Demented Englishman Update

[Mobi]

As the DF is no longer a UK resident he probably doesn't qualify for any services in the UK at all.

Ummm... what??

I know the UK government prefer people to be good little citizens, handing over all their money and being grateful they're allowed to keep enough for a couple of weeks in Spain every year, but last time I checked UK citizens (regardless of where they live) were still entitled to a modicum of healthcare - provided they could get their ass back to the UK of course...

If you have been outside the Uk for more the 3 months the UK citezens act you are no longer ordinary UK citezen and entitled to nothing health care wise. Despite any previous payments the letter adds

Wrong!!!

There appears to be much confusion over this subject. I suggest you click on the attached link which provides chapter and verse on precisely what non-resident Brits are entitled to if they go to the UK and need medical treatment.

NHS charges for people from abroad

I have also copied some relevant extracts, which I set out below, but there is much more on the link.

Treatment which is always free of charge

Some hospital treatment is free of charge for everyone who needs it, regardless of how long they have been or intend to stay in the UK. This is:-

treatment for accidents and emergencies as an outpatient in a hospital’s accident and emergency department. Emergency treatment in a walk-in centre is also free of charge (England and Wales only). However, if you are referred to an outpatient clinic or admitted to hospital from an accident and emergency department, you will be charged

compulsory psychiatric treatment

In England and Scotland, compulsory treatment under a court order

treatment for certain communicable diseases, such as tuberculosis, cholera, food poisoning, malaria, meningitis and pandemic influenza. Testing for the HIV virus and counselling following a test are both free of charge, but any necessary subsequent treatment and medicines may have to be paid for

family planning services.

Who can receive all NHS hospital treatment free of charge

You can get free NHS hospital treatment if you are lawfully entitled to be in the UK and usually live here. This is called being ordinarily resident.

Some people from abroad who are not ordinarily resident in the UK can receive all NHS hospital treatment free of charge. If you are entitled to free NHS hospital treatment, family members including your spouse, civil partner and dependent children will also be able to get free treatment, but only if they are lawfully allowed to live in the UK. In many cases, they must also be living with you throughout your stay to qualify.

You can receive free NHS hospital treatment if you:-

have been living legally in the UK for at least 12 months when you start treatment, and did not come to the UK for private medical treatment. Temporary absences from the UK of up to three months (in England, up to 182 days) are ignored

have come to the UK to take up permanent residence, for example, if you are a former UK resident who has returned from abroad, or if you have been granted leave to enter or remain as a spouse

have come to the UK to work, either as an employee or self-employed person. In England and Wales, if you are employed, your employer's main place of business must be in the UK or be registered in the UK. This could be, for example, a branch of an overseas company. If you are self-employed your main place of business must be in the UK

normally work in the UK, but are temporarily working abroad for less than five years. You also need to have lived in the UK continuously for at least ten years before going overseas.

In Scotland, you normally work in the UK but are temporarily working abroad. You must have lived in the UK continuously for at least ten years and taken home leave in the UK at least once every two years. However, if you are studying abroad you may not be entitled to free NHS treatment

are receiving a UK war pension

have been granted, or made an application for temporary protection, asylum or humanitarian protection

in Wales, have applied for asylum

in England, are an failed asylum seeker in certain circumstances, or in Scotland and Wales, are a failed asylum seeker

in England, are a child the local authority has taken into care

have been identified as having been trafficked from abroad or are believed to have been trafficked from abroad

are imprisoned in the UK or detained by UK immigration authorities

get a UK state retirement pension and live in the UK for at least 182 days a year (in Scotland and Wales, six months a year) and live in another European Economic Area (EEA) member state or Switzerland for the other part of the year. If you have registered as a resident of another EEA state or Switzerland, you may be entitled to free NHS hospital treatment if you fall ill during a trip back to the UK

are from a European Economic Area (EEA) country or Switzerland and have a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC). The EHIC does not cover coming to the UK just to get medical treatment but it allows you to get free care if you're referred to the UK for pre-planned treatment with an E112 or S2 certificate

are a student following a course of study which lasts at least six months, or a course that is substantially funded by the UK, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Ireland Governments.

