Nuclear reactor temperature at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi plant rises to 82°C

[midas]

" We are now within two months weeks of what may be humankind’s most dangerous moment since the Cuban Missile Crisis ".

one thing certain about this crisis is that Tepco does not have the scientific, engineering or financial resources to handle it. Nor does the Japanese government. The situation demands a coordinated worldwide effort of the best scientists and engineers our species can muster.

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2013/1985

Edited November 9, 2013 by midas

[midas]

I've actually read all of this thread, although I must admit I am not always looking for information, a lot of times I am looking for violations of the rules, so excuse my ignorance, but I thought the Japanese had agreed to international help with this? Correct or not?

Yes you are correct Scott that the Japanese government did make this announcement not so long ago but there are mixed signals.

It is confusing because you still read comments from nuclear experts such as Igor Ostretsov who said just recently " I can’t make out just why the Japanese are reluctant to take strong measures. Japan is clearly unable to cope with the situation on its own, so what’s needed is an international emergency effort."

And if the Japanese government was really serious about inviting international help, I would have thought that an independent international body of experts should have been placed in charge instead of TEPCO still making all the key decisions? Its TEPCO that will still be attempting what everyone is describing as an incredibly dangerous exercise in November when they start removing the spent fuel rods and yet with all the mistakes this company has made and cover-up so far ( including lying to the Japan Govt ), it is very questionable whether they should be trusted to do this without international participation and that just doesn't seem to be happening?

TEPCO seems to have an unbelievable ( and in some ways unhealthy ) influence in this matter.

http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_10_19/Fukushima-situation-calls-for-international-emergency-work-expert-0809/

Another one of those contradictory statements made just two days ago on KABC LOS ANGELES

The government has requested that Tokyo Electric and Power or TEPCO, be in charge of the cleanup. It is a private, for profit, company.

"The cleanup job is too large for their capability," Yamada said.

"It's like the fox overseeing the chicken coop, and it's a huge problem," Hara said.

Makhijani says TEPCO and the Japanese government have refused international help.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/world_news&id=9317789

[MJP]

I've actually read all of this thread, although I must admit I am not always looking for information, a lot of times I am looking for violations of the rules, so excuse my ignorance, but I thought the Japanese had agreed to international help with this? Correct or not?

Yes you are correct Scott that the Japanese government did make this announcement not so long ago but there are mixed signals.

It is confusing because you still read comments from nuclear experts such as Igor Ostretsov who said just recently " I can’t make out just why the Japanese are reluctant to take strong measures. Japan is clearly unable to cope with the situation on its own, so what’s needed is an international emergency effort."

And if the Japanese government was really serious about inviting international help, I would have thought that an independent international body of experts should have been placed in charge instead of TEPCO still making all the key decisions? Its TEPCO that will still be attempting what everyone is describing as an incredibly dangerous exercise in November when they start removing the spent fuel rods and yet with all the mistakes this company has made and cover-up so far ( including lying to the Japan Govt ), it is very questionable whether they should be trusted to do this without international participation and that just doesn't seem to be happening?

TEPCO seems to have an unbelievable ( and in some ways unhealthy ) influence in this matter.

http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_10_19/Fukushima-situation-calls-for-international-emergency-work-expert-0809/

Another one of those contradictory statements made just two days ago on KABC LOS ANGELES

The government has requested that Tokyo Electric and Power or TEPCO, be in charge of the cleanup. It is a private, for profit, company.

"The cleanup job is too large for their capability," Yamada said.

"It's like the fox overseeing the chicken coop, and it's a huge problem," Hara said.

Makhijani says TEPCO and the Japanese government have refused international help.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/world_news&id=9317789

I think the UN nuclear watchdog had better focus resources on TEPCO and the Japanese government rather than Iran and North Korea, as Fukushima appears to be the immediate nuclear hazard.

[midas]

Yes you are correct Scott that the Japanese government did make this announcement not so long ago but there are mixed signals.

It is confusing because you still read comments from nuclear experts such as Igor Ostretsov who said just recently " I can’t make out just why the Japanese are reluctant to take strong measures. Japan is clearly unable to cope with the situation on its own, so what’s needed is an international emergency effort."

And if the Japanese government was really serious about inviting international help, I would have thought that an independent international body of experts should have been placed in charge instead of TEPCO still making all the key decisions? Its TEPCO that will still be attempting what everyone is describing as an incredibly dangerous exercise in November when they start removing the spent fuel rods and yet with all the mistakes this company has made and cover-up so far ( including lying to the Japan Govt ), it is very questionable whether they should be trusted to do this without international participation and that just doesn't seem to be happening?

