Dowry

[STEALTH K3]

Find an orphan that's what I am doing next time.

[udon]

Refuse to even discuss a dowry and you will find out what your shares are really worth.

Offer to pay for the wedding and set a limit on the number of guests. Set a budget.

If you can afford to help Ma & Pa occasionally, do it, but no stupid promises.

Your financial situation can change overnight.

Reference # 1

Reference # 2 Warning: 19000 words

[Soju]

Reference # 1

What a bunch of rubbish that Stickman article was. A complete waste of my time to read it filled with very obvious contradictions. If the author can't even keep his story straight, why would anyone believe a word he says?

For example...

In one paragraph he states:

If you are a farang, you don’t have to pay sin soht. Do you know why you don’t have to pay? You are not Thai.

Then followed in the next paragraph he says:

Paying a dowry for a woman is a Chinese tradition. It isn’t even Thai. So basically you have a bunch of farang guys running around trying to be Chinese when they think they are being Thai.

Why can't he make up his mind? Should a farang not pay a dowry because he's not Thai, or should he not pay it because he's not Chinese?

He repeats himself many times stating that a farang does not have to pay and tries to portray any farang who pays a dowry as being extremely stupid and naive, but then at the end of his ramblings makes a complete 180 with this statement:

Farang often wonder what they should pay for a normal girl of the same class as themselves. This is my advice to you. It is simple and reasonable. And it won’t cause you to sell out your pride and dignity. You fork out no more than what you would pay for the engagement ring and the wedding ring for a Western wife. There could be some value to sin soht paid in kind if it used for the right intentions.

So in the end he makes an argument for what he spent the entire article arguing strongly and unequivocally against.

His diatribe seems to be mostly against spending any money on bar girls and I can only guess that his bitterness comes from a bad experience of his own where he feels like he was cheated out of his money by a bar girl who them dumped him. But at the beginning of his writing he makes no mention of bar girls, so inappropriately lumps all Thai women together.

For anyone thinking about reading this long pile of crap, first read his conclusion and you can save yourself a lot of wasted time as it summarizes what the author really thinks of Thai women:

In conclusion, when many Thai women marry farang, they expect to have all the rights and privileges of having a western husband, yet when it comes to sin soht, they want their husbands to act like Thai men, which to me is a load of crap. If a Thai woman wants her farang husband to act like a Thai, then she should act like a traditional Thai wife, which means cooking, cleaning, fxxking on demand, managing the household, raising the children, bowing down to her husband’s feet at night, and turning a blind eye to mia nois. And she should also bring something to the table in terms of face, class, money, education, and social power. If a farang is going to pay for the so-called privileges of marrying a Thai woman, he should at least get what he paid for. If a Thai woman is going to offer herself up as a marketable commodity, then the buyer really should ask himself what this commodity is really worth to him.

[Jai Dee]

Here is a photograph of the sin sot on display during a wedding ceremony I attended in an Isaan village on January 2 this year.

Total sin sot: 150,000 baht cash plus 2 x 5 baht gold chains for the bride.

Both the bride and the groom were Thai... the bride works in Bangkok as a receptionist for a clothing factory, and the groom is a junior officer in the Army. Their parents live in Isaan, the bride's near Khon Kaen and the groom's near Roiet.

Make your own comments/judgements now.

[Soju]

Total sin sot: 150,000 baht cash plus 2 x 5 baht gold chains for the bride.

Both the bride and the groom were Thai... the bride works in Bangkok as a receptionist for a clothing factory, and the groom is a junior officer in the Army.

Thanks for that post. Time and time again we see evidence that the dowry is part of the Thai culture and that Thai men are expected to pay it. Not all Thais follow the tradition, but a good number of them do. Then along comes some westerner who thinks he knows it all and tries to spread false information such as saying the dowry is not part of Thai culture or that any farang who pays it is simply being taken advantage of.

Also interesting to note the amount, 150,000 Baht plus 10baht gold for the bride. Many poster seem to think even 100,000 is too much for a dowry, yet you have a Thai man who doesn't appear to be rich or have a high paying job paying this much. He likely has to save for many years to afford such a dowry, yet farangs moan about giving only a few months salary as a dowry.

