The Loss Of Status

[Baal]

I agree with what the OP has written in nearly all points. The points I dont agree with, dont really matter as that is his own beliefs.

There are great opportunties in this country, positions that would never be attainable in our home countries. It doesnt have to be a position of power, just some great standing amongst a community who does not know your background or education.

My own story is a little long, so I will leave it out. I will say though, that you should really think about what was written in the first post as it quite factual and thought provoking.

edit - I will say though, if bar girls, late nights, hangovers daily, wearing no shirts going into government buildings, using bad Thai language and being a holiday maker for the rest of your life suits you, well thats fine to. Each to their own.

For the others, put on a shirt, mix in good circles, date some class and have a plan, you will go further here, than you ever could at home.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL, you are the most superficial person Ive had the displeasure of reading in a long time.

I could do the same thing anywhere.

If I wanted I could throw on a nice pair of pants, shirt and head on down to the local POLO match trolling for widows.

but this is the really funny bit,

For the others, put on a shirt, mix in good circles, date some class and have a plan, you will go further here, than you ever could at home.

They just opened a male whore house in Vegas, perhaps you should throw on your best GQ clothing and by a ticket to VEGAS.

The first post in a nutshell was a about someone being a total loser in ones home country being able to move somwhere nobody knows him and getting respect he does not deserve because nobody in the new country knows what a loser he is.

You dont have to move to Thailand to do that, all you gotta do is move to another city.

Mix in good circles? lol , yeah that will last a few evenings till somone calls your bluff and you have to pull out your financial statement when your new rich wife sees her credit report shot to shit by the fact that you have a paper trail of misery behind you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<flame removed>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL, I think the lil fella is off his rocker, his PM...

<flame removed>

Physical threats on a forum.

You should be banned, but then again you have so much influence and status now I bet the Admins are scared they will be fired if they do because you will tell your well dressed pals.

Edited December 3, 2005 by RDN

[Pudgimelon]

Guys, what's with all the anomosity?

I post a non-offensive reflective rant about squandered opportunities and the unrealized potential we farang have in this country. Several other posters have agreed with what I said, so I'm not alone in this regard.

However, several of you have chosen not to debate the issues I raised, but rather launch personal attacks against me. You've criticized my background, called me a loser, and dismissed my arguments as nothing but asslicking social climbing (something which I have repeated made clear that I did NOT say).

If you disagree with me, fine, I've got no problem with that. But I think a simple, "Hey, what you're saying is not for me," would suffice. There is absolutely no reason to flame me.

Wilko, Baal, Neeranam, Mighty Mouse, and others, you guys really need to cool your jets. Take a pill and get over yourselves. If what I say upsets you, learn to deal with it like adults, please.

Edited December 3, 2005 by RDN

[Tarragona]

Many of us (including myself) come from poor backgrounds and we probably never really got a fair shake in our home countries. We certainly didn't have much of a shot at making an impact on a national or HISTORICAL level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you're "hanging out" with MPs and "tutoring" movie actresses - but what is the national or historical impact you think you're having?

[Baal]

Many of us (including myself) come from poor backgrounds and we probably never really got a fair shake in our home countries. We certainly didn't have much of a shot at making an impact on a national or HISTORICAL level.

Oh booo hoooo hoooo, everybody has a shot, just ask FAMOUS AMOS!

Wally Amos 1936-

King of Cookies

Wally "Famous" Amos was born in Tallahassee, Florida, in 1936 and attended the old Lincoln High School. His parents divorced when he was 12 years old, so he moved to New York. He attended the city's Food Trades Vocational High School, studying cooking. But he dropped out at age 17 to join the United States Air Force. He spent four years learning to fix radios, first in Biloxi, Mississippi and then in Hawaii. Back in New York, Wally worked at several jobs, supporting his family, and attended business school. Finally, he earned a job with the famous William Morris Agency, as a Public Relations Manager. The agency promoted the careers of actors and actresses. Wally worked with Bobby Goldsboro, Dionne Warwick, Patti LaBelle, and other star performers.