TEPCO seems to have an unbelievable ( and in some ways unhealthy ) influence in this matter.

http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_10_19/Fukushima-situation-calls-for-international-emergency-work-expert-0809/

Another one of those contradictory statements made just two days ago on KABC LOS ANGELES

The government has requested that Tokyo Electric and Power or TEPCO, be in charge of the cleanup. It is a private, for profit, company.

"The cleanup job is too large for their capability," Yamada said.

"It's like the fox overseeing the chicken coop, and it's a huge problem," Hara said.

Makhijani says TEPCO and the Japanese government have refused international help.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/world_news&id=9317789

I think the UN nuclear watchdog had better focus resources on TEPCO and the Japanese government rather than Iran and North Korea, as Fukushima appears to be the immediate nuclear hazard.

It's not a dress rehearsal……………… they have only one chance to get it right

[midas]

Eerie but good English language documentary about nuclear waste from the Danish Film Institute

http://dotsub.com/view/8e40ebda-5966-4212-9b96-6abbce3c6577

[MJP]

Eerie but good English language documentary about nuclear waste from the Danish Film Institute

http://dotsub.com/view/8e40ebda-5966-4212-9b96-6abbce3c6577

I've had quotes for low level waste disposal into the Drigg LLW facility. £70,000 per 15 cubic yards of thorium and radium contaminated soil.

[Robby nz]

Imagine if the Philippines typhoon had struck the east coast of Japan.

And it can happen at any time.

[Scott]

A post violating fair use policy has been deleted. Please only post the headline and the first 3 sentences followed by a link to the remainder of the article. More than that is a problem.

[midas]

TEPCO recently released an animated film explaining the fuel rod removal procedure over the next 12 months.

BUT some nuclear experts like Arnie Gunderson regard this as inaccurate propaganda .........

so here debunkes TEPCO’s animated film point by point in a very good video

http://fairewinds.org/podcast/remove-tepco-removing-fuel

[midas]

TEPCO to start fuel removal from Fukushima No. 4 unit Monday (Nov. 18)

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2013/11/256732.html

Edited November 17, 2013 by midas

[boomerangutang]

Eerie but good English language documentary about nuclear waste from the Danish Film Institute

http://dotsub.com/view/8e40ebda-5966-4212-9b96-6abbce3c6577

Yes, eerie describes it well. Well crafted documentaries should be shown to schoolkids everywhere, though that one should not be shown to little kids (too scary, though it's based on fact) - probably best for high schoolers.

Native Americans are probably more in-tune with mother nature than many others, ...are firmly against a mega-project near the California/Arizona border, which proposes to keep nuclear waste safe for 150,000 years - buried in rock corridors.

That's just one of a hundred good reasons why solar and wind are preferable to nuclear.

[midas]

well here we go...........it has now been revealed there are 80 damaged spent fuel assemblies leaking radioactive materials in Fukushima storage pools — Kyodo: Removal attempt at Unit 4 starts later today — Japan nuclear official ‘nervous’, as one slip could result in monumental chain reaction. this is criminal in my opinion to allow these people to do this on their own

Here are excerpts from Kahoku Shinpo article translated by EXSKF,

The damages had been there long before the March 11, 2011 accident, and TEPCO claims it properly notified the national government as they discovered the damages. But the company has come clean in public only now.

This means it was known even when the 2020 Olympic Games venue was announced

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2013/11/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-tepco-admits.html

Edited November 18, 2013 by midas

[MJP]

well here we go...........it has now been revealed there are 80 damaged spent fuel assemblies leaking radioactive materials in Fukushima storage pools — Kyodo: Removal attempt at Unit 4 starts later today — Japan nuclear official ‘nervous’, as one slip could result in monumental chain reaction. this is criminal in my opinion to allow these people to do this on their own

Here are excerpts from Kahoku Shinpo article translated by EXSKF,

The damages had been there long before the March 11, 2011 accident, and TEPCO claims it properly notified the national government as they discovered the damages. But the company has come clean in public only now.

This means it was known even when the 2020 Olympic Games venue was announced

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2013/11/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-tepco-admits.html

Midas, have you seen any calculations or assessments on the scale of the chain reaction, should it all go a bit pear?

[midas]

well here we go...........it has now been revealed there are 80 damaged spent fuel assemblies leaking radioactive materials in Fukushima storage pools — Kyodo: Removal attempt at Unit 4 starts later today — Japan nuclear official ‘nervous’, as one slip could result in monumental chain reaction. this is criminal in my opinion to allow these people to do this on their own

Here are excerpts from Kahoku Shinpo article translated by EXSKF,

The damages had been there long before the March 11, 2011 accident, and TEPCO claims it properly notified the national government as they discovered the damages. But the company has come clean in public only now.

