Driving Standards

[tom yum goong]

Something i've often wondered about is how come Thais, who in general are quite laid back and unaggressive, suddenly turn into homicidal maniacs when they get behind the wheel?

Agreed about the unwillingness of Thais to follow rules though. Seems like obeying traffic lights becomes optional after about 8pm here in Phuket.

[Plus]

Driving codes were not given by God - they evolved over the years, people agreed on certain rules they consdidered reasonable for their driving environment.

It's nice to simpy transfer/translate the rules into Thai, but in reality it's the Thais themselves who have to agree on certain rules. And they do - there's a certain code of conduct on Thai roads - people who understand it find driving here a pleasure, like everywhere else.

It might be possible that with enough experience Thai code will be very close to Western code which is a lot older, but for now, overtaking on hard shoulders is not considered dangerous enough comparing to gains you can make, so it's acceptable. That's just an example. Should Thailand have enough roads to accomodate all the traffic people might not drive so close to the car in front.

Driving outside of generally accepted, even though unwritten, is actually more dangerous - like if you drive within a speed limit in the fast lane but not fast enough to keep with the traffic, you force people overtake on the left, cut into left lane, drive on hard shouldres. Leaving three car lenghts in front for safety simply invites those three cars to cut in front of you making it even more dangerous.

[Butterfly]

Another thing we forget when we bash Thais about their driving, is that this is NOT a western country, you can't expect the same standard of driving. And actually it's not so bad for a "third" world country. In the city, the driving is quite "civilized". On the road, it's a different story. Everyone is crazy. Almost Mad Max like. I think we as farangs are being too demanding here in terms of standard. Back home, we are 20 years ahead. They can't jump 20 years of driving "awareness" in a matter of years. We wouldn't be able to do it ourselves.

The US has the worst drivers in the world, even though security and safety enforcement is a priority. Everyone fall asleep while driving. It has become overkill.

[Thaiboxer]

The US has the worst drivers in the world, even though security and safety enforcement is a priority. Everyone fall asleep while driving. It has become overkill.

You must have had some experience driving in SE Florida where I'm from.

It's true that many people fall asleep at the wheel but I think if you look outside the US you'll realize that it's not the worst place to drive. As bad as many people drive there you only need to look at places like Mexico, the Middle East and some African countries. In Mexico, stop signs might as well not be there. In Nigeria, drivers' licenses are often handwritten with anybody being "qualified" to drive 18 wheelers.

As another poster mentioned, a lot of what contributes to stress on the roads here is by not adapting to the driving style. It's not as good as where most of us come from but it can be negotiated. It used to drive me crazy when I first moved here how people drive bumper to bumper and cut in front of you any chance they get but I've learned to adapt although I still try to be cautious. I now find driving here much more pleasurable than I did before.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Thaiboxer

[richb2004]

How much education do you need to understand that if you hit the road you will be damaged? I don't think the scooter drivers understand this.

I don't think that the educated Thais drive that much safer than the uneducated. The only difference is that they don't end up sat in the back of pick ups or four to a scooter.

The Thai poster commenting on his driving skill whilst drunk is a prime example.

[tom yum goong]

How much education do you need to understand that if you hit the road you will be damaged? I don't think the scooter drivers understand this.

I don't think that the educated Thais drive that much safer than the uneducated. The only difference is that they don't end up sat in the back of pick ups or four to a scooter. 

The Thai poster commenting on his driving skill whilst drunk is a prime example.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

couldn't have put it any better

[zzap]

How much education do you need to understand that if you hit the road you will be damaged? I don't think the scooter drivers understand this.

I don't think that the educated Thais drive that much safer than the uneducated. The only difference is that they don't end up sat in the back of pick ups or four to a scooter. 

The Thai poster commenting on his driving skill whilst drunk is a prime example.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Got a B.A.(hons) and I don't think this makes any difference to the way I drive.

And I'll happily sit in the back of a pick-up truck.

Maybe it's time to drop your unfounded assumptions and have a look at reality?