Visitors who can sometimes receive NHS hospital treatment free of charge

You are entitled to free NHS hospital treatment if you are one of the following people and fall ill during your visit. You are not entitled to routine treatment for a pre-existing condition.

You are entitled to receive free NHS care if you:

come from a country outside of European Economic Area and your country has signed a health care agreement with the UK. What you are entitled to depends on the agreement

get a UK state retirement pension or another state benefit and normally live in a non-EEA country. You must have lived lawfully in the UK for at least ten years continuously in the past, or worked for the UK government for at least ten years continuously. Your spouse, civil partner and dependent children are also entitled to free NHS hospital treatment if they fall ill. They must be living with you throughout your stay in the UK

have lived lawfully in the UK for at least ten years continuously in the past and are now living in an EEA member state, or Switzerland, or in a country with which the UK has a healthcare agreement. Your spouse, civil partner and dependent children are also entitled to free NHS hospital treatment if they fall ill. They must be living with you throughout your stay in the UK

in England, you have been granted leave to enter the UK for medical treatment. If you want free care, you must apply to the Secretary of State before you try to get treatment. Permission will only be given if there are exceptional humanitarian reasons to justify this. If you have been granted leave to enter the UK to accompany someone who is entitled to treatment for exceptional humanitarian reasons, you are also entitled to free NHS hospital treatment if you fall ill during your visit

Refusal of treatment

If you are not entitled to receive free NHS hospital treatment you will not be refused medical treatment that stabilises a life-threatening condition, for example, for renal failure. Treatment will be given to deal with the emergency, but you will be expected to return home for it to be completed, once the emergency is over.

In posting the above extracts, I have no intention of starting a new debate on whether the rules are fair or unfair as this isn't the purpose of this thread, and the subject has been done to death elsewhere.

But as far as the 'demented Gent' is concerned, it is very clear to me that once he has been repatriated, he would be taken care of free of charge by the State, as he probably qualifies on several grounds, not least of which would be the emergency nature of the situation.

I believe he is in receipt of a State pension,which would qualify him, and also, as a UK citizen I would think that once back in the UK he would be considered 'de facto' back there to live permanently and on these grounds alone he would be entitled to free healthcare.

[Soutpeel]

it goes without saying that if this was happening in the UK, people would be calling for the police.

but as far as I am aware the boys in blue in the UK wouldnt chain someone up in a police cell if they are deemed mentally ill, they would actually take someone to a suitable hosptial....unlike their breathen in Thailand.

[necronx99]

it goes without saying that if this was happening in the UK, people would be calling for the police.

but as far as I am aware the boys in blue in the UK wouldnt chain someone up in a police cell if they are deemed mentally ill, they would actually take someone to a suitable hosptial....unlike their breathen in Thailand.

Assuming he somehow managed to get a ticket and agree to return to the UK, can a dementia sufferer manage a 20 odd hour flight without medical assistance without getting himself cuffed on the plane? Would he even make it to the plane?

[Mobi]

it goes without saying that if this was happening in the UK, people would be calling for the police.

but as far as I am aware the boys in blue in the UK wouldnt chain someone up in a police cell if they are deemed mentally ill, they would actually take someone to a suitable hosptial....unlike their breathen in Thailand.

Assuming he somehow managed to get a ticket and agree to return to the UK, can a dementia sufferer manage a 20 odd hour flight without medical assistance without getting himself cuffed on the plane? Would he even make it to the plane?

Good question. I imagine he would need to be heavily sedated and escorted. Quite a problem for someone to solve....

[bendix]

it goes without saying that if this was happening in the UK, people would be calling for the police.

but as far as I am aware the boys in blue in the UK wouldnt chain someone up in a police cell if they are deemed mentally ill, they would actually take someone to a suitable hosptial....unlike their breathen in Thailand.

