The Loss Of Status

[wilko]

Histroy lesson?

Being American, I grew up in a culture where we idolized our immigrant forebearers (we don't idolize CURRENT immigrants, and we never have, but that's not the point).

When you say "we never have" - do you mean that in the 30s you didn't but now you do; so in 70 years time you'll treat the current immigrants with the same reverence?

Perhaps you should also look at the relationship between Thailand and the West over the last 200 years...

[autonomous_unit]

Gappui, I don't think people are actually criticizing the royal families. The damage of a hierarchical or class-based society is perpetrated by those social climbers who wish to think of themselves as being closer to the leaders than others, not by people in real leadership positions who appreciate the significance of their social obligations. The climber is too preoccupied with the climb to consider what does it mean to be at the top...

Anyway, I think this thread approaches disaster because the original post expresses an attitude which smacks of cultural imperialism to many of us. At a strictly personal level, judging someone by how much (or how little) they strive to improve themselves is not very significant. We can exchange a few barbs or chuckle at one another, but really, who cares? Some people value or admire charging ambition, while others deride it. Many will change their opinion of it during their lives. However, judging all farang in Thailand by how hard they press the apparent advantages of their arrival suggests some sort of righteous cultural entitlement. Or, perhaps the OP disbelieves any notion of ethics or moral conduct that might stand in conflict to the code of greed and power? Irrespective of race, does he lament the lazy thug who has an opportunity to fleece someone in a back alley and who wastes his opportunities?

The sad irony here is that these farang who "should" be trying harder are supposedly ones who were held back by a class system in the west! Throughout this thread, we keep noting that there hardly is any class system in the west, yet suddenly those "oppressed" farang souls are supposed to get a foothold in the Asian class system and make something of themselves? How magnanimous! This seems like a terrible lack of empathy to me. There is some social mobility here, but it is a harsh crucible compared to the west. I have to respect, for sheer determination, the Thais who, not being born high in it, manage to work their way through the system here; even more, I have to respect those who do so while retaining a sense of empathy.

Howevery, the tragedy I see is the institutionalized system that prevents new ideas and better ways of doing things from interfering with this "Thai way." The economy as a whole, which could materially improve the lives of all Thais, is constantly bled by the inefficiencies and graft of a multitude of climbers and hangers on. The plight or success of a few farang visitors is but a drop in the bucket. The only ones I have a real disdain for are the high-powered foreign "consultants" who belly up with the other parasites to engage in this game of face where accurate assessment and efficiency are taboo subjects. Capitalism is an inhernetly amoral subject, but I am still struggling with the question of when and how its application can become moral or immoral.

This thread makes me recall the other one recently on economic disparity. I liken our relative wealth to a weapon (or a tool). The point shouldn't be to debate whether one uses it or not, but rather how one uses it. I think that is lost somewhere in this discussion.

[autonomous_unit]

Histroy lesson?

When you say "we never have" -  do you mean that in the 30s you didn't but now you do; so in 70 years time you'll treat the current immigrants with the same reverence?

Perhaps you should also look at the relationship between Thailand and the West over the last 200 years...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ha, I think he means the WASPs revere the WASPy Pilgrims but despise the later arriving Swedes and Poles... The Swedes accept the WASPs, revere their own Swede forbearers, and despise the later arriving Poles... The Poles accept the WASPs, dislike the Swedes, revere the Pole forbearers, and dislike the Italians. Etc.

The only saving grace is the "melting pot" where these identifications are diffused until we like the older ancestors and question the new arrivals. Unfortunately, this means that stratifying urge in human nature is served by other distinguishing marks like wealth, politics, and "family name". A few more centuries undisturbed, and I'm afraid we'll have the same class sytems as the old world.

[Mighty Mouse]

Pudgimelon,

You are now doing your best to distance yourself from your earlier 'status' statements so I see no point in harping on this issue further.

What I find disappointing about this thread, is your 'holier than thou' attitude. You give the impression that you are comparing your values with those of others and you find the others lacking in substance.

These are some of the statements you have made in this regard.

My comments are more directed at the people who come here with no real plan, sort of fall into a long-term stay and then just piss about like they own the place (without actually contributing anything productive). That kind of nonsense is a real shame.

Again, I think it's foolish to sacrifice life-long opportunities in the name of short-term self-indulgence. I'd expect that from teenagers, but we're all adults here, right?

How about a more mature and productive outlook on our stay here?