Take a deep breath...

[jayenram]

Driving codes were not given by God - they evolved over the years, people agreed on certain rules they consdidered reasonable for their driving environment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There IS a Thai highway code. If you have taken your driving test you will know it. Maybe.

[Plus]

Huh? There is a Thai highway code? Who would have thought! What is it? Another stone inscription from Sukhotai era? Indigenous wisdom passed by generations of Isan drivers?

It was imported just like shopping malls and cellphones, otherwise we would have separate lanes reserved for pushcart vendors of noodles, baloons and assorted broomsticks.

[nonthaburial]

To make matters worse, it has been explained to me that motor cycle riders believe that their form of transportation is not a motor vehicle and they consider themselves as "motorised pedestrians" and have no need to conform to road rules etc.

There may be some truth in this as I on a number of occasions, I have been heavily eye balled for not allowing a rider to have his right of way when he is being totally stupid i.e riding on the pavement or against the flow of traffic.

There also seems to be an attitude that they can do what hey like and what are you going to do about it ?

I had a friend who took a motorcycle taxi down a grid locked Phaya Thai road and whilst threading his way through traffic that was not moving, he managed to smash my friends knee into the rear light cluster of a Honda. This resulted in a very serious leg wound as well as smashed rear lights. The motor cycle driver insisted that the innocent car owner pay the medical bills and he did !!!!!!!!!!

Its really about time that motorcycle riders whether they are Thai, Westerners, Easteners, Northeners, Jews, Taoists etc understood that the human body was not really designed to hit a hard road,slide and get way with out damage.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

To make matters worse, it has been explained to me that motor cycle riders believe that their form of transportation is not a motor vehicle and they consider themselves as "motorised pedestrians" and have no need to conform to road rules etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with that, when I first started driving me it shocked me how kamikaze style the bikes are! The weird thing is that cars sort of move for them.

I live in Chiang Mai and another annoyance are a lot of the farang tourists who have obviously no motorbike experience.

[Butterfly]

If you want to see stupid farangs driving dangerously their stupid rented bike, Pattaya is the perfect place.

Edited December 16, 2005 by Butterfly

[richb2004]

How much education do you need to understand that if you hit the road you will be damaged? I don't think the scooter drivers understand this.

I don't think that the educated Thais drive that much safer than the uneducated. The only difference is that they don't end up sat in the back of pick ups or four to a scooter. 

The Thai poster commenting on his driving skill whilst drunk is a prime example.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Got a B.A.(hons) and I don't think this makes any difference to the way I drive.

And I'll happily sit in the back of a pick-up truck.

Maybe it's time to drop your unfounded assumptions and have a look at reality?

Take a deep breath...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My assumptions are founded on me being here in Thailand observing Thais on the road. I see poor looking Thais on traveling shops (scooters) and in the back of broken down pickups, driving like they have a death wish. I assume these folk are uneducated otherwise they would be looking better off. I also see Thais in new Toyota saloons, 4WD’s etc. They don't drive that much better. I'm talking about driving safely here, not the ability to weave in and out of traffic, which they are quite good at. There is a big difference. I am assuming that the driver of the expensive car is probably well educated having attained a level of prosperity. This is what my 'assumptions' are based on. Maybe you need to become more open to criticism. How can you deny the atrocious nature of the Thai driver? Have you ever witnessed safe, organized driving in a country outside Thailand?

[penzman]

While in Panama, a taxi driver was signing the cross after each red light he burned... I asked him if he was thanking God for keeping him safe or asking to be forgiven.

[Plus]

When I first came here I read that Thais wai every temple, with both hands, at every bend on expressways while driving at 100 km/h.

[zzap]

How can you deny the atrocious nature of the Thai driver? Have you ever witnessed safe, organized driving in a country outside Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I feel safer here than in the UK.

You say 'poor, uneducated' Thais don't drive safely, and the wealthier, more educated ones aren't much better??? Nonsense...

I don't share this point of view, there is no relation in my observation, though I have noticed more expensive cars seem to place more emphasis on not risking damage to their cars.