If you refuse to pay a dowry on grounds that you just find it offensive, then fine. But in many cases I think the farangs complaining about Thais only trying to take advantage of the farang are misplaced and more a case of the farang just being too much of a tightwad. I'm sure there are plenty of cases of the dowry price being jacked up simply because a farang is involved, but you need to check into things a bit more before blindly assuming that it's the case.

Even if the dowry price is set artificially high becase a farang is involved, is that really such a bad thing? Looking at it from the Thai perspective, it's mostly about showing off one's status. If the groom is well off, I would guess most Thais would expect him to pay a much higher dowry. It's not just the desirability of the bride, but also the groom's ability to pay. Keep that in mind, and balance it with the knowledge that paying a high dowry also could mean many future requests for money. There are both positive and negative points to consider in paying a high dowry price. Usually only the negative are emphasized in this forum.

[Jai Dee]

Another little known fact: many Thai men have to sell their farms and houses, and go into debt in order to pay the dowry.

Fact.

[Soju]

Yes, and I know of a couple of Thai men living in a village who even with a decent job would like to get married but have to delay for many years because their families are too poor or refuse to loan them money or the family farm in order to marry.

I often wonder how many Farang-Thai marriages would take place if the Farang had to sacrifice as much as some of these Thai men do. How many men would be willing to work for 5 years and save every penny they could and then turn in all over just to get married? Or how many would be willing to sell their house in order to get married? If this was required of all Farangs, I'm guessing maybe only 1% of the existing Thai-Farang marriages would exist.

A 200,000 Baht, or even 500,000 Baht dowry somehow doesn't seem so bad when we look at what some Thai men do for love.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Soju

[raro]

Total sin sot: 150,000 baht cash plus 2 x 5 baht gold chains for the bride.

Both the bride and the groom were Thai... the bride works in Bangkok as a receptionist for a clothing factory, and the groom is a junior officer in the Army. Their parents live in Isaan, the bride's near Khon Kaen and the groom's near Roiet.

Make your own comments/judgements now.

enough said, I think

After having read this threat, all seven pages, I still wonder why the OP didn't get back to us with the most important info: What is the background of his bride, family, education etc. (or did I miss that one??). As other posters mentioned before, in certain social layers this is the going rate.

Here's my story: She is from a very conservative family. Sitting alone in a car together is for her parents already a no-no (if they knew... ). Myself, I am a rather liberal thinking person and my idea is "you can live together without marriage and split up if you're married...so why marry at all?". Fact is, she cannot move in without being married, so I have to either bite the bullet or split up.

Sin Sod is asked, 200k plus 2 Baht gold, so I did an extensive research about sin sod on this forum a while ago (thank you guys! Was a great help in the decision-making process ). Sin Sod includes the wedding party with 200+ people expected. All preperation work on their side. In light of her education, English abilities, looks and taking further into account that her father is a highly respected Master of Ceremonies in the area, I do consider this as a fair amount.

I do also know her brother in law, a Farang who is married to her older sister for many years. As he could confirm that the family is by far no rip-off, but a decent bunch of hard working and honest people who never approached him for sick buffaloes and so on in all those years, I cannot see any problems fulfilling this apparently so important bit of Thai culture for the sake of living togethere with my girlfriend/wife.

cheers

raro

[sriracha john]

Reference # 1

What a bunch of rubbish that Stickman article was. A complete waste of my time to read it filled with very obvious contradictions. If the author can't even keep his story straight, why would anyone believe a word he says?

For example...

In one paragraph he states:

If you are a farang, you don't have to pay sin soht. Do you know why you don’t have to pay? You are not Thai.

Then followed in the next paragraph he says:

Paying a dowry for a woman is a Chinese tradition. It isn’t even Thai. So basically you have a bunch of farang guys running around trying to be Chinese when they think they are being Thai.

Why can't he make up his mind? Should a farang not pay a dowry because he's not Thai, or should he not pay it because he's not Chinese?

He repeats himself many times stating that a farang does not have to pay and tries to portray any farang who pays a dowry as being extremely stupid and naive, but then at the end of his ramblings makes a complete 180 with this statement:

Farang often wonder what they should pay for a normal girl of the same class as themselves. This is my advice to you. It is simple and reasonable. And it won’t cause you to sell out your pride and dignity. You fork out no more than what you would pay for the engagement ring and the wedding ring for a Western wife. There could be some value to sin soht paid in kind if it used for the right intentions.

So in the end he makes an argument for what he spent the entire article arguing strongly and unequivocally against.