Again . . that's tough. I presume the gentleman in question knew the retpuation of the Thai police when - compos mentis - he decided to take advantage of the low costs of living in Thailand to enjoy his retirement. He would have known this is no place to become either chronically ill, insane or disabled unless you have a lot of cash behind you. A more prudent approach would have been to make contingencies for becoming ill and infirm when he still had money - it's what the responsible among us do.

He didn't, and now it is beholden upon Thailand to take care of him, or the UK taxpayer to get him home.

Meanwhile, his wife is being assaulted and is probably in danger of something more extreme.

Instead, he

[Mobi]

Yes I agree.

It is a timely reminder to all us 'old-uns' to make sure our affairs are in order and to take appropriate steps at the first signs of mental frailty before it gets too bad.

To do otherwise when you still have sufficient faculties to comprehend what is happening to you is an extremely selfish, uncaring act.

So many selfish people don't even make the effort to do a proper will which then leaves an unholy mess for their friends and family to sort out - especially if they die intestate in Thailand.

[bendix]

Excellent post Mobi and sensible advice.

What frustrates me is that so many people want Thailand to be the same as the UK / US / Australia etc, only much much cheaper.

There is a trade off. There is a reason things are cheap here; it is because it is a relatively poor country. There is a reason it's easy to find a gf or wife, even if you're fat old and ugly. It is because girls are forced to look for support in a society where there isnt the welfare net we enjoy in the west.

But there is a flipside. The police are crap and corrupt because they get paid next to nothing officially. There is no welfare system or social workers to take care of you when you're mentally ill because there is so much poverty that tax takes are small.

Again, it's a trade off. You can't have the low cost of life / easy girl thing AND have the social comforts of back home.

If people don't get that, I have no sympathy for them.

This is Thailand. Issues like this get solved in the Thai context, NOT with the fluffy 'there there you'll be ok approach' we deal with things back home (and pay for them with our taxes).

Edited February 20, 2012 by bendix

[necronx99]

Excellent post Mobi and sensible advice.

What frustrates me is that so many people want Thailand to be the same as the UK / US / Australia etc, only much much cheaper.

There is a trade off. There is a reason things are cheap here; it is because it is a relatively poor country. There is a reason it's easy to find a gf or wife, even if you're fat old and ugly. It is because girls are forced to look for support in a society where there isnt the welfare net we enjoy in the west.

But there is a flipside. The police are crap and corrupt because they get paid next to nothing officially. There is no welfare system or social workers to take care of you when you're mentally ill because there is so much poverty that tax takes are small.

Again, it's a trade off. You can't have the low cost of life / easy girl thing AND have the social comforts of back home.

If people don't get that, I have no sympathy for them.

This is Thailand. Issues like this get solved in the Thai context, NOT with the fluffy 'there there you'll be ok approach' we deal with things back home (and pay for them with our taxes).

This is all true and a constant source of amazement in the Thai bagging threads.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that with progressive mental diseases like dementia and Alzheimers that the sufferer is largely unaware of the onset and progression?

How do you plan for that if you have no strong family support?

Having said that I think the focus of this thread should be helping the wife who seems to be going above and beyond with little hope of an upside.

[bendix]

Excellent post Mobi and sensible advice.

What frustrates me is that so many people want Thailand to be the same as the UK / US / Australia etc, only much much cheaper.

There is a trade off. There is a reason things are cheap here; it is because it is a relatively poor country. There is a reason it's easy to find a gf or wife, even if you're fat old and ugly. It is because girls are forced to look for support in a society where there isnt the welfare net we enjoy in the west.

But there is a flipside. The police are crap and corrupt because they get paid next to nothing officially. There is no welfare system or social workers to take care of you when you're mentally ill because there is so much poverty that tax takes are small.

Again, it's a trade off. You can't have the low cost of life / easy girl thing AND have the social comforts of back home.

If people don't get that, I have no sympathy for them.

This is Thailand. Issues like this get solved in the Thai context, NOT with the fluffy 'there there you'll be ok approach' we deal with things back home (and pay for them with our taxes).

