Calf Weaning

[andycrosby]

A mate of ours has a small milking herd of Holstein Cattle and said we could take the males for free. If it was the UK I would not even post this but do any of you know if there is milk replacer here and also starter to get the rumen working

If the answer is no on both of them then he can keep them. Any help please

[slapout]

The best, most cost effective way to come out on this is to have a couple nurse cows, you can put 2 calves/cow up to weaning size (250 lbs+). It may take some work to get the nurse cow to accept the calves, but she will come around and you can run 4 calves per year cycle on the nurse cow.

I have seen the powder you are asking about but it was suspect from the label and seemed to be used as a pig supplement. Good luck

[andycrosby]

I thought about getting two cows, I think we could also feed them goats milk, but 250 Lbs was the old days , you can wean a calf in four weeks if you know what your doing , but thanks for the info

[slapout]

The old days are still here in beef cattle weaning/feeding with cattlemen. I was giving a suggestion for raising new borns off the mother cow. Those who want to attempt weaning (non milk/subistute diet) at 4 weeks of age are probably in the minority. Thats why many milk producers sell/give away the newborn calves. Its labor/time intensive and the rate of growth is somewhat slower than those on the teat and weaned at proper weight. 250 lbs is on the low end for weaning in a real mother cow operation. On a further note, I would not spend time and feed cost to feed out a week old holstein for butcher for home consumption.

bum lambs would be a better time/end product investment and you 4 week time to weaning may work.

[andycrosby]

The Labour is not a problem, they all want to do it, we will see how long it lasts, if I was doing it would not happen LOL,

The Lamb in Thailand , I can not even find a lamb and there so expencive here its unreal.

But I had had a think and took on board what you said we have just put an order in for two female weaned Holstiens to use as foster moms, and I have a few straws of Fleckvieh semen left over that I can use on them when there a wee bit older.

I did also find powdered milk and starter 5 klicks from my house. So it looks like back into cattle.. By the way this is just for home consuption

Just encase anyone wants to know the price was 7,000 baht each for the two girls at 3 months old, that was spose to be mates rates... I dont know but it seems about fair for Thailand.

[WatersEdge]

Hi andycrosby

Newborns must have Colostrum,

the thick orange colored milk which the cow gives the first four days after birth.

Without those antibodies in the infant calf's system,

it is wide open to every disease to pass by.

Colostrum shares all the antibodies that the mother possesses straight to her offspring.

There is milk replacer available, as slapout says, but it is expensive.

It may be helpful to note that bagged feed for small pigs has whey powder included,

so milk protein necessary for a small animal is probably cheaper in that form.

Raising dairy bull calves has always been a struggle,

because the dairy doesn't need males,

and yet the baby bulls need their mama.

Once on solid feed, a Holstein bull is a vigorous beast,

although when they reach maturity they are aggressive and at times sneaky.

Never Never Never turn your back on a Holstein bull.

They are lean flesh,

and peak out for slaughter at 18 months

We didn't cut them

as bulls grow better than steers

but we also had the heavy pipe and sucker rod corrals to withstand their abuse.

Heavy cable on pipe posts works even better for bull corrals,

because they can try to abuse it, but it flexes while still strong.

[andycrosby]

Sorry lads I am not new to cattle, I worked for world wide sires for many years, I will get these bulls at one week old, they are off a mate, they will be de horned and denutted and in my freezer at 15 and 18 months old, I will do 1 or 2 at a time because thats all I can cope with and I do not want a load of bulls in a feedlot, I am mad just not stupid.

But if you think a black and whites a bit of a handfull try a little brown bull that comes from the chanel Isles

Is anyone doing any cattle on here ?

Did I pay a fair price for the Two girls ?

The black and white bulls have to be better bet than some of this local rubbish ?

I am also looking forward to doing some F1 Fleckvieh - Holstein cross and I would be very tempted to keep any girls that pop out to do F2 ...75% Fleckvieh cross , for those interested F3 is 87.5% anything after that is classed as PB ..pure bred

As we go I will do a true acount of costs and see what we end up with for the time and out lay

Thank you both for your input most helpfull

[andycrosby]

As I promised I picked up our bull calf today he is 7 days old, the largest Holstein bull calf I have ever seen. I paid 700 baht for him and I will update you on costs and time as we go

He is drinking half a pale twice a day , I would think that would be costing me 20 baht a day the girl we brought is 3 months old now and fully weaned. She is out on grass with the mix she is on she will be costing me the same about 20 baht a day

To tell you the truth I did not know how much, I missed cattle its been a long time but i am so happy with this cheap start back I am looking for one more female now and another bull calf in two or three months time depending how we get on with this one.

[grimleybob]

As I promised I picked up our bull calf today he is 7 days old, the largest Holstein bull calf I have ever seen. I paid 700 baht for him and I will update you on costs and time as we go

He is drinking half a pale twice a day , I would think that would be costing me 20 baht a day the girl we brought is 3 months old now and fully weaned. She is out on grass with the mix she is on she will be costing me the same about 20 baht a day

To tell you the truth I did not know how much, I missed cattle its been a long time but i am so happy with this cheap start back I am looking for one more female now and another bull calf in two or three months time depending how we get on with this one.