While working as a manager for the William Morris Agency, Wally began baking and bagging chocolate chip cookies. He used a recipe from his Aunt Della, with whom he lived in New York. His clients loved the cookies. Several suggested that he open a cookie store where they could buy his sensational chocolate chip cookies.

Wally Amos did just that. He began the first in a series of FAMOUS AMOS CHOCOLATE CHIP COOKIES stores. He became as famous as his chocolate chip cookies.

Wally Amos sold most of the business. He does not fix Air Force radios anymore, but works as a volunteer for LITERACY VOLUNTEERS OF AMERICA. Literacy Volunteers are unpaid workers who give their time to help others learn to read and write. As a literacy volunteer, Wally Amos said "You cannot succeed, if you cannot read." He is helping the estimated 23 million Americans who have not learned to read and write.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Baal

[Baal]

I have PM'd the prick my number. Its guys like this maggot above who every time I hear that crap at a restaurant, I want to reach over and smack ###### out of em.

heres the pricks posts, learn about this knob 

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?ac...sult_type=posts

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anger management problem? You might be able to find many people who will tell you what a great guy you are and how that "maggot" deserves it....but....in truth your anger comes from you and not him....seems you do not manage your anger very well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HEY! Why I oughta....

[camerata]

OK, Ill call your  bluff, give me 5 examples of what YOU consider oppurtunities that have come your way.

I cant wait to here them.

I reckon a number of us could come up with 5 examples. In my case it was:

1. Working for a relatively progressive branch of the Thai Govt

2. Meeting members of the royal family

3. Writing a book

4. Representing Thailand at an international seminar

5. Writing a column for a national newspaper

6. Being interviewed for a cable TV channel

7. Writing a speech for a political heavyweight

8. Being an executive at a leading public company

None of this came about because I was given automatic respect when I got off the plane or mixed with hi-so people. It was more a matter of having some skills that people needed, and being in the right place at the right time.

It's a lot easier to carve out a niche for yourself as a farang expat who speaks Thai. Obvious examples are Jonas, the Swedish guy who became a mor-lam star and Tod Lavelle, who was/is a popular musician and celebrity.

[kat]

erm - cough, cough - I just want to make a comment on the thread's topic right now, because I have a feeling it's about to go permanently off

Wth all due respect, it sounds to me like you want to be a big fish in a small pond.

There are many of us here who have come to Thailand to escape the rat race, the social climbing thing. Most I'd say. We do not flaunt our MBA's etc, nor our past achievements. We have no desire to be big fish anymore, in any pond.

Status is not on our agenda. At all. Why come here seeking status. Coz it's easy to achieve? No real challenge is it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is an excellent post; couldn't agree more - thanks Red Eyes.

[Baal]

OK, Ill call your  bluff, give me 5 examples of what YOU consider oppurtunities that have come your way.

I cant wait to here them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I reckon a number of us could come up with 5 examples. In my case it was:

1. Working for a relatively progressive branch of the Thai Govt

2. Meeting members of the royal family

3. Writing a book

4. Representing Thailand at an international seminar

5. Writing a column for a national newspaper

6. Being interviewed for a cable TV channel

7. Writing a speech for a political heavyweight

8. Being an executive at a leading public company

None of this came about because I was given automatic respect when I got off the plane or mixed with hi-so people. It was more a matter of having some skills that people needed, and being in the right place at the right time.

It's a lot easier to carve out a niche for yourself as a farang expat who speaks Thai. Obvious examples are Jonas, the Swedish guy who became a mor-lam star and Tod Lavelle, who was/is a popular musician and celebrity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOl, waste of time considering the thread is about being given special opportunities because cough-cough one is a farang in Thailand and wouldnt have those opportunities in their homeland.

You proved my point exactly, in fact you said it ,

None of this came about because I was given automatic respect when I got off the plane or mixed with hi-so people. It was more a matter of having some skills that people needed, and being in the right place at the right time.