[richb2004]

How can you deny the atrocious nature of the Thai driver? Have you ever witnessed safe, organized driving in a country outside Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I feel safer here than in the UK.

You say 'poor, uneducated' Thais don't drive safely, and the wealthier, more educated ones aren't much better??? Nonsense...

I don't share this point of view, there is no relation in my observation, though I have noticed more expensive cars seem to place more emphasis on not risking damage to their cars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you'll find that statistically you are far safer in the UK. Could you explain just what aspect of driving in the UK is less safe than driving in Thailand?

[zzap]

My feeling safe is subjective. I find Thai drivers forgiving and accomodating.

Of course, this works both ways, after 8 years driving I know someone may pull into the street without looking, take a short-cut on the wrong side of the road, etc. be prepared and deal with it.

The driving style here just suits me better...

No red faces ready to explode, name-calling or vehicles trying to push me off the road for minor 'mistakes' on my part (as a motorcyclist).

And I do object to wild generalisations, like the 'poor, uneducated' have less concern for safety. Try dealing with reality, rather than constructing some wild theory to smooth the pain of not understanding...

[Butterfly]

My feeling safe is subjective. I find Thai drivers forgiving and accomodating.

...

The driving style here just suits me better...

No red faces ready to explode, name-calling or vehicles trying to push me off the road for minor 'mistakes' on my part (as a motorcyclist).

I have to agree with that. My feeling exactly. This is why I am starting to like my driving here. The only difference is that road rage could involve guns. Not good. But you are absolutely right for the rest.

[richb2004]

My feeling safe is subjective. I find Thai drivers forgiving and accomodating.

Of course, this works both ways, after 8 years driving I know someone may pull into the street without looking, take a short-cut on the wrong side of the road, etc. be prepared and deal with it.

The driving style here just suits me better...

No red faces ready to explode, name-calling or vehicles trying to push me off the road for minor 'mistakes' on my part (as a motorcyclist).

And I do object to wild generalisations, like the 'poor, uneducated' have less concern for safety. Try dealing with reality, rather than constructing some wild theory to smooth the pain of not understanding...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right, that for some people the ability to drive in a haphazard way and never be subjected to complaint is best. However I feel that it is this indifference to dangerous driving, and irresponsible actions in general, in Thailand that perpetuate the problem. If I beep my car horn at someone because they have just missed killing me it is seen as bad manners (I think). This will only result in lack of progress from the chaos that is currently the Thai driving system.

You’re also right that there are many hot headed drivers in the UK. In this case they probably should take on a little of the ‘mei ben rai’ Thai attitude. Personally my experiences of angry exchanges in the UK are very few, and I am not a particularly great driver

[pal78]

Thais must be doing something right because with all those security violations they have, you would expect a greater number of accidents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what you are saying, but 1,000,000 injuries and 15,000 deaths a year from road accidents is a GREAT number in my way of thinking. Well above what should be expected, or accepted.

I love Thailand, but the driving standards here are shameful. As several people have pointed out, if farangs aren't happy with things as they are here, we are free to make our way to the airport. I agree with this, and if I was unhappy with things to that extent I would leave. But is this the way it is here?

What if I am renting an apartment, and i go to the landlord to ask why the wiring is exposed and dangerous in the room, pointing out that someone could be killed... and the landlord snaps back and says "if you don't like the room you can leave!" He would have a point, but if he listened and put in the effort to fix the problem he would have a much easier job keeping his apartment full of happy people.

Thailand wants foreign investment, foreign educations (well at least certificates from foreign institutes), foreign language classes. Thailand wants to export to foreign countries, and benefit from the experience and assistance of foreign companies and governments on large scale development projects such as the underground and other mass transit systems.

As a Thai reading on the forum you might consider that you are reading the opinions of intolerant and nonsensical farangs who only came to Thailand to complain. But in some cases you might do well to listen. Investment decisions by multi-national companies are in part made based on infrastructure. And road conditions are not just about having nice surfaces on 6 lane highways.

