How To Meet Normal Thai Gays In A 'Straight' Bar

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, we've had various 'how-to' questions recently. So, without further ado, here's how to meet a normal gay guy in a non-gay bar. I admit it is a bit ironic, but one would think people hadn't done this anywhere else in the world.....

1. Locate a non-gay pub in your chosen socioeconomic class (the more expensive the pub, the better employed and more probably English-speaking will be the clientele).

2. Verify that it has mixed clientele by inspection- groups of girls with guys are what you are looking for here. All guy groups and all girl groups are generally straighter.

3. Find a place. Order a drink. Enjoy yourself. Look like you are enjoying yourself. If this is your first visit to this pub (and it would be better if it were not), check out how people dress and act. Try to blend in. Do not be aggressive, do not stare fixedly, do not expect people to act like anything that anyone has ever seen in a Silom bar.

4. Do not be the first person to start flirting with other people. Wait until you see people flirting. (notice people flirting). This happens at different times in different places.

5. Flirt in a light, friendly way with likely gay guys you might want to meet using eye contact. If they seem encouraging, continue. If not, pick someone else and repeat.

6. When you have located someone who responds to your flirting, after a while step over and say hello. Ask a few friendly questions in Thai (preferably) or easy English (until you know if/how much he speaks). Don't push things.

7. See if there's any positive response (i.e., he comes over and chats, too). If not, back to step 5 again.

8. Once you are talking, make sure you are not barking up the wrong tree by TELLING HIM HE'S REALLY CUTE (it would be good to pick someone you think is really cute). Since this is Thailand, you aren't risking much by doing this even in a 'straight' place. Besides, you're both intoxicated by now, right?

9. If all of this goes well, eventually you should exchange phone numbers (have a mobile phone). That's enough. Call and chat the next day and be a little bit more direct (like, tell him you are gay). If you haven't misread things terribly, this is the leadup to your first date.

P.S. He's with his friends. He's not going to come on to you in a big way, or go home with you (he doesn't even really know you yet). Have some respect.

P.P.S. And since he's with his friends, try not to alienate them. Unless they're really, really annoying (in which case maybe you should go back to step 5 anyway).

P.P.P.S If you're unlucky and his language and behaviour start saying 'tourist scene' to you, ditch as soon as possible and go back to step 5.

That's about as simple as I can make it. I should highlight that this is a DIFFERENT SCENE both from Touristland and from Bangkok all-gay bars.

With a bit of subtlety and finesse, you can make this work also in restaurants, coffee shops- pretty much anywhere in public. Enjoy the strangeness of 'meeting people' and 'socialising'. With some practice, your dating life can include 'normal gay Thais who have lives and jobs'.

[onthemoon]

Very nice! And, I think this is applicable in many countries, not only in Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

I've edited a couple of minor errors above, otherwise I'm still pretty happy with it.

A couple more minor points to be aware of:

1. It helps if you are in the same age range, socioeconomic class, etc. as the people in the pub you choose. If you are MUCH older or younger, and/or richer OR poorer, things could get a bit awkward unless you understand how to play those social roles here.

2. You will probably need to enjoy Thai music.

[tombkk]

They play international music at RCA. It's a good place to meet guys, too.

[Ijustwannateach]

A good place to try the above for newbies, especially as it is big enough that no one is really going to notice if you make a bit of a fool of yourself, which is probably required until one gets the hang of things...

[tombkk]

Actually, my first BF in Thailand I met after about a year of moving here. We were introduced by a straight friend who didn't have a clue that either of us were gay. We met and just connected right away, even though it took a few weeks before we had our first one-on-one meeting. We were a couple for 4 and 1/2 years.

In fact, I had met most of my BFs in Germany in straight environments.

My current BF, who I have been together with for 9 years with no end in sight, I met through the introduction of a mutual gay friend. Actually, that friend had fancied me, but I think he's a nice guy (that's all).

[Ijustwannateach]

^It would make sense that stronger relationships come from initial meetings based on shared interests- like those you would have with friends or activities you normally do- instead of simple physical vibes.

[quattro19]

This is a great discussion.. have anyone ever tried Falabella? I ofthen think there are alot of guys there that plays on our team...

