Mass Transit System For Cm ?

[Ned]

Is it true that the govt just okayed a mass transit system for CM? .....something like the Bangkok skytrain.

Someone mentioned that the other day but it sounds a bit too good to be true.

Anyone out there heard something similar....and if so what have they got planned?

Cheers

[highonthai]

Tramway from The Royal Flora to Doi Sutep?

Movie studio In Sangkampang?

Tunnel under Thapae Gate?

The Failure of Mass Transit Operated by Chiang Mai Municipality

Author:

Prof. Dr. Manat Suwan

Event:

Summer School Cambodia 2007

Well-managed mass transit and communication systems are very important driving forces for urban development. Not only do they help mobilizing people, goods and services, but good systems are also able to help lessening the magnitude of traffic problems and the costs of traveling for people in big cities.

Chiang Mai City is considered to be the second largest city of Thailand next to Bangkok. With the number of population in the city and its vicinity of around 400,000 people, including visitors, whether they are tourists, businessmen and students who come and stay in the area, good transportation services were expected to sufficiently facilitate their traveling.

Surprisingly, the services of mass transit within and nearby the City, so far have been unsuccessfully operated. This paper is an attempt to investigate the factors both of the server’s side and of the user’s side that have influence upon the operation.

Needed data were collected through the reviewing of related documents as well as interviewing of the local people. The collected data were then analyzed by means of content analysis. The findings can be summarized as follows. On the server’s side, the Municipality, the factors that induced the failure are:

1) the number of buses in service is still not enough when the number of population in the area is taken into consideration;

2) irregularity of the time schedules;

3) service routes are considered to be inappropriate;

4) a strong competition from locally operated means of transportation. On the user’s side, the induced factors are found to be:

1) behavior of the local people that tend to have less traveling;

2) local people tend to patronage the traditional means of transportation (red four-wheel car);

3) no big businesses in the City.

The suggestions to improve the services of the mass transit in Chiang Mai City are as follows:

1) Municipality should invest more money buying the buses;

2) service schedules must be regulated;

3) improvement of public relation;

4) mass transit should be made more compatible by controlling the other means of transportation.

http://www.forum-urb...S%20TRANSIT.pdf

Edited January 28, 2012 by highonthai

[dickyknee]

This was a topic of discussion amongst some friends the other night. Not that it is happening, but that development of a mass transport system is needed in chiang Mai. Maybe not so much as needed now, but it's needs to start happening now.

[Sojourner]

As long as the songtow and tuktuk drivers have anything to say about it, it will never happen.

[hellodolly]

This was a topic of discussion amongst some friends the other night. Not that it is happening, but that development of a mass transport system is needed in chiang Mai. Maybe not so much as needed now, but it's needs to start happening now.

Agreed start now.

The other day I was traveling along the river road on the east side of the Ping from the Narawat bridge to the super highway. The traffic is bad enough now what will it be like in ten years.

Also it would help to have accurate information s to the size of the population. I have heard different figures from 175,000 to 1,750 000 people for the city and that does not take in the surrounding areas. A plan for mass rapid transit that does not have the proper data is a waste of time. (not sure if the whole thing isn't a waste of time). For all I know they will do a study and put it on the shelf until they need some thing to have the public look at.

I have heard quite often that Chiang Mai is the second biggest cit in Thailand. Also heard it is about the fifth biggest city. Any one know the truth. I am talking only of the city not the province all though that would be nice to know.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Tramway from The Royal Flora to Doi Sutep?

Movie studio In Sangkampang?

Tunnel under Thapae Gate?

Cable cart to Mae Hong Son! Remember that one?

Agreed start now.

The other day I was traveling along the river road on the east side of the Ping from the Narawat bridge to the super highway. The traffic is bad enough now what will it be like in ten years.

I think the main challenge is really where to start. I bet even if we argued across 8 pages in this topic on where the commercial and residential centers are in town, we wouldn't get close to any kind of agreement. It seems safe to say that 'North-South along the river' would not likely be a route.

I actually wonder if any mass transit system *should* go anywhere near the center of town? To what end? Force more people into that small space? One thing the municipality has actually been rather successful in over the years was to channel development away form the old city. The result is that you don't really need much mass transit in that area, there is simply no 'mass' wanting to transit in a particular direction every day there.