****************************************************************

I certainly hope that when I'm in my golden years, I'm not farting around waiting to die. I would like to hope that I'd still be living an active and dynamic life as an ESTEEMED member of MY community (HERE!), and not as some socially-segregated misfit.

****************************************************************

All those retirees flock down to Florida to vegetate until they kick the bucket. And they sure as heck don't want to pay for any taxes and they sure as heck always vote with THEIR best interests in mind (and not the best interests of their new adopted home)

Comments such as those above will do little to gain you any respect.

Was there any real need for you to put those belittling thoughts in writing?

You further stated:

Is this our home or not?

The answer to that question (for me, at least), is "yes". And if it's my home you better d_mn well believe I'm going to participate. I'm not at the point in my life where I want to be put out to pasture. I've still got plenty of miles in me and the great thing about Thailand is that here, we all have got an OPPORTUNITY to make a real contribution, one that would be on par with the great immigrant generations of the American 1930's.

People from all walks of life achieve things. Some achievements are substantial, others relatively minor. It's not so much what you achieve, it's how you achieve it.

The quiet achievers are the ones that gain my admiration.

The ones who go out into the world, get things done without stepping on toes.

The ones who don't seek the glory.

The ones who don't need to brag about how good they are.

Pudgimelon, I would like to think that you could fit into this category, but unfortunately your brashness will prevent it.

[ray23]

Pudgimelon,

You are now doing your best to distance yourself from your earlier 'status' statements so I see no point in harping on this issue further.

What I find disappointing about this thread, is your 'holier than thou' attitude. You give the impression that you are comparing your values with those of others and you find the others lacking in substance.

These are some of the statements you have made in this regard.

My comments are more directed at the people who come here with no real plan, sort of fall into a long-term stay and then just piss about like they own the place (without actually contributing anything productive). That kind of nonsense is a real shame.

Again, I think it's foolish to sacrifice life-long opportunities in the name of short-term self-indulgence. I'd expect that from teenagers, but we're all adults here, right?

How about a more mature and productive outlook on our stay here?

****************************************************************

I certainly hope that when I'm in my golden years, I'm not farting around waiting to die. I would like to hope that I'd still be living an active and dynamic life as an ESTEEMED member of MY community (HERE!), and not as some socially-segregated misfit.

****************************************************************

All those retirees flock down to Florida to vegetate until they kick the bucket. And they sure as heck don't want to pay for any taxes and they sure as heck always vote with THEIR best interests in mind (and not the best interests of their new adopted home)

Comments such as those above will do little to gain you any respect.

Was there any real need for you to put those belittling thoughts in writing?

You further stated:

Is this our home or not?

The answer to that question (for me, at least), is "yes". And if it's my home you better d_mn well believe I'm going to participate. I'm not at the point in my life where I want to be put out to pasture. I've still got plenty of miles in me and the great thing about Thailand is that here, we all have got an OPPORTUNITY to make a real contribution, one that would be on par with the great immigrant generations of the American 1930's.

People from all walks of life achieve things. Some achievements are substantial, others relatively minor. It's not so much what you achieve, it's how you achieve it.

The quiet achievers are the ones that gain my admiration.

The ones who go out into the world, get things done without stepping on toes.

The ones who don't seek the glory.

The ones who don't need to brag about how good they are.

Pudgimelon, I would like to think that you could fit into this category, but unfortunately your brashness will prevent it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pudgimelon, sorry dude you have now lost me completly. Comparing this culture to the American Culture is like apple and oranges. America is a baby in this world Thailand is not. I think you could achieve a lot more toward your goals if you were to just go do the work and not waste valuable time trying to convience the world or yourself that you are right

I think we are just going to have to agree not to agree. I will wish you luck and go back to my Mia Bpen Lia, I earned before I got here.

[j634]

Hi all,

I don't post here often, but this is very interesting for me. I have been in Thailand for a little over 2 years. I like it here and enjoy myself. Next year I will retire from investments I have made and live my life to the fullest. The money from my investments all came from Thailand, as I had nothing when I came here. I did not seek social status nor did I want it. My wife's family is poor and I respect them tremendously. They care for a lot of people with not much money. I will give forward my money when I can. My wife will also be fixed financially due to the investments I made for her. We cannot change this society overnite or my life time I think.

This society is hinged on what you have and have not. How you look. How much gold you have. What kind of car you drive etc...

Me personally. I don't care what others think of me. I left that behind in the US.

Your comments about Florida are way off base. That is my home. The retirees who come there actually give more than you think.