Where else do you find this? Aqua? Diplomat?

[onthemoon]

This is a great discussion.. have anyone ever tried Falabella? I ofthen think there are alot of guys there that plays on our team...

Where else do you find this? Aqua? Diplomat?

What is Falabella: A bar, pub, discotheque? No, I don't know it. Where is it? Same holds true for Aqua or Diplomat. Are these places in Bangkok?

And where are you from? I have heard the expression "guys who play on the other team" only from straight people so far, not ever heard the reference to "our team".

[quattro19]

This is a great discussion.. have anyone ever tried Falabella? I ofthen think there are alot of guys there that plays on our team...

Where else do you find this? Aqua? Diplomat?

What is Falabella: A bar, pub, discotheque? No, I don't know it. Where is it? Same holds true for Aqua or Diplomat. Are these places in Bangkok?

And where are you from? I have heard the expression "guys who play on the other team" only from straight people so far, not ever heard the reference to "our team".

Falabella is Local bar across from St. Regis. If you drive in this area at weekend nights you will see tons of cars parked in front. Aqua: outdoor bar at 4seasons, Diplomat: Conrad Hotel.

Im a from Bangkok actually.. i have recently realized the difference between the gay guys i met in gay bars, online and straight bars. The first two places you are more likely to find guys that just wanna get in your pants and not really interested in you and probably, normally quite shallow and have very little to offer themselves. Everyonce in a while tho, those good one will come around, but don't hold your breath. From my experience, PLU that i meet in a str8 bar are more on the same wavelength. They are either sick of the gayscene as well or never been to one. Altho there is always a thrill/risk of chatting one up at. Like i mentioned in the last post. Even if you get an eye contact, or they randomly come up to you. it doesn't always mean they are gay... or that they will admit they are. its always a gamble!

[asanee]

My current BF, who I have been together with for 9 years with no end in sight, I met through the introduction of a mutual gay friend. Actually, that friend had fancied me, but I think he's a nice guy (that's all).

In fact this seems to me the most common way relations start up here in TH. By a mutual introduction from someone-like so many normal Thai-is just trying to help and be nice and friendly. Might be interesting if IJWT could make an alternative for those whho do not fancy bars anymore or at all, are too old for that etc.

[tombkk]

My current BF, who I have been together with for 9 years with no end in sight, I met through the introduction of a mutual gay friend. Actually, that friend had fancied me, but I think he's a nice guy (that's all).

In fact this seems to me the most common way relations start up here in TH. By a mutual introduction from someone-like so many normal Thai-is just trying to help and be nice and friendly. Might be interesting if IJWT could make an alternative for those whho do not fancy bars anymore or at all, are too old for that etc.

If you are not going out it will be difficult to meet people... I'm not sure what IJWT could do about it, but let's see what he says.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, as long as you are a *bit* more subtle, the same idea can be applied to restaurants, coffee shops, etc.- with the caveat that people won't necessarily be expecting to meet people in that way going out.

Heck, for a brief period before I found better venues I was flirting out on the street, on the BTS, in the local market! If it leads up to a phone number there's your opportunity!

[LeCharivari]

My current BF, who I have been together with for 9 years with no end in sight, I met through the introduction of a mutual gay friend. Actually, that friend had fancied me, but I think he's a nice guy (that's all).

In fact this seems to me the most common way relations start up here in TH. By a mutual introduction from someone-like so many normal Thai-is just trying to help and be nice and friendly. Might be interesting if IJWT could make an alternative for those whho do not fancy bars anymore or at all, are too old for that etc.

The best way which I can think of to meet "normal Thais" is in "normal" places in "normal" ways. As long as you are reasonably pleasant, reasonably presentable and reasonably hygienic I have never been able to understand what all the fuss is about and why gay4who et al (How the Thai Gays Operate) find it all so difficult or so unpleasant and why bars are such a usual part of the recipe.