His diatribe seems to be mostly against spending any money on bar girls and I can only guess that his bitterness comes from a bad experience of his own where he feels like he was cheated out of his money by a bar girl who them dumped him. But at the beginning of his writing he makes no mention of bar girls, so inappropriately lumps all Thai women together.

For anyone thinking about reading this long pile of crap, first read his conclusion and you can save yourself a lot of wasted time as it summarizes what the author really thinks of Thai women:

In conclusion, when many Thai women marry farang, they expect to have all the rights and privileges of having a western husband, yet when it comes to sin soht, they want their husbands to act like Thai men, which to me is a load of crap. If a Thai woman wants her farang husband to act like a Thai, then she should act like a traditional Thai wife, which means cooking, cleaning, fxxking on demand, managing the household, raising the children, bowing down to her husband’s feet at night, and turning a blind eye to mia nois. And she should also bring something to the table in terms of face, class, money, education, and social power. If a farang is going to pay for the so-called privileges of marrying a Thai woman, he should at least get what he paid for. If a Thai woman is going to offer herself up as a marketable commodity, then the buyer really should ask himself what this commodity is really worth to him.

stickman get his philosphy of Thai women from that dodgy farang-in-thailand-porn-star Nigel?

Edited January 31, 2006 by sriracha john

[Soju]

Reference # 2 Warning: 19000 words

I missed that link the first time I replied to your post. Maybe you added that after I replied.

Where does Stickman get all these know-it-alls who actually know nothing? This guy portrays himself as an expert in Thai language, when already it's been shown in this forum that the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Granted he's much more refined than the author of the first post, but still I wouldn't believe anything he says.

Take this for example:

This is also the first gal that surprised me not long after we became a couple by stating her love for me, using English. Please note that this is not what it may seem on the surface. Thais ‘love’ to use ideas (concepts) in English that they are uncomfortable with or unable to say in Thai, curse words for example, or anything that sounds sophisticated or ‘modern’. Sorry but my gal will have to do MUCH better than this. She must be willing to tell in Thai, the proper way. On another occasion she expressed this love using the phrase (nickname, rak khun); well those of you who know Thai understand that this is a ridiculous way of espousing one's love for someone. The Thai language has a very succinct way of stating someone’s true love for someone they consider as a spouse, ‘chan rak ther’; NOT (nickname or chan) rak khun, and for someone who is relatively competent in Thai (taken university exams and regularly done simultaneous Thai-English-Thai interpretation as part of my job), her ridiculous expression was an insult. It also violates other aspects of my criteria for a spouse as it is not honest, and tells me that that this gal thinks of me as perhaps just another idiot farang.

Then go read this thread

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42566&st=0

or this thread where his article and this point was specifically discussed

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=468967&st=150&

and you will see that he's completely full of it and has nowhere near the comprehension of Thai language that he claims. Thus I have to say he has absolutely no credibility with respect to Thai language or Thai culture.

There may be some useful bits of information on Stickman, but unfortunately there's so much BS by people who think they know it all that it's hard to know what to believe and what not to.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Soju

[udon]

name='Soju' date='2006-01-31 18:47:31'

I missed that link the first time I replied to your post. Maybe you added that after I replied.

Where does Stickman get all these know-it-alls who actually know nothing?

And you're not a know-it-all?

[Jai Dee]

Actually I think that Soju may have a closer handle on Thai culture than that... don't forget that payment of sin sot is abitrarily (sp?) set at a figure that is based on a couple of things... the bride's worth in the eyes of her parents, the ability (or percieved ability/wealth) of the groom, and let's not forget face... an ever intriguing (and sometimes unfathomable) aspect of living here in Thailand.

I think Soju and Raro have made some pretty good observations on this thread to date... and are probably closer to the reality of Thai culture concerning the dowry than many other posters to date.

Having said that, there are also many other variables to consider... such as the building of a house or donation of a car/pickup for the parents, which would reduce the sin sot... many, many things to consider... and every case would be unique.

It is not an easy topic to discuss...and agree on... because of that uniqueness... and that's also why there are so many cases of this discussion on ThaiVisa.

[Rinrada]

So in the end he makes an argument for what he spent the entire article arguing strongly and

stickman get his philosphy of Thai women from that dodgy farang-in-thailand-porn-star Nigel?

