6 Year Old Daughter Taken During Visit To Thailand Although I Have Custody Through Amphur

[kloster17]

Looking for advice. I know these topics get posted here a lot but I thought maybe someone would have some experience.

Been divorced for 2.5 years through Thai amphur in Bangkok. During divorce, signed sole custody over to me. Agreement was to bring daughter every 6 months for visit. I have. This time she refused to let me take her back home to America. I tried the police twice but they said must go to court again.

I did not have my custody documents with me, although I wonder if it would have made a difference given their one sided demeanor. Her American Passport and plane ticket was not enough to get her back. Daughter was in tears and scared wanting to go back home. A true nightmare for us both.

Question: Does she (ex wife) just get to play this court game all over again and play the money agreement game or if I return with documents will I get my daughter back? I thought we were safe from any of this but obviously i was wrong to assume that. Thats all there is to the story. We came 2 December and were supposed to fly home on the 26th. I am now back without my daughter and very worried. Daughter was born in america and has always had US birth certificate and passport. I realize her mother being Thai enablesa her to remain in Thailand but was hoping the amphur agreement held water.

Thank you in advance for any advice.

[sbk]

Have you checked the amphur where the divorce took place? the custody agreement may be registered there, if so, then you can get a copy and take it to Family Court.

[jamescollister]

Don't follow some of this, your daughter was born in the US and is a US citizen. Arriving on a US passport then kidnapped. Your Ex would have no proof she is even her mother here. US embassy should have made a few phone calls and got her back. Jim.

[kloster17]

Sorry if there is confusion. Embassy was closed on xmas when this took place and her mother is Thai (living in Bangkok now), the police took her word and did not care for proof. Im sure she can prove she is her mother. i have the custody/divorce agreement with me here (at home) but did not have them during the visit in Thailand. i fought with her all day, no one even seemed concerned for my daughter.

I appreciate your reply. I am in the military, dont have the time to spend another month (ever how long it would take) for courts. If that happens to be the only way, Im afraid my daughter will be missing the rest of her school year and I will have to come back in a few months.

I was hoping it would be as simple as showing authorities my proof of custody and having my daughter returned immediately so we could come back home.

Thanks again for replying.

[GrahamF]

Have you tried contacting the US Embassy since Xmas? If not it might be worth a shot and maybe you could send them copies of your custody agreement, etc.

[mataus101]

xmas is only one day, so court being in a month should not be a problem.

[jamescollister]

Sorry, this does not ring true, or there is a lot more to it. If the child was born in the US why come to Thailand to get custody. As a service man you should have had a emergency contact number either here or in the US. Now this I am not sure of, but the Amphor is local didn't know they had power over custody disputes, think that's national courts.. Call me suspicious, but I have 2 young kids and I would not just walk or fly away and leave them. Jim

[InterestedObserver]

I am also confused. This is apparently a negotiated sole custody agreement between you and the ex-wife as part of an Amphur divorce and not a Family Court ruling? Do you have sole custody awarded by the Thai Family Court?

[kloster17]

I really do respect and appreciate the replies but this is not a troll post by any means.

why a custody arrangement through the amphur: We were married in Thailand, she went back to Thailand a few years ago and took my daughter (for a 4 month period) and then agreed to a divorce in thailand for a large sum of money. I had the amphur put in writing that I had sole custody. I then took my daughter back home with me. we visit about every 6 months.

Please understand that a child born in the US or anywhere from a Thai mother will not matter once in Thailand. They dont care where your child was born, if the mother is Thai and in thailand they will let the mother keep the child unless you have some paper work stating you have custody from a Thai court (hoping the amphur is considered this).

I assumed the amphur was as good as any court (maybe Im wrong). As long as two people agree to a divorce and have an agreement you can do everything in an amphur in one day, regarding divorce and child custody agreements.. If you disagree you must use a Thai court system to fight it out (this is why I payed a large sum of money to her). So my question is if I have an official document from the Amphur stating I have sole custody (which I do Have), with an agreement of coming and visiting every 6 months, does that get my daughter back or does that mean nothing now and I have to go through another court?

As far as leaving my daughter, I would never just leave my daughter, I argued all day (I had been on leave for 23 days), went through two different policemen after having the hotel call twice in a 24 hour period. They were not going to give me my daughter back. The only way out was to leave everything in the hotel, grab my daughter and run down the street while my ex would have chased us screaming 'hes taking my child' and getting in trouble with the police. I really dont think that would have been too smart, only more trouble.