My only wish is, if I marry and raise my family here I want a home and some basic rights. Not much to ask for I think. We live here as a guest yearly. Unless you get PR or something.

So, what is everyone doing to change Thai society or their thinking? I have yet to see in anyones post what they do to make things better.

If you own a business would you pay a Thai person more than the 170 baht a day?

just my thoughts,

j634

[siamesekitty]

I get your point, Pudgi. Sorry to see how your posts have been misinterpreted.

I agree that people should be treated equally and you wouldn't want to associated with shallow, social-climbing people anyway, but that's not what he's talking about, really. The "status" mentioned in his original post is not in the "khun ying khun nai" sense. He's referring to the general "respect" that farangs receive (or maybe don't receive) collectively as a group here in Thailand.

Some comments by camerata, Gappui, ObladiOblada touch upon the real issue Pudgimelon's trying to discuss here.

being a farang in Thailand can give you a headstart in Thailand.

there are many other social factors that will raise or lower your status after your "farangness" starts to wear off.

Yep! You're initially given the benefit of the doubt, then, depending on your behaviour, you can either gain or lose respect. In many cases, it's the latter.

Some of us have put in a lot of effort to fit in with Thai society and show Thais we aren't like the stereotypes - and the effort is worthwhile.

But the fact is, many of the tourists and short-timers will never really care what the Thais think.

And due to their large numbers and visibility, they have the biggest influence on what the Thais think.

we have almost no rights here. I believe the Thai Chinese managed to acquire citizenship and property rights, why not us? When the Chinese came here they busied themselves setting up business associations and support networks.  We don't.

We're a loose collection of individuals all looking out for our own best interests and not concerning ourselves with whether or not our actions impact other people.

Exactly what went through my mind before seeing this post. Initially, the Chinese were looked down upon by the Thais because they came to Thailand with nothing (in Thai they say เสือผืนหมอนใบ, literally "with only a mat and a pillow"). But their hard work led to accumulated fortunes, which, along with their strong community networks, elevated them to their current status.

However, farangs doing business in Thailand, from what I've noticed at least, like to เหยียบหัวกัน (step on somebody's head while climbing) and backstab each other rather than make an effort to help out a fellow farang. Why is that?

The punter who bails out halfway through a school semester makes it harder for other teachers to get treated fairly. The moron who launches a tirade at the visa office makes it tougher on the rest of us to get treated with respect when we present our cases.

I also think that Thais have seen way too many sights of loud, red-faced sexpats, reeking of alchohol, openly fondling their young scantily-clad ladies in public.

Perhaps you could've entitled it "a loss of respect" (instead of status) to more accurately make your point ?

Ditto.

[think_too_mut]

Siamesekitty,

great post of yours.

[jingjingna]

Pudgi,

I browse this forum quite often but rarely feel compelled to post a response. I am on your wavelength and agree with your initial post, which is SPOT ON!!

Excellent post and food for thought for those who can grasp your points!

[britmaveric]

Pudgi - curious what would you do tomorrow if all farangs were booted out of Thailand? (Unlikely but not beyond the realm of possibility)

[Pudgimelon]

Siamesekitty,  great post of yours. 

Agreed. This thread is a lot more civilized when it remains on-topic.

From here on out, I'm going to just ignore the people who misinterpret (intentionally, most likely) my choice of words.

Some of us have put in a lot of effort to fit in with Thai society and show Thais we aren't like the stereotypes - and the effort is worthwhile. But the fact is, many of the tourists and short-timers will never really care what the Thais think.

And due to their large numbers and visibility, they have the biggest influence on what the Thais think.

Part of that may be the fault of long-timers too. Google a bit on traveling to Thailand and its very hard to find blogs or websites written by farang for farang which DON'T feature tips on barfining or where to find the cheapest beer.

Imagine if you googled for tips on nightlife in New York and all you found was tips on where the best streetwalkers congregated or how to marry a Bronx girl without running afoul of her family's "sick Lincoln Towncar" scam.

It'd be kinda silly wouldn't it? I mean New York has A LOT more going on at night that its hooker/strip-club and/or bar scene and focusing on that alone would be selling a great city short. And yet that's what you find on Bangkok. WE (meaning the net-saavy long-term expats) present an imagine of Thailand to the rest of the world that only encourages more red-faced gropers to hop on a plane. We do this by either posting that stuff or remaining silent about our alternative experiences.