New boy on the block who I believe is Sticks mentor (or tor mentor when it comes to it )..the famous "Dave the Rave"..has been running go-gos in nana for as long as I can remember (still owes me a beer from that night in the Therme...in 93) and is now the latest of the Bangkok information GURUs joining the likes of ..D.B,Phil,Bob,Pete,Sue and Trink.

Just how many can one little place take.....

[Heng]

Tradition aside (and yes, it is a local tradition), falangs should discuss beforehand with their spouses to be what will happen to said sin sot as sometimes the default setting for Thai-Falang marriage procedures is sometimes set to "?" instead of "return as per the norm," in regards to the sin sot.

[Soju]

And you're not a know-it-all?

No, I'd be the first to admit that I do not know very much about Thailand. But anyone, even if you knew absolutely nothing about Thailand, could see that writings of the author in your reference #1 were little more than babblings of someone with an axe to grind. With all his contradictions, he didn't make any sense. He has no ability to form a cohesive argument. You don't need to know anything about the subject to see that.

Regarding the second reference, I certainly don't know enough about the Thai language to refute his article. But several native Thai speakers here on this forum did refute his argument. So I only read their posts and made a determination that they knew more about Thai, being native speakers, than the author did. Again, a simple judgment call based not on knowledge, but on reasoning.

Everyone has different views. I often enjoy picking the road-less-traveled and try to argue the less popular views, sort of playing the devil's advocate. I think far too often people just go along with the herd without thinking for themselves. I like to give an alternate and not so popular viewpoint and make people to try to think a bit more. And especially when I see some argument that is full of holes or faulty logic, I like to point out the faults or point out details that nobody thought of.

I wasn't trying to say anything about you or your posts, just about the articles in the links you provided and don't mean to attack directly those authors, but rather the obvious inconsistencies and faults with their articles.

[Soju]

Actually I think that Soju may have a closer handle on Thai culture than that... don't forget that payment of sin sot is abitrarily (sp?) set at a figure that is based on a couple of things... the bride's worth in the eyes of her parents, the ability (or percieved ability/wealth) of the groom, and let's not forget face... an ever intriguing (and sometimes unfathomable) aspect of living here in Thailand.

I think Soju and Raro have made some pretty good observations on this thread to date... and are probably closer to the reality of Thai culture concerning the dowry than many other posters to date.

Having said that, there are also many other variables to consider... such as the building of a house or donation of a car/pickup for the parents, which would reduce the sin sot... many, many things to consider... and every case would be unique.

It is not an easy topic to discuss...and agree on... because of that uniqueness... and that's also why there are so many cases of this discussion on ThaiVisa.

Thanks, Jai Dee, for the kind words. I think what you said about there being many factors is the key to such issues. There is no right or wrong answer. Each individual just needs to get all the information and analyze the unique situation they are in to come up with a decision about how they want to proceed. For some, the answer will be no dowry. For some it will be a moderate dowry. And for others it will be a large dowry.

For anyone needing to make a decision about a dowry, don't let anyone persuade you how to decide because they don't know all the details as you do. Nobody can blindly tell you to never pay any dowry. That's just stupid because they don't know enough about you or your situation to make a proper judgment. There are scams out there, and also people who are insincere, so you should certainly be alert. But don't be overly cautious to the point of making an even bigger mistake and don't take anyone's word as the final say-so.

I'd hate to think what might happen to someone naive about Thai language/culture who read the article in Udon's reference #2 regarding your gf using the term "rak khun":

My view is that if your girlfriend expresses her love for you in Thai, in the inappropriate way noted above, forget her.

That would have been a tragic mistake for someone to make based on faulty information. What's great about this forum is so many different people with all sorts of different views. Ask a questiion or ask for advice and you'll get lots of information to process and come up with your own decision.

[Jai Dee]

Heng has made a very valid point, and one which should not be overlooked... discuss the issue with your teeruk/tilac... find out where the expectations lie... and most importantly... come to an agreement with your wife-to-be.

Make sure she (read mother/father/friends/everyone in the village) understands the reasons for the dowry being what it is... and the expectation for it's usage.

[Curt]

Whether large or small, paid or not, if you, your fiancee, and her family are not just agreed upon, but comfortable with the sinsod, maybe you aren't ready for the marriage.

Personally, I think it would be better to wait until you know her culture and family well enough to make all these decisions yourself.