If you think being jobless is smart and the military was just going to let me stay in Thailand until things worked out, your mistaken (not trying to be a smartass). They are kicking people out left and right these days and I need my job. If I had my paper work with me, maybe I would have called and tried for a few more days but I had no documents to prove custody with me. So Im prepared to go back and get her and leave ASAP. However if it is the court system I must play with, that means a lawyer, time, court dates (not something you do in a few days I would think).

Im not smart about the law in thailand. thought I was covered after going through the divorce and getting custody. If I come across as misleading or showing a lack of concern for my daughter I do not mean to. I have been raising her for the last almost 3 years by myself. Im very worried and hope this does not drag out. I really dont think there was anything I could have done without the paper work. No one cared. They just stand there, talk to her in thai and in the end say " you have to go to court'.

I have read that the embassy will not get your kids back on their website, they will only lead you to a lawyer and perhaps check up on your child. If anyone knows a better way, I would much appreciate the advice. Im not trying to stir the pot with my replies but it seems as if some people think Im not sincere or telling the whole story.

[mataus101]

simple answer, get the paper work you left at home.

even if you must call a friend or family member to bust your door down, or go in with a locksmith and get the paperwork.

then send it to you asap, take it into the amphur or police station and get her back.

If you get that paperwork your fine, knowing that you should find a way to get it.

[cardholder]

simple answer, get the paper work you left at home.

even if you must call a friend or family member to bust your door down, or go in with a locksmith and get the paperwork.

then send it to you asap, take it into the amphur or police station and get her back.

If you get that paperwork your fine, knowing that you should find a way to get it.

Try reading the post properly. The OP is back in the States.

[farang000999]

Your ex-wife sounds like a real ****

Best wishes.

Also, amazing how the US embassy can't do anything for a serviceman whose child was kidnapped. What a joke! <deleted> do they do over there anyways besides charge you $100 for notary while the Federal Government continues to charge you income taxes until you die regardless of residency?

Edited December 27, 2011 by farang000999

[craigt3365]

A few off topic posts have been removed. I think this is best in the Family and Children forum.

Best of luck to the OP!

Topic Moved.

[jackr]

Guess you'll need to see a lawyer if the amphur can't do anything. If it comes to it, make another 'agreement', bung the witch whatever she wants and never bring your daughter back. Hope it works out.

[Mario2008]

Upon divorce at the amphur, custody arrangements can be made regarding any children. This is what the OP appernetly did and he recieved sole custody. That means that he alone is allowed to determine the place where the child stays and the mother is in violation of the law. (depeding on the visitation rights they agreed to). The custody agreement will have been entered into the records at the amphur and is all the proof the OP needs.

Often the police will not act in these kind of cases, but with proof of having sole custody the law is on the OP's side. If the mother doesn't agree with the current custody setllement, she will have to go to court to see it changed for which there need to sufficient grounds.

The amphur is no player in this, they only recorded the agreement but don't have any authorithy to enforce it. That is up to the courts and police.

If a lawyer is needed, for legal advice you can turn to isaanlawyers, not based in Bangkok but they have a good reputation regarding family law and can give good advice.

Also do contact the State Department / American Citizen Services at the embassy in Bangkok and do stress you have sole custody gained in Thailand. That makes a lot of difference.

[Shurup]

What a nightmare! I wish you luck and want to advise you to ignore the 6 month agreement once you get her back.

[sbk]

off topic bickering removed, nobody wants to read it, cheers

[InterestedObserver]

What does the ex-wife want for return of your daughter? Have you asked her directly?

[blackpoolbob]

good luck, On the bright side at least you are not married to her now.

Edited December 28, 2011 by sbk
obscenity removed- keep it clean thanks

[Bung]

To the OP, sorry to hear of your situation, it must be a nightmare for you and your daughter and I wish you well getting her back.

I am in a similar situation, divorced, sole custody from the Amphur, ex wife threatening to take my son away if I don't give her extra money etc so I am following this closely.

It seems you will need to come back to Thailand with your divorce and custody papers.

Possibly a local (dependable) lawyer will be able to stand in for you here? I think though as her custodian you will need to be here for her and take her home.

Good luck.

[nocturn]

i feel for you and thank god my ex and i worked out an amicable solution. I cant imagine how i would react in your situation.

good luck

[Mario2008]

There is a good informative article about custody of children in Thailand here:

http://thailawonline.com/en/family/children/custody-of-a-child-thailand.html

[theblether]

I can't add to the excellent information already given to you above, however you know that you have stood by the agreement, your conscience is clear. I reckon you'll get your daughter back at some future point. Once you do that never take this risk again, bring your daughter up as an American and give her all the security love and protection in the world.