After living here for nearly 20 years (plus some time on holidays previously) the biggest difference I have found between Thailand and most other countries is that Thais don't consider being gay (at least for Thais) as being particularly unusual or out of the ordinary - as tombkk has pointed out a number of times "Gays mix with straight people, I think the invention of "gay bars" and "gay discotheques" and "gay restaurants" is an import from the West. Thai society is much more separated along social classes than sexual orientation." Sexual preference is far, far less important than social or economic status. It doesn't affect employment, for example, as it might elsewhere so although in some countries it may still be true that most identifiable gays are typecast (or even mainly employed) as hairdressers, designers, air stewards or rent boys that doesn't apply in Thailand and so you are as likely (allowing for the obvious differences in numbers) to meet gays in normal daily life as you are straights (assuming that you have a normal daily life).

There's simply no need for those who lead a relatively "normal" life (and are reasonably pleasant, etc) to go through all this rigmarole of following steps, working at it, picking likely venues, etc, etc, just in order to meet "normal Thai gays" - they are everywhere in Thailand and, unlike some other countries, they seldom go out of their way to hide their sexual preferences because they have no need to. The vast majority of Thai gays aren't found just in the gay bars, or in "bars" at all - most of them, for most of the time, are going about their "normal" lives. I know (know as in am acquainted with rather than necessarily familiar with) "normal gay Thais" who are lawyers, doctors, dentists, businessmen, bank managers, hotel managers, police (from Brigadier/Special Colonel to phon tamruat), college lecturers, teachers, vets, nurses and customs officers, as well as farmers, labourers, and shop sales staff; one drives the local ice delivery truck, and there are at least four working in Chonburi Immigration; not unusually, I also know a number of gay Thais who work in the commercial sex trade. Apart from the latter, I've met very few Thai gays in bars, gay or straight, "real" or commercial. Some of those I've met (a few) are my "type", some (most) are not, just as I am probably not the"type" for most of them, but I meet them as a matter of "normal" daily routine - just as I do straight people.

I simply can't understand why people have to go out of their way to a bar to "meet a normal gay guy" when most "normal gay guys" seldom go to bars (rather like most "normal guys") - and the absolute last thing I want to do is to chat up or "flirt" with anyone my own age and socio-economic class - its one thing having them as friends, but the thought of doing something physical with someone like myself, Thai or farang, is not something I even want to think about. In my experience here you can meet three types of "Thai gays", and if you have to make any particular effort to make contact and break the ice you are probably doing something wrong (or in the wrong place):

Normal Gay Thai Guys:

found in equally "normal" places, doing equally "normal" things, or by introduction at a "normal" function. They cover the range of all "normal" people (good, bad and indifferent, young and old, attractive and unpleasant, etc). Most of those I know in long term relationships met their partners this way (my partner and I, whom I have been with for 10 years, met fishing). Openly "flirting" (such as telling someone they were "really cute") isn't something I'd personally consider "normal" the first time I met someone outside a gay bar, and doing so would reduce me (or them) to the "cruising" rather than the "normal" category.

Cruising Gay Thai Guys:

found, unsurprisingly, in Thai gay "cruising" bars, which are similar to cruising bars anywhere - somewhere for those looking for short term sex with no strings and no cash involved. Most bars are slightly "off the beaten track", and the clientele often have a similar mien.

found anywhere in Thailand, although farangs openly "cruising" normal Thais who may often be neither interested nor available may not earn themselves (or other farangs) the best reputation. Sometimes and in some places this is acceptable, but often its either embarrasing or insulting. On the other hand, when I get "cruised" by a gay Thai (which happens occasionaly but sadly rather less now than it used to) I usually feel flattered.

found in Gay Romeo and similar websites (although in Thailand most of those who are relatively young and attractive will be commercial and expect at least a generous "taxi fare", even if they don't advertise it.)

Commercial Gay (or Gay for Pay) Thai Guys:

found in commercial gay bars (go-go bars, host beer bars, karaoke bars, etc) as well as "gay night clubs" in commercial areas, where you can save the "off" fee, but you'll pay a lot more for the mixers and drinks and be expected to pay a "taxi fare". Very simple: pay your money and take your choice - there's usually a selection easily available to suit all tastes (and most budgets).

found in Gay Romeo, as above (some people find a "taxi fare" more palatable than a straight tip).

found anywhere in Thailand - even commercial guys (and girls) go home and on holiday and most are readily recognisable (if they want to be) and some are happy to "take work home" and even flattered by the attention (as long as they are commercial, otherwise they are lkely to be insulted).