I know from personal experience that there is a heck of a lot more to Bangkok nightlife that a cab ride between Silom and Nana, but that kind of information is exceedingly rare when compared to the abundant wealth of information on go-go bars and pub-crawling. Aren't we selling Thailand a bit short? Shouldn't we be out there lauding the out of the way little pubs with great atmosphere, or the best house bands, or the restaurant with the best fish, or karaoke clubs with the best sound system and cleanest microphones, or the theaters with the most comfortable seats or the coolest places to catch a real Muay Thai match (and not some stupid tourist show), etc....?

That's certainly something many of us could start doing. We could all start blogging our adventures (and misadventures) here so that people get a truer picture of life in Thailand.

I don't think it would ever discourage the party crowd from coming (only an increase in the price of beer will do that), but it may encourage some more quality individuals to consider Thailand as their next move.

Exactly what went through my mind before seeing this post. Initially, the Chinese were looked down upon by the Thais because they came to Thailand with nothing (in Thai they say เสือผืนหมอนใบ, literally "with only a mat and a pillow"). But their hard work led to accumulated fortunes, which, along with their strong community networks, elevated them to their current status.

However, farangs doing business in Thailand, from what I've noticed at least, like to เหยียบหัวกัน (step on somebody's head while climbing) and backstab each other rather than make an effort to help out a fellow farang. Why is that?

Because we aren't all from the same place and we often have competing interests. The retirees don't want to be bothered. The family men just want to make a decent living in peace. The party guys don't give a d_mn about anyone but themselves and their barstool "mates". The backpackers only care about finding the cheapest _______(whatever). And the corporate transfers living in an entirely separate universe.

Add to that the fact that the Brits can't stand Americans for being able to speak English better than they do. The Australians can't stand the Brits and Americans for being able to speak in an intelligible manner. And the Canadians are just too busy trying to convince everyone they are native English speakers, but since it doesn't snow here, the Canadian advantage of being the best name-in-snow writers in the world is a moot point. It's pretty obvious why we don't get along .

Just kidding guys, don't get your panties in an uproar. The point I'm making is that while Thais may lump us all into the same group, we are in fact several different and competing minorities.

Perhaps what needs to happen is for long-term farang to take on a new "ethnic identity" and leave their old one back in their home country. Back there we might be British (zzzzz... huh? wah?) or Scottish (is there a difference?) or Australian (oy! mate! watch me open a Fosters with me boomerang! ) or Canadian (bawahahah!) or American (saviors of the planet) or even Welsh (god help those poor b_stards!), but when we decide to emmigrate to Thailand we should put aside those differences and except a larger, singluar identity: "farang".

Seriously, we really should start working together collectively to improve the "respect" our community gets within Thailand. If we intend to stay here long-term, then we should stop behaving as separate groups and start behaving as one community.

Of course, Americans should be put in charge of that group since we're the only ones with an ounce of common sense!

[ray23]

Hi all,

I don't post here often, but this is very interesting for me. I have been in Thailand for a little over 2 years. I like it here and enjoy myself. Next year I will retire from investments I have made and live my life to the fullest. The money from my investments all came from Thailand, as I had nothing when I came here. I did not seek social status nor did I want it. My wife's family is poor and I respect them tremendously. They care for a lot of people with not much money. I will give forward my money when I can. My wife will also be fixed financially due to the investments I made for her. We cannot change this society overnite or my life time I think.

This society is hinged on what you have and have not. How you look. How much gold you have. What kind of car you drive etc...

Me personally. I don't care what others think of me. I left that behind in the US.

Your comments about Florida are way off base. That is my home. The retirees who come there actually give more than you think.

My only wish is, if I marry and raise my family here I want a home and some basic rights. Not much to ask for I think. We live here as a guest yearly. Unless you get PR or something.

So, what is everyone doing to change Thai society or their thinking? I have yet to see in anyones post what they do to make things better.

If you own a business would you pay a Thai person more than the 170 baht a day?

just my thoughts,

j634 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll give you a small example of how to help where you can I don't own a business but I do have fulltime house keeper with very little to do two adults two bedroom home, Yes I pay above that and I also pay her two daughters college expenses.

A Young hard working guy we know at the local bowling alley was sick last Christmaas and misses work he got a Christmas card with 2000 in it to help make of for his lot earnings.

I tried to watch for these things I don't throw money around I don't believe is the right way to gain repsect, when I see a person who is deserving and needs a hand not a hand out I will help as long a I can.

I have also done volunteer teaching and that sort of thing.