This means it was known even when the 2020 Olympic Games venue was announced

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2013/11/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-tepco-admits.html

Midas, have you seen any calculations or assessments on the scale of the chain reaction, should it all go a bit pear?

MJP I will try to find out more information to answer your question because I started corresponding by email with Fairwinds, because they seem to be the only people you can trust for independent information.

But in the meantime I would just note that the well-known Japanese-Canadian scientist David Suzuki said it would be big enough to “ decimate Japan and affect the entire West Coast of North America “

He said “ it’s bye, bye, Japan and everybody on the west coast of North America should be evacuated. And if that isn’t terrifying, I don’t know what is,”

Edited November 18, 2013 by midas

[midas]

After reading about the extent of the cover-up and just how dangerous the rod removal procedure is the question I keep asking myself now is how will the world know if there is some kind of accident over the next 12 months that involves criticality?

The physical damage to the reactors was impossible for them to hide from the world but radioactive gases are invisible - so how would anyone know if something goes wrong as they try to remove these rods but keep it covered up from the world even temporarily?

And don't forget they are relying on no earthquakes whatsoever (not even minor tremors) for a period of 12 months when there is constant seismic activity occurring

[MJP]

After reading about the extent of the cover-up and just how dangerous the rod removal procedure is the question I keep asking myself now is how will the world know if there is some kind of accident over the next 12 months that involves criticality?

The physical damage to the reactors was impossible for them to hide from the world but radioactive gases are invisible - so how would anyone know if something goes wrong as they try to remove these rods but keep it covered up from the world even temporarily?

And don't forget they are relying on no earthquakes whatsoever (not even minor tremors) for a period of 12 months when there is constant seismic activity occurring

The US will have real-time monitoring of alpha and beta particles, gamma sources and the signature isotopes of Fukushima contamination. It's is likely the US Navy has been doing this from Day Two. But only my opinion, needs confirmation.

[boomerangutang]

Below is a quote from an article in America's NPR news, today's edition:

"It's a slow process that will take more than a year, and there are still three other reactors to go," he says.

And then there are the three reactors that melted down, which will pose an even greater challenge.

"They have fuel not just in the pools above the reactors, but in the cores themselves. That fuel is melted down and it's going to take a very, very long time to even figure out how to get that fuel out," he says. "Then, on top of it all, the site is full of radioactive water and that continues to be a problem."

[midas]

Below is a quote from an article in America's NPR news, today's edition:

"It's a slow process that will take more than a year, and there are still three other reactors to go," he says.

And then there are the three reactors that melted down, which will pose an even greater challenge.

"They have fuel not just in the pools above the reactors, but in the cores themselves. That fuel is melted down and it's going to take a very, very long time to even figure out how to get that fuel out," he says. "Then, on top of it all, the site is full of radioactive water and that continues to be a problem."

easy to forget there is even worse to come after # 4 has been dealt with successfully (hopefully!)

But I simply don't understand why when even Japanese government ministers don't have confidence in TEPCO - they still allow this company to be in charge

TEPCO's management of the problems has been criticised as haphazard and uncoordinated, with one government minister saying it was like watching someone playing "whack-a-mole"

.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iEG6oMnyTtwvyLoraL8K28Z9Ficw?docId=81ee539c-9100-42ad-ae29-9d0957fa788b

[Chicog]

Midas, have you seen any calculations or assessments on the scale of the chain reaction, should it all go a bit pear?

[atsiii]

After reading about the extent of the cover-up and just how dangerous the rod removal procedure is the question I keep asking myself now is how will the world know if there is some kind of accident over the next 12 months that involves criticality?

The physical damage to the reactors was impossible for them to hide from the world but radioactive gases are invisible - so how would anyone know if something goes wrong as they try to remove these rods but keep it covered up from the world even temporarily?

And don't forget they are relying on no earthquakes whatsoever (not even minor tremors) for a period of 12 months when there is constant seismic activity occurring

The US will have real-time monitoring of alpha and beta particles, gamma sources and the signature isotopes of Fukushima contamination. It's is likely the US Navy has been doing this from Day Two. But only my opinion, needs confirmation.

I agree. I also think there has been purposeful downplaying of what the monitoring has been showing, especially in the NW USA. But if there is any inadvertent criticality, it will be largely if not completely uncontained and the whole world will know about it almost immediately. What they would do about it is a bigger question.

[midas]

So much for the need that there be no seismic activity near the site during the rod removal procedure…………………………….this one wasnt near luckily

M5.7 earthquake jolts eastern Japan; no tsunami alert

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/m5-7-earthquake-jolts-eastern-japan

Edited November 19, 2013 by midas

[Robby nz]

See it reported elsewhere that they have successfully removed 1 fuel rod from No4 but the whole process is expected to take at least 40 years.