Its all Horses for Courses, I suppose - or maybe the chiasmus, Courses for Horses, if you're looking at locations .... and sometimes you want a thoroughbred, and othertimes just a good hack ....

[endure]

I simply can't understand why people have to go out of their way to a bar to "meet a normal gay guy" when most "normal gay guys" seldom go to bars (rather like most "normal guys") - and the absolute last thing I want to do is to chat up or "flirt" with anyone my own age and socio-economic class - its one thing having them as friends, but the thought of doing something physical with someone like myself, Thai or farang, is not something I even want to think about.

[Ijustwannateach]

*Yawn*!

[tombkk]

I simply can't understand why people have to go out of their way to a bar to "meet a normal gay guy" when most "normal gay guys" seldom go to bars (rather like most "normal guys") - and the absolute last thing I want to do is to chat up or "flirt" with anyone my own age and socio-economic class - its one thing having them as friends, but the thought of doing something physical with someone like myself, Thai or farang, is not something I even want to think about.

Hm. I know many people who wouldn't fancy themselves if they met their doppelganger in the disco. May it be because of age preferences, or weight, or even gender! Many people like people who are different from them.

[tombkk]

I think this is a good essay, LC. One point I slightly disagree with: "Openly "flirting" (such as telling someone they were "really cute") isn't something I'd personally consider "normal" the first time I met someone outside a gay bar". Define flirting.

If I want to flirt with someone, I certainly don't tell him how cute he is. I will smile at him in a certain way that can be understood as as flirting, or just as a friendly smile. His eyes will tell me how he understood it, and straight people in the vicinity won't even notice. Eye contact will be the only contact for a while, and the first words will be something along the lines "hi my name is...", which is still an intro that can be understood both ways.

So, what is "flirting"?

[LeCharivari]

I think this is a good essay, LC. One point I slightly disagree with: "Openly "flirting" (such as telling someone they were "really cute") isn't something I'd personally consider "normal" the first time I met someone outside a gay bar". Define flirting

.....

So, what is "flirting"?

I don't think we're actually in disagreement at all, Tom, as it all depends on what you call "flirting" - rather like what is good or bad taste, it obviously means different things to different people and what some consider "flirting" others would call insulting, depending on the circumstances.

I suppose those farangs who tried to chat up my partner in the shopping mall with such subtle first-liners as "You like me?" and "Can I <deleted> you?" thought they were flirting ... and if a total stranger who had just approached me told me I was "REALLY CUTE" I'd either be looking for their white stick or the nearest bucket to vomit into.

What you describe (smiling, eye contact, etc) is something which I don't think I or most "normal" people would have any problem with under "normal" circumstances, particularly in Thailand for farangs "flirting" with Thais outside gay bars, but more than that would simply be what my mother would have described as "rather gauche" - the sort of person it would attract would be unlikely to be the sort of person I'd want a serious relationship with, and while BP (Before Partner) I was quite happy to get "it" if it happened and eyes met, etc, I have never been that desperate that I could be bothered to go to all this trouble and, had I been, I'd have either changed my mouthwash or my tailor.

"Hullo hansum man" when you go past a Pattaya/Patpong bar is par for the course and is usually good for a smile, however unattractive the person saying it may be (allowing for beauty being in the eye of the beholder!), but to me anything along those lines is strictly for the commercial or cruising scene and deserves an immediate red card in "normal" circumstances.

Edited February 23, 2012 by LeCharivari

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm afraid this topic is about bars (particularly ostensibly 'straight' bars). If you don't like it, post your own topic. I have deleted some off-topic material. Please keep further posts on topic.

[Ijustwannateach]

PS. I don't intend to enter into any kind of discussion with detractors who historically have their own special dictionary for English- however, one word that they apparently missed in the very first post of this thread was 'irony'. It is quite sad to see people taking my post so literally. Such persons also have quite a bit of trouble with 'light-hearted'. However, 'troll', 'multiple-account poster' and 'sock-puppet' are pretty familiar to them, as well as 'stalking'. Word to the wise is sufficient.