If making this gesture feels good for you, have a go.

If it doesn't, why try to get a bunch of anonymous yahoos to rationalize it for you.

[chuchok]

As long as both parties respect each others culture, then the is nothing wrong with dowries.In my case it would mean me paying the Dowry and my wifes family paying for the wedding.That sounds like a nice 50/50 deal to me.

Two cultures must be delt with equally IMO.Anything else is a piss take.

[udon]

"inconsistencies and faults with their articles"

I agree that ref 1 is a dog's dinner and if sin sot is refunded it's ok, just play along with the game.

If it's not, you have paid a "bride price" ..... (bought your wife), which I find totally repugnant.

I still go along with Arthur's contribution, (ref # 2) even if there are a few inconsistencies

[RamdomChances]

Some good posts by Soju. I've been to loads of Thai weddings, and there is allways Sin Sot, unless you are really close with the groom, you never really know if this is just for "show" or actually paid, then comes the question of who paid for the wedding, from what I can gather (thai/thai weddings) it seems that if the sin sot is to be kept, that the wifes family pays for the wedding although this is not a definitive statment.

The average around here seems to be about 100,000 bhat and 10 bhat gold. The few people I know well enough to know the truth of where the money goes is mixed, my brother-in-law did'nt get any back, but her mother paid for the wedding, an other friend got his back but paid for the most of wedding, yet an other is still waiting to get married as he does'nt have the money yet although they have signed at the ampour so are legaly married.

Undoubtedly there are some scams around, I've seen some first hand but for many Thais, espesially living in rural areas it is very much the custom. It beats my why someone who pays say about 200,000 bhat, some gold and the wedding complains so much, add up the cost of getting married back home with out the sin sot and I think you'll find its still cheaper in Thailand even with it.

RC

[brunodog]

A dowry (and usually some gold as well) is very much a traditional part of the wedding ceremony in Isaan.

Your knowledge of Thai culture a2396 is sadly lacking...

Just how important is the gold gift in Isaan.

I have been discussing dowries with Pin and I am thinking of around the 250,000 baht mark. She is 23, no kids and in last year of university. Her family are rice farmers near Udon. What do you think people am I being kee neaow.

BTW I find this a difficult area for discussion for a couple of reasons, I am not comfortable with it as it is so far removed from my own culture and I feel it devalues a relationship by putting a 'price' on it.

I am however willing to go along with it out of respect for Pin's culture/face as it obviously means a lot to her.

[bluezephyr]

Talking to my thai lady about sin sot,she reckons it to with with luck and buddah and to pay for the party,the more you pay the more extravagent things are.

(sorry i havent time at the mo to read all posts on here) its probably been covered.

[udon]

A dowry (and usually some gold as well) is very much a traditional part of the wedding ceremony in Isaan.

Your knowledge of Thai culture a2396 is sadly lacking...

Just how important is the gold gift in Isaan.

I have been discussing dowries with Pin and I am thinking of around the 250,000 baht mark. She is 23, no kids and in last year of university. Her family are rice farmers near Udon. What do you think people am I being kee neaow.

BTW I find this a difficult area for discussion for a couple of reasons, I am not comfortable with it as it is so far removed from my own culture and I feel it devalues a relationship by putting a 'price' on it.

I am however willing to go along with it out of respect for Pin's culture/face as it obviously means a lot to her.

Refuse to pay sin sot and you will find out how much your bride to be, loves you.

Try thinking with the big head.

[britmaveric]

Udon - rather true. You can pay it or not pay it - up to you. I know quite a few Thai/farang alike that haven't paid naught - tradition thats certainly best left in the past. The reasons for a dowery dont really apply these days. It shows alot of what the family thinks of you when silly demands are made.

Have a big pissup at the wedding and give a bit of gold. Anything else well in my eyes is excess and puts your future as well as your wife at risk. Best bet is to help the family out when needed - within reason I might add. You don't just gain a wife, but the entire family that goes with it. Anyways if you want to go through dowery bit, so be it however nothing wrong with not doing so either.

[Kringle]

Forget the sinsot, unless of course you're getting it ALL back. Bunch of BS, pay for the party and forget it. You're not buying the girl, jeeeez. If she says or the family says you have to pay, then RUN FOREST RUN because you will never stop paying. I guess you could be like pnustedt and pump millions of baht into her family and they will eventually stop asking you for money.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Kringle

[raro]

A dowry (and usually some gold as well) is very much a traditional part of the wedding ceremony in Isaan.