This is all true and a constant source of amazement in the Thai bagging threads.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that with progressive mental diseases like dementia and Alzheimers that the sufferer is largely unaware of the onset and progression?

How do you plan for that if you have no strong family support?

Having said that I think the focus of this thread should be helping the wife who seems to be going above and beyond with little hope of an upside.

You can't plan for getting sick, but you can plan to deal with the consequences of getting sick.

The OP has already said that the guy in question has no money to use to get home. How can that possibly be? How can it be that a grown westerner - one who had the good luck to be born in a society with a cradle to grave welfare state and numerous advantages that the locals can barely dream of - how can it be that someone has no money?

If you can't afford to be in Thailand - and by afford I mean be able to finance all the likely consequences of getting old and ill, not simply afford to pay a few bar fines - then you have no moral right to be here, imposing on the charity of others.

[necronx99]

Excellent post Mobi and sensible advice.

What frustrates me is that so many people want Thailand to be the same as the UK / US / Australia etc, only much much cheaper.

There is a trade off. There is a reason things are cheap here; it is because it is a relatively poor country. There is a reason it's easy to find a gf or wife, even if you're fat old and ugly. It is because girls are forced to look for support in a society where there isnt the welfare net we enjoy in the west.

But there is a flipside. The police are crap and corrupt because they get paid next to nothing officially. There is no welfare system or social workers to take care of you when you're mentally ill because there is so much poverty that tax takes are small.

Again, it's a trade off. You can't have the low cost of life / easy girl thing AND have the social comforts of back home.

If people don't get that, I have no sympathy for them.

This is Thailand. Issues like this get solved in the Thai context, NOT with the fluffy 'there there you'll be ok approach' we deal with things back home (and pay for them with our taxes).

This is all true and a constant source of amazement in the Thai bagging threads.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that with progressive mental diseases like dementia and Alzheimers that the sufferer is largely unaware of the onset and progression?

How do you plan for that if you have no strong family support?

Having said that I think the focus of this thread should be helping the wife who seems to be going above and beyond with little hope of an upside.

You can't plan for getting sick, but you can plan to deal with the consequences of getting sick.

The OP has already said that the guy in question has no money to use to get home. How can that possibly be? How can it be that a grown westerner - one who had the good luck to be born in a society with a cradle to grave welfare state and numerous advantages that the locals can barely dream of - how can it be that someone has no money?

If you can't afford to be in Thailand - and by afford I mean be able to finance all the likely consequences of getting old and ill, not simply afford to pay a few bar fines - then you have no moral right to be here, imposing on the charity of others.

Very lucid and logical comments, but if his condition is advanced enough he might be sitting on millions and just not telling, or not knowing.

Mental diseases remove your ability to make value decisions, he may well have had plans, but lacks the capacity to execute them.

He is probably not the right focus of any aid at this point, but it's a bit harsh to be judgmental. There but for luck can do many people who are outside a strong family network and also some who assumed they had such.

Edited February 20, 2012 by necronx99

[chrisinth]

it goes without saying that if this was happening in the UK, people would be calling for the police.

but as far as I am aware the boys in blue in the UK wouldnt chain someone up in a police cell if they are deemed mentally ill, they would actually take someone to a suitable hosptial....unlike their breathen in Thailand.

Assuming he somehow managed to get a ticket and agree to return to the UK, can a dementia sufferer manage a 20 odd hour flight without medical assistance without getting himself cuffed on the plane? Would he even make it to the plane?

I think it would be treated as a casavac (casualty evacuation) case which would mean being accompanied by 2 qualified medical personnel. At least that is what it use to be a few years ago.

[FBN]

Please keep in mind that this individual will probably not be able to fly alone on a commercial flight; as far as I know, the UK Embassy does not provide this service either.

We are, unfortunately (and worst case scenario) looking at a possibility of a worse assault with inevitable police involvement; consequence of this may be involuntary admission to a Thai state mental hospital...