[asanee]

lets go a little further; after also many years partly lving here in Thailand/Bkk mainly: is it really worth all that trouble? Chasing after hi-so Thai? If you follow IJWT lessons: learn Thai (of course that is done in 1-2 weeks-even after 20 yrs youll never reach their level), spend a few 1000 on wine, in the hope that you may meet someone. And if it happens-pfuh-my belly is full of those hi-so Thai. You will be exploited to the last-as they cannot even think of any other way to treat people below their own hi-so standards and corruption circles. It is be eaten-always that phee/nong relation. That quaint western idea of ''2 mates together and sharing'' it simply does not exist here. Plus I guess it was some strange idea from the 60ies and bound to die with the death of that generation.

Go to a bar or massageshop and for that few 1000 you have instant relaxation without all that fuss. Plus that ''cruising to normal Thai'' as detailed above always involves those (for me) sickly black label or other whiskey sets, deafening loud music, only starting when I go to sleep and more annoyance.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Fair enough, Asanee- it depends on the commitment level to Thailand and how long you are or want to be here. I don't think tourists should try what I suggested above- it does depend on use of Thai language. But it doesn't have to be fluent.

The people in those venues are not necessarily 'hi-so'- but they are most often employed, and might be good candidates for real relationships- but not everyone is looking for that.

But we had someone asking for alternatives to the dodgy tourist-hunters and other mercenary types and their venues, and that's what I posted.

It works even more reliably in 'normal' gay bars (i.e., not the p4p places), but many of those are more down-market in terms of clientele- and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, depending on what you're looking for.

I understand what you mean about the late nights and the relatively inflexible drink options- some adaptation is required... I hate JW myself....

[JemJem]

I think the chance of meeting gay guys in 'straight-bars' is not that little but the chance of meeting bisexual guys is a lot higher.

For me, I don't mind dating a bisexual guy but I would prefer dating a gay guy.

Jem

[LeCharivari]

.....

It works even more reliably in 'normal' gay bars (i.e., not the p4p places), but many of those are more down-market in terms of clientele- and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, depending on what you're looking for.

......

"down-market" .... for once we are in total agreement, IJWT.

[xbunnyx]

I'm normal curious. I dot know if I'm gay or not but I think I fancy guys. I'm a completely virgin. I've been looking for some gay friends on Internet. But it didnt work out that way. Most of them are just wanke_rs. I have never been to gay bars or something like that before so I'm kind of innocent to these things. Sometimes I expect to meet some gay friends in the shopping mall in Siam. But I've never got a luck. Actually I don't live here in Bangkok but I live in Ayutthaya (the old Capitol) and I have never met gay farangs before. Only my friends said that they have seen a lot of gay farangs. I still hope that some day I'll get to know some good gay friends.

My mate in bkk asked me to go to Silom with him to see how things are. I went with him and it was okay for me. I didn't like that much cos people there just like one night stand. Not for long relationship. But I'll try to make some new friends there soon. Maybe at the bars.

[Ijustwannateach]

Good luck. Coming out takes different amounts of time for different people.

[pauleddy]

After seven years here, I continue to find it very difficult to meet someone on a 50-50 I-like-you-like-me basis.

The, ahem...lo-so Thais, with few exceptions, have expectations that you will pay more food, drinks, rent, etc, etc, than they will. I have had three "long" partners in seven years. The longest one was, and is, a lovely guy but expects me to pay for some of his household goods and dental bills even 2 years after splitting up (silly me, yes). The shortest "affair" was three or four months..and he naturally expected me to pay almost everything. As somebody said, the value system is different, especially where one guy is younger, but not only...

A friend who has been here 25 years (and is a Harvard PhD) considers it a "tax". He has been paying out to his BF's family for 20 of those years, and it is like a sunk cost. In my country we pay social security. Here, you pay the BF's bills and family bills. Just keep on paying your taxes, folks.