But hey, thanks for the resume!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

(except to children, whom you don't have to wai)

Apparently not the case...I'm reliably told that you can reply to a wai from a child with a low chest wai.

I was informed the former by some people from the North West but now talking to middle class Thais in Bkk I've been told the latter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps its an age thing, of the children I mean as in a 5 yr old or a 16 yr old? I have heard that you never wai children in return and I'm pretty sure thats the case.

BTW, middle class and from BKK dont mean they know any better, I imagine most Thais know the deal when it comes to waiing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With kids the return of a wai is an elective

[Tywais]

erm - cough, cough - I just want to make a comment on the thread's topic right now, because I have a feeling it's about to go permanently off 

Wth all due respect, it sounds to me like you want to be a big fish in a small pond.

There are many of us here who have come to Thailand to escape the rat race, the social climbing thing. Most I'd say. We do not flaunt our MBA's etc, nor our past achievements. We have no desire to be big fish anymore, in any pond.

Status is not on our agenda. At all. Why come here seeking status. Coz it's easy to achieve? No real challenge is it...

This is an excellent post; couldn't agree more - thanks Red Eyes.

I agree, good response Red Eyes. Using the 'fish' analogy, when I first moved here I did feel like a fish out of water. I also came here to get away from the stress back home and try to 'contribute' to the Thai society. Never gave a thought about my 'position' in the social hierarchy because it was such an alien thought to me. Now I have the status and respect by "earning" it and not thrown at me as the OP implies. It was through my technical skills and my willingness to accept the Thai culture and it's social implications and giving it my all that got me there.

Too bad an interesting topic could degenerate into a pssing match so easily.

[Pudgimelon]

Now I have the status and respect by "earning" it and not thrown at me as the OP implies. It was through my technical skills and my willingness to accept the Thai culture and it's social implications and giving it my all that got me there. 

Too bad an interesting topic could degenerate into a pssing match so easily.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I didn't imply that you get undeserved status simply by being farang. In fact I made it quite clear in my original post that if you acted like a pompous jerk or b.s.'d about skills you didn't possess, you'd almost certainly lose any respect or status you might have.

What I did imply is that you have a greater opportunity for your technical skills to have real meaning here, and that has absolutely nothing to do with social climbing (as some people have mistakenly tried to put those words in my mouth). Rather it has everything to do with your work having real value and a significant impact on the development of a nation.

It can and does happen here. There are many examples around, although I doubt many of them post here .

I do agree with you about the thread degenerating. This is an interesting topic agreed or disagreed. And its a shame some people are incapable of making a dissenting point without resorting to petty and small-minded name-calling.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[cdnvic]

This is an interesting topic so lets please lay off the flames. Camerata, outstanding post.

As you were ladies and gentlemen.... without the flames please.

cv

[Tywais]

No, I didn't imply that you get undeserved status simply by being farang.  In fact I made it quite clear in my original post that if you acted like a pompous jerk or b.s.'d about skills you didn't possess, you'd almost certainly lose any respect or status you might have.

My apologies. Your original post was a bit long and I must have lost the context somewhere along the way.

[Baal]

I believe I responded to your previous comments in a respectful, non-derogatory manner.  Yes, I made reference to a "barstool", but that was just to state the general fact that the world is rarely changed from the end of a bar

Karl Marx and Engels did all their best work at the pub, not only that I think the French Revolution, Hitler and quite a few others had movements that started in the

"Pub".

The Beer Hall Putsch was a failed coup d'état which occurred in the evening of Thursday, November 8 to the early afternoon of Friday, November 9, 1923, when the nascent Nazi party's Führer Adolf Hitler, the popular World War I General Erich Ludendorff, and other leaders of the Kampfbund, unsuccessfully tried to gain power in Munich, Bavaria, Germany. (A putsch is the German equivalent of a coup d'état, or the revolt of a small number of people, e.g. a military coup.)