Coming back to Thailand while she is a child will be a form of torture for the two of you, so don't do it. Good luck, I hope it resolves soon, and I hope next year is the start of a new era in your life.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Get the paperwork and get back to Thailand ASAP. Retain an attorney here just in case. Have your outbound tickets booked and ready to go. Hire a couple of guys as muscle, walk in and take her away. Have a wad of cash on hand to ease your way if she has any uniforms on her side.

There is no concept of "kidnapping" by a biological parent in Thailand, no matter who has legal custody. The letter of the law doesn't mean much if she has local cops on her side, but as soon as you're at the airport on your way out all you need is the custody paperwork and passports.

Don't come back.

[cardholder]

Get the paperwork and get back to Thailand ASAP. Retain an attorney here just in case. Have your outbound tickets booked and ready to go. Hire a couple of guys as muscle, walk in and take her away. Have a wad of cash on hand to ease your way if she has any uniforms on her side.

There is no concept of "kidnapping" by a biological parent in Thailand, no matter who has legal custody. The letter of the law doesn't mean much if she has local cops on her side, but as soon as you're at the airport on your way out all you need is the custody paperwork and passports.

Don't come back.

That is the most practical piece of advice I ever read on Thai Visa.com

I am not sure if it will work, but assuming it is legal, - desperate times call for desperate measures.

[transam]

Get the paperwork and get back to Thailand ASAP. Retain an attorney here just in case. Have your outbound tickets booked and ready to go. Hire a couple of guys as muscle, walk in and take her away. Have a wad of cash on hand to ease your way if she has any uniforms on her side.

There is no concept of "kidnapping" by a biological parent in Thailand, no matter who has legal custody. The letter of the law doesn't mean much if she has local cops on her side, but as soon as you're at the airport on your way out all you need is the custody paperwork and passports.

Don't come back.

That is the most practical piece of advice I ever read on Thai Visa.com

I am not sure if it will work, but assuming it is legal, - desperate times call for desperate measures.

Must agree.

[Mario2008]

It makes a big deal if one has legal custody or not in Thailand, as a person who has custody can determine the place where a minor stays. A person without custody cannot and can be charged with kidnapping.

Yes, the OP has the right to just take his child. He would not be advised to do that on private property, as he would be tresspassing and it would be better to take the child away from somebody else than the mother. If it is legal is however something alse than if it is wise or safe to do so.

[InterestedObserver]

It makes a big deal if one has legal custody or not in Thailand, as a person who has custody can determine the place where a minor stays. A person without custody cannot and can be charged with kidnapping.

Yes, the OP has the right to just take his child. He would not be advised to do that on private property, as he would be tresspassing and it would be better to take the child away from somebody else than the mother. If it is legal is however something alse than if it is wise or safe to do so.

In Thailand a person with "parental power" has a better legal position. The ex-wife may not have signed away her parental power when she agreed to sole custody for the father during the Amphur divorce. The OP may have sole custody, but the ex-wife could retain significant authority to manage the affairs of the child.

[Forethat]

Get the paperwork and get back to Thailand ASAP. Retain an attorney here just in case. Have your outbound tickets booked and ready to go. Hire a couple of guys as muscle, walk in and take her away. Have a wad of cash on hand to ease your way if she has any uniforms on her side.

There is no concept of "kidnapping" by a biological parent in Thailand, no matter who has legal custody. The letter of the law doesn't mean much if she has local cops on her side, but as soon as you're at the airport on your way out all you need is the custody paperwork and passports.

Don't come back.

I agree with this post. The X wife can go to court and try to get the custody agreement suspended, in which case the judge (in MY opinion) is more likely to award temporary custody to the parent who is currently in custody of the child. Again, that's an opinion based on hearsay. To prevent this from happening, time is CRUCIAL. Get the paperwork. Go to Thailand. Bring cash and muscle. Get your daughter back and get the he** out of Thailand.

I was part of a small team that helped a friend in a similar situation earlier this year, worked like a charm.

[Mario2008]

It makes a big deal if one has legal custody or not in Thailand, as a person who has custody can determine the place where a minor stays. A person without custody cannot and can be charged with kidnapping.

Yes, the OP has the right to just take his child. He would not be advised to do that on private property, as he would be tresspassing and it would be better to take the child away from somebody else than the mother. If it is legal is however something alse than if it is wise or safe to do so.

In Thailand a person with "parental power" has a better legal position. The ex-wife may not have signed away her parental power when she agreed to sole custody for the father during the Amphur divorce. The OP may have sole custody, but the ex-wife could retain significant authority to manage the affairs of the child.

The term parental powers means that one has legal authorithy over a child. If you don't have it, you have nothing to say.

Yes, it is important to check what the agreement actually says and what provisions it actually makes.