Perhaps the UK Embassy may be able and willing to interact with the family in the UK? Doubt if the Consulate will be able to help much here..

[Mobi]

Excellent post Mobi and sensible advice.

What frustrates me is that so many people want Thailand to be the same as the UK / US / Australia etc, only much much cheaper.

There is a trade off. There is a reason things are cheap here; it is because it is a relatively poor country. There is a reason it's easy to find a gf or wife, even if you're fat old and ugly. It is because girls are forced to look for support in a society where there isnt the welfare net we enjoy in the west.

But there is a flipside. The police are crap and corrupt because they get paid next to nothing officially. There is no welfare system or social workers to take care of you when you're mentally ill because there is so much poverty that tax takes are small.

Again, it's a trade off. You can't have the low cost of life / easy girl thing AND have the social comforts of back home.

If people don't get that, I have no sympathy for them.

This is Thailand. Issues like this get solved in the Thai context, NOT with the fluffy 'there there you'll be ok approach' we deal with things back home (and pay for them with our taxes).

This is all true and a constant source of amazement in the Thai bagging threads.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that with progressive mental diseases like dementia and Alzheimers that the sufferer is largely unaware of the onset and progression?

How do you plan for that if you have no strong family support?

Having said that I think the focus of this thread should be helping the wife who seems to be going above and beyond with little hope of an upside.

You can't plan for getting sick, but you can plan to deal with the consequences of getting sick.

The OP has already said that the guy in question has no money to use to get home. How can that possibly be? How can it be that a grown westerner - one who had the good luck to be born in a society with a cradle to grave welfare state and numerous advantages that the locals can barely dream of - how can it be that someone has no money?

If you can't afford to be in Thailand - and by afford I mean be able to finance all the likely consequences of getting old and ill, not simply afford to pay a few bar fines - then you have no moral right to be here, imposing on the charity of others.

Very lucid and logical comments, but if his condition is advanced enough he might be sitting on millions and just not telling, or not knowing.

Mental diseases remove your ability to make value decisions, he may well have had plans, but lacks the capacity to execute them.

He is probably not the right focus of any aid at this point, but it's a bit harsh to be judgemental. There but for luck can do many people who are outside a strong family network and also some who assumed they had such.

From what I understand, he is neither sitting on millions nor has he made adequate plans - but I do agree that without knowing all the facts we shouldn't be too judgemental.

I fail to understand why someone seems to think that the embassy might help but it is doubtful if the consulate will be able to help.

Again, my understanding is that the Embassy in BKK referred this matter to the Pattaya consulate, and in any case, it is the consulate that deals with these kind of matters, not the embassy - that is one of the main reasons they are there - to provide emergency assistance to British citizens - read the pinned thread in the Pattaya forum for precise details which certainly covers the DE

On the matter of 'planning for illness', I wonder just how many Brits over the age of 65 - here, or in the UK are not suffering from some ailment or another? I bet you it is a very low percentage.

We may all be living longer, but once we reach our 60's the odds are that we will have health issues of one kind or another, and I agree with Bendix that anyone who come to, or is living in Thailand at 60 years of age , or older, should have made adequate arrangements to cover the eventuality of expensive medical treatment and possible repatriation.

[Sheryl]

This thread seems to pick up where another had left off, and has only just come into the health forum, so I am a bit in the dark.

First obvious question is the cause of the dementia. Did it come on suddenly or has it been a gradual onset over a period of years?

unless it has come on very gradually over a period of years, it may well be due to an acute and treatable condition. He needs a thorough medical evaluation.

That will of course cost money, as will his repatriation to the UK which baring an ability of a Thai hospital to identify and treat an underlying cause, will be necessary.

the only hope here is to locate family in the UK who can help. He will qualify for NHS care given the urgency of his case, problem is getting him back home in the first place, which will require that someone come out and get him and pay for the associated airfares.

What the Embassy or Consulate can and should be doing is tracking down family in the UK.