He(KARL MARX) and Frederick Engels were a pair. They used to go pub-hopping along Tottenham Court Road. There were eighteen pubs, and they vowed to visit each and every one. By the time they got to the last, they were drunk enough that they began to throw cobblestones at streetlights --- until the police came running. To avoid being caught, they ducked down alleys and jumped over fences like a couple of rowdy schoolboys. O these kids!

*note, its always good to support ones blovation with examples that are factual and verifiable.

Ive nothing personal against you except the fact that you bloviate too much and contradict yourself a lot, which doesnt do much to support your POV.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Baal

[cdnvic]

Karl Marx and Engels did all their best work at the pub, not only that I think the French Revolution, Hitler and quite a few others had movements that started in the

"Pub".

Not to mention more benign activities like writing Alice in Wonderland (Lewis) and The Hobbit (Tolkien), much of both were written in Oxford pubs.

cv

[Mighty Mouse]

STATUS: "Social position, rank, relation to others, relative importance."

That's how my dictionary describes the word.

The OP wants us to believe that 'status' is not what he is talking about.

This was taken from his first post:

But because I'm a farang, I'm automatically accorded the same status that would be given to the highest of the hi-so. Granted, I can lose it all in about 15 seconds if I'm not careful, but the point is that it's there... if I want it.

Think about it guys, you have to admit that's a pretty cool opportunity. How often in your life are you given the chance to start completely over, but not at the bottom, rather at the TOP.

Which is why I think it's a bit sad and pathetic that so many people come to this country and promptly throw this gift into the gutter in their headlong rush right back down to the very bottom of the social pecking order.

From this post, I get the impression that he WANTS IT bad.

In post No. 20, he writes:

I would be more accurate to say that you're given the opportunity to attain that status.

and

Many Thais will still grant us high status (or the opportunity to earn it, which is something they don't give to every nationality

and still more, same post:

I would agree with a "loss of status" in the name of love and happiness, but sadly, you'll have to agree that this is NOT the reason many farang choose to pursue every food stall girl they see. Many guys are simply pissing away their status in pursuit of yet another strange new piece of as_.

and:

When I came here, I actually lost a bit of status because of my American girlfriend.....

Then we get to post 25 where he changes his words:

Its not about acquiring status. It's about using the gift of opportunity that is given to all of us in a way that benefits ourselves, our families, our communities and society in general.

If you read my post and all you got out of it was "he's a status-seeker", you really missed the mark.

Now, it's all about 'opportunity.'

Post 30:

I can't speak for everyone, but my own experience teaches me that opportunities and status exist here in truckloads for the farang willing and able to grab them.

Now we have a mixture of both words.

This is the snob part of the post:

I come here and suddenly I'm hanging out at weddings where the Minister of Defense is the guest of honor, and my wife skips out on a meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister to go snorkelling in Phi Phi with me, and I open my own business for the first time in my life, and I paid for it by tutoring the children of CEOs, Members of Parliament, and movie actresses.

I can't realistically imagine having the opportunity to do those kinds of things or meet those same kinds of people back in the States.

That really is fingers down the throat stuff.

In post 45 the OP states:

Sigh, again I will repeat that I am not really concerned with "status" so much as the lost opportunities many of us suffer because we don't see ourselves as existing "within" Thai society and therefore miss out on a chance to really matter here.

Are not the ex-pats who live in Thailand "existing within Thai society?"

Perhaps the OP considers that they need to rub shoulders with the Deputy Prime Minister rather than the Thai family who lives next door to them.

What "opportunities" could you possibly hope to gain from the next door neighbours. No 'status' in that.

Here he answers that question. Post 45 again:

If status is so unimportant and seeking it so contemptable, do you think that losing status is inversely laudable and having "low status" somehow better than having high status?

In post 64 the OP wags his finger:

There is absolutely no reason to flame me.

Wilko, Baal, Neeranam, Mighty Mouse, and others, you guys really need to cool your jets.