I have worked with a group of farrangs that each month helps out public schools. with thier needs soemtimes that can means desks chairs whatever.

I have pariciapted in a local Christmas party each year for kids in the area.

You know I' m gong to stop there I feel like an idiot these things out they are not done for recognition, there are done becuase I feel it is the right thing to do.

Compared to other retirees here I do very little, there are many that do much more. Your not going to hear about them they don't do it for recognition or to improve thier status, they do it because thay can

Not let me tell you what I don't do, I don't drink. I don't have trophy wife, but don't begrudge anyone who does, thats thier business not mine. I never never cheat a Thai or anyone else for that matter. If a Thai does something for me I pay them. But there are many out her will not let me pay them, I will not insult with money but I find a way to show my apprecation.

If I'm in a business deal these day with Thai's I don't let them take advantage of me because I'm not Thai. Never be a Cheap Cahrlie, but don't throw money areound either, Thai's like it for obvoios reason but he don't respect someone who is stupid.

Any Thai who does business with me and is fair will always be recommended to others and will always get my business, even if at times I have to pay a bit more. Yes I Wia people a matter of courtoues and respect.

Do I get angry and yell at times ###### betcha billy bob, I'm not Thai and I don't pretend that I am. Iam here learning everyday, some of the things I see Thai do are amazing, they simply do somethigs better than I can. At times I can do things better then they do it. It can become a real balancing act.

Does any of thhis make me any better then the sex tourist who has no desire to learn anything about Thailand no, it's a completly different thing If those guys decided to live here they would more then likely try to fit in. You know you hear all the time from the upper group of Thais saying they are cleaning up the sex trade here. Anybody believe that. They want that tourist dollar and there are a lot of them.

Us little retired guys who spend our million a year, in our own communties are not taken into the calculation. Lets face it the drive is to get that guy to come here for three weeks drop 500K and get out of here. Those who know a individual understand that we are different adn we are respectedc by the poeple who know us. But for those don't know us, we are always the drunk whore mongering tourist.

A good example here in Udon my wife and I are a common site, if I go by something myself the first thing I hear from the shop owners is where is your wife?

On the other hand my wife and I went on a short vacation to Hua Hin, it was obvious that all the Thai's beleived he was a bar girl and she dresses in a very conservative manner. What can you do about that not a darn thing. Thai's have preconcieved notion of us and as long as the country not only welcomes but seeks out the sex tourist it is not going to change.

In short I have an effect in the small group of people that have a contact with, but so do the tourist and tehre are lot moer of them them I.

None of the things that I do are done for business reason's or to improve my stature in the communty, it is and has always been the way I live my life.

Each of us are different people and each of us have postive and negative aspects about us.

It may be very important for some to achieve grand things in Thailand it is not for me I would rather just keep on doing the best I can to be a good human being. no matter what country I am in.

I will say one thing about this post it sure has a got a lot of activity. As my Thia friends say my head hurt I think to much

[wilko]

Ha, I think he means the WASPs revere the WASPy Pilgrims but despise the later arriving Swedes and Poles... The Swedes accept the WASPs, revere their own Swede forbearers, and despise the later arriving Poles... The Poles accept the WASPs, dislike the Swedes, revere the Pole forbearers, and dislike the Italians. Etc.

The only saving grace is the "melting pot" where these identifications are diffused until we like the older ancestors and question the new arrivals. Unfortunately, this means that stratifying urge in human nature is served by other distinguishing marks like wealth, politics, and "family name". A few more centuries undisturbed, and I'm afraid we'll have the same class sytems as the old world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, I thought he meant he didn't like the Mexican and other new generation immigrants - no class or status see....

BTW - I tend to think that on the Old World/New World class thing what happened in the States was simply to swap or substitute money for birth whilst still keeping what was basically the same system.

There are still dynasties - e.g. Kennedy/ Bush/ Getty /Rockefeller the only difference being in Europe they don't give them any real power…

[Pudgimelon]

Histroy lesson?

Being American, I grew up in a culture where we idolized our immigrant forebearers (we don't idolize CURRENT immigrants, and we never have, but that's not the point).

When you say "we never have" - do you mean that in the 30s you didn't but now you do; so in 70 years time you'll treat the current immigrants with the same reverence?

Perhaps you should also look at the relationship between Thailand and the West over the last 200 years...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Americans always "haze" newcomers. From the Know-Nothing Party of the 1800's which supported the Jim Crow laws not only to keep blacks out of the political process but also Irish (or worse) Germans. Fast-forward a hundred years and those same groups are now lauded. Heck, we even celebrate a national holiday in which everyone pretends to be Irish for a day (a thought that would have been laughable at the turn of the last century).