[lopburi3]

Be aware when talking Embassy/Consulate it is the Consulate/Consular officer that handle citizen matters whether located in the Embassy itself or a separate establishment.

[CMSteve]

As the OP seems to be away at the moment ( Hopefully things are moving along!) a couple of answer to questions asked in this thread.

'steve187' "do we know if the man is in receipt of a uk pension, it may be in the thread but having read through i don't think i read it. "

The man is in receipt of some type of pension/stipend in the amount of 20k baht/month. Not sure of source, but handled by his daughter. I Imagine there is some paper trail to track her down.

'cheryl' "First obvious question is the cause of the dementia. Did it come on suddenly or has it been a gradual onset over a period of years?"

from the OP

"He has been telling people for the last year or two he was a famous professional sportsman, but as far as I understand, his family have refuted that as nonsense."

Thinking of the wife - It was Feb 6, that the OP first made us aware of the abuse situation that the wife was in. It was Feb 17th, the OP updated the forum that she has again been assaulted and may have a broken finger. The OP chose to wait till Monday the 20th(office hours) to see the consulate on the man's behalf. No update yet for today, but I am sure we are hoping for the best. At some point, we must all realize that the longer the man is handled with "kiddie gloves" the longer the woman is subjected to an abusive situation.

[frankpelagic]

Sheryl, I am the OP. I am a Remote Area Nurse Practitioner, and whilst that is not the same as a doctor, it is reasonably high up the tree of general health knowledge. This mans condition has come on over the last four or five years, according to his wife. My opinion is that he is suffering from a cognitive degenerative condition, possibly Alzheimers or a similar dementia. I have never seen anyone improve from the condition this man is currently in, although there are some medications that can slow the progression. He has no money, his wife is borrowing, so that seems unlikely to occur.

CM Steve, I am merely a concerned onlooker, and have to respect the wishes of this mans wife. Now that the consul have failed to contact her, she is saying that she wants no further action to be taken, she does not want me to contact the embassy or consul again, she does not want me to try and contact his family, and, I suspect, that she will pass him on to a third party such as a hospital, the embassy or perhaps another entity we have not previously considered. It is my belief that this will happen in the next couple of weeks. For the time being, he is well cared for, fed, clean, and safe. If, for instance, the wife disappears, then I will do what I can to ensure he is taken to a place of safety. That's all I can do, and frankly, thats all I am prepared to do. Poking your nose too deeply into matters like this has a habit of turning round and biting you on the backside. By the way, you say I chose to wait until Monday to contact the consulate. Please bear in mind, this man is not in any shape or form my responsibility. He has a wife, for better or for worse, and I am simply trying to help her, as her English and computer skill are non existent. I have done all I can, please don't start criticising me !!

Edited February 21, 2012 by frankpelagic

[frankpelagic]

I guess the other thing to keep in perspective, is that domestic violence, awful and disgusting as it is, is not exactly new or unheard of, especially in Thailand. I have seen hundreds of cases of DV in my practice in Australia, and I would think that less than 10% want to involve the police, and of those 10%, probably only 5% go all the way to the court room. Fortunately this man is sufficiently frail not to be capable of inflicting more serious injury. Fingers crossed.

[CMSteve]

Hoping for the best, for both of them.

Edited February 21, 2012 by CMSteve

[Mobi]

Me too. You have made everything perfectly clear and are to be commended for all that you have done.

I guess you have to just let events take their course for a while.

[chrisinth]

I am with CMSteve and Mobi in their comments and wish (and hope) that something good comes out of this mess. As for you Frank, its been a pleasure following what you have been doing (not the best of circumstances granted) and wish there were more like you out there!

Walk with pride.

[frankpelagic]

Thanks everyone for those pleasant and positive comments. As Mobi says, I will just have to let events take their course for a while.

I know a lot of people are interested in this, so if anything happens, I will post it here.

Certainly a learning experience for me, especially regarding the lack of help from the embassy and consulate. I suppose we all learn new things every day here in TL.

I will keep an eye on things (perhpas from a distance).

Frank