[atsiii]

See it reported elsewhere that they have successfully removed 1 fuel rod from No4 but the whole process is expected to take at least 40 years.

They smartly began by removing an unused fuel rod(s). I think I read there are +/- 20 unused rods in the pool, so these would be the most structurally stable.

The fuel rod removal is scheduled to take about one year. The 40 years you read is for recovery of the fuel from the three reactors that melted down; as nobody has any idea how to do this.

[Scott]

So, if I don't know how to do something, I can wait 40 years and It will magically appear?

[atsiii]

So, if I don't know how to do something, I can wait 40 years and It will magically appear?

555... there is actually a lot of truth to your sarcasm. They (nuclear industry) honestly talk about their rational expectations that with improved technology, we will be able to do things tomorrow that we cannot do today. This is also how they justify putting waste in the ground for 100,000 years, because there is nothing they can do with it today.

Nobody has decommissioned a reactor that has completely melted down; so nobody really knows how to do it. They don't even know where the fuel actually is for the three reactors that melted down, or its condition. They only know they must remove the fuel from the #4 cooling pool before the severely compromised pool falls over, dumping its contents onto the ground in a completely uncontained catastrophe.

[midas]

So, if I don't know how to do something, I can wait 40 years and It will magically appear?

555... there is actually a lot of truth to your sarcasm. They (nuclear industry) honestly talk about their rational expectations that with improved technology, we will be able to do things tomorrow that we cannot do today. This is also how they justify putting waste in the ground for 100,000 years, because there is nothing they can do with it today.

Nobody has decommissioned a reactor that has completely melted down; so nobody really knows how to do it. They don't even know where the fuel actually is for the three reactors that melted down, or its condition. They only know they must remove the fuel from the #4 cooling pool before the severely compromised pool falls over, dumping its contents onto the ground in a completely uncontained catastrophe.

And that highlights a problem which was referred to in a CNN bulletin on November 7.

We might reach a situation where probably the most challenging exercise in the history of nuclear disasters is being carried out by less skilled or unskilled people!

5. How do you stop running out of skilled labor?

Workers within the Fukushima nuclear power plant have a radiation exposure limit. Once they reach this limit they can no longer work on site and new workers need to be found.

As time goes on, more experienced workers will reach their exposure limits, sparking concerns that available workers will have decreased skill levels.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/07/world/fukushima-nuclear-power-disaster-problems/

Edited November 24, 2013 by midas

[midas]

See it reported elsewhere that they have successfully removed 1 fuel rod from No4 but the whole process is expected to take at least 40 years.

you can see it here Extraction of fuel from Unit 4 (video taken underwater), Nov. 20, 2013:

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/library/movie-01e.html?bcpid=59368209002&bclid=347242463002&bctid=663150805002

[SjaakNL2013]

After reading about the extent of the cover-up and just how dangerous the rod removal procedure is the question I keep asking myself now is how will the world know if there is some kind of accident over the next 12 months that involves criticality?

The physical damage to the reactors was impossible for them to hide from the world but radioactive gases are invisible - so how would anyone know if something goes wrong as they try to remove these rods but keep it covered up from the world even temporarily?

And don't forget they are relying on no earthquakes whatsoever (not even minor tremors) for a period of 12 months when there is constant seismic activity occurring

The US will have real-time monitoring of alpha and beta particles, gamma sources and the signature isotopes of Fukushima contamination. It's is likely the US Navy has been doing this from Day Two. But only my opinion, needs confirmation.

The government may have those data, some experts will have some data but the public will see phony data so they get not disturbed while they watch a game of baseball.

Until now the public is never correct informed. But over 40 years you will know what happen today.

[boomerangutang]

5,000 years of practice, and neither the Japanese nor the Chinese nor anyone else can predict when an earthquake will strike. Probably the best predictor is odd behavior by an animal, just seconds before the quake is felt by humans.

As for tsunamis, there's a story that some elephants, which were tethered near the coast just prior to the big Andaman tsunami, headed for higher ground, minutes before the surging waves hit the shore. Elephants can hear low vibrations. Perhaps Fukushima could rent a group of elephants and tether them near Fukushima, and have mahouts with walkie talkies on 24 hour duty.

I can picture the drama unfolding. Mahout Chalokrom from Udan Thani reports over the walkie talkie;

"Elfan moving to big tree now. Not shuwa. Maybe he wan eat rice. Maybe big wave too much, maybe no. I am interesting too much. Me wan Red bull now. U bring me? See you."

[Scott]

I don't know of any animals that are able to predict radiation. There maybe some, but I don't know of them. We do have the technology to show radiation levels, however.