How Did You Learn The Tone Rules For Reading?

[Learned]

Thanks Puschl. That is very helpful.

I have learnt the consonant classes i.e. high, mid, low class and which ones are sonorant/stop and also the names of the tone markers.

But I haven't learnt the rules apart from the basic ones i.e. mid con + long vowel = mid tone. Once the final consonants and tone marks start coming into the equation I get lost quickly in terms of both remembering the rule and 'calculating' the properties of the word/syllable.

How have people used Anki to learn the rules?

[ollyKS]

Forget tones on most words.

Remember tones on the 10-20 words in frequent use with different meanings.

(Cow, Maa, Key, Mai, etc)

Spend the time saved increasing your vocab.

This is appalling advice. Many Thais are not accustomed to hearing foreigners mangle Thai so pronunciation and tones are very important.

To answer the original question: Pick a word (preferably one you already know) for each rule, stick them on a little card with a very brief explanation as to why it is the tone it is. Whenever you see any written Thai, try and work out what tone the words are, if you cannot work out what tone it is, glance at your card. It will come very naturally within a couple of days.

[weary]

Forget vowels on most words.

Remember vowels on the 10-20 words in frequent use with different meanings.

(I, you, come, go, what)

Result:

Spond thu tame sivad uncroosang yeer vycub.

[tgeezer]

Forget tones on most words.

Remember tones on the 10-20 words in frequent use with different meanings.

(Cow, Maa, Key, Mai, etc)

Spend the time saved increasing your vocab.

This is appalling advice. Many Thais are not accustomed to hearing foreigners mangle Thai so pronunciation and tones are very important.

To answer the original question: Pick a word (preferably one you already know) for each rule, stick them on a little card with a very brief explanation as to why it is the tone it is. Whenever you see any written Thai, try and work out what tone the words are, if you cannot work out what tone it is, glance at your card. It will come very naturally within a couple of days.

What a brilliant idea, that would have definitely worked for me.

[Gladiator]

Forget tones on most words.

Remember tones on the 10-20 words in frequent use with different meanings.

(Cow, Maa, Key, Mai, etc)

Spend the time saved increasing your vocab.

I have to stand with Luditeman here.

Depends on is what your objective

want to be a cunning linquist?

or just communicate?

To what extent do you wish to be able to speak and even read Thai such as newspapers? Even if you master the alphabet, upper and lower notations - ever try to read Thai in block paragraphs?

If you wish to to be able to fully understand and communicate inThai Language then the best method may be total immersion. Still, that has its draw backs. I learnt 'central' Thai and live in Chang Mai. Many of the words in local dialect are not comprehensable to me as my spoken Thai is not to many of the North Thai locals. Dito as my wife is from Khon Kaen in Issan and they also have their own dialect.

I acknowledge that 'tones' are imprtant' but only is so far as the degree that you wish to speak Thai language.

IMHO

[Delight]

I found the TONE RULES just too difficult to get my head around.Not to understand -just to remember.

So I distilled the information and produced a couple of charts.

This may help you. Please refer to charts attached

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Explanation

The actual tones are represented by

H high ,M mid, F falling L low R rising

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Reading the CHART A - No tone mark

1. On the horizontal axis select the consonant at the beginning of the syllable.
   

2) Select the column that describes the end of the syllable

Where these 2 meet is your answer.

Note i The potential syllable end i.e.- S.V + Y W M N Ng -is not featured . In this specific case it is the end consonant that controls

Note ii the Y means ย W means ว

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reading CHART B – With Tone Mark

where the consonant group and the mark crosses is the answer.

(The only real place to carry these charts (once you are comfortable with them) is in your head

They have never let me down.)

Edited March 23, 2012 by Delight

[Learned]

Thanks Delight. I will have a look at those charts.

[Learned]

Is it correct to say that for all the consonant classes, does a syllable/word that ends with a long vowel always have the same tone as a syllable that ends with a sonorant final (M,N,NG,W,Y)?

And a syllable that ends with a stop final (K,P,T) or a short vowel always has the same tone?

Edited March 25, 2012 by Learned

[Richard W]

Yes to both.

