Jehovah'S Witnesses In Chiang Mai

[udonguy]

We veer off-topic but it's true. I only raised it as a poster was raising the issue of JWs and 'free speech' (which I TOTALLY agree with) and, to be accurate, we live in a highly censored society hence the debate in the article you posted. Anyway my thread was about imposing on others - they can believe what they like and do what they like but leave me alone

Clearly a misunderstanding, we agree ( except about the indoctrination of hill tribe kids). what was it a Jesuit said? 'Give me a child until it's seven and it's mine for life'? I am not sure of the exact quote but it's something like that. That is why I do not like 'missionaries' converting hill tribe kids.

I don't like the Hilltribe indoctrination either. It's a bit 'I will give you school and food and you will read the Bible and sing hymns' on the one hand and, to be fair, they also do a lot of good and often half a loaf of bread is better than none! I do believe IF there was/is a God He would not care what people call themselves and judge only on results.

[uptheos]

I don't like the Hilltribe indoctrination either. It's a bit 'I will give you school and food and you will read the Bible and sing hymns' on the one hand and, to be fair, they also do a lot of good and often half a loaf of bread is better than none! I do believe IF there was/is a God He would not care what people call themselves and judge only on results.

I only know (in detail) regarding one particular Lisu village on the top of a mountain in Chiang Rai. I have been involved with it since 1992 and that's all the detail I'm giving about that part.

There is now a church up there and some Lisu call themselves 'Christians', which I'm sure pleases those who run the church.

However, when I sit and talk to my close Lisu friends (in Thai or via interpreter), it's VERY clear that the acceptance of Christianity is not because of any sudden epiphany, but more matter of fact and practical. "if the Christian God will help us that's good". "If Buddha will help us that's good". "If we keep pleasing the spirits to help us, that's good". It's really not as if they have taken Jesus as their personal saviour and walk and talk with him, but rather, if any of these 'saviours' actually exist and might help them, then they're in and don't mind accepting them, talking about them. They really couldn't care less if they are called Christian, Jesuit, Catholic, JW or Mormon....if there's help for the crops or a better life then they are all OK.

Basically, I think if it's OK with them, what's it to do with me? I'm not the one who has to walk through mud, under the hot sun and break my back in the fields to grow tomatoes only to be shafted when the buyers will only pay 2 Baht. Sure, I understand them linking in with anyone that offers help of any kind. To them getting help simply for 'listening' and calling yourself something, isn't hard work.

Edited January 8, 2012 by uptheos

[onthedarkside]

Ok ... I have been watching this topic closely. Amazed that it has reached 9 pages. Now seems to be wandering off into new area. May I remind members of the original topic 'Jehovah's Witnesses in Chiang Mai'. If you have nothing else left to say on JWs then maybe best let this topic rest in peace.

[OriginalPoster]

That's were you're entirely wrong. It's a slippery slope to outlaw thought & speech. One man's asshol_e is another man's sage, and once society outlaws one or the other we are in trouble. As far as I can tell, in Thailand, as in most of ther countries, the JW have the right to bore you silly and you have the right to slam the door in their face. But you don't have the right to prohibit their speech.

You live in a place where we do not have free speech so how do you reconcile that?

Anyway I disagree. I'd rather live in a place where people have the RIGHT to believe whatever they want and to talk openly about it and share between those of like minds - but not uninvited (no Buddhist door knockers as far as I know).

ER??? I've never said I want to prohibit their freedom of speech, and of course they can believe what they want, but please don't speak to me, it's silly!. I think I'll start believing on the flying spaghetti monster, but please don't lock me up if you see me spouting off. ( I will become a Pastafarian, just like that guy in Austria)

no I know you didn't say that I was just commenting on the fact we do not have free speech here in Thailand (in all areas)

There's not complete free speech anywhere. I haven't personally had my speech restricted in Thailand. If you have, then I would suggest that perhaps restricting the free speech rights of JW would be a directionally incorrect thing to hope for. You're not going to be the person who gets to decide who's speech is restricted, so there's no particular reason to think that future restrictions will work out in your favour.

Also, that's great that you think that people have the right to believe whatever they want as long as they don't tell anyone else about it. Very progressive thinking there. But how do you suggest that each of us verify that the person that we are speaking to is like-minded before stating our opinions?

Edited January 8, 2012 by OriginalPoster

[msg362]

I suppose in general conversation it comes up and you can work it out . Friends of mine are sort of basic Christian, Catholic etc. They know I don't believe and really it's not ever a serious point of conversation. ( I do ask silly questions sometimes). I discuss my atheist beliefs with other like minded people sometimes. But it extends further than that into evolution, free will etc. Another topic If a JW turns up and goes away fast I have no problem that is unless he is willing to listen too.