If we get mass transit (which doesn't necessarily mean a highly technical solution like a commutor rail system of any kind), it's probably better to have this along the main roads out of town; say to Mae Rim and Hang Dong, because there is a lot of movement along those roads.

I have heard quite often that Chiang Mai is the second biggest cit in Thailand. Also heard it is about the fifth biggest city. Any one know the truth. I am talking only of the city not the province all though that would be nice to know.

And I think it IS the second biggest city. On paper you see for example that Udon is about the same size or even bigger, but if you actually go there then you quickly realize there are nowhere near the same number of people there. "Anyone know the truth" --> No, they don't. Because nobody tracks it when people migrate between provinces. The whole of Thailand could move to Chiang Mai and no government institution would know about it.

The way I personally would go about estimating and comparing would be to look at businesses; government is hopeless in this country, businesses are not. So look at the number of Big C or Tesco stores in a city; they don't build those unless they're sure there's people there to come shop.

[CMX]

Whatever the population, it is not dense enough to justify highly expensive alternatives such as trains, not even trams, I feel. What we are experiencing is a rapidly expanding suburban sprawl, which unfortunately makes any route unlikely to pay for itself, save in the case of white busses.

However, that effort died a'borning. Here, as in many nations with many more resources, only monstrious traffic jams - which I will stipulate are just around the corner - will develop public support for alternatives. One might relate to London, where it would require an extra fee and sticker to drive within a set perimeter. Given the opportunity for the Bib to collect on the spot, this might be the winner. Vast parking lots outside the Superhighway would not cost too, too much, perhaps, were land not so expensive in the first place and were it not being built upon right now in the second.

Thais suffer Bangkok; why not another one? In short, never put off until tomorrow what you can delay until next week (land of my birth - USA - is exactly this way these days, when it comes to planningpaying for the future).

[WinnieTheKhwai]

By the way, on the research paper by Dr. Manat quoted above, it seems a classic example of 'a solution looking for a problem'. Because look at the reasons why people don't use buses:

On the user’s side, the induced factors are found to be:

1) behavior of the local people that tend to have less traveling;

2) local people tend to patronage the traditional means of transportation (red four-wheel car);

3) no big businesses in the City.

That pretty much reads as "We don't actually need it. Please go find something else to spend our tax payer money on for your kickbacks and contracts to companies run by your mates and family."

Edited January 28, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[lannarebirth]

]

Cable cart to Mae Hong Son! Remember that one?

Remember the tram from Chiang Mai to Mae Hong Son, and the water slide from Mae Hong Son ro Pitsanulok?

[hellodolly]

While I agree that there is a possibility that ultra modern mass transit systems might not be needed now.

I believe that to put in less would be to just delay the ultimate answer. Perhaps if they could design them for future improvement they would be OK.

God points wtk where to start and number of western chain store's would be a good indicator. The one reservation I have with that is some of the city's close to Bangkok can rely on ones in the next city or Bangkok itself. Lets face it those big department type stores and super markets wont be as prevalent in a area with out a fair amount of foreigners.

[hellodolly]

By the way, on the research paper by Dr. Manat quoted above, it seems a classic example of 'a solution looking for a problem'. Because look at the reasons why people don't use buses:

On the user’s side, the induced factors are found to be:

1) behavior of the local people that tend to have less traveling;

2) local people tend to patronage the traditional means of transportation (red four-wheel car);

3) no big businesses in the City.

That pretty much reads as "We don't actually need it. Please go find something else to spend our tax payer money on for your kickbacks and contracts to companies run by your mates and family."

but there is reasons for those and the study showed some of them here

Municipality, the factors that induced the failure are:

1) the number of buses in service is still not enough when the number of population in the area is taken into consideration;

2) irregularity of the time schedules;

3) service routes are considered to be inappropriate;

4) a strong competition from locally operated means of transportation. On the user’s side, the induced factors are

It would be a different story if those factors were addressed. Of course people are going to use songtels and tuk tuks when they know they can depend on them.

A little bit of sensible schedules and adherence to them would help to make the problem bearable for a little longer giving them time to come up with a reasonable plan the money to finance it and the willingness to do it.

Maybe I am asking for to much.

[lannarebirth]

Obviously, the starting point is the Canal road. Maybe from the Royal Flora / Night Safari to the new convention center / 700 Year Stadium (a MUCH underutilized fantastic facility) or Mae Rim.