[meadish_sweetball]

Correct. (And so is Richard).

[peteinchina]

I tend to agree too. I spent a couple of years in China and they are really fussy, refuse to understand a wrong tone even in context - taxi drivers who don't understand Lu (road) in the wrong tone..... hmmmm.

Anyway, the Thais are way more forgiving, and I find that I stumble through. Also, listening really carefully helps. It's hard for an ear untrained in a tonal language to even pick up the tones, let alone replicate them with a mouth that doesn't make quite the right shapes.

Really, the best way by far is actual personal instruction. Books can only take you so far, which is not very far at all.....

Get a gf I say....

sorry! - quoting gladiator, up there ^^^ a few posts...

Edited March 26, 2012 by peteinchina

[tgeezer]

And a syllable that ends with a stop final (K,P,T) or a short vowel always has the same tone?

Aren't ขด ดด คด คอบ syllables ending in a stop final and ขะ กะ คะ syllables ending in short vowels? Naturally each has only one tone but they are not the same tone. Am I reading, any syllable that, rather than, a syllable that ? Is 'A syllable that has a final stop said in one tone' a rule with any purpose?

Here is a better question for those who know.

A book called หลักภาษาไทย by จงชัย เจนหัตถการกิจ says that with a closed syllable เอือะ เอียะ อัวะ are not shown and written long เรียก เสือก พวก. I wonder if they follow the tone rules in the case of เรียก พวก. ie เสียงตรี

I have always assumed that those two words were long and nobody has said anything. If these can't be distinguished how many others are are there? เลือก เปรียบ เทียบ รวบ

[meadish_sweetball]

A book called หลักภาษาไทย by จงชัย เจนหัตถการกิจ says that with a closed syllable เอือะ เอียะ อัวะ are not shown and written long เรียก เสือก พวก. I wonder if they follow the tone rules in the case of เรียก พวก. ie เสียงตรี

The words เรียก เสือก พวก have long vowels, so they take the falling tone. In the spoken language they also take the falling tone. I don't know based on what rationale the author claims they actually contain short vowels. Or perhaps he simply chooses to write the vowels with a final ะ because they look incomplete without it, and he is discussing the base form of the vowel, which is not yet realised as either short or long, and then goes on to discuss factual examples of how the base vowel is realised in different contexts? Hard to say without having read the book.

[steveromagnino]

The biggest thing is to be able to actually pronounce all 5 tones; mah mah mah mah mah again and again until you can do mid low falling high rising.

Once you actually know what you are aiming for, then it becomes somewhat easier to say, ah ok this ghost is a rising tone, so then I can say it because I know how to say a rising tone.

It is surprising how many farang I have met who have a complete understanding (more than me) of the tonal rules, but when they say it the tones all come out the same vowel length (short) and tone (mid).

Of course, the best way to learn is to learn some jokes, such as saying you are learning tones, and then say mah mah mah mah mah. And then start with mid low falling high rising for the hee sequence.... ;_)

If it gets a laugh, you must be getting somewhere.

Trying to speak pidgeon Thai without tones would be like trying to write english without any vowels.

Also...carrying a book and writing down the words and running through them always helps.

Actually, maybe I should have followed my own advice at some point.....

[tgeezer]

A book called หลักภาษาไทย by จงชัย เจนหัตถการกิจ says that with a closed syllable เอือะ เอียะ อัวะ are not shown and written long เรียก เสือก พวก. I wonder if they follow the tone rules in the case of เรียก พวก. ie เสียงตรี

The words เรียก เสือก พวก have long vowels, so they take the falling tone. In the spoken language they also take the falling tone. I don't know based on what rationale the author claims they actually contain short vowels. Or perhaps he simply chooses to write the vowels with a final ะ because they look incomplete without it, and he is discussing the base form of the vowel, which is not yet realised as either short or long, and then goes on to discuss factual examples of how the base vowel is realised in different contexts? Hard to say without having read the book.