Your knowledge of Thai culture a2396 is sadly lacking...

Just how important is the gold gift in Isaan.

I have been discussing dowries with Pin and I am thinking of around the 250,000 baht mark. She is 23, no kids and in last year of university. Her family are rice farmers near Udon. What do you think people am I being kee neaow.

BTW I find this a difficult area for discussion for a couple of reasons, I am not comfortable with it as it is so far removed from my own culture and I feel it devalues a relationship by putting a 'price' on it.

I am however willing to go along with it out of respect for Pin's culture/face as it obviously means a lot to her.

Brunodog,

have a look at my post further up, it might give you some clue. 250k is in maybe a bit high from what I get from your post, or does it include the gold and the party? The gold is very important, as this is some sort of "life insurance" for the girl as she can keep it if you run away. Even if there is no sin sod, there is still the gold gift.

Sin sod or not depends a lot on the family, how traditional they are. The family of my g/f openly admits that they are very conservative and stick to the traditions, hence there is no way around a sin sod. More modern families might return the sin sod or skip it altogether.

I'd recommend you to check the family for some key factors: Do they drink or gamble, do they have bad debts (maybe even as a result of the above) and what kind of status do they have in the village, the area. This also might give you some clues whether or not you're taken to the cleaners or found a girl from a decent family.

good luck!

[brunodog]

A dowry (and usually some gold as well) is very much a traditional part of the wedding ceremony in Isaan.

Your knowledge of Thai culture a2396 is sadly lacking...

Just how important is the gold gift in Isaan.

I have been discussing dowries with Pin and I am thinking of around the 250,000 baht mark. She is 23, no kids and in last year of university. Her family are rice farmers near Udon. What do you think people am I being kee neaow.

BTW I find this a difficult area for discussion for a couple of reasons, I am not comfortable with it as it is so far removed from my own culture and I feel it devalues a relationship by putting a 'price' on it.

I am however willing to go along with it out of respect for Pin's culture/face as it obviously means a lot to her.

Brunodog,

have a look at my post further up, it might give you some clue. 250k is in maybe a bit high from what I get from your post, or does it include the gold and the party? The gold is very important, as this is some sort of "life insurance" for the girl as she can keep it if you run away. Even if there is no sin sod, there is still the gold gift.

Sin sod or not depends a lot on the family, how traditional they are. The family of my g/f openly admits that they are very conservative and stick to the traditions, hence there is no way around a sin sod. More modern families might return the sin sod or skip it altogether.

I'd recommend you to check the family for some key factors: Do they drink or gamble, do they have bad debts (maybe even as a result of the above) and what kind of status do they have in the village, the area. This also might give you some clues whether or not you're taken to the cleaners or found a girl from a decent family.

good luck!

Thanks for the feedback there people. Raro I have been to the village and met Pin's parents. They are obviously (very)poor people but does this neccessarily equate to level of status in the village. As far as I could see everyone seemed to be pretty poor?

Britmaverick the dowry would be non returnable as far as I understand it.

Udon you have a good point succinctly made and I am not sure whether I want to get in to brinksmanship over the payment of what to most westerners is not an extremely great amount of money. What I am saying is I am guessing the cultural and familial expectations of a girl from Thailand when marrying a farang would be such that a 'bride price' would be expected.

Anyways I feel that we are still in the first round of negotiations yet. I have been reading this forum for a while and also through my visits I am aware that everything is not always as it may appear on first sight in Thailand.

I am just beginning to get a handle on Thai culture and I am not going to be dashing head on until I am certain I understand everything a lot better

[Jai Dee]

I am not a subscriber to the "don't pay it" school of thought... as it directly contravenes Thai culture.

Personally, I think that anyone who thinks that they shouldn't pay it is making no effort at all in trying to assimilate into Thai culture.

It's called respect... and not trying to impose your Western values and principles onto a foreign culture.

Just my personal opinion.

Do some more research... read the book "Thailand Fever"... learn a little bit more about the real Thai culture... and then ask yourself if you want to become a respected part of it, or resented for your lack of acceptance and inflexibility.

[udon]

We could pay 10 million baht and never be accepted into Thai culture, don't ever kid yourself on that point.

What about Western culture, it looks like a one-way street to me.