I'd be happy to engage in a sensible, serious discussion on religion anytime , but those with certainty are often impervious to logic and reason and simply won't engage. It's those people it's simply not worth trying to engage in a discussion.

Edited January 8, 2012 by msg362

[OriginalPoster]

topic If a JW turns up and goes away fast I have no problem that is unless he is willing to listen too.

Fair enough, but the same standard doesn't seem to apply to Thai people who wander into a restaurant while you are eating your meal and try to sell you some chintzy shit and won't go away after you say no 10 times. Somehow the JW are more of a threat, a thread about Thai hawkers would never trigger 9 pages of reponses.

Edited January 8, 2012 by OriginalPoster

[udonguy]

There's not complete free speech anywhere. I haven't personally had my speech restricted in Thailand. If you have, then I would suggest that perhaps restricting the free speech rights of JW would be a directionally incorrect thing to hope for. You're not going to be the person who gets to decide who's speech is restricted, so there's no particular reason to think that future restrictions will work out in your favour.

Also, that's great that you think that people have the right to believe whatever they want as long as they don't tell anyone else about it. Very progressive thinking there. But how do you suggest that each of us verify that the person that we are speaking to is like-minded before stating our opinions?

Not sure if you're mis-representing me on purpose or not. Let's go through my stance yet again. I am FOR free speech in every way and it has been fought for in the developed world and I have never stated I wanted to restrict JW's or anyone. I am AGAINST imposing my view, your views or Santa Claus's views on anyone by door knocking or by disturbing people when they have not asked nor sought my opinion.

You have yet to address the point that it is ONLY the JW's who do this? no one else? seen any Buddhist door knockers? why them? why my door? you ignore this point for some convenient reason.

In Thailand we do not have free speech to discuss certain things, as well you know, but this if going off topic and so I respectfully ask that we leave this subject alone.

[udonguy]

topic If a JW turns up and goes away fast I have no problem that is unless he is willing to listen too.

Fair enough, but the same standard doesn't seem to apply to Thai people who wander into a restaurant while you are eating your meal and try to sell you some chintzy shit and won't go away after you say no 10 times. Somehow the JW are more of a threat, a thread about Thai hawkers would never trigger 9 pages of reponses.

This response is not worthy of you. They are selling, not trying to convert be saying they have the whole truth and I will go to Hell if I do not believe! but your analogy has SOME truth in that the JW's are trying to 'sell' something so a thumbs up for that at least!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

There's not complete free speech anywhere. I haven't personally had my speech restricted in Thailand.

I have.

If you agree with the state line on all topics then you don't feel any restrictions, indeed. But that doesn't mean they're not there.

[Eyjafjallajokull]

topic If a JW turns up and goes away fast I have no problem that is unless he is willing to listen too.

Fair enough, but the same standard doesn't seem to apply to Thai people who wander into a restaurant while you are eating your meal and try to sell you some chintzy shit and won't go away after you say no 10 times. Somehow the JW are more of a threat, a thread about Thai hawkers would never trigger 9 pages of reponses.

This response is not worthy of you. They are selling, not trying to convert be saying they have the whole truth and I will go to Hell if I do not believe! but your analogy has SOME truth in that the JW's are trying to 'sell' something so a thumbs up for that at least!

Udon, do you actually read any of the posts above? How many of them clearly indicate that JW's do not teach the hell fire at all? Did it ever cross your mind to look at the link posted earlier to the JW's website and inform yourself on their basic believes?

[udonguy]

topic If a JW turns up and goes away fast I have no problem that is unless he is willing to listen too.

Fair enough, but the same standard doesn't seem to apply to Thai people who wander into a restaurant while you are eating your meal and try to sell you some chintzy shit and won't go away after you say no 10 times. Somehow the JW are more of a threat, a thread about Thai hawkers would never trigger 9 pages of reponses.

This response is not worthy of you. They are selling, not trying to convert be saying they have the whole truth and I will go to Hell if I do not believe! but your analogy has SOME truth in that the JW's are trying to 'sell' something so a thumbs up for that at least!

Udon, do you actually read any of the posts above? How many of them clearly indicate that JW's do not teach the hell fire at all? Did it ever cross your mind to look at the link posted earlier to the JW's website and inform yourself on their basic believes?

ok I'll go look but my point has always been - I do not care who it is so i have never specifically attacked JW's but I DO attack their missionary zeal and you have not answered the point about why and the fact they are the only ones who do it.

Edit: had a good look around that link and can't find anything relating to those 'who don't make it' or about Hell but this is all academic i am against ANYONE imposing/door knocking or whatever be they from the Church of Elvis or the Church of whatever. JW's and anyone can and should enjoy freedom of speech, no question. I should be allowed peace and the ability to make up my own mind and search for whatever I want/need when I feel fit, I don't need preachers coming to my home.

Edited January 9, 2012 by udonguy