[trainman34014]

Same old same. It isn't going to happen, forget it and move on to the next Fairy Story !

[uptheos]

God points wtk where to start

Don't make WTK feel more important than he does lol.

[lannarebirth]

Same old same. It isn't going to happen, forget it and move on to the next Fairy Story !

It may not happen, that's true, but this years budget (approved by the previous government) has allocations for land acquisition for said mass transit system. I imagine the route will stick really close to plots of lands already owned by "influential persons".

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It may not happen, that's true, but this years budget (approved by the previous government) has allocations for land acquisition for said mass transit system. I imagine the route will stick really close to plots of lands already owned by "influential persons".

Mag-lev Mono-rail to Sankamphaeng.

Obviously, the starting point is the Canal road. Maybe from the Royal Flora / Night Safari to the new convention center / 700 Year Stadium (a MUCH underutilized fantastic facility) or Mae Rim.

Agreed that's a good route, but I'd start it with a regular bus service and see how that works out. An issue may still be that there aren't a lot of people who actually need to go to those two places regularly. It'd be good for people living along the Canal Road, but once you hit Suthep road there better be options to actually get into town.

Edited January 28, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[nikster]

By the way, on the research paper by Dr. Manat quoted above, it seems a classic example of 'a solution looking for a problem'. Because look at the reasons why people don't use buses:

On the user’s side, the induced factors are found to be:

1) behavior of the local people that tend to have less traveling;

2) local people tend to patronage the traditional means of transportation (red four-wheel car);

3) no big businesses in the City.

That pretty much reads as "We don't actually need it. Please go find something else to spend our tax payer money on for your kickbacks and contracts to companies run by your mates and family."

I read it that way too.

The one sentence summary is: Songthaos actually work really well.

Aren't they a public transport system? As they're somewhere between a taxi and a bus. If I were looking for solutions I would optimize songthaos first - put GPSs in them, and make an iPhone app where people can signal one. And maybe some public signaling stations, sort of an on-demand bus stop. The drivers are already doing pretty well - as he takes into account traffic, drop off points, and likely hop on points along the way - I think if there was more data to support the drivers songthaos could be the winner. If the city creates cheapo electric versions - huge win for everyone.

Trains of any kind would be really short, and probably not worth the expense. You could connect Central Airport, Nimman, Santhitam, and the old city - and that's about it for high population density areas. Everything else is out there, not worth it.

[BlaMuek]

I thought song theaws were the mass transport system, why not just add a few hundred more to improve the traffic flow.??

[nikster]

Obviously, the starting point is the Canal road. Maybe from the Royal Flora / Night Safari to the new convention center / 700 Year Stadium (a MUCH underutilized fantastic facility) or Mae Rim.

Agreed that's a good route, but I'd start it with a regular bus service and see how that works out. An issue may still be that there aren't a lot of people who actually need to go to those two places regularly. It'd be good for people living along the Canal Road, but once you hit Suthep road there better be options to actually get into town.

I live on Canal Road but I don't see it. Where will this bus get me? Do I walk from my moo baan 10 minutes to the bus stop; then hop on the bus; then get dropped off somewhere else along canal road?? Why would I go there?

Another issue for mass transit here is that there's no pedestrian walkways to speak of. Look at *any* sidewalk anywhere in Chiang Mai. Then imagine 1000 people trying to get through. Just came back from Singapore and this is one huge difference - they have wide, nice, sidewalks on all roads. One can walk from here to there - one could even push a stroller if one had to. Good luck trying to do that in CM.

[hellodolly]

God points wtk where to start

Don't make WTK feel more important than he does lol.

uptheos don't you agree we have to give the devil his due lol

[nikster]

I thought song theaws were the mass transport system, why not just add a few hundred more to improve the traffic flow.??

Totally agree. There's a ton of potential there.

My brother used to work as a bicycle messenger and they had this GPS based system where they track all riders, if a new order comes in the closest rider gets it, etc. Same thing for truck companies, couriers, etc. Would work for song theaws as well - imagine a touch screen where you can zoom / pan a map and enter your drop off spot. And big computers crunching the ideal routes.. I think it would be super efficient...

[KRS1]

Red trucks are fine IMO, they just need to get all of them to switch to LPG or CNG.