The hi-so ones, as somebody above said, live in a dog-eat-dog world with eachother. They are not interested in your money, but are very interested in deception/controlling you/or just having a trophy farang. Lying and infidelity come naturally (this also applies to the "lo-so"). I find that the Hi-So are more interested in Benzes and Prada Bags than sincerity. This is about 90% of them. Sure, sure, I have met some charming and genuine people; often old money and understated, but certainly in the minority

Of course, there is a huge chasm of dissonance caused by a huge chip-on-shoulder. Many of them (any-so) want to be "white" (or western?) (and even use the skin creams)...but it is more than skin deep. Hollywood and other influences have ensured that "the smartest brightest richest nicest sexiest people" are white and have Benzes, and so must be emulated. This sets up a dissonance which is almost schizoid. On the one hand, they are told that it is great to be Thai and 'free' and to live in the 'best country' in the world, the country which everybody adores. On the other hand, it would be better to look like Brad Pitt and have all the trappings of the Brads of this world, although they can never be Brad. Combine this with other dissonances which are inherent in the 'system' (and not created by farang) and your poor child-like emotions (yes, Thais can be so loveable) get even more confused. OK...my arguments are all oversimplifications, but you get the idea?

I had an epiphany yesterday. I made a (rare) visit to a sauna--not Babylon. On the way, the taxi driver pleaded no change from 100b. Then I got ripped-off buying a phone-card (silly me, I paid 300b for a 200b card). When I got into the sauna, at least three people sniggered to friends ("look at that @@@@ farang there"). Normally, I ignore rubbish, because I am in my own little fish bowl, working, playing, keeping house. But I have realised, once again, that most of them don't like us being here. We contribute a lot, and some of us teach their kids or even marry them. But, it is true, as a sage told me, that you will never be truly accepted because the hypocrisy-related dissonance (or dissonance-related hypocrisy?) and the covert racism are as big as the 2004 tsunami.

By all means, tell me again that there are 50 planes a day if I hate it so much. But it saddens me now. If you have found a partner to love, trust, cherish and support, and it is really 50-50, then you are the luckiest guy I know.

Land of Smiles? I never believed it. It is the land of rent boys, snake oil sellers and sniggers. Look at how they treat eachother. You don't have to be Freud to work it out. It's staring at you in every soi and in every bar.

Please God, send me a helicopter soon.

[LeCharivari]

Of course, there is a huge chasm of dissonance caused by a huge chip-on-shoulder. ........ OK...my arguments are all oversimplifications, but you get the idea?

I think so ... not so much a " huge" chip, but more of a HUGE chip.

If I recall correctly, at one time you were enquiring here about UK Civil Partnerships for you and your then Thai BF, which I would take as an indication that you were very close for some time - is paying for some dental bills really such an imposition under those circumstances?

I also recall that in January of this year you were asking about Army conscription as your then BF was due for the Army draw last month. That would make him 20, while you are on a retirement extension so at least 30 years his senior. So what? I know a number of couples here where such an age gap has proven to be no problem at all (without any "paying out" to the BF's family); in the UK, however, you could more or less guarantee that such a relationship would be met by "sniggers" both behind your back and to your face and that as a foreigner under those circumstances you would "never be truly accepted" and that the discrimination you would routinely face would be anything but "covert".

Thailand, at least for me, is far from perfect but I've met "normal Thai Gays" in straight bars, gay bars, on the beach, etc, and those you describe have been in the minority here and would be found in similar surroundings (hi and lo) pretty well anywhere in the world. No offence, Pauleddy, as you've obviously been told it before, but as Old Bill said: "if you knows a better 'ole, go to it".

[pauleddy]

Thanks to Sherlock Chari for tracking my message history (or just having the memory larger than that of Big Blue). It was not my intention to focus on two specific events within my life here. I was merely trying to illustrate the general 'dissonance' and covert attitudes that I believe (rightly or wrongly) to exist here. Chari, you really should get out more!

I was enquiring about UK "marriage" about 3-4 years ago (true), because even then I wanted to get out of this place but felt "responsible" for the welfare of my then BF, and wanted him to obtain my pension rights and other civil stuff.

My current BF is, in fact, 23...and never asks for money, although there are other imbalances.

The sniggers I described were not as a result of going to a sauna with my younger BF. I was there alone, but felt unwelcome and resented. The other observations were based on longer-term perceptions formulated after seven or eight years of living here, and observing Thais at work and at play in several major institutions, or simply at play in social interactions.

Old Bill gave sound advice, which I should heed. In the British English vernacular, Old Bill means policeman. Was he employed thus?

P E