I am not about to judge Thailand or the Thai people for their driving manners, but an individual who seems intent on defending Thai driving is demonstrating a larger problem. Pride is good until it blinds you to the truth. Thai roads are statistically the 6th most dangerous in the world.

People who ignore the problem are part of it! If you wish to ignore the problem, a start for you might be to stop reading on Thaivisa.

[richb2004]

I am not about to judge Thailand or the Thai people for their driving manners, but an individual who seems intent on defending Thai driving is demonstrating a larger problem. Pride is good until it blinds you to the truth. Thai roads are statistically the 6th most dangerous in the world.

People who ignore the problem are part of it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. Constructive criticism from ferang or outsiders should not be dismissed by patriotic Thaïs. In all aspects of life it often takes an outsider to spot the problems. Normally we don't instruct them to get out for raising such points. Improving the safe driving of Thais need not be an expensive task and would undoubtedly save lives. To deny this is simply blinkered.

[zzap]

I am not about to judge Thailand or the Thai people for their driving manners, but an individual who seems intent on defending Thai driving is demonstrating a larger problem. Pride is good until it blinds you to the truth. Thai roads are statistically the 6th most dangerous in the world.

People who ignore the problem are part of it! If you wish to ignore the problem, a start for you might be to stop reading on Thaivisa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yet you have just judged those who defend Thai driving standards.

Of course there is a lot of room for improvement, but after the chorus of voices ranting about Thai driving, some felt like saying something positive about it.

That's not the same as "ignoring the problem".

Learn to appreciate what's good about it, then the criticism would be much better received...

Btw, statistics have been mentioned a few times, I haven't been able to find any to compare Thailand with, f.e. the UK. Any links, please?

[Plus+]

I'm not sure about 6th in the world - there's India and Bangladesh that I witnesses personally, and then there's Africa. I don't believe that Thailand is 6th from the bottom.

I guess it feels great to be better than Zimbabwe but it isn't the first world by any means yet, not "even best of Asia" list.

It looks like there's correlation between general level of development and driving culture.

[pal78]

I am not about to judge Thailand or the Thai people for their driving manners, but an individual who seems intent on defending Thai driving is demonstrating a larger problem. Pride is good until it blinds you to the truth. Thai roads are statistically the 6th most dangerous in the world.

People who ignore the problem are part of it! If you wish to ignore the problem, a start for you might be to stop reading on Thaivisa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yet you have just judged those who defend Thai driving standards.

Of course there is a lot of room for improvement, but after the chorus of voices ranting about Thai driving, some felt like saying something positive about it.

That's not the same as "ignoring the problem".

Learn to appreciate what's good about it, then the criticism would be much better received...

Btw, statistics have been mentioned a few times, I haven't been able to find any to compare Thailand with, f.e. the UK. Any links, please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think I've been judging anyone. The same way I believe you are not judging me. I'm just asserting my opinion based on the facts in front of me. Tell me where the judgement is in that, and I'll withdraw it. It's not exactly a judgement to say it's a problem for people to ignore a problem is it?

There are many sources of these statistics, and although there isn't a single chart that puts the UK and Thailand together that I could find, it is possible to find one without Thailand included, and then based on Thai data find a place for Thailand on the list. 6th most dangerous was mentioned in the news articles covering the story when the death penalty was given to a Thai man for a driving offenses.

Also, stats were discussed before here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...pic=52475&st=15

Another interesting article if you are interested and have the time (no pun intended), this one talks about Asia in general but mentions Thailand. (WHO called Thailand 6th deadliest in the world):

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/pri...-674826,00.html

I'm all for being positivity, don't get me wrong. But we also need to be realistic in our positiveness. Suggesting that we "feel" safer driving in Thailand than in the UK is misleading and baseless.

[zzap]

Thanks for the links, I didn't realise Thailand is that bad!

Still, feeling safe is a different issue from countrywide annual statistics.

As I said, the driving style is compatible to my own, and I move around more confidently here.