These days you've got the "English First" crowd who want to hold back the "browning" of America by enacting literacy laws that are often just modern updates of Jim Crow laws. Mexican Americans are called "wetbacks" and depicted in the movies as greasy gangsters and Asian Americans are called "gooks" and depicts them as goofy, effeminate nerds.

And yet in a hundred years, Americans will be celebrating those two groups as well.

So what I was saying is that I grew up in a country that idolizes its immigrant forebearers, but I'm also fully aware that my country has always given the current group of immigrants a very, very hard time.

[Pudgimelon]

Oh, I thought he meant he didn't like the Mexican and other new generation immigrants - no class or status see....

BTW - I tend to think that on the Old World/New World class thing what happened in the States was simply to swap or substitute money for birth whilst still keeping what was basically the same system.

There are still dynasties - e.g. Kennedy/ Bush/ Getty /Rockefeller the only difference being in Europe they don't give them any real power…

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wilko, enough with the off-topic sniping. There's nothing in my post that could be interpreted as "I don't like Mexicans", so quit making stuff up.

Stay on topic or go find a new hobby.

Oh, and by the way, my brother-in-law is Mexican. He's an acclaimed artist and architect and he got that way by working his butt off for the past 20 years. When my sister married him, he was nothing but a starving artist and they struggled through some harsh financial times together.

I have nothing but respect for Mexican immigrants who struggle against incredible odds to carve out a decent life and give their children opportunities. (However, I am aware that most other Americans are the REASON behind those incredible odds).

In fact, if you'd like to reply on topic, you might want to talk about the way the disparate Latin American community (which is also very diverse and yet gets lumped into one group by American stereotyping, just as farang do in Thailand), somehow manages to find a collective identity and work together to help each other out.

Why don't farang in Thailand do the same thing?

[wilko]

Oh, I thought he meant he didn't like the Mexican and other new generation immigrants - no class or status see....

BTW - I tend to think that on the Old World/New World class thing what happened in the States was simply to swap or substitute money for birth whilst still keeping what was basically the same system.

There are still dynasties - e.g. Kennedy/ Bush/ Getty /Rockefeller the only difference being in Europe they don't give them any real power…

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wilko, enough with the off-topic sniping. There's nothing in my post that could be interpreted as "I don't like Mexicans", so quit making stuff up.

Stay on topic or go find a new hobby.

Oh, and by the way, my brother-in-law is Mexican. He's an acclaimed artist and architect and he got that way by working his butt off for the past 20 years. When my sister married him, he was nothing but a starving artist and they struggled through some harsh financial times together.

I have nothing but respect for Mexican immigrants who struggle against incredible odds to carve out a decent life and give their children opportunities. (However, I am aware that most other Americans are the REASON behind those incredible odds).

In fact, if you'd like to reply on topic, you might want to talk about the way the disparate Latin American community (which is also very diverse and yet gets lumped into one group by American stereotyping, just as farang do in Thailand), somehow manages to find a collective identity and work together to help each other out.

Why don't farang in Thailand do the same thing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would think that your postings are riddled with stereotypes wouldn't you?

[wilko]

Wilko, enough with the off-topic sniping. There's nothing in my post that could be interpreted as "I don't like Mexicans", so quit making stuff up.

Very on topic...I was seeking clarification of a rather vague point...you'll see that 2 of us came up with different interpretations....

[britmaveric]

I know from personal experience that there is a heck of a lot more to Bangkok nightlife that a cab ride between Silom and Nana, but that kind of information is exceedingly rare when compared to the abundant wealth of information on go-go bars and pub-crawling. Aren't we selling Thailand a bit short? Shouldn't we be out there lauding the out of the way little pubs with great atmosphere, or the best house bands, or the restaurant with the best fish, or karaoke clubs with the best sound system and cleanest microphones, or the theaters with the most comfortable seats or the coolest places to catch a real Muay Thai match (and not some stupid tourist show), etc....?

Pudgi - you are all over the map now. Now we are on tourism - all the mentioned items are easily found on the net, even on TV I might add.

It's a tad obvious you want clones of yourself running around thailand. However thats the beauty of Thailand, all sorts of people with different agendas and lifstyles.