I think if people said พวก เรียก and took as long to say it as พูวาก รียาก we would notice and I don't. Maybe we don't say เอือเฟื้อ long enough.

quote:

เพราะไม่มีคู่เทียบเสียงระหว่างเสียงสั้นและเสียงยาว แต่แบงหน่วยเสียงย่อย เป็น เสียงย่อยสั้น และเสียงย่อยยาว เนื่องจาก สระเอียะ ที่ไม่มีต้วสะกด ที่พบในภาษาไทย มีเพียงคำว่า เดียะ เพียะ เบี๊ย เผียะ สระ อัวะ ที่ไม่มีตัวสะกด ในคำว่า ผัวะ พัวะ สระเอือะที่ไม่มีตัวสะกด ไม่มีที่ใช้ ดังนั้นสระประสมเสียงสั้น ส่วนใหญ่ก็อาศัยรูป เอือ เอีย อัว เช่น เรียก เสือม พวก ใช้รูปสระเสียงยาวแต่ออกเสียงสั้นเป็น เอียะ เอือะ อัวะ

I think that says that so few words with open endings use them and there is no conflict the words with closing syllables use the long form even though they are said short.

There is no way to show them anyway so either you assume that people are saying อูวา อียา อือา or that they are short and being pronounced in the wrong tone.

Apologies if there are spelling errors. This is the third time I have copied it out thanks to the magic of computers, and rather than improving, repetition seems to have the opposite effect on my typing.

Edit: ส่วนใหญ่ is interesting I wonder if it means mostly or always, because how can short vowel closed syllable be shown?

Edited March 27, 2012 by tgeezer

[katana]

A book called หลักภาษาไทย by จงชัย เจนหัตถการกิจ says that with a closed syllable เอือะ เอียะ อัวะ are not shown and written long เรียก เสือก พวก. I wonder if they follow the tone rules in the case of เรียก พวก. ie เสียงตรี

Aren't เรียก and พวก เสียงโท?

The words เรียก เสือก พวก have long vowels, so they take the falling tone. In the spoken language they also take the falling tone....

Isn't เสือก low tone?

งงแฮะ

Edited March 27, 2012 by katana

[meadish_sweetball]

Aren't เรียก and พวก เสียงโท?

Yes, they are. Falling.

Isn't เสือก low tone?

It sure is. That was my mistake.

[Richard W]

I read

ไม่มีคู่เทียบเสียงระหว่างเสียงสั้นและเสียงยาว

as:

"There are no contrasting pairs between the long sound and the short sound".

Actually, I have come across Thai claims that some indubitably closed syllables have long diphthongs and others have short diphthongs, but we only communicated in writing. Northern Thai and Lao do have short diphthongs in closed syllables - the Lao spellings can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_script. However, the vowels are far more commonly long.

When transliterating Northern Thai, maitaikhu is normally used. The rule used in books that if you can't right a mark above another you write it to the right, which I have also seen applied to tone marks in public signs. When typeset, the maitaikhu normally ends up on the following consonant.

[tgeezer]

I read

ไม่มีคู่เทียบเสียงระหว่างเสียงสั้นและเสียงยาว

as:

"There are no contrasting pairs between the long sound and the short sound".

Actually, I have come across Thai claims that some indubitably closed syllables have long diphthongs and others have short diphthongs, but we only communicated in writing. Northern Thai and Lao do have short diphthongs in closed syllables - the Lao spellings can be seen at http://en.wikipedia....iki/Lao_script. However, the vowels are far more commonly long.

When transliterating Northern Thai, maitaikhu is normally used. The rule used in books that if you can't right a mark above another you write it to the right, which I have also seen applied to tone marks in public signs. When typeset, the maitaikhu normally ends up on the following consonant.

I did take a while to work out what คู่เทียบเสียงระหว่าง (pair alongside sound between sounds) meant I came to the conclusion that it meant that since both are long or short and said together there was no way of knowing whether they were long or short unlike สาระ for instance.

This book is standard Thai and says that อ็ replaces อะ in เอะ แอะ and เอาะ in words like น + เอาะ + ก = น็อก

in fact it says that ล่อกแล่ก ว่อกแว่ก are also เอาะ at least this gives อ่ a purpose.

The conclusion has to be that this is something which I shall rapidly forget, as befits someone who is not in the language business, and just copy Thais in their pronunciation.