My name is there with the others.

Pidgimelon, I did not "flame" you. I did not threaten you. I did not insult you. I was not rude to you. I am merely stating my views about your posts.

I notice that you haven't reponded to any of them.

Maybe you would be kind enough to go back over my posts and inform me of what was so "flaming" upsetting to you.

Unfortunately, you have not convinced me that "status" seeking is not the main reason for this thread and your thinking behind this thread.

Was it not you who named this thread "The Loss Of Status?"

[gburns57au]

Pugde....your posts are all about status and place in society....

You are sitting in your Ivory Tower looking down on all the other ex pats because they have not achieved the things that you tell us you have.

Personally I am quite happy to be regarded for who I am and what I do, not because of who I know.

When your bubble bursts, Your high so friends will desert you in droves, My "Low so" Thai friends will still be there for me, no matter what.

At the moment you are riding high and good luck to you....remember the people you step on to reach your high status will still be there when you are on your way down.

Sir, you really are an A Class snob

[ray23]

Pugde....your posts are all about status and place in society....

You are sitting in your Ivory Tower looking down on all the other ex pats because they have not achieved the things that you tell us you have.

Personally I am quite happy to be regarded for who I am and what I do, not because of who I know.

When your bubble bursts, Your high so friends will desert you in droves, My "Low so" Thai friends will still be there for me, no matter what.

At the moment you are riding high and good luck to you....remember the people you step on to reach your high status will still be there when you are on your way down.

Sir, you really are an A Class snob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well the original thoughts were certainly interesting. I'm glad that the social events. the people I have worked for, who I have done lunch with don't define me.

I'm pleased that I have choosen my own path, had some accomplishments and some failures. Have contributed to society in the ways that I could and am pleased that I was able at times to effect others lives is a positive way. But the only one who needs to know that is me. In the end I have to live with who I am, no one else does.

land of opportunites for farrangs, hey I would go back to the states if I was interested in a career, where I can be paid a lot more for efforts. But that is just me.

Respect I'm more concerned that the guy who works on my motorcycle has true respect for me, then the P.M.

I want to know that each day that I go through that I have treated the people around me well, as long as they deserved to be respected by thier actions no matter what thier social status is.

Well this is my road, have nothing tp prove to anybody and I will never be impressed by a job title, but certain people can really impress me by thier actions, others no matter what family they are from, will ever impress me.

I hope I never forget that I'm a guest here, it is not my place to Thai's how live thier lives. What they do in this country they will reap the rewards for or pay the prices. On the other hand as long as I do no harm to anyome, I don't want anyone telling me how to live my life here, that is my business. I will reap the rewards or pay the prices

I wish the original poster nothing but the best in travel down his road. But as to my road up 2 me.

Edited December 3, 2005 by ray23

[Sir Burr]

I have read pudgimelon's OP and other posts, and frankly, I keep getting a mental picture of Hyacinth Bucket out of the comedy show 'Keeping up appearances".

Edited December 3, 2005 by Sir Burr

[camerata]

LOl, waste of time considering the thread is about being given special opportunities because cough-cough one is a farang in Thailand and wouldnt have those opportunities in their homeland.

That's exactly the point I was making. Not one of those things would have happened to me in Farangland because I was just an average Joe with average skills there. Here, because I'm competing with relatively few people with the same skills, I got more opportunities.

I think the same is true of Jonas and Tod Lavelle. Back home they would probably be amateur musicians, but here they combined music with some previously hidden talent and became stars. Simply being different (i.e. farang) was part of their success.

Edited December 3, 2005 by camerata

[Sir Burr]

I have read pudgimelon's OP and other posts, and frankly, I keep getting a mental picture of Hyacinth Bucket out of the comedy show 'Keeping up appearances".

........with just a touch of Victor Meldrew.

[Pudgimelon]

STATUS: "Social position, rank, relation to others, relative importance."