Why are there no Mocyc taxis in CNX ? Seems like another perfect solution. I dont even bother with tuk tuks anymore, they try and get you everytime.

If the moat was deeper they could run a few ferries around it. Would have to be deep enough to get under the bridges.

[jackr]

Why are there no Mocyc taxis in CNX ? Seems like another perfect solution. I dont even bother with tuk tuks anymore, they try and get you everytime.

The songthaew/tuk tuks won't have it, nor will they have meter taxis plying the streets... same same Phuket (bar moto taxis). Until you knock this mafia-type attitude on the head, nothing will work well. I'm up for throwing 90% of the songhtaews/tuk tuks in the moat (with drivers), subway lines in from all cardinal points, meter taxi stands, bike paths...

[highonthai]

I for one don't think we need a mass transit system here.

I don't have any problem getting around. I know when not to drive my car and when to use my motorcycle. Or when it's benefical to take a song theaw.

And yes, their are motorcycle taxis in CM, I use them sometimes. Their just not in town. Song theaws, tuk tuk's, motorcycle taxi's, meter taxi's, buses, walking or your private car, motorcycle or bicycle. If you can't get to where your going with all that, Just stay home...

Mass transit woks in BKK (big city) but I don't think it has any palce or value in CM.

The money would be better spent on other projects.

[lannarebirth]

Obviously, the starting point is the Canal road. Maybe from the Royal Flora / Night Safari to the new convention center / 700 Year Stadium (a MUCH underutilized fantastic facility) or Mae Rim.

Agreed that's a good route, but I'd start it with a regular bus service and see how that works out. An issue may still be that there aren't a lot of people who actually need to go to those two places regularly. It'd be good for people living along the Canal Road, but once you hit Suthep road there better be options to actually get into town.

I live on Canal Road but I don't see it. Where will this bus get me? Do I walk from my moo baan 10 minutes to the bus stop; then hop on the bus; then get dropped off somewhere else along canal road?? Why would I go there?

Another issue for mass transit here is that there's no pedestrian walkways to speak of. Look at *any* sidewalk anywhere in Chiang Mai. Then imagine 1000 people trying to get through. Just came back from Singapore and this is one huge difference - they have wide, nice, sidewalks on all roads. One can walk from here to there - one could even push a stroller if one had to. Good luck trying to do that in CM.

If they wanted to improve traffic flow they could do it in one day. just ban on street parking, The Canal Road is basically three lanes, but when someone parks in the outer lane motorcycles swerve into other lanes , causing those cars to swerve and of course no one looks to see if there's already a car in the lane they're swerving into. The government is subsidizing businesses and turning highways into parking lots for them. That should stop befor there's any talk of a "Mass Transit" system.

[thaimiller]

There's also posters around saying that we are going to get an high speed train link to BKK, that should be fun to use in say 40 years when Its finally finished. (there is even a picture of a bullet train on the poster)

Edited January 29, 2012 by thaimiller

[MESmith]

Roundabouts (traffic circles?) at large intersections, with short cycle traffic lights for use at peak periods. Keep the through traffic moving.

[lannarebirth]

Roundabouts (traffic circles?) at large intersections, with short cycle traffic lights for use at peak periods. Keep the through traffic moving.

They just don't understand how roundabouts work yet. There's a pretty good sized one in front of the Royal Flora. The police have blocked access on one side and are directing traffic on the other. I just don't get it. If there were no police presence at all, everyone would figure it out for themselves soon enough.

[Puwa]

Chiang Mai could relieve traffic congestion by using more school buses. There's a dramatic difference in rush hour congestion when the schools are in and out of session. The other congestion I see is from commuting in and out of the surrounding districts: Mae Rim, Hang Dong, Doi Saket, San Kamphaeng. Light rail lines connecting the districts to depots around the city would probably help more than a mass transit system within the town. Pair this with an electronic toll tagging system for cars entering the city to provide both a deterrant and alternative to driving one's own car.

But I would rather see good buses and a big upgrade in the songthaew system, which will always play a role because of its point-to-point service.

Anyway, all the talk about mass transit for Chiang Mai isn't about serving the public better. It's about contracts and payoffs, or at best a showcase for tourism.

[highonthai]

How about opening up some of the meridians so you don't have to drive a mile out of your way to make a u-turn?