Andy do you know the location of the Government cattle research place that breeds the Brahman /Simmental crosses.

I want to pay a visit next time I'm over.

Do you know if they still sell the Heifers for breeding?

The surplus bull calves would be better for fattening than the Holstiens if they can be bought at a reasonable price.

Bob

[grimleybob]

Sorry lads I am not new to cattle, I worked for world wide sires for many years, I will get these bulls at one week old, they are off a mate, they will be de horned and denutted and in my freezer at 15 and 18 months old, I will do 1 or 2 at a time because thats all I can cope with and I do not want a load of bulls in a feedlot, I am mad just not stupid.

But if you think a black and whites a bit of a handfull try a little brown bull that comes from the chanel Isles

Is anyone doing any cattle on here ?

Did I pay a fair price for the Two girls ?

The black and white bulls have to be better bet than some of this local rubbish ?

I am also looking forward to doing some F1 Fleckvieh - Holstein cross and I would be very tempted to keep any girls that pop out to do F2 ...75% Fleckvieh cross , for those interested F3 is 87.5% anything after that is classed as PB ..pure bred

As we go I will do a true acount of costs and see what we end up with for the time and out lay

Thank you both for your input most helpfull

I think you would be better off doing a F2 cross with an Angus or possibly an Hereford. This would result, I believe, in more "hybrid vigour" leaving you with a faster growing, disease resistant animal made up of 3 bloodlines. Should also be superb eating.

Give it a go.

BTW

Have you any contacts in Thailand that can perform Embryo Transfer. I may need someone in a few months time

Edited March 23, 2012 by grimleybob

[andycrosby]

Hi bob I think your spot on I love herefords, placid bulls the best f1 you can get in my mind ... I will do the cross with the girls latter if I can find hereford straws but as I am just starting up again I have no bulls to grow so this is all I can get or go to the local cattle market and get ripped off.

If you want anything from the govenment you have to be a registerd farm and its the odd bits one a year and the waiting list is very long

I am at work today and Ill ask if anyone can jump the line for a small drink. If we/ you could buy the odd bull calf cheap it would be a great bonus

the other way is to find a dairy farm that does not need any cows, male or female and do a deal with them this would be great and get you a lot of f1 stock very fast

[grimleybob]

Hi bob I think your spot on I love herefords, placid bulls the best f1 you can get in my mind ... I will do the cross with the girls latter if I can find hereford straws but as I am just starting up again I have no bulls to grow so this is all I can get or go to the local cattle market and get ripped off.

If you want anything from the govenment you have to be a registerd farm and its the odd bits one a year and the waiting list is very long

I am at work today and Ill ask if anyone can jump the line for a small drink. If we/ you could buy the odd bull calf cheap it would be a great bonus

the other way is to find a dairy farm that does not need any cows, male or female and do a deal with them this would be great and get you a lot of f1 stock very fast

The other (more expensive) route would be to buy local, healthy local proven mother cows as donors for embryo's. Although more expensive to start it would give you the stock you want in 1 year. If you buy embryo's from 3 different blood lines you can start breeding your own stock after a further 15- 18 months

"MARC research work has shown that populations of composite cows provide an efficient alternative to more complex systems of cross breeding while retaining high levels of the hybrid vigour. Their results have shown that composite breeding offers a procedure that is more effective than other cross-breeding systems for utilising genetic differences between breeds to achieve and maintain optimum performance levels for economic traits on a continuing basis. Composite populations exhibit high levels of reproductive performance and consistency of breed type of both the breeding and slaughter generations. Composite breeding technology is now well established commercially in all the large-scale, major beef producing countries of the world, irrespective of variations in climate, environmental conditions and genotypes. As a result breeding herds are becoming more efficient, producing consistent, high quality beef. UK producers need to recognise the challenge this presents and to develop breeding strategies that will improve the economic efficiency of suckler cows and the production of consistent high eating quality beef from forage based systems.

Strengths of Composite Breeding

*Retains high levels of hybrid vigour to maximise fertility and calf vigour

*Creates uniform animal populations with predictable performance

*Utilises the strengths of the contributing breeds

*Reproduces as a pure breed"

This is a quote from the webpage of a cattle breeder near to where I live in the UK

Their cattle are a composite of 2 uk breeds and 2 continental breeds.

If you want more info send me a PM

Bob

[andycrosby]

Got the link Bob Thanks big buggers, how much for the straws if we brought a few ? can he loose the vat if there coming to thailand, ? can you also find out what size straws he does as I only have my large gun here ? shame to have semen and no way to use it,

[aussieruss]

hi Andy could you advise me if I can bring any type of straws from Australia have thort about many times regards Russell ps i don't no 1thing about straws ect

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[aussieruss]

hi Andy sorry i should ask can I bring the canister on the plane regards Russell

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[andycrosby]

Yes in your suit case some air lines are very good and will let them in side check with your air-line and make sure the flask is up to the job, there is a reason the chinese ones are cheep and thats because there <deleted>.