That's how my dictionary describes the word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well Mickey Mouse, you certainly spent a lot of time putting together that post, unfortunately you could have stopped at your first sentence.

It is painfully obvious that your definition of the word "status" is too narrow, and all your supposed objections can be summed up as retorts based a misunderstanding of what I said (due to an overly narrow definiton of the word).

Your definition of the word "status" seems to only include the negative aspects of the word associated with fawning courtiers, brown-nosing, shameless ladder-climbers and other slimey, distasteful kinds of people.

I have a broader definition. Perhaps you should consider buying a new dictionary (or at least reading a bit further down the page on dictionary.com).

Status can be:

1. Position relative to that of others; standing.

2. High standing; prestige.

3. Law. The legal character or condition of a person or thing.

4. A state of affairs; situation.

You're right, status can me position relative to another, but it doesn't ONLY mean that. It also means prestige and a state of affairs. I was talking about all three in my original post. Although you wrongly attribute some desire to "acquire" status on my part.

Prestige, esteem, honor, status... you do not need to "acquire" these things in Thailand, they are freely given to any farang who DESERVES them. Like I said in my original post, we are conferred a similar "status" (but if wish, you can use the word ESTEEM if you find you can't unstick yourself from the negative connotations you have about the word status) as the one given to monks and teachers. Both groups are customarily HONORED in Thai culture.

Get it now? It's not about ladder-climbing like some hi-so wannabe. It's about having prestige and esteem given simply because you are farang. But don't take my word for it, ask any Thai, they'll tell you the same thing. Western farang have a special status in this country. That IS the state of affairs in Thailand.

So when I named this thread "The Loss of Status", I was talking about:

a. The loss of personal status when people lose respect for you and your position relative to others declines. Something that I don't believe needs to happen or that is foolishly sacrificed for short-term self-indulgence.

b. The loss of prestige and esteem that all farang suffer from the actions of a few, which perpetuate many negative stereotypes.

c. The loss of the current state of affairs as the honor we receive from Thais is eroded by the selfish behaviors of a few (for example: fly-by-night teachers who care little about the upheaval and damage they cause).

[Morden]

As you say, it is up to each one of us to behave as he sees fit and to seek whatever he wants in Thailand. It is a pity, though, to see some of the loutish behaviour that lets us all down. I don't dismiss it as a characteristic only of the young. I think that it's more the product of a repressed Western background -

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Repressed WESTERN background?

Compared to what? Thais throwing napkins on the ground to get a footprint?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote

I was thinking principally about limitations on behaviour reinforced by law. In the UK you can do very little without a licence or permit. Employers and business people are hemmed in by employment law and public and products liability issues. There are legally enforceable standards for just about everything. I accept that at least some of it is necessary, especially when I see the behaviour of Brits when they go abroad and think that they can do as they wish. On the other hand, there's too much control and I can understand why some people just go loopy when they get the chance.

The level of street crime is another repressive influence. We've just seen a Court case about a young lad killed by having an ice axe smashed into his head. He had been waiting for a bus with his friends. There are things that we don't do and places that we don't go to anymore in the UK in case some head case leaps out and ends it all for us.

Thailand, as was once the case in the UK, manages without so many restraints because most people, at least in the area that I know, respect themselves and others and would not want to disgrace themselves in the eyes of their neighbours.

As for nappies, I don't know what you mean. I have seen mothers dumping them in car parks in the UK, though.

[Pudgimelon]

Karl Marx and Engels did all their best work at the pub, not only that I think the French Revolution, Hitler and quite a few others had movements that started in the

"Pub".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, such "sterling" examples of pub-work you chose to make your case.

I'm not suprised Communism was spawned in a bar, given its propensity towards totalitarianism, brutal repression, genocidal pogroms, and half-baked economic schemes. Sounds just like something a barfly would come up with.

Oh and then there's Hitler, wow, you're so right, the world is a MUCH better place as a result of his "bar work".