[j634]

Thailand is what you make of it. I did not have these opportunities in the US. You should not stereotype people or judge them ever. People are people wherever you live. They want the same respect as everyone else. You may not agree with how they live or what they think. Live your own life and be happy. Your rewards will come 10 fold.

The money I make I will contribute back to the society. I hope it will make 1 persons life happier. Thats all I can ask for.

My life is fortunate and for that I am very grateful, as should we all. What we have or own or who we know is not important. It's what we do that makes a difference.

Enjoy your life and help others as you can. You will be very happy and have a relaxed attitude.

Enjoy

j634

[Pudgimelon]

If you own a business would you pay a Thai person more than the 170 baht a day?

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I have also done volunteer teaching and that sort of thing.

Excellent post ray. I agree with what you're saying. There are many ways to help out in your community, and not all of them are monetary.

For example, every week I give the kids in my condo a "free" English class. Many of them are from wat schools or poor government schools so they don't have access to a farang teacher.

I "charge" the kids 20 baht, and then keep track of how much they've earned. When we get enough money, I'm going to use it to buy them some new playground equipment.

Of course I could just go out and buy it right now, but that's not the point. Throwing money around isn't a good way to earn respect. Besides, the kids are proud to pay for their own lessons (many of them use their allowance), and they take the lessons very seriously. It is truly a joy for me to teach them. They are bright, clever and willing students with a tremendous desire to learn.

So now I'm not just that nameless farang who lives in their condo. I'm a member of the community too.

A good example here in Udon my wife and I are a common site, if I go by something myself the first thing I hear from the shop owners is where is your wife?

On the other hand my wife and I went on a short vacation to Hua Hin, it was obvious that all the Thai's beleived he was a bar girl and she dresses in a very conservative manner. What can you do about that not a darn thing. Thai's have preconcieved notion of us and as long as the country not only welcomes but seeks out the sex tourist it is not going to change.

I can echo that experience.

My wife can be in charge of a multi-million baht construction project, but if we take a vacation up north, and suddenly we get people asking her what bar she works in simply because I'm standing next to her.

Nothing you can do but grin and bear it, but it certainly cheeses me off.

Guess that's part of the reason on of my hot buttons on these forums is when a poster makes a blanket statement about "most farang marrying bargirls", for the sake of my wife, I really want to stomp a mudhole outta those guys.

Thais may have their stereotypes and class system but there is absolutely no excuse when WE make those same generalizations about ourselves.

In short I have an effect in the small group of people that have a contact with, but so do the tourist and tehre are lot moer of them them I.

Alas, that's the reality of our situation. For every sensible, long-term expat there's about a 100 red-faced buffoons making compete asses of themselves at the 7-11 counter.

I will say one thing about this post it sure has a got a lot of activity. As my Thia friends say my head hurt I think to much 

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Like I keep telling people, I may be a prick online, but I'm an even bigger prick in real life! Oops, I meant to say something completely different. Give me a few dozen posts and I'll get it right....

[j634]

There is more to life than giving free English lessons. It does not feed the family or pay bills.

Again. Would you pay a Thai person more than 170 baht a day? Why avoid the question?

What have you done to change Thai society or make life better for anyone? Giving free English lessons to people who live in a condo? What a joke. Try the slums of Bangkok and than maybe you can post something you have done to change Thai society or help the less fortunate.

j634

[ray23]

Thailand is what you make of it. I did not have these opportunities in the US. You should not stereotype people or judge them ever. People are people wherever you live. They want the same respect as everyone else. You may not agree with how they live or what they think. Live your own life and be happy. Your rewards will come 10 fold.

The money I make I will contribute back to the society. I hope it will make 1 persons life happier. Thats all I can ask for.

My life is fortunate and for that I am very grateful, as should we all. What we have or own or who we know is not important. It's what we do that makes a difference.

Enjoy your life and help others as you can. You will be very happy and have a relaxed attitude.

Enjoy

j634

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well all of my long winded post disappeareed just as well can't be said better then J634

Edited December 4, 2005 by ray23

[Pudgimelon]

Why avoid the question?

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Because it's off-topic. The topic of this thread is not: "Let's all bash on Pudgi and 'prove' he's a big git."

If you want to do that, start another thread (or get a life, up to you).

What have you done to change Thai society or make life better for anyone? Giving free English lessons to people who live in a condo? What a joke. Try the slums of Bangkok and than maybe you can post something you have done to change Thai society or help the less fortunate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps you are envisioning some palatial downtown 'service apartment' when I say the word "condo" (completely ignoring what I said about the kids going to wat schools). Like I said before, I'm not going to waste my time with people who intentionally misinterpret my choice of vocabulary in order to prove non-existent points.