Out of interest what breed would you bring here ? and why ?

[andycrosby]

Id like to bring some highland cattle straws here for a bit of fun and take one to a cattle market here be so funny to watch there faces. LOL

[aussieruss]

I have 150 rai near korat I had30head 20-50% Thai cattle x bram didn't make much money over 2years waste of time I like cattle among other things when I retire would like something a bit different and maybe worth something for a bit of effort regards Russell

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[andycrosby]

where did you think you failed Russ what did you do wrong ?

150 rai is a lot of grass for 30 head over 4 rai a head should be plenty of food

I would love to know more ?

I am feeding a cow on one rai and plenty for now what should I do as she gets bigger

any help please

[canuckamuck]

I used to skip school sometimes and go to the hog and dairy auctions to pick up baby holstein bulls for a little extra spending cash. My dad hated them, called them dam_n magpies. Anyhow, you can wean them pretty young, but what I used to do was to get them used to taking the milk powder in dry form mixed with mixed grain, I did that as soon as I could, that eliminated the time spent in bucket feeding. I made sure they had plenty of water and grass, and they did fine.

[grimleybob]

Got the link Bob Thanks big buggers, how much for the straws if we brought a few ? can he loose the vat if there coming to thailand, ? can you also find out what size straws he does as I only have my large gun here ? shame to have semen and no way to use it,

They are £10 or £12 depending on the bull you choose. The parent company exports pig semen all over the world but I haven't asked for a quote yet untill I am ready to do business. UK cattle semen has only just become available to the rest of the world because of the last F&M outbreak. Thailand now allow imports from UK.

[grimleybob]

where did you think you failed Russ what did you do wrong ?

150 rai is a lot of grass for 30 head over 4 rai a head should be plenty of food

I would love to know more ?

I am feeding a cow on one rai and plenty for now what should I do as she gets bigger

any help please

It's all about genetics. You can't raise dairy cattle for beef and make money and you can't get enough milk from beef cattle to make money.

It's all in the breeding. You could cross a dairy cow with a beef bull but that doesn't guarantee a a beef calf. It could have genes from either breed.

All breeds have different traits, for instance speed of growth, FCR,ease of calving & maternal instincts and of course carcase quality.

Some breeds of cattle reach sexual maturity at 14 months other 24 months. Some will fatten and finish purely on forage others need additional protein. You can slaughter some breeds at 17 months (340 kilo) others like highland will take more than 3 years.

All these factors will affect the profitability of growing cattle.

The skill is in the breeding. Cross the breeds to bring in the traits that will enhance the genetic makeup of your herd. Five years should do it. Good luck.

[andycrosby]

genetics, where we have all been going wrong i think if we are talking about a suckler heard then a dairy cow cross with a hereford is the standard everywhere in the world apart from thailand because they know that long ears in cattle weigh more than farang cows therefore must be better.

also the Thai cattle are far taller than farang cows so you do not need to muck them out as often. Because thai cows a slimmer you can fit more on a tuck tuck when taking them to market and there also more aerodynamic also saving on fuel

Remember there is some logic behind everything thai Farmers do

back to bob im now sure ill be going down the hereford road F1 for at least a start then i think ill be outcrossing to an Angus or another hereford as a termanal sire for both males and females.. here is to good british beef feel free to like this post

[aussieruss]

hi Andy at the time the cattle were 50km from the main farm with my brother inlaw I was in australia the deal was no money 1st calf me 2nd him so on the cattle were poor to start with there were many things over the time but the main thing I learned was you can't run things over the phone you must be here lesson learned my outlaws are good people but there not me regards Russell

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[andycrosby]

hi russ when i first came here many moons ago I had the same deal with my ex wifes dad, I brought 30 cows and never saw a penny back, so one morning after 2 years i pulled up in a lorry loaded them all up and sold them to a guy in BKK . A month latter we split up over it and she showed her true bar-girl colours ive never looked back. Some people never understand when you give them a good deal 15 calves a year should be plenty for any thai man to live on.

[andycrosby]

i asked at 4 offices today no one has Hereford semen does anyone else have it in Thailand ?

Black Angus is not a problem

[aussieruss]

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[aussieruss]

hi Andy have you decided to go to wf meeting yet I will be there and would like to talk about straws and so regards Russell

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[aussieruss]

I wouldnt have thought that one country in the world Thailand would be short of seamen

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[slapout]

i asked at 4 offices today no one has Hereford semen does anyone else have it in Thailand ?

Black Angus is not a problem

Several years back, I saw a herford and also a lemo bull at the Fang ag station. Either one crossed with the brangus will give good beef cattle. A angus bull on first calf hiefers works good for early breeding as they seem to thow a smaller calf. A herd of black baldies are hard to beat for beef production.