And I'm sure all the innocent people who lost their heads during the mass anarchy of the French Revolution appreciated the solemn musing of the Barstool Sages who started it all.

Yeah, I guess I'll have to be more careful with what I say around here. I probably should have said, "The world is rarely changed FOR THE BETTER from the end of a bar".

Tolkien (and all great writers) are, of course, exempt from that statement.

[Pudgimelon]

Thailand, as was once the case in the UK, manages without so many restraints because most people, at least in the area that I know, respect themselves and others and would not want to disgrace themselves in the eyes of their neighbours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point. Kind of makes you think that we won't ever be consider truly part of Thai society until we start caring about things like that too.

Help preserve the social order without the need for smothering legality.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[plachon]

Because of your relatively narrow social circle and your snobbish attitudes to those of lesser wealth and opportunity than yourself, your wife and "hi-so" friends, you have no real concept of what attitudes and social mores exist for the vast majority of Thai society (ie. the sort that work as guards in your condo, serve in Dairy Queen or Soi Nana and came from a dusty village in Isaan).

And I can tell you with a relative degree of certainty, that when Joe Farang steps off the plane and by some strange twist of fate (perhaps he fell for Miss Dairy Queen) rocks up in said village, he is not waied as some great white, cargo-trader hero, but because the good citizens of the village mostly perceive him as some timely meal-ticket for their family (not in ALL cases though, I admit). However, there will also be a not insignificant part of the village popn. who will not wai a farang at all, but call him an "it" ("man"), 'a dog", or 'ee khwai" and look down on his foreigness, even if he happens to be a big knob back home. In many cases, they are probably right, but they should reserve judgement, just like the OP. However, as these are insignificant and low-status Thais (who are "not worth the effort of even dating" in his opinion), then he won't be interested in what I have to write.

[camerata]

This is an interesting topic so lets please lay off the flames.

Exactly. No need to close a good topic because a couple of flamers can't be civil. I think one of the OP's comments...

But it becomes my business when people behave themselves in public in a way that negatively impacts me. And the sad reality in Thailand is that all farang are lumped into the same group and stereotyped accordingly. So the few bad apples (or thousands in this case) end up spoiling it for the rest of us.

... touches on an issue we see almost every day on ThaiVisa. Half of the members have made a long-term commitment to Thailand and half have only a passing interest in the place. So the long-term residents tend to scream at anyone who overstays their visa or behaves badly at Immigration, because in the long run it affects the Thais' opinion of farang as a whole.

Some of us have put in a lot of effort to fit in with Thai society and show Thais we aren't like the stereotypes - and the effort is worthwhile. So when we see some tourist refuse to stand up for the national anthem in the cinema, we really cringe. But the fact is, many of the tourists and short-timers will never really care what the Thais think.

On the subject of "status," in the company I work for I am always "Khun Camerata," never "Phee Camerata," even though I speak Thai well and taxi drivers call me "Phee" (or Nai). There are Thais older than me, some more senior than me, and Asian foreigners, but they are all "Phee." Only me and the CEO are always Khun. When I asked someone why this was, they said, "Oh, because you're a farang!"

[Pudgimelon]

Well this is my road, have nothing tp prove to anybody and I will never be impressed by a job title, but certain people can really impress me by thier actions, others no matter what family they are from, will ever impress me.

I hope I never forget that I'm a guest here, it is not my place to Thai's how live thier lives. What they do in this country they will reap the rewards for or pay the prices. On the other hand as long as I do no harm to anyome, I don't want anyone telling me how to live my life here, that is my business. I will reap the rewards or pay the prices

I wish the original poster nothing but the best in travel down his road. But as to my road up 2 me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not about impressing people for the sake of impressing people.

It's about making a positive contribution to our adopted home. If you've done your bit back home and have come here to just kick back and retire, that's cool, I'm down with that, homie.

My comments are more directed at the people who come here with no real plan, sort of fall into a long-term stay and then just piss about like they own the place (without actually contributing anything productive). That kind of nonsense is a real shame.