Please stay on topic or find another hobby.

[Pudgimelon]

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Ray, that gets my vote for post of the year. I don't think I've ever seen a point made in fewer words. A masterpiece. Bravo!

Edited December 4, 2005 by Pudgimelon

[britmaveric]

Pudgi likes to criticize, but can't take valid criticisms - faire enough that alone speaks volumes.

BTW I have no problem with what you say, but how you say it. (siamese kitty well stated what I think you meant)

[j634]

Why avoid the question?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it's off-topic. The topic of this thread is not: "Let's all bash on Pudgi and 'prove' he's a big git."

If you want to do that, start another thread (or get a life, up to you).

What have you done to change Thai society or make life better for anyone? Giving free English lessons to people who live in a condo? What a joke. Try the slums of Bangkok and than maybe you can post something you have done to change Thai society or help the less fortunate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps you are envisioning some palatial downtown 'service apartment' when I say the word "condo" (completely ignoring what I said about the kids going to wat schools). Like I said before, I'm not going to waste my time with people who intentionally misinterpret my choice of vocabulary in order to prove non-existent points.

Please stay on topic or find another hobby.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pugdi, I am no bashing you or anyone. I am not that kind of person. I have gone to the Wat schools for free. Did my brief appearance change a single persons life? NO. They still have no food or money.

I don't envision anything. I live in a shit hole of an apartment. I have made sacrifices for my future. I live very modestly and try to improve my life. I don't misinterpret anything Pugdi. I see things how they are.

As far as having a life? My life is very goog Pudgi. No complaints. I give back to society. Do you?

j634

[wilko]

For example, every week I give the kids in my condo a "free" English class. Many of them are from wat schools or poor government schools so they don't have access to a farang teacher.

I "charge" the kids 20 baht, and then keep track of how much they've earned. When we get enough money, I'm going to use it to buy them some new playground equipment.

Of course I could just go out and buy it right now, but that's not the point. Throwing money around isn't a good way to earn respect. Besides, the kids are proud to pay for their own lessons (many of them use their allowance), and they take the lessons very seriously. It is truly a joy for me to teach them. They are bright, clever and willing students with a tremendous desire to learn.

So now I'm not just that nameless farang who lives in their condo. I'm a member of the community too.

This just gets more and more bizarre....is this about you or how farrangs should behave or some hierarchical structure you think we should all cow-tow to? Siam thingy made some good points but anything you might have to say appears to be clouded by your own ego or prejudices on how or why foriegners behave...why do you restrict your comments to Americans and other English speakers? there are many other people settling in Thailand....even Chinese.....

P.S. - love the bit about "my brother in law is Mexican" - are you sure he's not American? the next thing you'll be saying is "Some of my best friends are black, or gay or HIV positive" or some other clicheed expression....

what do you do to the kids who don't have 20 baht?

Edited December 4, 2005 by wilko

[Pudgimelon]

blah, blah, blah, blah...  off-topic... blah, blah, blah, blah...

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[wilko]

blah, blah, blah, blah...  off-topic... blah, blah, blah, blah...

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<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please explain...how come a request for clarification is off topic and "blah blah blah" is on topic....

I fear you are displaying an irascible side that underlines you resentment of criticism.

[Jeeves]

Pudgi, Having read the posts here, I think that the kids that live in your condo building (you give a free Engliah lesson to) don't exactly need free lessons, try giving lessons to those that cannot afford to pay.

I say this because in a previous post by you, you stated that your wife cancelled a meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister of Thailand to go to Phuket with you, now.....................................that tells me that she must be a very influential woman, ( I mean, c'mon, who breaks off meetings with the deputy PM, maybe Mr T, that's all ). I doubt a woman of such substance is living in a small room in a second rate condominium in a poor area.

You are a snob, plain and simple, also you seem to look down on people from your high horse. In reality you are just another farang teaching English, trying to survive in Thailand.

What surprises me about your attitude is, you claim to have been raised as a poor kid with no opportunities, yet you slam the less fortunate people in Thailand.

Pudgi, yes, I believe that your wife is a very influential woman, I believe that at a whim she breaks off appointments with the Deputy PM, ........... if only all farang English teachers could meet such wonderful influential people, you are very lucky, You must be so happy and content.

Edited December 4, 2005 by Jeeves