem to consider this .

of course the main reason is quite simply most farang in Thailand that rent DONT have any money and are on the breadline pension desperate to survive .

Renting for life will guarantee wealth destruction

Edited January 2, 2012 by Hooters

[ludditeman]

Those getting 4 % in a bank whilst renting a 50k/month condo will not be in Thailand for very long. The biggest expense by far is the rent and then inflation eating away at your savings, Most dont even seem to consider this .

of course the main reason is quite simply most farang in Thailand that rent DONT have any money and are on the breadline pension desperate to survive .

Renting for life will guarantee wealth destruction

My pension income is mostly index linked, taking it out of the pension fund to buy somewhere I can never own would be very foolish. My capital investments made 9% last year, not 4%, my 'walking around' money (usually around 1 million bht) only gets 3.25% interest. My rent is 11% of my monthly spending, I have no desire to give someone else a property, then to pretend to everyone that it is mine.

I don't consider myself on the 'breadline'

Will I be around here long? Don't know, thinking of China where I can own 1 property, get 3 year Visas and run a business.

Those who have bought a property in someone else's name and no longer have the options to move around freely mat well be here a long time, or until they have less than 800k in the bank.

Edited January 2, 2012 by ludditeman

[Hooters]

Those getting 4 % in a bank whilst renting a 50k/month condo will not be in Thailand for very long. The biggest expense by far is the rent and then inflation eating away at your savings, Most dont even seem to consider this .

of course the main reason is quite simply most farang in Thailand that rent DONT have any money and are on the breadline pension desperate to survive .

Renting for life will guarantee wealth destruction

My pension income is mostly index linked, taking it out of the pension fund to buy somewhere I can never own would be very foolish. My capital investments made 9% last year, not 4%, my 'walking around' money (usually around 1 million bht) only gets 3.25% interest. My rent is 11% of my monthly spending, I have no desire to give someone else a property, then to pretend to everyone that it is mine.

I don't consider myself on the 'breadline'

Thats good how? EVERYBODY says that. haven't read a post yet where 10-20% wasn't the norm LOL if your getting 9% every year thats okay but you don't have capitol growth., back to square one again

property wins hands down. If one is patient and sells in the upswing then 6-8% rental and perhaps a 50% capitol increase is achievable.

Never seen anyone with wealth not have a very large slice of it in property.

interesting but just read an article that showed Ethiopia is going through massive growth! who would have thought it? guaranteed nobody would have bought there.

Thailand will surge ahead with all of s/e Asia. Most renters have already priced themselves out of the market that's, pretty obvious

[ludditeman]

Thailand will surge ahead with all of s/e Asia. Most renters have already priced themselves out of the market that's, pretty obvious

What priced most out of the market was the exchange rate halving in the last 4 years.

At 90 bht to the pound or 55 bht to the dollar, it might well be worth taking the risk, but now no way (and I wasn't here 4 years ago).

[chaihot]

...

Those getting 4 % in a bank whilst renting a 50k/month condo will not be in Thailand for very long. The biggest expense by far is the rent and then inflation eating away at your savings, Most dont even seem to consider this .

of course the main reason is quite simply most farang in Thailand that rent DONT have any money and are on the breadline pension desperate to survive . ...

...

Never seen anyone with wealth not have a very large slice of it in property.

...

Both quotes snipped for brevity.

Excellent posts.

[Darrel]

If one is patient and sells in the upswing then 6-8% rental and perhaps a 50% capitol increase is achievable.

Sure.

Which part of "my landlord is getting 3.5% gross on the condo I'm in, and no one (including me) will buy it because he wants the same amount he paid for it 5 years ago, and that's way too much today" is difficult for you to understand?

And there are so many other overpriced units that don't sell, just like mine.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Darrel

[marstons]

i own house in the UK and rent it out, i rent here so voted rent for the purpose of your question. many reasons, but as i understand it i cannot own land the house sits on here, leases only last 30 years, i still want to be UK resident should i need to return for health reasons, and lastly i can pick everthing up and chuck it in the pick up and move anytime i want as i have done.

obviously a house in the UK fetches more than enough rental income to rent here and leave quite a bit. i have no doubt it willl still be there in 40-50 years (though i wont be) where as properties here will do well to last 10 years judging by the quality of the ones i have rented.

not going to get into a debate about my reasons, its just how i understand them and have seen more than a 1 friend be kicked out of what he thought was his house.

i base my thinking on how i would at home, and if it cant be purchased outright 100% in my name then its a no no. Flexability to move is important to me as well. have been through the new Kareoke opening near by route before.

diffent horses for differnt courses and each to there own.

[TomTao]

My wife and I rent, 3 bed 3 bath townhouse in Chumphon for 6000 baht per month, it would cost us more than 2 mil to build on her land, so renting is the better option for now.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[Hooters]

My wife and I rent, 3 bed 3 bath townhouse in Chumphon for 6000 baht per month, it would cost us more than 2 mil to build on her land, so renting is the better option for now.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

Just had a look at google maps. Thats sounds expensive, your in the middle of no where

appreciate the input but its not really relevant to the topic unless we invite those with trailer park homes as well.

[Hooters]

i own house in the UK and rent it out, i rent here so voted rent for the purpose of your question. many reasons, but as i understand it i cannot own land the house sits on here, leases only last 30 years, i still want to be UK resident should i need to return for health reasons, and lastly i can pick everthing up and chuck it in the pick up and move anytime i want as i have done.

obviously a house in the UK fetches more than enough rental income to rent here and leave quite a bit. i have no doubt it willl still be there in 40-50 years (though i wont be) where as properties here will do well to last 10 years judging by the quality of the ones i have rented.

Why do people choose to leave out the most important details?

You must be kidding mate.

I flew out via heath row to Belgrade serbia last year but stopped off in London and stayed at a mates place 2 story terrace style house valued around 1 mill US dollars.

What a DUMP! Im 6 foot 4inch and I couldnt even turn around in the kitchen. Tiny rooms and hallways all claustrophobic in a 50 year old building , granted it was nicely renovated.

No wonder the condo market is booming here at the fraction of the cost.

Keep hearing about these buildings in Thailand that will fall over after 10 years? Guess BKK is only 9 years old LOL

The reality is Both the yanks and the poms have no choice but to rent their properties because they can NOT sell them, hundreds of thousands caught in the bubble from2008 so now they errrrmm.. cough...choose to rent them out at super reduced pricing so they can live in amazing thailand ...go figure..

Edited January 2, 2012 by Hooters

[aussiebebe]

I've lived in Bangkok for five years and I own the condo I live in. It's a low-grade condo with cheap laminated flooring, materials and windows but despite some problems like noise at night sometimes, I'm far happier than I ever was when I rented a house. My condo has nice views, no insects, a communal garden, gym and swimming pool and no crazy neighbors with dogs, it's private and I'm happy with the location.

I plunged into buying and didn't understand condos at first, but after making friends I saw how Thais do it, they consider the condo a 'shell' to be modified, decorated and appointed as they see fit - most other residents have spent significantly on expensive flooring, furniture and fixtures, not for investment but because they want somewhere nice to live. One guy I met owns the same style unit as me but all his furniture's from Index where it's 200k+ for a table etc, he has real wood flooring, lay-z-boy sofas, wallpaper,...oh and a Nissan 350Z.

As others on this forum have noted, the downside is that condos can be hard to sell.