Again, I think it's foolish to sacrifice life-long opportunities in the name of short-term self-indulgence. I'd expect that from teenagers, but we're all adults here, right?

How about a more mature and productive outlook on our stay here?

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you 100% on your "I'm only a guest here" comment. That's a cop-out.

If I come here, raise a family, pay taxes, and buy a house/car/whatever, then this is my HOME and I have every right to have my voice heard in MY new country.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[bkkmadness]

Look, I'll be the first to admit that the girl at my local Dairy Queen is a total HOTTIE, and one of the cleaning girls in my building is also pretty adorable. However, you know as well as I do, that in Thai society, those girls are in a certain "class" and if you start dating them, you insert yourself right into that class with them.

Again, not saying that's right, just saying that's reality.

This is the part of Pudgies post that I just can't quite sit right with. It's of course true, and getting a wife from a nice well to do middle class will obviously serve you better status in certain parts of this narrow minded Thai society than the girl from Dairy Queen, but is that a status I need, opportuinties I want, as I'd have to give up my whole ethic code for it?

In fact if I did join the ranks of higher Thai society and pandered to their narrow views about the poorer people in this country I would feel ashamed, and that shame and lack of self respect is something I cannot swap for someone else respect.

I can imagine if I told my Mum who also works in shops, or my bus driving Dad that I really like a girl, but cannot date or marry her because she is a low class Thai from a poor background they would feel absolutely ashamed of me and I imagine felt they done a bad job bringing me up. In fact I can quite see my Mum imagining herself in the same class back in the UK as the Dairy Queen girl and consider me a real scumbag for considering myself better because I'm white and wealthier.

As you say your from the poor background as well, I have to ask, the people that considered you low class in the West are the same kind of people you choose to pander to here.

I'm not sure I could live with becoming those I hate because of my own selfish needs of acheiving status and using that as a tool to weild power. And I'm not sure how you have turned that way Pudgie, but it is a way I have seen many farangs turn over here.

I've lost count the amount of times that a farang has so proudly boasted of their wife being Chinese Thai rather than being prouder of other attributes (smart, funny etc.), her class or ethnicity seems to be the biggest draw for them and I know many of them would never have thought like that at home. But once they marry into a certain class they suddenly take on the same snobbish attitudes of it.

That something I can't live with, and I could never show such disrespect to another human being by considering her to low status to date because another person, a persons beliefs that I have always stood strong against has said so.

I have a basic rule in life, I only want to achieve status or respect from people who I respect also. In 1950s America, I would not have spat on a black girl to gain respect of the whites around me. A strong example, but one that does ring true when toned down to the 'dating' a low class Thai scenario. I could not change my (hopefully decent) moral code, to fit in with those that.

So after reading that Pudgie I have to ask you at what cost will you pay to achieve that status, how many people will you have to disrespect first? And considering a girl to lowly to marry because she works in a shop is a lack of respect.

One of this countrys problems is the lack of respect for the lower classes, is that somethin you wish to amplify? Is becoming part of the problem really moving Thailand forward in the way you hope it moves forward?

I wonder if all farangs only dated middle class Chinese Thai girls because the others are not worthy of us, what kind of example would that set to this country? Would the poorer parts of Thai society consider themselves segregated from not only the wealthier Thais but also by the foreign community as well? Is that an image we wish to promote in our quest for status and power? Is that the way you want to be?

[britmaveric]

Karl Marx and Engels did all their best work at the pub, not only that I think the French Revolution, Hitler and quite a few others had movements that started in the

"Pub".

Not to mention more benign activities like writing Alice in Wonderland (Lewis) and The Hobbit (Tolkien), much of both were written in Oxford pubs.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many a pint in said mentioned pubs in Oxford!!

Pudgi - you should have stopped after post 1, however I admit I am enjoying the deeper hole you are digging yourself, keep posting.

Edited December 3, 2005 by britmaveric