[jayenram]

My terrible experience yesterday:

Driving between Surin and Prassat on the 214 we noticed at least 6 ambulances heading in the opposite direction, all lights ablaze. It wasn't long before we came across the accident. As we passed, the FG saw that it was a collision between a passenger vehicle and a large truck. The interior of the passenger vehicle was burnt out.

FG asked "why would the interior burn out, what would cause it?"

I replied that it was likely a petrol (gas) powered car and the petrol tank had fractured. I explained that it was extremely unusual for diesel to ignite under such circumstances.

On our return journey, we passed on the opposite side of the accident and she confirmed that the passenger vehicle was a pick-up. "So why did it explode?" she asked. I hadn't a clue.

Later that day, the accident report was on the local television news and the following story was told:

A family of 11 people were travelling from an Issaan village returning to Bangkok after the New Year. They were indeed in an old pick-up. The pick-up hit a truck (no details of the reason) and the cab of the pick-up exploded. 5 of the occupants were killed outright and the other 6 are in serious condition in hospital.

The reason for the explosion was given that the occupants were carrying 12 litres of petrol (gas) in the cab, as the price of petrol in Surin is cheaper than in Bangkok (they had apparently decided). I can only assume that the petrol was being transported in plastic containers.

The result was a minimum of 5 fatalities for a potential saving of about 60 satang.

Where is the sense?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

There isn't a shred of sense. So sad.

[toptuan]

I dont really have much problem with Thai drivers, actually the driving is quite prebictable here after a while. Trying to enforce the same rules and standerds as your home country here will just not work, you've just got to adapt to the driving style here. The thing is most of the driving laws are very simular to most western countries , they are just seldom enforced

RC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree also. Good point. Since I toodle around on just an insignificant, little, low-life motorbike, I remember only a couple basic rules:

1) The bigger the vehicle, the more rights. (Exception--Mercedes Benz--they always have the same rights as the 18-wheeler trucks--money does talk). As a motor-biker, I just assume I have no rights and no right-of-way privileges. Passing buses and trucks can literally blow you right off the pavement by passing within millimeters of your little putt-putt. Mai pen rai. It just goes with the territory. When I drive defensively like the lowest level of the foodchain that I am, no problems.

2) The second main rule is: Don't let any thing detain you or slow you down--circumvent it in any zany, imaginative way possible (overtaking with oncoming traffic facing you, turning a two-lane highway into four improvised lanes, or, just hit the accelerator pedal and watch everyone scatter, etc.). We've got dump truck drivers that careen wildly, at 100kph or better, through crowds of student motorbikers on small business-district roads in a university town. Sure, they take out a few co-eds now and then, but hey, TIT. While I personally don't follow this rule, I just assume the other guy will. Therefore I tend to be more prepared for a wild, insane move on the other guy's part.

I realize I'm not going to change the system. Also, I plan on living here for a very long time (or dying soon in a traffic accident). So, to delude myself into a long-term, peaceful state of mind, I think of the Thai driving style as "creative."** They really are.

-----------------------------------------------------

**A couple years ago, I was in the back of a songthaow on a main two-lane highway north of Sisaket. Our songthaow started to overtake a tuk-tuk which was taking up half the shoulder and part of our lane. At the same time, a bus started to overtake our songtaow on the right (using the oncoming lane, of course). Unbelievably, a SECOND bus started to overtake the first bus, our songthaow, and the tuk tuk (using the opposite shoulder).

Got the picture? You've got four vehicles all going the same way down a two-lane highway, with three of them overtaking the others. Ah, but one more little complication catapults this story into the "incredible" category: A oncoming dump truck was barreling toward all of us, lights flashing (which, I understand means in Thailand, "I'm not stopping, so MAKE WAY!")

I closed my eyes and said my last prayers. (Consisting of one word: "Help!") In that split second, everyone threaded their way through everyone else. A few lights flashed, but nary a horn-honk. Creative. Definitely creative.

Edited January 6, 2006 by toptuan

[jbowman1993]